Irish songs which aren't Irish

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:41 AM

GUEST says "An Irish song is one that:

(a) Is written in Ireland, no matter what it is about.

(b) Is written by an 'Irish' person, no matter how many generations removed from Ireland.
   
(c) Is about Ireland, in even the vaguest fashion.
   
(d) Sounds as though it MIGHT be about Ireland."

But he forgot the main one

(e) Is not written in Ireland; is not written by an Irish person; is not about Irland; does not sound as though it MIGHT be about Ireland; but has been recorded by an Irish singer or group (especially the Dubliners).

And a song can acquire a new nationality by adoption - many songs originating elsewhere are now definitely in the Irish tradition. And you can tell people thet Lamorna is about Manchester until you are blue in the face - it is now as Cornish as the Furry Dance.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:14 AM

The real question is, if they sing Irish songs, will they be allowed to play football for Ireland?

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Weasel Books
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:04 AM

It's the same tune though, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:00 AM

Eagle Wing,
                   Don't take me too seriously, PLEASE!

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:30 AM

The Foggy Dew shares it's title with an English song but that's about all.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Weasel Books
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 07:13 AM

Isn't the "Foggy Dew" based on an English folksong?

Bouzoukis are definetely a part of TODAY'S tradition, I think that qualifies. Let's not even talk about banjos and mandolins. If I were to say bouzoukis were a traditional instrument 30 years ago, that's a different matter.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: EagleWing
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 06:44 AM

A GUEST says "An Irish song is one that:
   
   (a) Is written in Ireland, no matter what it is about.
   
   (b) Is written by an 'Irish' person, no matter how many generations removed from Ireland.
   
   (c) Is about Ireland, in even the vaguest fashion.
   
   (d) Sounds as though it MIGHT be about Ireland."

By that logic, the following songs are all English

"The Croppy Boy"
"The Rising of the Moon"
"The Foggy Dew"
"The Wind that Shakes the Barley"
"Kelly the Boy from Killane"
"Kevin Barry"
and many others.

Why - Well, they are all "about England, in the vaguest fashion."

Frank L

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: freightdawg
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:02 AM

Hey Seamus...

"You're not Irish, you can't be Irish, you don't know 'Danny Boy'..."

(tee hee)

To get a little theological thread drift in here (talk about rowing with crooked oars), how many of the Psalms are introduced by "...a Psalm of David". Now we know that David did not write *every* one of the Psalms so noted, some were written by David, some about David, and some were collected by David.

So the songs of Ireland. Some were written by the Irish, some about the Irish, and some collected by and assimilated by the Irish. Americans have done the same thing (i.e. the history of "Yankee Doodle Dandy").

I for one have enjoyed the thread. I know some folks who swear that all the "tin pan alley" songs are truly Irish. With the little bit of ammo you all have provided me with I shall have no end of fun with them.

O, what tangled webs we weave when first a Mudcat thread we read...

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:45 PM

Hi Bob,

Years ago Nick Reynolds looked into an 8 String tenor guitar to play with in The Kingston Trio. I have seen Mando Cellos tuned and played as if present day Bouzoukis.

Perhaps I expect things to be a little longer in the public domain before they are accepted as part of the tradition. Certainly nothing I'm willing to get over.

Maybe we need to be a whole lot less "pigeonholing" about or music and a lot more open to the good thats out there. I must admit that even I can be a bit strident about some of my points. Hope I don't/didn't ruffle some feathers too deeply.

Don

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:30 PM

An Irish song is one that:
   
   (a) Is written in Ireland, no matter what it is about.
   
   (b) Is written by an 'Irish' person, no matter how many generations removed from Ireland.
   
   (c) Is about Ireland, in even the vaguest fashion.
   
   (d) Sounds as though it MIGHT be about Ireland.
   
   
   Regarding (b) I note mention of Stephen Foster above, and I have seen somewhere that he may
   have had Irish ancestry, therefore his songs must be Irish.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:21 PM

G'day McGrath of Harlow,

"... I'm sure I read somewhere in a thread about someone who got told off by Greek listeners when he called the instrument he was playing "a bouzouki". ..."

