BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 03:42 PM

Oh, donuel please spare us.

Al quaida could give a shit.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 03:30 PM

Wolfgang, thanks for the info.

We have an epochal situation here. If you'll forgive me dragging a phrase from the Presidential debates, we've got a true 'global test'. An international problem that calls for international help and cooperation.

I think there is already a lot of compassion. This is an unforeseen cataclysm and the victims are truly victims. If such a wave hit the East coast of the US I think all that wonderful infrastructure which insulates us from the raw natural world would've been swept away or rendered useless, and we would look no different from the folks we are seeing thanks to the immediacy of satellite transmission. And I think most of us know that.

So let's see if the UN is good for anything. Let's see if these growing South East Asian economic powerhouses are generating their own recuperative capabilities (Signs are they are).

Guest, I'd be able to take you a bit more seriously if you took on a name, even if only a temporary one. I distrust the un-named self-righteous who like to dump facts which might or might not be complete and figures which might or not be accurate. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder and I'm not interested in feeding your ego (although I just have by bringing up the subject of 'you'). Anyhow, I know people who were in the Alaskan quake and I don't know people who were in other quakes (except some minor ones I've been in). You want to remain not only anonymous but unidentifiable, I suggest you start a whole thread for yourself, called "No matter what happens, let's dump on someone and feel smug". I promise I'll show up and make you feel self-important, but no more in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 03:28 PM

Its chilling how the human mind tries to put in numbers what we can not truely envision. I have on more than one occasion imagined how any media presentation would portray a holocaust that may number in the billions.

These Christmas day earthquakes for the last 2 years comes at a time when the American President is on vacation and we are warmed in our hearts and hearths with holiday spirit.

I am not indicting anyone regarding this tradgedy of biblical proportions. I am stunned however at the US government gesture of $35 million in relief. We spend somewhat less than a billion dollars a day in Iraq war expenses.

The war for the hearts and minds of the Muslim world is ours (USA) to win or lose.
I repeat

The war for the hearts and minds of the Muslim world is ours (USA) to win or lose with the US response to this tradgedy.

What does $35 million buy? It buys only 20% of the bonus for a CEO.
It buys a fancy new yacht or several private Gulf Stream private jets.
Private US donations will certainly dwarf 35 million many times over but for Bush advisors to put George on TV and declare the amgic number 35mil is representative of the true nature of the people in charge of the project for the new american century.

If this opinion simply strikes some people here as wholesale American bashing I can not change thier minds. I only hope the administration will change my mind with a proper response.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 03:02 PM

1.33333333333333333333333333e-5

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:59 PM

Right, belter. Maybe I should learn how to read the accessories calculator which showed the decimal places at the end of the threes. Sorry all.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: belter
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:56 PM

The gent who says 1 1/3% of world percent just died is a little off. The number is more like 1 1/3 thousanth of a percent. When talking about world population, thats still a very scary number.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:19 PM

Sorry GUEST. I took it the wrong way. Please accept my apology.

Bad few weeks here. I shouldn't have snapped at you. New Year's resolution in the making.

Sincerely,

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:17 PM

Why? I was being genuine and serious. Your post was an excellent example of why small donations matter, and I was supporting you making that point.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:11 PM

Doctors without borders...
Thank you for that.

I know many may think that prior warning is a moot issue but it follows the plot of the movie Jaws with striking similarity.

Source: Expressen (Swedish online newspaper)
Date: Dec. 28
Translated by: CLiss
www.expressen.se/expresse...sp?a=22...

"Tsunami warning was stopped"

Just minutes after the earthquake in the Indian Ocean on Sunday morning, Thailand's foremost meterological experts were sitting together in a crisis meeting. But they decided not to warn about the tsunami "out of courtesy to the tourist industry", write the Thailand daily newspaper The Nation.

