BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 06:30 PM

Martin--

I'm surprised you don't see our little clashes as a feud, especially since they've been on many threads since, I think, about May.

I can assure you that most of the "spectators" do think it's a feud, with reactions ranging from enthusastic--"Thanks for the show"--- to tolerant amusement---to disgust--"That's not what Mudcat is for".

As I said, Happy Hanukkah. Take care.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 06:13 PM

"then when it's not funny to you any longer"
Oh but it is funny... watching you flap you stupid face without a single clue what it is you're talking about... again... still...

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:53 PM

Uh,, excuse me Hot Carl, but 11 states just shot down gay marriage. Now that's funny.

It's not a question of hating fags, Hot Carl.

it's just that I have no use for them and their perversions, that's all. they can do as they want as long as they don't do it in front of me and I don't have to do anything that appeases them. too bad if you are offended. that's your problem, not mine.

You know why they respond, guest? because the truth just sometimes hurts.

I would suggest that you stop reading my posts if you are so uncomfortable with them which you obviously are. Too bad for you. Deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:37 PM

Not funny? No, you're very funny, Martin. Latents who come on as fag haters are always funny. Not funny "haha," but funny peculiar.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:35 PM

once again i query the mudcatters, why does anyone respond to this foul-mouthed, racist prick?

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:02 PM

Fuck off clinton, you are far from popular here yourself.

My pleasure to offend you. You can dish it out but you can't take it because you are a total loser. You started this Cleveland Steamer and Hot Carl thing and then when it's not funny to you any longer you start whining because it came back to bite you, not me.

Criticizing something doesn't make one a bigot.

Guest, winterbright i'm glad I don't go to your church.

don't you think your Christian followers can be shown the light without using a Hallmark holiday invented by a convicted ex-gang member as part of your agenda. Or is that too politically correct for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:57 PM

Martin, if you've never heard of them, how do you know they're fag expressions?

Care for a chocolate popsicle?

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,winterbright
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:45 PM

I'm skipping the last 2/3 of this thread because I have better things to do with my time. Just want to say that I think Kwanzaa is a great holiday. If everybody practised the 7 principles that Kwanzaa espouses, we'd all be a lot saner, friendlier, and better off.
I lead a Kwanzaa-related service at my church every year on the Sunday after Christmas. We light the candle appropriate to that day and I talk about the principle ("unity" this year), then we drum and sing and have a good time. The world needs more holidays!
I'm a white, female Unitarian Universalist.
Happy Hannusolstichriszaa!

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:35 PM

You really are in need of a good slap MG... I was wondering how long it would be before you ignorance came blazing forth in a stream of childish language and hate... only you managed to run it up the flag pole with your homophobia and bigotry as well... congratulations...

I would, in some instances even defend you to others... no longer...

Someone ban this twit please...

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:15 PM

Guest,Hot Carl I can assure you that I never heard of those fag expressions that you gleefully particpate in before you and Clinton "The Organ" Hammond seem to know so much about.

Hat to smell your dick, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:09 PM

Let them ban rap music first as the poison to the minds of black youth that it is and maybe I'll change my mind.

i do not think there should be "holidays" based on race, especially ones invented by entrepreneurs.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:06 PM

Well, I take it all back! Looking at his last message, it looks like Martin Gibson knows a lot about Cleveland steamers and such like.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:36 PM

MG, I agree with you that Kwanzaa is an invented holiday. As you say: If you have little or no self esteem you do what you can to improve it. Kwanzaa is obviously a "feel good" holiday invented right at the time of the civil rights movement that addresses that issue.

So what is so wrong with this? Why object to what people who have been oppressed do to increase their self-esteem?

The only thing I have ever objected to about Kwanzaa is when its presented either as an ancient African holiday, as it sometimes is, or when people display egregious ignorance in talking about it. I once looked at a book in Borders Book Shop that said "Kwanzaa is based on a holiday from Kenya, a country in West Africa." I thought: if this bozo can't even get out a map to check out where Kenya is, why should I believe anything she says about Kwanzaa?

Another thing that bothers some of my Jewish friends about Kwanzaa is the fact that it uses a ritual candleholder called a Kinara. The word is usually pronounced by the teachers and celebrants I know as "kenora," to rhyme with "Menorah." A lot of Jews feel this was ripped off directly from Hanukkah. I suspect they're right, but I don't begrudge African-Americans the use of the symbol, so it doesn't bother me.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Tiny Tim Cratchit
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:03 PM

God bless us, every one.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:57 PM

I could give a shit what a Hot Carl is. It sounds like some fag expression that Guest would most be familiar with.

Yeah, a Hot Carl is your own dick, Guest, soaked in rum and put in your butt buddies ass.

this is what it really is, Guest and I could give a shit what you say it is and I don't care. You are a Jew hater and represent everything that is wrong with Mudcat.