Perhaps the Greeks are starting to get a bit overly territorial (and precise) about the Turkish instrument that came back to Greece with the Greek nationals expelled by the Turks in the 1920s. About 40 years ago, I was experimenting with a small guitar body - and re-strung it as an 8-string instrument, with 4 courses, or pairs of strings. Once I had it making interesting, if not terribly traditional, sounds I happened to have it out when a family friend - a Greek Cypriot who had migrated to Australia post WW II - saw it ... and immediately declared that it was a bouzouki! In fact, I wonder if he had come across makeshift conversions of old instruments, on Crete ... not all that different from mine.

If the instrument had not finally crumpled up somewhere in my interstate rovings between construction camps ... I would probably have ended up restringing it to something in the Irish bouzouki group of tunings (instead of the all-octaves, re-entrant, tuning I ended up with ... a sort of 8-string bass ukulele!).

I had never, back then, even seen a bouzouki - or its saz or ud ancestors ... but Andy (Angelou .. ?) Pavlakis has quite happy that it fitted well enough into the category, so the lack of a deep 'lute' bowl didn't worry him at all.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Pat Cooksey
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 07:57 PM

As it happens I sing many songs which are not Irish, some I wrote
in England, The Reason I Left Mullingar, The Streets of Ennis, and many more.
The most well known of my songs The Sick Note, or Why Paddy's not
at work Today, was also composed in England, but it seems to have
spread worldwide as a traditional Irish song.
Nice to see Seamus Kennedy on this thread, happy New Year my friend.
On my new C.D. is Song for the Mira, not an Irish song but I like it,
the royalties are on the way.
Happy New Year to you all,

Pat.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: goodbar
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 07:51 PM

i really don't care if a song is irish, english, scottish, american, australian, or kenyan as long as it's good.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 07:34 PM

"In fact, I maybe somewhat of an offender, in that I sing many of these songs without acknowledging that they are not Irish."

I don't think you have to state that a song is not Irish when you sing them. If you claimed them as Irish knowing they're not, that might be another matter.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 07:18 PM

A nameless guest says:
"I believe these threads--never begun by Irish posters, mind--are a form of anti-Irish bigotry, just as the "Irish weren't Celts" sorts of threads are. You never would see this sort of thread about any other nationality in the folk scene, and these threads certainly have more than wee bit of Brit triumphalism to them, don't they?"

Anti-Irish bigotry? I have been in an English field where 30,000 odd English folk sat and roared out Anti-British songs in chorus with the Dubliners. It didn't occur to me until the next day to ask what would happen if an English group went to Ireland and did an evening of anti-Irish songs. I doubt if they would have survived, let alone had people joining in the choruses. Then I realised. It couldn't happen, of course. The English don't write anti-Irish songs. (Though they do tell stupid Irish jokes which are rarely funny and rarely relevant to the Irish).

Frank

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:57 PM

"Drink a Round to Ireland"

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:46 PM

Tradition doesn't have to mean all that old. After all, tThe Mudcat has its traditions, such as that any thread involving Ireland has at some point to involve some people getting hot under the collar. Actually, it sometimes seems, any thread about anything...

The remodelled bouzouki has now been around long enough to be a part of tradition. That's why the intensely and aggressively traditional organisers of the Fleadh Ceoil include it in the range of competition instruments, along with the banjo and all the other 20th century innovations.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:29 PM

I always suspected those French....

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:24 PM

No evidence of bagpipes in Scotland (or anywhere else in Britain) prior to the Crusades, apart -perhaps- from a single (reportedly) Roman carving found in England. The pipes probably arrived in Scotland via England (where they appear earlier in surviving records) or, for those to whom that likelihood is distasteful, just possibly France.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 06:08 PM

Re Bouzoukis:

I'll accept the style of playing as Irish. I'll even accept the notion of an "Irish Bouzouki". But I won't accept the notion that a Bouzouki is a traditional Irish instrument any more than a banjo is a traditional Irish instrument or a guitar for that matter. I'll grant that they have styles of playing about them that is unique to Irish performers but those instruments came elsewhere from different traditions.