The experts got the news around 8:00 am on Sunday morning local time. An hour later, the first massive wave struck. But the experts started to discuss the economic impacts when they were discussing if a tsunami warning should be made. The main argument against such a warning was that there have not been any floods in 300 years. Also, the experts believed the Indonesian island Sumatra would be a "cushion" for the southern coast of Thailand. The experts also had bad information; they thought the tremor was 8.1. A similar earthquake occurred in the same area in 2002 with no flooding at all.


We finally decided not to do anything because the tourist season was in full swing. The hotels were 100% booked full. What if we issued a warning, which would have led to an evacuation, and nothing had happened. What would be the outcome? The tourist industry would be immediately hurt. Our department would not be able to endure a lawsuit...

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:05 PM

"So as our mighty firefighter above says"

Eat dirt.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:04 PM

I have just seen on Irish TV News that the response for aid to the various charities has been overwhelming, it is expected that the £3.00 per head of the population given to Band Aid will be surpassed this time, great news.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:58 PM

heric, I always donate to Medecins Sans Frontieres/Doctors Without Borders first when I make international disaster donations. They are already in there, on the ground, in all the worst hit countries.

Their organization is very tight, very quick first responder teams on all the continents who go out to quickly assess where the needs are greatest and will be of greatest benefit on the ground. Then usually within 24-48 hours, they start sending in their volunteers who will stay in the region for 3-9 months, depending upon the need. They are very good at what they do, and they don't soak up a lot of donation money in administrative costs because they are very well organized to mobilize immediately and with great effectiveness. They always have a separate administrative team on the ground to coordinate goods and services, so the field teams don't have to do that part of the work on the ground in the nearest big city to coordinate things coming in and things going to the field.

A friend of my daughter's mom is a doctor who has volunteered for a couple of tours with them in the last ten years, and since we heard straight from the horse's mouth about their organization, we've been donating to them ever since.

I also always look for organizations that can set up camps for the displaced quickly and efficiently, in the area of the disaster, if possible. Catholic Relief Services is pretty good at this if I decide to go locally.

I won't donate to Red Cross/Red Crescent anymore because of the negative things I've heard from people in the disaster relief business about them. And then there was the whole 9/11 debacle. And there are only a handful of UN organizations I will donate to anymore either because of this sort of thing. I do still donate to the UN Population Fund, as that money goes directly pregnant & nursing women, who are often the first to be overlooked in disasters. But I'm not too keen on how much money it takes the UN orgs to administer relief. It is a massive bureaucracy, burdened by way too much inefficiency. Unfortunately, they are sometimes the only resort, not just the last one.

As to money, I can rarely afford more than $10.00 to give to a couple of charities. But I also know that 1,000 people donating $10 each equals $10,000 pretty quickly, and 10,000 people donating $10 each equals $100,000.

That adds up to some serious change in no time at all. So as our mighty firefighter above says, don't ever think your small money donation is insignificant. It never is, because it all adds up to real help. Truly.

Another bit of info people interested in donating to international relief efforts now and later might like to know about is the Reuters AlertNet website. It is a great website, that is jam packed with concise, up to the minute information on disaster relief around the world. For instance, right now you are two clicks away from a comprehensive list of disaster relief aid by country if you wish, or by charitable organization if you wish. It's an excellent resource to use to find a charity worthy of your support.

One final thing I'd like to say about disaster relief. I only support organizations that stay in the field long enough to finish the job, and who don't rob from the suffering Peters in Sudan to pay short term for the suffering Pauls in Sri Lanka. What I mean is, too many charitable organizations shift too many resources away from the areas like Sudan or Nigeria or Somalia or Turkey or Afghanistan where the ongoing relief needs are the most crucial to break the cycle of dependency upon foreign aid. That isn't responsible or effective crisis or relief management. So that is another thing I investigate about charities before I donate.

