BS: America commits war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 06:37 PM

And the underlying truth always is that none of this would be happening if there hadn't been an invasion of Iraq by the USA and a handful of allies. Iraq, however deeply unpleasant it's government was, had nothing whatsoever to do with any attacks on the people who attacked her.

And elections to set up a new Iraqi givernment could have been held months ago, but were delayed, for what appear to have been domestic US political motives, allowing opposition to the occupation to be diverted into insurgency, and permitting people who are genuine international terrorists to get a foothold, and to use it to recruit and win support from people who, in normal circumnstances, would find their agenda laughable and repulsive.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 07:37 PM

"And they are NOT insurgents over there in Iraq, they are Muslim terrorists from all over the Muslim world."

according to a report in the LA Times, the american authorities determined that out of over 1000 prisoners from the falluja battle, 15 were from outside iraq. that's FIFTEEN out of one thousand. this is a figure reported by the american authorities. doesn't that give the lie to the idea that all these fighters are imported?

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 07:53 PM

There are reports that in the week leading up to the assult on Falluja that Iragi men of fighting age weren't allowed to leave. The women, elderly and children were. Like what was that about? Now, if yer a man you are turned back to the killing fields...

Think about this for a minute...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 08:32 PM

on CBC radio's As it Happens last night, a marine commander
was interviewed and said that he actually hadnt seen any wounded Iraqis - they were all dead (when asked about how the wounded Iraqi insurgents are being treated)

When asked whether this meant a 'take no prisoner' policy he explained that theyre just more willing to die..

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 10:00 PM

Ake:

You are correct about that remark to me; just that I see terrorism as something separate. I guess I can explain it like this: If the spin-off benefit of a barrage or bomb run (etc) is terror in the civilian population, that's a good thing. But I don't call that specifically terrorism. Just the bonus ya get with explosives that don't really care who they kill.

Terrorists set out to target civilians to generate the terror they do.

I realize this is hair-splitting, and I certainly don't think either is a good thing. But I do think they are both different things. Maybe like the state killing someone the state has decided needs capital punishment as opposed to a lone individual deciding a person needs to be killed--then doing it. They are both murder, but one is and one isn't called that.

(Trust you're doing well, my friend.)

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 10:29 PM

I'll take Macho trigger happy shoot first and ask questions later men over liberal elite scaredy cat crybaby girlie men like you terrorist sympathizers any day.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 10:39 PM

In what unit are you, Uncle Sam?

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 10:50 PM

Yo Unc,

Like if it were the Iraqis who had the big military machine and it was the Iraqis who were gettin' ready to take yer home town and you decided that you didn't have no beeef with the Iraqis and you wanted to take yer family outta yer home town before the Iraqis killed everything livin' in it and you got to the outskirts of town with yer family with everything you have worked a life time to own an' an Iraqi said to you, "Your wife and kids can cross... but you gotta go back and face the music".... Like how would you feel?

Think this is hypothetical?

Think again...

Most of the folks that your military has killed in Itaq were folks purdy much like yourself...

Wow....

Think about it, Uncle Sam, think about it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 10:53 PM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 11:04 PM

sorry, cross posted Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 01:31 AM

Let's get some thing straight here! Those on this thread who are throwing taunts at "those who aren't bitching about Margaret Hassan" ALL were "bitching" [even some of the Bushites] from the day the news broke of her abduction. Even the character who claims to have organised the resistance in Falluja disclaimed any part in her kidnapping, and claimed that no Muslim should deliberately do harm to any woman or child. That this good woman's murder is an abominable eventuality is agreed by all. What is truly tragic is the fact that this can be used by brainless [and probably gutless] characters who wish to score some kind of point over anti-war people. That such things occurred in Iraq BEFORE the "coalition of the willing" began to ravage the countyside may be true , once every other year, say. But there is NO doubt just what has given these murderers the opportunity to give vent to their evil urges. Do I need to draw a picture?

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 09:40 AM

I agree completely about Zarqawi, Ake.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: RichM
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 01:13 PM

As the practice of war continued to develop in the 20th century, it's obvious that targetting of civilians became standard practice.
War was no longer a formal contest between elite professional units.

Everyone on or near the battlefield now is a potential targets.

Some good friends claim that crimes committed by soldiers should be hidden or minimized, lest it give comfort to the enemy.

IMO, acknowledging,examining such disputed events should be the rule. Make sure that soldiers follow these rules.

On the other hand, if the rules of engagement are a hindrance, then stand up for your beliefs, and push to change the rules.