Kind of like my statement and firm belief that it is the singing that is the tradition and not the song.

When bagpipes are mentioned people first duck and run but then they assume that they are talking about Scottish Bagpipes. I can think of several cultures where the bagpipes exist but people only assume that we are talking of Highland pipes. When did the peipes come to Scotland? Was it before the Crusades? Did they come in with the Romans?

Don

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 05:57 PM

Speaking as an Irishman, I'm not in the least offended by this thread.
In fact, I maybe somewhat of an offender, in that I sing many of these songs without acknowledging that they are not Irish.
Does being Irish and singing a non-Irish song make the song Irish, if only for the duration of the song?

Seamus

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 05:42 PM

I notice that 'The Star of the County Down' is at the top of the list provided by GUEST as the 20 greatest Irish. Well, this is definetely an Irish song but it comes from a tune family which almost certainly comes from England - slow it down and you get 'Dives and Lazarus', a song noted in 16th century London, though it may not be the same one of course. Still, it's a distincive and unusual title.

I have a fabulous CD by a group called the 'York Waites' which claims that the Scottish tune 'Cock of the North' similarly comes from a 16th-century English one. What a bunch of stirrers!

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 05:20 PM

I'm sure I read somewhere in a thread about someone who got told off by Greek listeners when he called the instrument he was playing "a bouzouki".

In a way, since the instrumenmt was exported to Ireland and to its neighbours, it's evolved back into something much closer to a version of the cittern, though with only four courses of strings. It really bears relatively little relation to the original Greek instrument, either in structure, tuning or technique of playing. Only it's kept the name, perhaps because it sounds like bazooka, with all those tough associations - even if it may cause a few problems at immigration security these days. (Maybe best describe it as "a kind of guitar" to avoid misunderstandings.)
...............................
"The subject matter of the songs is Ireland or the Irish way of life" said Doug. Sometimes that's true enough, but often the subject matter isn't particularly Irish, and the songs are about aspects of life which are shared between Ireland and other places, and that's one reason they work so well.

Someone said "Why not a thread about English songs that aren't English?" I can't think of that many, but I'm sure there are some. There are plenty of American songs that have their origin elsewhere, but that's generally understood, and I don't think many American would take it as offensive to pick over the origins. I don't think things like "Song Links" are seen as too problematic.

But there are some songs which I think many people would assume were American to start with which aren't - "The Lily of the West" is one such. There might be a thread in that some time. Better started by an American though...

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Weasel Books
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 04:37 PM

Actualy, I think a fair point can be made for the bozouki being a traditional Irish instrument. The Irish one has evolved into a different beast than it's noble predecessor.

Does anyone (maybe Johnny Moyinihan) even use Greek Bowlbacks anymore?

BTW I had seen advertised a CD of Greatest Irirsh Folksongs, including "Goodnight Irene"!!

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: MartinRyan
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 03:46 PM

Squeezeldy has it about right, I reckon!

Regards

p.s. The Maid of Cabra West.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 03:29 PM

I'm surprised no one has hit upon "Belfast Mill" yet, or I probably missed it in the reading. Actually it is "Aragon Mill" by Si Kahn and it is quite new in the scheme of things. I did Aragon Mill once and was told that I did it wrong, wrong, wrong and I should learn things better.

Because an Irish band like "The Dubliners" or "Christy Moore" sings a song from another country and it becomes popular enough for others to do it (Like Sonny's Dream by a Canadian named Ron Hynes) then it becomes Irish by osmosis. (Altho' I do ponder why Sonny's Dream is done the way it is and not the way Ron wrote it. Do we blame that on Hamish Imlach who appears to have brought Sonny to Europe?) Like when I read about Brian MacNeil playing the Bouzouki, a tradional Irish folk instrument. They apparently never saw the movie, "Zorba the Mick".

I've always looked at music done by Irish bands as music done by Irish bands. Not necessarily Irish because of the artists.