Once you've done your homework, you can donate worry free, knowing your dollars will get the best bang for the buck on the relief front. That is very important to me, because I know that millions and billions of dollars get wasted over the years that don't need to get wasted, by inefficiency, bureaucratic in-fighting, and "values" politics (a lot of religious relief organizations are guilty of the values politics thing in the international relief game) and way too much aid from them comes with "values" strings attached. Hence, I always look very carefully at any religious organizations when I donate.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:56 PM

I take back my last message as I see the obstruction may have been due to my own PC, apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:52 PM

Who is the prize prick that blanked out part of my message, this was a most relevant point regarding this tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:42 PM

Approximately one and a third percent of the world's population just died in this event. The final toll will be above two percent, IMO. If some of you behaved this way at a funeral you would be trounced. And, you would deserve to be.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:30 PM

"In a sign of the brutal disconnect between investors and the poor who suffered the tragedy, however, Indonesian and Indian stock markets were hitting record highs on perceived economic good times."

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:22 PM

So, who's going to rewrite Mighty Day into Tagalog? Or even into English? Time for a song... too early for jokes, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:06 PM

Guest, heric

this thread is already about complainers who are pointing fingers and blaming Americans about the earthquake, related tsunami bring death.

Everyone has already pointed out how tragic it is. This thread took on it's accusatory tone very early on.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:04 PM

CNN now reporting over 80,000 people dead. 1/3 children. 1/3 children being that most of these places population is 1/3 children. The children had the least chance of hanging on to something or running away fast enough.
An aftershock was just reported measuring .6.
This is a tradgedy and heartbreaking to see all of the bodies that can't even be identified because most of them only wore swimsuits and now they are bloating to unrecoginized features.
My question is, why don't these people and the relief teams get away from all the devestation. Go inland a mile. Get the healthy people that are walking around all of this, away from it, where they can?
Seems to me it would help a little on the spread of disease. They say even chicken poxs are breaking out. That's strange, but do you hear what I'm saying?

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:01 PM

MBS Lynne,

"I feel quite frustrated at not being able to do more than donate an incredibly small amount of money."

One of the things I came to realize when I first became a firefighter is that soaking the axe head in a pail of water with some antifreeze in it may help save a life or a structure, or that checking the air pressure of the truck tires could be the difference between someone living or not. What the heck does that mean? It means that there are NO unimportant tasks in a system that is dedicated to helping others.

I had been 'fighting' fires for over a year before I ever got to use the hose. And it was two years before I entered a burning structure wearing breathing apparatus [BA]. The first big structure fire (a large house with an attached garage and attached workshop) I was at found me in charge of a hydrant--a job given to rookies because 1) it has to be done and 2) there is less chance of screwing up badly and getting someone else injured or killed. Here is the genesis of a structure-fire call to a volunteer department (although details may vary according to circumstance).

Someone notices smoke or flame coming from a house

That someone calls 911 (999 in England)

The 911 dispatch takes the info and alerts the appropriate fire department by sending a radiowave page that triggers the beeping device in firefighters' pagers

The firefighters go to the hall where the first FF in alerts command that the hall is manned

Command has gone directly to the scene and the FF dress in bunker gear while command sizes up the scene

The dressed FFs go to the equipment floor where they are assigned to various trucks. Our hall has six trucks. Because we handle town calls and county calls, the fire location and fire 'size' will dictate which trucks respond

The FF who was first in will assign FFs to the trucks that will roll. On this hypothetical fire we require a pumper, an aerial ladder truck and a rescue truck. The pumper will be first out. The driver has to be a pump operator, and the four FFs who will travel in that truck have to be BA certified. It rolls and receives direction en route (from the command vehicle at the scene) as to where to stage and what they're facing

Regardless of the fire size, most trucks only carry between 500 and a 1000 gallons of water, and that can be sprayed away in less than about four minutes. If the fire requires a massive amount of water 'right now', someone will have to hook to a hydrant to ensure a continuous supply to the truck. If that isn't done, after four minutes ya got a team of guys who have no water. If they're inside, they have no water protection or way to control the burn

