BS: America commits war crimes.

Subject: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:33 AM

Just seen this on ITV [Independent Television News], they should footage of american marines shooting dead an unarmed civillian in a Mosque.
On the same piece of footage, a young Iraq man is seen with gunshot wounds to his leg, he says "I gave you information about the insurgents yesterday, then you shot me", he was also unarmed.
I wonder how many of the so called insurgents were unarmed civilans?

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:46 AM

Sir jOhn - I'd say there is so much disrespect for the Muslims of Iraq that the most the U.S. will do in Falluja is a body count (if that).

d

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: LadyJean
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:50 AM

Sir John, I've been sitting in my home, the beaver colony (One dam thing after another.)   I did not commit a war crime. I did not vote for Bush. I do not support the war in Iraq. I did hear about the marine shooting an unarmed civilian on the six o'clock news, and I'm hoping my government will punish him. I may drop my congressman a line and insist that something be done. Do not blame a whole country for the actions of a few.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:56 AM

ok point taken, this thread should have been called
American Soldiers commit war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:09 AM

One American Military genius reckons that "there are no civilians in Fallija" [!!!!] The puppet "prime minister" says there are "no civilian casualties". So the "christian" right mudheads who voted to perpetuate the slaughter can face their "god" in the morning after all.
   If SCORES of civilian dead is not a conservative estimate, I'd be very surprised. "Dead insurgents" probably include men, and women, AND children.
   There is one inescapable fact, and that is no matter what view you take of those fighters in Iraq, their heroism cannot be denied. Their cause may be flawed, and bringing death and destruction to innocents around them, but they are not the ones wielding the heavy stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:39 AM

"Dead insurgents" is soon to become an oxymoron.


As to answering your question, jOhn, "I wonder how many of the so called insurgents were unarmed civilans?"

As in most wars, we'll never know.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:40 AM

Some of the civilians that aren't there........ anymore

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Dead Horse
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:53 AM

American soldiers commit war crimes.
Don't we all?
Or do you stick to the rules when your buddy has just been blown up!
I will admit to thinking that the more gung-ho a unit is, the more they are likely to see no wrong in their actions.
There is absolutely no nation more gung-ho than the Americans.........
(Read that back to me. Yes, as I feared, confused thoughts from an often
confused & frustrated ex-squaddie who deep in his heart knows it's all gone to shit in a hand cart)

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 06:24 AM

No doubt soldiers who are foolish enough to do things like that in front of news cameras will be punished. Or at least, proceedings of some kind exploring whether they should be charged will be started, and will continue at least as long as there is media attention.

But whoever was responsible for letting a news camera get anywhere near this will be in serious trouble. "Embedding" journalists is supposed to make sure that kind of picture doesn't get into the media.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:03 AM

Kendall here. Why do you think Bush doesn't want anything to do with the World Court?

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:15 AM

there's an article on that topic here, Kendall


Attacks against World Court by Bush, Kerry and Congress Reveals Growing Bipartis

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Davetnova
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:11 AM

According to the news Americans don't commit war crimes. The soldier will apparently, if the evidence warrants it, be tried as an individual for murder, not as a soldier for war crimes. Americans don't do war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Stu
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:34 AM

If he hadn't been caught on camera, he would have got a way with it.

This must happen all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:39 AM

There is a court at the Hague which has apparently been defined, by those who have signed on to a particular international agreement, as the one and only place where war crimes may be tried. The present US political administration, rightly or wrongly, has chosen not to participate in the activities of this tribunal. That being said, would anyone care to define "war crime?" Are all crimes committed during a war war crimes, or does it require some violent act by a member of the military? Are individual, ad hoc, acts of violence included or is some sort of concerted effort or conspiracy required? Can, or should, all violent crimes committed during a military conflict be referred to this tribunal?