And most of these songs mentioned are found the four books of "Songs Popular in Ireland" Ossian Press I think. They are usually reasonably well annotated in the back as to their history and point. of origin.

Don

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 03:26 PM

Thanks to all the contributors. I had been sure that the Derry Air was a tune collected in Ireland. I am not referiing to the words of Danny Boy. There are many lyrics put to that Air. Tom Jones version of Danny Boy is my own favourite!!

BUt we are so lucky to have had Bunting come along at the time he did and set a professional standard for collectore who came after him. And while you are at it you can add "The Rose of Tralee" to the songs that are not of Irish origin.

By any chance would anyone have information on traditional songs collected by John Strachan and Dr. Dick Henebry in the Isle of Man around 1912 ?

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 02:48 PM

This is developing into one of the better Mudcat threads I have read recently. Guest petr, I hope you sign up and join Mudcat. It would be lovely to have you posting here. You raised an interesting point. My one experience of a jam/song swap with Czech musicians, was one of the highlights of my many years on the road.
Squeezeldy, I really enjoyed your post too. I would like to say that I think you have described a sort of snobbery about how certain people see themselves as superior listeners/performers, simply on the basis that they know older songs. I am sure you are as discerning as anyone. You just entered the same room through a different door. Your ears have remained open to music which is new (to you) although you started out listening to what I might disparagingly call "The Irish Pub Greatest Hits"... I earlier mentioned "Molly Malone", which certainly began life as a commercial song. However, it has now been around and sung by generations, qualifying it (in my book) as a traditional Irish song. I mean that in the sense that Irishmen themselves accept it as part of their culture.
It has been an interesting and fruitful discussion and I am looking forward to learning more.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 02:24 PM

I found this on Amazon.

Noel McLoughlin 20 Best of Ireland  


1. Star of the County Down
2. Carrickfergus
3. Hills of Connemara
4. Travelling People
5. Follow Me Up to Carlow
6. Spancil Hill
7. Farewell to the Rhonda
8. Fiddlers Green
9. Song for Ireland
10. Lord of the Dance
11. From Clare to Here
12. Boys of Killibegs
13. Reason I Left Mullingar
14. Foggy Dew
15. Cliffs of Dooneen
16. Botany Bay
17. Town I Love So Well
18. Galway Races
19. She Moved Through the Fair
20. Wild Rover

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: pavane
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 02:23 PM

Black Velvet Band - first known version is set in Barking, LONDON.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: ranger1
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 02:16 PM

For some odd reason, many people that I know think that The Lakes of Ponchatrain is Irish. Being of both Quebecois and Irish descent, I find it mildly amusing, but not insulting. The beauty of folk music is that it migrates and evolves, and the people who listen to it listen because they enjoy it, no matter the origin or the age of the song or tune. I like finding out about the origins and folklore of the music, but it has nothing to do with my actual enjoyment of the music. Thank you, McGrath of Harlow, for starting an interesting thread.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Marje
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 02:06 PM

I don't see anything derogatory or bigoted about being interested in songs' origins, or trying to analyse the phenomenon of the "non-Irish" Irish song.

There's a big difference between (on one hand) vaguely Irish songs that are about Ireland or that have been written to express Irish sentiments and (on the other) songs that have been written by Scots, English, Australians etc about their own cultures but which are being passed off as Irish.

Why does it matter? Because it's fair and honest to give credit to the source or composer whenever possible.

And there's another reason: The English (as has been remarked already) are often a bit embarrassed and ignorant of their own traditional songs. If some of the best of these are passed off as Irish, the less informed English audiences will continue to believe that all the good songs and tunes are Irish and that the English tradition has nothing worth listening to.

When I hear songs with dubious Irish credentials sung in exaggerated pseudo-Irish accents by English or American singers, I can't help thinking of how we once used to accept white men with blacked-up faces singing "negro" songs. Some day, maybe, we'll care enough about our own and each other's cultures to stop accepting the Plastic Paddy thing either.