The second truck in is the aerial ladder truck. It will hook to a hydrant and hook to the first pumper to provide water for the first pumper and water for itself Most areial ladders trucks carry very little water with them

The third truck in will carry FFs who will be assigned duties when they arrive on scene

Within twelve minutes (tops) it has gone from someone seeing smoke to having 12-16 FFs on scene and starting to deal with the fire. There isn't a single step there that can be cut out. There is no unimportant job. The axe head in the water with the antifreeze? The guy who did that expanded the wood in the axe head so that when it was used to gain access to the house, the head--which had become loose because the wood had shrunk was expanded by the soaking, and the guys could get into the structure. The guy who established water supply at the hydrant? He made sure his buddies inside had protection from the flame and water to begin the extinguishment. The scene commander? He determined whether or not the house was occupied and if the shop attached to the house contained things that go boom. The guy who ensured all the radios were working and had fully charged batteries has also ensured that the guys inside have a secure link/contact with their fellows on the outside. It's important to be able to tell them that the structue is in danger of collapse and they should get out, now.

This scenario isn't all that hypothetical. And something else that isn't hypothetical is this: Which event in the chain of things would you cancel (have not happen)? The call to 911? The radio page? The hydrant hook up? The axe head maintenance?

The fire axe cost $30. The pail to soak it in cost $3. The antifreeze cost $2. The truck cost $85,000. The training for each FF cost $10,000. The radio batteries cost $40. The call to 911 cost $.15 and the gas to get the pumper to the fire cost $1. While you consider which to leave out because it's 'an incredibly small amount of money', I will suggest that there is no such thing. That you have done what you can do is the measure of your contribution and your 'goodness'. That you have done what you can do is the measure of your humanity. That you have done what you can do.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:58 AM

Stop! This thread will be about earthquake and related tsunami bring death.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:48 AM

Guest, heric

yes, I have many of the so called "Americans" here pegged.

They are some pretty shitty ones at that. They belong to that worthless society called "Hand wringers and social commies of America." I forgive them most of the time for just being some of American society's misfits and square pegs.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 11:33 AM

Not that this really answers the question, but you can choose from the overwhelming number of suggestions and further linked references on this page:
http://tsunamihelp.blogspot.com/

I personally have distrust, without hard evidence to justify it, of the Red Cross administrative fees and the incompetence of the U.S. Federal Disaster Relief agencies. (It's based on purely anecdotal tales involving localized actions in California and Florida. Both criticisms/concerns are based therefore only on guilt by association.) The legitimacy of those concerns are not important given the immediacy of this situation.

I ended up choosing the Salvation Army, whom I trust, again with no hard evidence to justify it, and Doctors Without Borders. But you can readily find very localized entities in this internet age, that will hopefully receive cash exactly where it is needed. (But if you go too local, then maybe the cash won't be very useful if what is needed can't be bought.) No easy choices but I think you have to take a quick stab and hope for the best.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 10:03 AM

I had some friends go to Costa Rica after the hurricane to help out for two weeks. Most of us can't do that of course, what with jobs and families. My friends were both single, well off financially, and had vacation time available and took it.

Money is truly the best most of us this side the planet can offer, if we have it. Question is, who best to send the money to?I'd rather send money to the region directly, and not have it eaten up by administrative costs just to ship the money to Asia, if you catch my drift.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: MBSLynne
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 08:32 AM

If I didn't have the responsibility of my children, I would offer myself to go there and help.....I feel quite frustrated at not being able to do more than donate an incredibly small amount of money.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 08:31 AM

A few friends kindly contributed a sum of money which I have sent off to-day to the Red Cross, everyone I have talked to were more than willing to help out, the TV pictures are heart-rending.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 06:07 AM

The response to this terrible tragedy by the the rest of the countries of the world is beyond belief, it is not often I would agree with The Daily Mail [UK] newspaper, but they sum it up perfectly by stating that Britain spends the same amount daily on Iraq than that which they have offered to the countries affected by this disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 05:32 AM

WE don't know where massive disasters like this are going to hit, and we don't know what kind of disasters they are going to be. But we know there are going to be disasters, because that is part of the world we live in.