The incident in question, and there should be no doubt that it, if accurately reported, was a crime, was committed by a young man who apparently shot a wounded Iraqi. This same young man saw a comrade killed the previous day by a wounded Iraqi concealing a weapon. Is this justification? Of course not. Is this the policy of the US military command? Of course not.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:05 AM

what is a war crime

US the first to try and define war crimes?

yet another definition of war crime

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:22 AM

The "unarmed civilian" was at a window where he had been sniping at the Coalition soldiers. He may or may have not been dead at the time but he was definately not a civilian.

There were two of them there at the window one of them was definately dead.

The whole incident is based on what Kevin Sites said.

You anti-war wimps are so anxious for the US to lose you are pissing in your pants every time you hear something that can be spun against the US.

All you need is a terrorist attack in your neighborhood and you will be cheering every time someone shoots a terrorist.


International law experts in the Middle East have expressed fury at the incident which, they said, is a flagrant violation on Geneva Convention on the treatment of war prisoners. Where is the fury when a terrorist kidnaps and beheads a preisoner? When will the Geneva Convention apply to terrorisim?

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:22 AM

Actually the Mosque was involved in a battle the day before. Five insurgents were left behind for another unit to pick up and transport to a medical facility. They apparently did not get picked up and re-engaged the Marines the next day. There was another battle and several of the insurgents were shot a second time as part of that assault. It was during the second assault the Iraqi was allegedly shot by the Marine.

If the insurgents did re-engage the Marines on that day the Iraqi was not a civilian or POW but an active combatant and well within the scope of being killed. There will be an investigation and a trial.

No one here was there. Nor is anyone here a judge. Might want to wait until the facts emerge before blaming an entire country for one individual's actions.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:34 AM

I don't have enough evidence to either comment OR judge.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Davetnova
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:43 AM

Guest US - We had terrorists in this neck of the woods for several years, I believe many Americans gave money to support them.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Dead Horse
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:44 AM

What is the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter?
The Iraqi irregulars are fighting for what they believe is freedom, and the allies are waging a war of "shock & awe".
Aint that terror?
My brain, as always, is in neutral. BG.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:49 AM

GUEST-US-He was not at a window, he was lying injured on the floor of a mosque, i saw the footage myself on the 6AM news this morning.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:50 AM

If you look at the headlines most of them say that the matter is being investigated. The minority ot these headlines pass judgement and say that the soldier is guilty of shooting an un armed civilian POW.

Kevin Sites is a freelance solo journalist currently on assignment for
NBC News in Iraq. He worked for CNN at one time but he violated his contract wirh CNN in that he has a Blog.

Ironicaly, he owns "Shoot First Films".

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:53 AM

waht you on about, stupid?

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Davetnova
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:56 AM

I think many of us misunderstood when we were asked to support the War On Terrorism. I for one thought they wanted us on America's side but that would be fighting for terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:02 AM

using the term war crime puts it on another level - its all wrong there, that guy just got caught in front of the camera. Its all a tragedy and there is brutality on both sides.

Ultimately the people responsible are the people like George Bush, who has never seen combat, never risked his life, and is not in the war zone. The politicians are the criminals, the soldiers are there because they have been sent by their country.

Whatever is happening, those soldiers are in the frontline. War sends everyone mad. their judgement, their responses, are instantaneous, and they are a war zone. But they must not be made scapegoats for the decisions of their leaders to use them in a war.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:05 AM

FU:

Ditto Somalia.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:52 AM

was not at a window

There were two of them lying in front of windows.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 12:18 PM

So we are expected to believe that a bunch of these unsurgents were shot and wounded and and captured by a US unit, who left them lying there with their weapons, and the next day they started using those weapons again, so another unit came in and shot them dead? And this is from an army that vastly outnumbered and outgunned the insurgents?

That is really convincing and really impressive.

But I preduct that after a day or sed it'll slide out of public attention, and we'll never get to hear the end of it. Remember that wedding party that apparently got slaughtered in Iraq a few months back? The media turned its atttention away, and the story just disappeared.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 12:49 PM

Actually, Sites was pretty clear what happened; I saw him on MSNBC yesterday. The man WAS unarmed. He was not confirmed to be a civilian. It appeared to the US forces at though he was an insurgent wounded the previous day and left in the mosque overnight. There was not really another "battle" at the mosque; the US forces simply came back. According to Sites it wasn't all that clear why they went there.