Otherwise, you condone great damage to whatever ethics you and your society claim to believe in.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 03:50 PM

McGrath is right.   None of this would be happening if the USA had not invaded Iraq.   Sadaam would still be in charge murdering and raping hundreds of thousands of people.    Iraq scientists would still be working on developing WMD's and selling them to terrorists. (as reported in David Kay report) Iraq woman would have no rights.   Everyone would still be living in fear.   Sadaam would still be stealing billions from the Oil for Food program and building new palaces and statues while his people starve.   In short, Iraq would be a utopia with little children flying kites in the streets.   I know this from watching the Michale Moore film.

I guess some of us americans think differently.   Maybe because we don't set limits on people.   I understand that Prince Charlley said that people in England should understand their limitations and realize that they can't all be successfull or have wonderful carreers.   Now I understand why people in Great Britain have dilutions of mediocrity.   It all starts from the top.   If Charley is the best you got, mediocrity is a pretty good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 03:58 PM

Larry:

At your age you should know better.

1) Saddam is no longer ruling in Iraq.
2) The WMDs are not there.
3) The US and its allies are still there.

Was gibst?

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:24 PM

"Sadaam would still be in charge murdering and raping hundreds of thousands of people."

Yes, didn't you know Saddam was raping hundreds of thousands of people?

This is the sort of silly comment that people make when they have ceased to apply any reason to a situation.

BTW, Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians ONLY if by "murdered" you mean that his policies, his military and security personnel killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians. By this definition of "murder," there are probably only two living heads of state of whom it could be said that they murdered over 100,000 Iraqi civilians. One is Saddam. The other is George W. Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:46 PM

Oh, if only the United States of America had "dilutions of mediocrity. "

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:57 PM

Yeah, I rather have Saddam back in power and my country's attention turned back to the War on Terrorism. We're less safe now that the noecons have destabilized the entire Middle East...

And as fir the Saddam-was-a-bad-man-and-raped-and-killed-his-own-people blah, blah, blah, I am not at all comforted by the fact that now the US military is doing it for him...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:16 PM

Odd isn't it, that the most vocal of the Mudcat veterans here, choose not to tell us what their actual military/combat experience is that use to bludgeon people over the head with in these sorts of heated debates?

Why should anyone give their opinions any more credence than anyone else's? I mean, for all we know they could be a bunch of military wannabe types.

As to the difference between Marine murdering the wounded combatant, and the Hassan beheading, I would posit there is a difference of a few degrees only: one of the victims was a civilian and the other (presumably) chose to be a soldier in this war. But both of them, I'm sure, felt they were contributing to the welfare of the Iraqi people the best way they could.

Both killings are despicable. That is a no brainer. But from the looks of it, the Marine summarily executed a wounded prisoner of war, which is against all morality and reason, regardless of boobytrapped bodies. Hysteria of battle or not isn't a defense. That Marine knew from his training that booby trapped bodies are a reality of war, just like he knew from his training that executing wounded prisoners of war is against the Geneva conventions, and you can't rationalize that reality out of existence just because the other guy's army isn't a signatory. So that line of reasoning is irrelevant too.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:19 PM

Sorry, I meant to add that an execution is an execution, whether it is a beheading for the Al Jazeera cameras or executing a wounded, dying man by blowing off his head at very close range for the NBC cameras.

There is no difference in the barbarity of the acts. None. Both are barbaric executions of defenseless human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:25 PM

I'll take Macho trigger happy shoot first and ask questions later men over liberal elite scaredy cat crybaby girlie men...

That is precisely the way in which terrorists think, I'm afraid. I am quite sure that Timothy McVeigh would have wholly agreed with those words.

As for Saddam - he was an evil man, and the most evil things he did were done while he was a valued friend of the USA, supported to the hilt. By the time of the invasion he was greatly weakened and vulnerable. With a massive army poised to invade, his rule was crumbling, he was accepting a whole string of concessions. There seems very good reason to believe that he could have been brought to make a deal that removed him from power, before too long. It would have required patience and determination.

There was no valid military reason whatsoever for launching the invasion at the it was launched. The military build-up was not yet complete even. The only apparent reason for launching the attack at that time, rather than wait anither six months or even a year was that this would have meant problems with Bush's re-election plans. That is not in itself an acceptable reason for killing thousands of people, and for launching a war without any clear understanding of what was entailed, and without any clearly thought-out exit strategy.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: mg
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:44 PM

They have so much respect for the Muslims and other religions of Fallujah that they are freeing them at the cost of their own lives. Fifty one of them. Maybe they got it wrong. But their intentions are exactly that. And how do the wise ones of the world know who is unarmed and armed in a split second? You gotta be smarter than me for sure, but then most of you think you are. mg

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:53 PM

Judging by the pictures that have come out. the Marine was well aware that the wounded man was NOT boobytrapped. Had he been and killed at such close range, the resulting explosion would in all likelhood have taken out the Marines standing in the area.