Marje

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 01:22 PM

to the person above who said the only time they saw people get together and sing was among Irish people, Id say you havent gotten out much. Many of my Czech friends often get together and sing folk songs (Czech ones, or what they call tramp songs) My grandad used to go to the pub daily and often they would sing drinking songs.
Im sure that was fairly common all over central and eastern Europe.

what about fiddle tunes, or instrumental tunes written in the tradition by non-Irish people, or second generation folks like Liz Carroll. Tunes such as Brenda Stubberts (CapeBreton tune by Gerry Holland) which I heard in a Galway session. (As well as other Canadian or Scottish tunes that have made it into the Irish repertoire)

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: DougR
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 01:02 PM

When my wife and I were in Ireland last Fall we had an opportunity to hear some sessions and on one occasion a group performing in a Restaurant/Pub atmosphere in Dublin. The group included some of the songs included in this thread without identifying those that were, or those that were not written in Ireland by Irish composers. I suspect the reason for this is the group plays to tourists who expect to hear those songs. Another reason is, many of them are good songs!

I don't think for a minute Kevin started this thread because any bias against the Irish. Why would he, he's Irish?

I question, though, if it is important whether or not the song was actually composed by a Irish composer born and bred in Ireland. The subject matter of the songs is Ireland or the Irish way of life, and that, it seems to me, is the most important consideration.

Some of you perform regularly, and I'm sure you tire of performing certain songs, even grow to hate them, as demonstrated by several posters who put the Unicorn Song in this category. That begs the question, though, whether the role of the performer is to perform what the paying public wants to hear, or perform only those songs the performer wants to sing or play.

Thread creep, I know, and Kevin I apologize. I cannot offer any songs for the thread.

DougR

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: squeezeldy
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:59 PM

This is a very interesting thread. At the risk of bringing fire down upon my poor little gray (or grey, as it were) head, let me speak in defense of all those non-Irish Irish songs, regardless of what we think of them, their origin, or the categorization of such...
Many of them were, of course, of Tin Pan Alley and dance hall origins. Yes, they were written to exploit sentiment, stereotpyes, bigotry and anything else that would make a dime. Many of them were truly awful, and died natural and unlamented deaths. Others endured through merit--musical, literary, or emotional--and because of real or fictitious beliefs about them. But here are a couple of thoughts.
1. Many of the Irish immigrants in America were maintaining traditional music, in their lives, but not making any money at it. So, some of them wrote music for publication and performance in dance halls and taverns, which enabled them to live long enough to preserve genuine ITM in this country. Eventually, interest in true Irish music arose, and lo, here were the people with the memory and the music, ready to pass it all on.
2. Many of us--alas, I must count my sullied soul here--were brought to a genuine love for "real" Irish songs and music through the back door of pseudo-Irish Tin Pan Alley stuff. In the quest to learn more about the music, I found out amazing things, heard beautiful and meaningful songs, and became more and more drawn into true Irish song. Does that diminish my value as a performer and lover and listener? Sure, lots of people think so, because they value the "pure drop" and worry about what is real and what isn't. That's how we get fascinating conversations like this.
Pax

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Bert
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:42 PM

I think that "Still I Love Him" was collected from Suffolk, does anyone know for sure?

And there's also "Irish" songs written by Mudcatters from all over. I know 'cos I've written a couple myself and I'm only 1/8th. Irish, and I'd just love it if I heard anyone say that they are Irish songs.

It's great that such a powerful tradition not only keeps singing but also spreads around the world.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: skarpi
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:20 PM

How about Whystling gypsy rover that s from Scotland?
I am told.
all the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 12:05 PM

"Tramps and Hawkers" is maybe a song that sums it all up, in the verse:

I think I'll gang tae Paddy's Lan', I'm makin' up my mind
For Scotland's greatly altered noo, I canna raise the wind
But if I can trust in Providence, if Providence should prove true
I'll sing ye's a' of Erin's Isle when I come back to you.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Weasel Books
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:36 AM

I don't think this thread was started with bigotry in mind. Is it bigotry to talk about the real origins of a song? Has anyone said Irish CAN'T sing them?

So many of the songs in the irish tradition are Scottish anyway, but they are still GOOD SONGS.