Just before the unarmed man was shot, one of the US soldiers (couldn't tell if it was the one who shot him) accused him loudly of "playing dead." Apparently, the kid was afraid that the wounded man had a gun, and was pretending to be dead/wounded so he could either shoot the American troops when they weren't expecting it, or get away. (Odd that he had been left there unattended overnight and then shot for allegedly "playing dead.")

The NBC military advisor, a retired Marine Colonel, said that he thought it was pretty clearly a "war crime," but that investigations would determine what appropriate punishment would be. Unless the insurgent is found to have been armed after all, this incident would clearly violate the third Geneva convention, which states that unarmed combatants and those placed out of combat by wounds must be treated humanely.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: DougR
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 12:57 PM

No, John, there was no call for this thread at all, unless the purpose was to invite fellow catters to participate in one of their favorite pastimes:bashing America.

We all read newspapers, many of us watch television and listen to the radio. Some of us even read the news via the Internet. Posting a news story that anyone who keeps up with the news at all will have already seen, makes no sense at all to me. Unless, of course, my first paragraph is correct.

Example: From today's Arizona Republic, "CUBA PERFORMERS SEE U.S. ASYLUM." Is that story NEWS to anyone here? Perhaps I should have started a thread with it. Gimme a break.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:36 PM

I can't see that a bunch of perfomers deciding that they'd be better off performing on a bigger stage, so to speak, is a particularly significant story.

This one is, because this is claimed to be a war against terrorism, and killimg unarmed prioners is terrorism, whether its done by shooting them or beheading them.

If a soldier shooting unarmed prisoners happens to get spotted by a news camera, to ask people to accept that this is the only such incident which happened, and it so chanced that a camera was there to record it, is asking rather a lot.

In any case, an army has a duty to take charge of prisoners, and if they are wounded to ensure they are treated, not to leave them lying around. To fail to do so, withiout very goods reasons, is itself a war crime.

That kind of thing might happen in a situation where the forces on the ground are very evenly matched, and no one can be spared to deal with prisoners, but that wasn't this kind of fight. If we are to believe what we have been told, there were perhaps 2,000 insurgents, and 15,000 or more US and Iraqi Army.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:24 PM

Doug R, I'm afraid if the 'tin hat' fits....

If 'America' gets bashed, its because someone sees its fit for bashing, though regrettably, even people who very laudably declare "Not in my name" will get lumped in with those who seem to believe "My Country, right or wrong".

Sad to say, it seems apparent to me, from this, & other postings on the 'Cat, that you are one of the latter.

Having said that, you seem prone to flaming anyone who brings up a topic you dont feel like discussing anyway....whether its about this 'war' or not.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:34 PM

"In his report accompanying the images, Sites said that one of the Marines noticed that one of the wounded men was still breathing before shouting that he was "faking it".

"The Marine then raises his rifle and fires into the man's head. The pictures are too graphic for us to broadcast," said Sites. He added: "The prisoner did not appear to be armed or threatening in any way". Major Doug Powell, a spokesman for the Marine Corps in Washington, told The Independent: "It's being investigated - I can't say much more than that. It's being investigated for possible law of war violations. A naval criminal investigation team is looking into it."

"The footage - some of the first to show the situation inside Fallujah and the bloody nature of the street-by-street battle that has taken place there - is the latest to emerge from Iraq to contain possible evidence of war crimes perpetrated by the US military.
"Other footage has shown troops shooting wounded fighters lying in open ground as well as attacks on Iraqis - some said to be civilians - by US aircraft and helicopters. This latest footage is among the most shocking given that it apparently shows without obstruction the Marine shooting the prisoner in the head at close range.

"Kathy Kelly, a spokeswoman for the peace group Voices in the Wilderness, said last night that such images would "recruit more terrorists faster than they are being killed".