In the same way I will always believe that our government knew very well that Saddam did NOT have WMD or they would not have invaded. They knew Korea and Iran did have weapons that could have been used against us - and they didn't go there.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 09:11 PM

Mary,

I do NOT think anyone here is supporting Muslims per se. People seem to be saying that the US ought to get the heck out--and others are saying it has no right to be there, that's all. The thread title is that "America commits war crimes." Yes, America does. All countries do in war. ALL countries. Saying America doesn't is tripe. Wars that Canada has been in have resulted in crimes, and those crimes have been committed by my countrymen. In this case, YOUR countryman committed a crime. Iraqis have committed them too. War allows that to happen.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:24 AM

I forgot candy ass.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:25 AM

No you didn't forget 'candy ass'. You just posted.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:35 AM

For what it's worth, GUEST 18 Nov 04 - 08:16 PM, it's because I can see a setup fairly easily. I know you think you are smarter than us simpletons, but I will choose what I am going to share and with who. And this is more of your "I am not going to respond" but still respond stuff.

I will be watching this case very closely, because I do agree with GUEST on one issue. Killing defenseless people, whether they were combatants or not, is not what honorable warriors do. When this type of thing is done, it completely blows the "moral superiority" angle that the administration tries to take. Events like this, or Abu Ghraib, only lend credence to the arguments against our actions.

Having said that, I will withhold judgement until all the facts are presented. This young man is going through experiences that idealistic Quixote's like GUEST have no frame of reference to understand.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:27 AM

"And how do the wise ones of the world know who is unarmed and armed in a split second?"

You don't. That is the very nature of combat, and that is why soldiers train. And they ARE NOT trained to do what that Marine appears to have done, which is to summarily execute a defenseless human being.

That said, we also know that there is a military double standard that says "fuck the rules" and that allows atrocities to occur fairly often, anytime the military is engaged in combat, anywhere in the world. Especially military and paramilitary organizations that know you can usually get away with committing atrocities. Every soldier who engages in committing atrocities knows they might be caught, but that it is highly unlikely that they will be, or if they are caught, that there will be any negative consequences for them.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:40 AM

The Insurgents are cutting people's heads off for god's sake! We have to fight fire with fire. If I had been that young marine I would have shot the bugger from 50yards away!

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:03 PM

The insurgents have to resort to that sort of tactic, they don't have any jet fighters, helicopters, tanks, etc etc to fight back with, super ted.

This was never going to be a fair fight, because you have the most powerful military in the world beating up on a third world paramilitary fighting an occupation of their country.

How exactly is beheading people one at a time (which certainly keeps the casualty numbers down) more barbaric than bombing an entire nation into oblivion?

It is because of attitudes like yours, super ted, and mary garvey's, that we need the Geneva conventions, and to police the military.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:26 PM

Another thing Larry K - You are confusing Iraq with Afghanistan when you talk about "Iraqi women having no rights". But, as a probable Fox News viewer, it is understandable that you would conflate the two.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:50 PM

Nerd: if those thousands of dead Iraqis dug up from the mass graves discovered by coalition troops in Iraq were not placed their by Saddam and his policies, who killed and buried them? They were killed long before there was an invasion of Iraq!

And Bobert, you claim to care for human life but assert that you wish things were as they were in Iraq before the invasion. Anything hypocritic about that statement? Hmmmm?

Larry K: good post.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:58 PM

Gee Larry - We don't know who the people in the mass graves were and we don't know who killed them. As a matter of fact, we don't even know how long they were there. Do you have any credible references?

For all I know, they may have been killed during the first Gulf War.

d

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:11 PM

Well, we know one thing for sure, and that is the US has taken over the job of butchering Iraqis for Saddam...I'd say the US has done a great job of catching up w/Saddam in the senseless slaughter department since March 2003.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:08 PM

"We have to fight fire with fire." As Osama Bin-Ladin would no doubt say.

Actually what does that metaphor mean in this kind of war? "We must kill the people who might be recruited by the enemy, before they can join the enemy"? - because that is how, in a firefighting situaton, you do actually "use fire to fight fire". I don't really think it is an applicable metaphor for any would-be civilised fighting force.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:58 PM

Yeah, Dougie, I do care for human life and there nothin' hypocritical about havin' quite a lot of resentment fir Bush wastin' over 100,000 of our fellow earthlings over oil and politics... Are going to tell me that Saddam would have killed 100,000 of his own countryman over the same amount of time since the beginning of the invasion? Hmmmmmm? I think maybe you need a session with the Wes Ginny Slide Rule.

Yeah, I am a humanitarian and Bush isn't. He let innocent folks be executed in Texas with tahe same little gleeful smirk that we see when he challenges folks to "bring it on" and kill and injure my   American brothers and sisters of the working class...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM

DougR,

You might want to read a post before you disagree with it in knee-jerk fashion. At 18 Nov 04 - 04:24 PM I agreed that Saddam HAD, in fact, murdered those people if you define murder as allowing them to be killed by your security forces. I then merely pointed out that there is another living head of state who ALSO has murdered over 100,000 Iraqi civilians, using the same definition of "murder." That head of state is George W. Bush.