And than is why we need to have the infrastructure for responding in place, all the time, ready to move into action when it is needed. Instead we have a few largely paper organisations and committees, starved of resources. It's a bit like having a firefighting system that just relies on helpful neighbours with buckets.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:58 AM

FYI: From the article I mentioned above:

"Mr. Egeland responded to Mr. Powell's criticism by saying that he had been misunderstood and that he had not been referring to aid for the quake and tsunami victims but to the overall trend in recent years by Western countries in aiding the poor. He said pledges for the current crisis had been "most generous."

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:34 AM

Of course, I didn't mention that the UN official was speaking of both the US and the European Union, who initially offered a whopping $4.1 million dollars to the relief efforts. Along with their own planes to rescue their own people. Considering the paltry amount of aid they are offering, it is damn generous they didn't insist the Sri Lankan authorities evacuate them at least, like Kohl did.

The aid response from the governments of Europe and the US to this tragedy has been pathetic. We should be deeply ashamed at the paltry amount the world's wealthiest nations, who have no compunctions about exploiting the region as their tourist paradise, have offered. There is simply no excuse for their being so closefisted and parsimonious about relief to the area.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:21 AM

And it is no surprise the right wing media in the US has gone into anti-UN, anti-internationalist echo chamber overdrive, screaming about how the world is now blaming the US for the Asian tragedy, because a UN official said the initial relief package offered by the US, $15 million, was a reflection of the wealthy nations' stingy response to these sorts of disasters.

So it is no coincidence that we see the right wingers here in Mudcat echoing what they just heard on the Fox and MSNBC echo chambers' fashionably fascist talk shows. Sadly predictable, actually.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:11 AM

>>>only sees criticism of Americans? Looks like someone is very selective in their blindness to the truth. <<<

Can't figure out any part of that. But carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 01:11 AM

Irate Over 'Stingy' Remark, US Adds $20 Million to Disaster Aid

Google the above. Interesting article.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 12:44 AM

I never suggested Kohl should interfere with rescue operations. I suggested he should have stayed, at least with the foreign tourists, and played the role of world respected public figure who could speak first hand about the disaster and the needs of the locals on the ground. Had he requested to be briefed by the local authorities so he could speak to the world about the relief and aid needed, I'm certain they would have shown that diplomatic courtesy to him.

And as to the supposed American bashing here, give me a fucking break. The majority of posters here are Americans. Who better to speak to our own weaknesses and flaws? Would you all prefer they just be swept under the rug and we all agree with the Martin Gibsons of the world that being assholes is a just fine way to be?

And hey--in case none of you have noticed, in my recent posts I have criticized the governments of the region, the world development organizations, a German politician...but for some reason heric only sees criticism of Americans? Looks like someone is very selective in their blindness to the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 09:31 PM

Good heavens I wish some of you could step back and observe your own words in context. Here we have a natural catastrophe and human tragedy of staggering proportions, and even NOW we have so many who just MUST make a mudcat thread into "Americans are ignorant," "Americans are stupid," Americans are selfish," "Americans are greedy." (No, we don't watch news about the tragedy because it doesn't involve oil or textiles.)

I stumbled into mudcat just before 9/11, and I read a lot of insightful thoughts which helped me get my brain around that tragedy. That's what made me stick around and keep reading, but criminy, I'm beginning to understand where Martin Gibson is coming from. The incessant "Americans are" themes are SO tiring. They permeate and degrade almost any worthwhile reading.

My apologies for this interuption to those who are trying to focus on the subject at hand. Back to it.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 09:16 PM

Robomatic,

it's 'Die perfekte Welle', one of the most successful songs of this year. 'The perfect wave' sems to be this summer's german youth language for 'extremely good'.