You should completely eat shit, die, and rot with your "Hot Carl" left sticking in your butt buddies ass, completely impregnated in it, and completely there for all eternity, so help me God, but no thank you Jesus.

Fuck you in the nose, Guest

and MTed, you are the butt buddy who can't get that Hot Carl out of his ass, so it just sitds there causing you to be more full of shit than Hot Carl himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:27 PM

why does anyone even reply to this racist prick?

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:35 PM

I don't think Martin ever looks anything up, Hot Carl--

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:30 PM

Glad you enjoyed that, Clinton. I still don't think Martin Gibson gets it. Done it, probably, but gets it? I doubt it. He's slow that way.

By the way Martin, when you say "You offend easily. I don't," I have to disagree. You offend very easily. In fact you have a marvelous natural talent for offending.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:39 AM

OK, Ron Davies

Actually I don't consider it a feud at all. You post. I respond.

You offend easily. I don't.

I have a suggestion. If what I say bothers you, let it go. When I make a comment or observation such as the nonsense of criticizing a non-holiday like Kwanzaa which was started by a former convicted gang member who reaps many royalties from the sale of candles and products that he has a copyrighted interest in, please don't accuse me of being a racist when I tell it like it is. This political correctness thing about not being able to criticize someone or something is what many are finally waking up to as being total bullshit.

Otherwise, sure why not. Have a fine Holiday season.

Little Hawk, we'll see what else happens, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 10:41 AM

Martin---

I note with interest your latest (rather short) screed.

Tell you what.

Hanukkah has started.

As Joni Mitchell says "It's coming on Christmas"---amazingly fast.

I wish you--in all seriousness--this is not meant sarcastically--a great Hanukkah. I hope it makes you less angry at the world.

Although I know it entertains Little Hawk (and possibly others)---as Rod Stewart says "I know I keep you amused/ But I fear I'm being used"----I think we should have a truce--consider it our version of the medieval Truce of God. I don't intend to attack you at least for the month of December, no matter what you say. If you want, we can resume in January.

I'm sorry you don't think Kwanzaa deserves to exist. But to paraphrase--was it Patrick Henry?---if this be weakness, make the most of it.

At any rate, as I said, the duel can recommence in January, if you want.   It's not necessary even then.

I do have better things to do now--like for instance get out of Mudcat membership limbo--still having problems with my "cookie",-- get ready for my caroling party, family stuff, Christmas concerts, continue my search for a reliable contractor, get back to reading more, etc.


So--Happy Hanukkah

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: mack/misophist
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:50 AM

Martin Gibson,

Why all the rancor? I don't understand your reasoning. If I were to declare Emperor Norton a saint - which he was, more so than Mother Teresa - and celebrate his birthday, you might consider me a lunatic. In fact, I am. But where do you find all this wrongeous indignation over things that have little or no bearing on your daily life? This kind of thing takes more energy than it's worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: number 6
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:08 AM

Hey. This is pretty good !!

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: tarheel
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 11:31 PM

well, as Lucy once told Charlie Brown,in the cartoon tv classic,(explaining what Christmas was all about))"it's all run by a big eastern syndicate,you know!" .....food for thought!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 10:21 PM

"Hot Carl"!

LOL!!!!!!!!!

I'll bet MG is into that too! (Or it might be more accurate to say it's into him...)

Too funny!

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 07:30 PM

Ron Davies you are such a big man in your own mind because you sign your name.

You are the FAKE Ron Davies.

The Ron Davies I know is smart and is not the bluthering idiot who posts here not sure if he is full of himself or full of shit. He is a real man who does not offend like a big baby and he is tough.

No. You are not the real Ron Davies know matter if you say you are.

And what difference does it make? Maybe I have given my real name to some on the PM side. I won't give it to you Ron Davies, because either way, you are a complete idiot who takes himself too seriously and I won't give you the satisfaction of it.

Time to pick out some naval fuzz, Ron. You got a good crop growing there.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 06:58 PM

On the subject of weakness:

Well now, let's see here.

On one hand we have somebody who always posts giving his own name, who stands behind every word he's ever written on Mudcat, and who believes that any movement which supports good principles should be applauded, not attacked.

On the other hand we have an equal-opportunity bigot who attacks virtually everybody on Mudcat, but who runs whining to higher authority when he thinks he is being impersonated (as if anybody would want to).

When they have encounters --(can't call them debates, since the second person 1) has no concept of debate and 2) can't seem to get out of the bathroom--his continuing obsession),--- the first one routinely and effortlessly slashes the second to ribbons, usually using sarcasm, which works like a charm.

The second person has also never once had the guts to sign his name to any of the pathetic drivel he constantly spouts.

I wonder which of them is the weaker. Sure is a tough choice.

But I'll have to go with Person #2--he wins the prize.

Congratulations, courageous "Martin".