Article

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:43 PM

And now Margaret Hassan is dead. Butched in front of a video camera. Someone who spent 30 years of her life helping the poorest of the poor. Where's the indignation over that one? Who's court will those animals be tried in?

Yep - let's beat up America over one incident and ignore why America is there. Mr. McGrath - I imagine that you are a good guy but your attitude really sucks at times. You're on an American web site where the freedom of speech is guaranteed and sniveling about things you really don't know a lot about. Nor have you, to my knowledge, done anything to ensure that the freedom of speech continues.

So go belabor your point. Lots of folks have done a lot to ensure that freedom is here. Enjoy it lad - we earned it for you.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Chris Green
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:49 PM

I'm indignant about Margaret Hassan. I'm also indignant about the poor sod who was obviously severely wounded and was shot in cold blood. Both are thoroughly repellent acts. Both, in an ideal world would be punished by international law. However, since neither side in this conflict have any respect for international law, it would appear that this is unfortunately likely to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: DougR
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM

McGrath and Guest: you both miss my point. I do not condone what the Marine is reported to have done. If he is tried and found guilty, he should be punished.

My point is, it is NOT news, though John posted it as such. Anyone with a radio or TV knew about it.

The inference that the whole country is guilty because of the prossible guilt of one person, however, is pretty far-fetched.

Guest: damn right I'm proud of my country and I'm not ashamed of it. If it is such a terrible country,why didn't the Cuban dance troup seek asylum in Russia, Great Britian, France, Germany or some country? Why is the waiting list so long to immigrate to get the U. S.?
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:10 PM

Norton, please read what I said to Doug R [Yes, same 'Guest'] & add to it an acusation of a somewhat.....slanted view of History on your part. Youre not the only one, of course....we have heard the fallacious remark that "you Limeys would all be talking in German but for our guys" way too many times, from all sorts of people, some of whom should know better.

McGrath does go on a bit, but I do agree with quite a few of the things he says here, though far from all.

My sympathies are with the families of all the victims of murder today & recent days.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:21 PM

Doug, believe me, no way do I believe you were condoning it in the slightest.

I dont even believe 'Guest, Uncle Sam' does....though he seems dysfunctional enough to pretend so.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:31 PM

Peers Defend Comrade


Steve, it always mystifies me when people assume that others don't have an opinion or don't share the common emotion just because of their silence. There is such a thing as an appalled silence, you know. we all feel the same as you do about Margaret Hassan's capture and purported death. We are human beings and all of us feel punched in the gut.

I imagine that the reason we don't rail against the insurgents and do about the 'Coalition' when they each commit crimes is that we have a personal stake in our own people. We know that we cannot affect what the insurgents do. We may be able to affect our own countrymen's future.

The fact remains that we are there. Just what is our objective? Just what will signify victory for us?

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:37 PM

Steve Norton uses the usual fallacious argument. You are incensed that X has committed a crime. But Y, who may or may not have some association with the victim of X's crime, has also committed a crime. You should pay attention to Y's crime rather than X's crime!

Why, Steve? Why should we be more incensed about one innocent person murdered than another? If Sir jOhn says he is incensed about Margaret Hassan (which of course he is), will you get incensed about this?

I thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:37 PM

No Doug, I wasn't saying you condoned what that Marine appears to have done. I'm quite sure you are horrified at what appears to have happened, and would have done everything you could to stop that kind of thing happening if you had been in the spot.

We might disagree as to whether to see it as a one-off aberration by a particular individual, which I think you would, or an instance caught on camera of something that is probably a lot more widespread, and reflects a particular style of military training, which is what I would be more likely to suspect. But we'd agree that it is something that shouldn't happen, and that is an important thing to agree about, because there are some people who really think that kind of thing doesn't matter.

And no one is saying that it's just the Americans. Clearly there are some people on the other side who are capable of just about anything. But when a war is proclaimed as "a war on terrorism" that implies a promise that terrorist methods will not be used in waging it.