Helicopters of the Sri Lankan army (certainly not German army helicopters) are transporting tourists from a region that is inaccessible by land (street damaged by the tsunami) to a point from which they can travel on by car. One of these tourists was Kohl. The press, of course, mentions by name only the one who they think is known. Whether he was flown out first (2 days after the tsunami) or not I don't know.

I prefer politicians in disasters not to interfere with the local rescuing activities and to comment from a place further away.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:43 PM

And the Peruvian quake?

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:39 PM

" why do remember the Alaska earthquake that killed 125 people instead, but not those above?"

because at the time, China was very insular and hated for news of disasters to get out. There very little information about how bad it was, even though we knew that it had occured....the Alaskan quake had movies and news almost instantly and was headlines in the more open press.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:27 PM

I don't know.

You tell us why, you with all the answers and facts.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:25 PM

Leadfingers, there was also a quake in Gujarat, India in 2001 that killed over 20,000 people. Earthquakes are actually very common in this part of the world, and there is no reasonable justification for why they don't have the technology, except their governments and the world development organizations haven't been fit and decent enough to install it. I certainly hope that is corrected now.

BTW, that Ningxia-Kansu, China quake was a 8.6 magnitude. Sorry for the spectacular typo!

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:19 PM

Yes and no. India and Thailand both have plenty of money to install this sort of technology, for starters. It's a question of priorities.

To put this in perspective though, one need only look at some of the earthquake casualty statistics from the 20th century:

70,000 dead in the Messina, Italy quake of 7.2 magnitude Dec 28, 1908.

200,000 dead in the Ningxia-Kansu, China quake of 8.96 magnitude Dec 16, 1920.

143,000 dead in the Kanto, Japan quake of 7.9 magnitude Sept 1, 1923.

200,000 dead in the Tsinghai, China quake of 7.9 magnitude May 22, 1927.

32,700 dead in the Erzincan, Turkey quake of 7.8 magnitude Dec 26, 1939.

66,000 dead in the Peru quake of 7.9 magnitude May 31, 1970.

255,000 dead in the Tangshan, China quake of 7.5 magnitude July 27, 1976.

Certainly the last two I mention above are well within the memory of most Mudcatters. Which begs the question, why do remember the Alaska earthquake that killed 125 people instead, but not those above?

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 08:02 PM

The last Tsunami of any size in the Indian Ocean was (I Believe) in
1836 . It is hardly surprising that there was NO Tsunami early warning
system in place in the Indian Ocean as the last people who actually
experienced this died the best part of a hundred years ago .
An interesting side effect of this catastrophe is that there is wide
coverage on the American Media . A Terrible way to give so many Americans a Geography Lesson !

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 07:58 PM

I found this story quite interesting, from the Chicago Tribune:

Aftermath of the earthquake: Shorter days


Published December 28, 2004


Incredibly, the magnitude 9.0 earthquake that struck off Sumatra on Sunday morning caused a vertical displacement of so much material that the rotation period of the Earth has been permanently altered. By a tiny but measurable amount, the Earth is now rotating more quickly on its axis, and the 24-hour day is now one ten-thousandth second shorter.That's the result of calculations based on preliminary data made by Oak Park astronomer Dr. Leslie M. Golden. It's analogous to the increase in rotational speed that a twirling ice skater experiences when he or she draws in their arms. It is estimated that during the Sumatran quake, a block of material roughly 600 miles in length and 100 miles in width fell 30 feet closer to the Earth's axis of rotation. The planet has responded by rotating more rapidly, albeit ever so slightly, and our 24-hour days are now one ten-thousandth second shorter.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 07:50 PM

Think about what Helmut Kohl and an American television news crew could have done to help.