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 05:14 PM

That's a good idea, Guest. they might just find out that you really are a rotton asshole when the test results come back.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Hot Carl
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 05:08 PM

I didn't know Martin Gibson was this naive.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:54 PM

I think I'll go get a colonoscopy on Kwanzaa in honor of MG.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:39 PM

What ever it is, Cinton I don't relate to it.

But that turd and enema is perhaps something I relate to you as.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:25 PM

It's more what I identify my perception of YOU with MG

*Big Grin... ya no... really*

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:13 PM

clinton, there was a bunch of other crap. Which one do YOU identify with?

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:12 PM

artbrooks

I will be saying a barucha tonight for Hanukah and hope that you turn into a human being from someone who is so plastic.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:02 PM

Keep looking MG...

I'm sure you'll recognise it when you find it...

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:55 PM

Martin Gibson, I will promise not to think of you as we say our brucha tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:52 PM

I never heard of this. At first I thought it was a turd. Then perhaps an enema.

I found this:

"The Cleveland Steamer is an independent newsletter based in Cleveland Ohio, focused on politics, current events, pop culture, and all the other crap"

Cleveland sucks. It's a city I would take a dump in.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:41 PM

Oh come on MG... a crude 'ignor-anus' like you... You GOTTA know what a Cleveland Steamer is... I'll bet yer mom gives ya one every year for your Birthday...

Try google...

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:36 PM

A Cleveland Steamer?

How about a NY Sub?

Agreed, separate days, a few times a year at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:34 PM

I usually find myself moaning AFTER every celebration... mostly as a result of overindulgence!

:-P

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:32 PM

An invented feastday. But has that ever stopped Americans liking "Thanksgiving"? Apart from the odd grouch, no doubt. But you always find them, moaning about every celebration.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 02:55 PM

Feel better than? I donno... I've never Kwanzaa'd... But what the hell... I'll try anything once...

But if were gonna have days for orgasms and dumps, can we have those on separate days? Not everyone likes a Cleveland Steamer as much as you do MG...

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 02:14 PM

Uncle Dave   

"And so?"

let's have a feel good holiday for orgasms also.

Or a feel good holiday for taking a dump.

don't you agree these thing feel better than Kwanzaa?

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 11:51 AM

I'd suggest that we make up a Holiday For Hate, but I think someone already beat me to it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 11:47 AM

The all-knowing MG saith:

Kwanzaa is obviously a "feel good" holiday invented right at the time of the civil rights movement that addresses that issue.

True. And so????

And I can't forbear to point out that MG's comment "is hypothetical, not based on any hard facts." He knows about that kind of thing.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 11:36 AM

Wrong Bones.

It is a holiday commemorating an event. You are full of shit and a liar. Menorahs and candles have been easily available for centuries at hardly any cost.

Greg F., where is it not said that that you are not a fuckface asshole? It's said here that you are. Jews can be bigots and racists, but since they only make up about 2.5% of America, I would say there are much less of them to dodge then the Jew hating Christians out there. Much less.

And finally ron DAVIES, I don't care if you sing in praise of the made up holiday Kwanzaa. If you don't get my "point" you are a bigger fool than most here already know you for. Pathetic that the good principals you mentioned have to be marketed don't you think? Pathetic that you need a made up and invented holiday to remind people of them. It's not a question of race, you have fallen victim to the usual invented, feel good, don't offend political correctness that you need as a crutch in your life.

You're a weak person, ron. very weak.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Bones
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 09:18 AM

Hannakuh is a self-serving special intrest group holiday invented by manorah and candle salesmen.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 09:01 AM

Where is it written that Jews can't be bigots and racists? Are they supposedly somehow exempt as a group??

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 06:45 AM

Knowing Martin's concern for absolute accuracy in all things: " participated"

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 06:41 AM

Ah Martin--

Your own patented tact, tolerance, and wide-eyed childlike curiosity about the world around you. It's heartwarming.

Just who is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy Kwanzaa cards? Tell them I said you didn't need to.

So the idea of the holiday was invented in California in 1966?   Your point?

Which of the principles do you have a problem with? Self-reliance? Community?

I would think you might be in favor of an idea that encourages black kids to stay in school, not to join gangs, to try to help their community, to have a consciousness about humans' place in the web of life, etc.

It is true that in the services I particiated in, they lit candles, in something like a menorah, for each of the principles. But if you were in a charitable mood----which you always are, of course----you could consider that imitation is the sincerest expression of flattery.


I have sung in several Kwanzaa services in a Unitarian church where one of my groups was singing. We did a mix of stuff, including some madrigals--- and Siyahamba, a great, hypnotic song.

Looking forward to more of your delightful comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Kwanza is an invented non-holiday
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 06:39 AM

"If it means something to you, you hold on to it and cherish it."

Cherish does not mean 'ram down others throat until they choke on it'....

If you want to start a tradition you just do something often enough. To paraphrase something I found in an Ian Fleming book:~ Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, third time, it's TRADITION!

LTS