The part of Larry's post I said was silly was the claim that Saddam had RAPED hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

Finally, there isn't really THAT much evidence as to who killed the people in the mass graves, and whether they were in part Gulf War I victims.

More importantly, it is likely that some of them were Kurds who George Bush I encouraged to rebel by suggesting he would back the rebellion. Then he screwed them royally by leaving them to their fate while continuing to aid Saddam. So I'm not sure those murders are free and clear of American influence, either.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:56 PM

Any attempts to present Saddam Hussain in a positive light or to justify the actions of the insurgents are utterly PATHETIC. That said, Mcgrath is completely correct in pointing out that none of this would have happened if not for this illegal, immoral and unneccessary war. 'But Saddam was killing people!' I hear you cry. Well, none of that would have happened if the Yanks hadn't helped put him there. Iraq would perhaps have been a normal Middle-Eastern country (where people are murdered, oppressed and tortured, but hey, as good liberals we must respect their way of doing things, and, the bottom line is, they don't do it as badly as S.H. did, and we aren't bothered enough about it to declare war on them - yet. Wait until we need more oil.)

The filth who murdered Margaret Hassan are suppressed in decent societies - they thrive only when a country is weak, divided and traumatised, and that is the effect of this illegal war. Bush and Blair must share the ultimate responsibility. I still find I can't work up any real anger about the marine killing the insurgent - and that too is another shocking effect of this war, compassion fatigue.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:59 PM

Super Ted, Hitler was gassing Jews and Gypsies. Should we then have shot all unarmed German prisoners that were wounded from 50 yards away?

Your attitude is exactly what the problem is.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:53 PM

Brucie: No you didn't forget 'candy ass'. You just posted

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 12:01 AM

Quick rejoinder. Took you long enough to think of it. Jaysus.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:37 AM

Uncle Sam is a dork. Both of them.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:40 AM

I don't get it, would someone explain all this to me. We use our might to overthrow a nation who poses no threat to us, using fear tactics & the flimiest of excuses & then cry poor intellegience (no shit). 45 minutes & Iraq could nuke the US. Turns out Iraq couldn't get out of it's own way. War crimes? Surgical & persission strikes, not from what I saw, killing & shooting unarmed military & civilians. Torture, rape & murder & all this long before any beheading started. Well if we're gonna say fuck the rules what's to stop all the other players from not doing the same thing. No matter what a person, be it soldier or civilian, has to witness there is no excuse for murder. That goes more so for the trained professional soldier. Is it a crime that skilled Iraqi contractors are bared from rebuilding their own country, they were well capable of contracting before we got there & we wouldn't be overcharged by the sweet smelling deals of the HellBurdens that are sucking us dry. The occupation of Iraq & the fight that the Iraqi's are waging is getting worst, they're ranks are swelling daily while ours are getting picked off like ducks at a county fair. These fighters that we're told are mostly from elsewhere & that it's just a handfull misguided rabel. To my way of seeing this, this is a twin sister to Viet Nam, no end in sight, no glory, no victory & a lot of war crimes & crimes against humanity. Our name has become Mudd. One more thought about many of those that came home from Nam. Alot came home as basket cases & alot as junkies who were trained killers. I can only say from those I loved & knew from what they had witnessed overseas many couldn't live a peaceful life afterwards, will we see a repeat of the past again. War Crimes, can I borrow those rose colored glasses that people seem to be wearing these days. By the way watch the new CIA (Civilians In Action) it seems as if they're gonna take War Crimes to a whole new level.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 08:54 AM

Ditto, Barry... Well written and sums it up very nicely!!!

Now, what about one of our Canadian Catters trying to make a citizen;s arrest of Bush while he's in Canada? Or has he escaped back to the dafety of the US. You know that Belgium was thinking about bringin' charges against Bush but word on the street is that they rethought it after Bush sent their president a poatcard of a mushroom cloud...

But really, one's debts must all be paid and Bush is running up one heck of a big inhumanity debt...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 01:52 PM

...and now they've raided a mosque in Baghdad and killed and wounded the people while they were praying.

d

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:11 PM

Brucie:
Took you long enough to think of it.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:29 PM

Uncle Sam = dork.
Lots of bluster
Not much talk.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:50 PM

All of you anti-war protesters are members of the Timothy McVeigh Club of government haters.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 08:22 PM

Yeah, brilliant logic US. McVeigh was so anti-war and non-violent, right?

Dumbass!

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 09:22 PM

Is it now the excepted norm that war is a good thing?

Barry