Seriously. I'm not talking nonsense here. He seems to have been the only world figure in the region where the disaster occurred, and he bolted as soon as he got the chance. That is despicable, considering the attention he could have gotten doing live broadcasts pleading for aid to the region. He could have shamed at least some in the wealthy nations into doing the right thing. He could have just done something for the other foreign tourists in the region. He could have done a lot of things, but instead chose to flee.

No reason why we shouldn't mention the despicable, especially when they so obviously are deserving of our scorn.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Nemesis
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 07:24 PM

Bill D, thanks for that info ...

BTW what happened to the "international rapid reaction force "that there was talk about setting up?

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 06:55 PM

Two responses to this are appropriate. One is getting in help as a matter of top priority. This is a far far greater disaster than September 11th was, and requires an appropriate level of response.

The second, longer term, response should be a new recognition of the way in which we are all of us on this planet potentially vulnerable to disasters of one sort or another, and that adequate contingency plans for reacting rapidly and adequately need to be in place. That means mechanisms for transmitting and receiving warnings, and for marshalling aid and help. And it has to be coordinated internationally.

September 11th was seen as a wake-up call. This is another wake-up call, on a far greater scale.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 06:37 PM

blame and accusations.

blame and accusations.

blame and accusations.

Think about what you can do to help. Contact your church or synagogue.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 06:32 PM

yes...the German army seems to have sent a helicopter in to get Helmut Kohl and several in his party. I have no idea how relevant this is to the situation...perhaps the helicopter returned to do other work...*shrug*

We are just beginning to get reports from some of the more remote areas affected, and I'm sure the statistics will rise as evaluations are made.

and Nemesis...there is 'almost' constant coverage here in the US thru CNN, MSNBC, FOX News and others....we may get a break for other news, but the disaster leads most broadcasts...(along with news of the 'upgrading' of the US commitment of money and resources as cricicisms are made. Bianca Jagger was on "Crossfire", claiming that the US didn't 'give' in relation to its resources, even though we do give more than anyone else...You can't win)

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 06:29 PM

I stand corrected as to my German chancellor error, as if it matters. The point is still the same. Their privleged status got them out, which always leaves a bad taste in my mouth in these sorts of circumstances.

Just think how much good he could have done had he stayed, and flown in US TV camera crews instead, and begged the west for massive amounts of aid on live television.

Instead, he and his party fled the scene, and now we get to hear the right wing echo chamber bitch about the UN calling all our rich nations' response to this disaster stingy.

Subject: RE: BS: earthquake, related tsunami bring death
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 06:22 PM

Mary Garvey's reaction is similar to my initial reaction. I didn't cotton on too quickly to the facts that there had never been an occurrence in the Indian Ocean even close to this tragedy. And I was listening to NPR tonight where one of the Americans who monitored the earthquake (from a continent away) made it clear that:

1) Initial readings led them to think the magnitude was one tenth what it was.

2) Not every earthquake spawns a tsunami, that occurs when the displacement in the earth is apbruptly vertical.

When the early damage reports came in, they did the best they could to make calls to local authorities. Unfortunately there was no emergency system in place to deal with this, and also unfortunately, it was the weekend.

The conclusion is that without an actual tsunami warning system, the information they had left them with no time to warn the early victims, and no system to distribute an effective warning to the later victims.

Unfortunately, this will not bring any cheer to the millions of people whose lives have been turned upside down by deep personal and financial loss.

3) The last earthquake that was comparable in size (slightly larger) was the Good Friday quake in Alaska in 1964. It spawned a local tsunami that wiped out at least one Alaskan village. However, the population at the time was pretty sparse. Even Anchorage at the time was more of a 'town' than a city. The next time this occurs there will billions and billions in property loss, but the people are so distributed that I doubt there will be a large loss of life. About two years ago there was a magnitude 8 quake in uninhabited land but right near the Trans Alaska Pipeline. No loss of life, some loss of road, no leakage of oil.

Wolfgang, I was intrigued by the German song "The Perfect Wave". What is the title in German?