As for "The inference that the whole country is guilty", John of Hull who started the thread later posted saying that he shouldn't have given it that title, which suggested he was saying all Americans did such things, because he wasn't menaing that.

I doubt that John saw starting the tread as a way of giving news, but rather of wanting to talk about some item of news that had worried him, the way you do with friends.
.....................................................
As to why that dance group decided America was the place to go, or rather, stay, well it's surely the place with the biggest number of Cubans in the world, other than Cuba itself, so where else would they want to go? It does seem more like show business than anything.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 03:42 PM

Ebbie, interesting link. The peers, by the way, do not argue that he didn't violate the law, but rather that either the law is wrong or there were extenuating circumstances. The extenuating circumstances involved are battle stress, which I think is pretty valid.

Another comrade says "I would have done it too, becuase you can't trust these insurgents," a suggestion that the law of war isn't a perfect tool for situations like this. That's a little shakier, but still has some validity.

So I think the guy will be investigated and probably punished. Probably extenuating circumstances (he had just been shot himself the previous day) will be taken into account and he will be treated leniently.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 05:04 PM

I don't blame a kid who has been trained, equipped and sent to kill - in a place where he might be killed at any moment - doing whatever killing he or she thinks is necessary to live through that hell and make it home alive.

But I sure as shit blame the fuckers who sent him or here there, and put him or her in that awful situation based on a lie, or greed, or the word of their God, or just plain stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 05:16 PM

And the other question is, how were wounded prisoners (they had been disarmed by the previous unit it appears) left unguarded and uncared for? There is an obligation to look after people once they have surrendered.

I would think the soldier who did the killing will claim that, since they weren't in any kind of military custody, he was entitled to think they were still hostile. And that could be quite a good defence.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 05:24 PM

I do not condone what the Marine did. If he indeed did what is purported. I just figured he needed an investigation by the authorities and the courtesy of a trial before he was shot.

And as far as my inference on freedom being attributed to the English and our fighting with them against Germany. Wrong war Mr. McGrath. I was talking about the one where we threw the British out of here so we could be free. I have no investment in your freedom, except as it pertains to here.

And as a former Marine I can tell you that in my experience and the experiences of the Marines I know serving in Iraq today, it is an isolated incident. And if, if I say again, he did this he will spend a lot of time in a federal prison. Just like the jerks who did things like this in other wars. If this Marine shot a prisoner he dishonors his country, his Corps, and me personally. If he did this he will be put away. And that is the concensus of every combat Marine I know.

We, as Marines, are incensed by this and I never inferred that I was looking the other way. I was inferring that there is always a thread or two about how bad we Americans are - but where are the other threads? Silent apathy is still that - apathy. War like behavior needs to be changed. But until it is we, Americans, will deal with our abherrent people with justice and not perenial inferences of guilt from any one individual or country.

That's my opinion - add artbrooks to it and it makes for a very nice day! I've no bone with anyone here - just to clarify that I'm not trolling or trying to start a fight - I'm simply presenting another point of view.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 06:16 PM

'Appalled' does NOT equate to 'apathy', Steve. But I do understand what you are saying.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 06:26 PM

But the real question, as I see it is the one i raised last time - why weren't these wounded prisoners being treated the way prisoners are bing supposed to be treated? Rather than being left around for what could even have been a tragic misundersanding by a squaddie thinking in terms of booby traps and so forth.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 06:30 PM

From all reports, they were wounded and given immediate first aid by a group of fast-moving troops. Who knows...maybe the ones who left them there intended to go back but were all killed around the next corner. Shit happens.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 06:56 PM

True - but that the first question that any inquiry should be looking into. An army with an overwhelming superiority in numbers really ought be able to be able to cope with prisoners without too much difficulty.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:06 PM

I was talking about the one where we threw the British out of here so we could be free.

An overly simplistic (one might say simple-minded)and naive view of the realities of the American Revolution.

"We" WERE "the British"- among other things.

You may or may not know about the Marines, but you sure as hell don't know history.