Just scanning the back of a Dubliner's recording, here are a few:

The High Reel (Lord MacDonald, Lord MacDonald's March to Harlaw).

Tramps and Hawkers.

Banks of the Roses.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Bernard
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:31 AM

Well, I for one cannot see anything dereogatory in McG's original post which started this thread.

If some people want to twist it into something inflammatory, then we shall just ignore them - after all, they only get their kicks from upsetting people!! ;o)

There are lots of songs which have been mis-labelled 'traditional' in the past - Pete Coe's 'Wizard of Alderley Edge' immediately springs to mind.

The 'folk process' is alive and well - it doesn't really matter where the songs originate if they stand the test of time... except, of course, those songs which are subject to copyright, which then is a legal matter, not just a passing interest.

I say 'it doesn't really matter' in the sense that the song itself isn't affected, just one's interpretation of it... maybe! If people want to pigeonhole something, they will - despite any evidence to the contrary!!

Interestingly, there is a school of thought which believes 'Hard Times' originated in Ireland, and Stephen Foster 'borrowed' it... many songs and poems attributed to Robert Burns are also believed to have originated elsewhere... did Shakespeare write his plays... ??!

Without irrefutable proof, much of it is hearsay - even 'irrefutable proof' has been later discredited!

So perhaps we should just enjoy people's opinions for what they are without being so judgemental - they serve to enrichen our education if we use them as a basis for discussion!

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 11:04 AM

Stir, stir, stir.

The ability of the Irish singing tradition to adopt and nurture songs from all over the place is something to be proud of. Fortunately songs don't have to carry passports, and noone's entitled to ask you for a passport before you're allowed to sing them either. There's some who might wish they could, I suspect.

It's interesting to know where a song came from, the same way it's interesting to know where a person comes from, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't both be made welcome regardless.

If people fall into the trap of assuming that just because they hear someone from Ireland sing a song that means it must be a song that originated in Ireland, that's just a reflection of what alanabit mentioned, the fact that there's more of a living Irish singing culture than there is in some places.
.........................

Looking through the songs in this thread it occurs to me there are three types of "Irish songs which aren't Irish" - there are those by non-Irish writers, but written as consciously Irish songs. Or maybe "Oirish" songs. These are mostly American, but a fair number from Engand. One that hasn't been mentioned is "A long way to Tipperary". Some of these are pretty dire, but every now and then there's a good one, and that then moves over into a second category.

And that is, songs which have been picked up and get sung in Ireland because people see them as good songs, wherever they come from they get adopted and naturalised.

And the third category is, the songs which are common to the tradition in Ireland and Great Britain, and noone knows where they started.

I'm always pleased that one of the most widely used sets of song books are the four Ossian volumes of "Folksongs and Ballads popular in Ireland", with the remark by the editor in the Introduction "The purpose of this book is to provide you with the song that are actually popular in Ireland". And even though the books don't even set out to be scholarly, they have the notes at the back which indicate the songs that camed from overseas, and where they came from.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Hollowfox
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 10:55 AM

Funny, I just finished a very readable book on the song Danny Boy and it's origins over the holidays. It was a more tangled skein than I thought. (sic) by Malachy McCourt, Running Press, 2002 ISBN 0762411244

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 10:25 AM

Actually guest, this thread was started by an Irishman. I have at least read your post, or posts in full. I wonder if you might do the rest of us the same courtesy before going off at half cock!

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Michael
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 09:55 AM

'The Irish have a strong, vital LIVING folk music tradition.'
And that GUEST,as I see it, is partly the point of the thread.
Mike

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 08:56 AM

michaelr, you hit the nail on the head.

I believe these threads--never begun by Irish posters, mind--are a form of anti-Irish bigotry, just as the "Irish weren't Celts" sorts of threads are. You never would see this sort of thread about any other nationality in the folk scene, and these threads certainly have more than wee bit of Brit triumphalism to them, don't they?

I do put that down to jealousy. The Irish have a strong, vital LIVING folk music tradition, not just a hobby/museum tradition like the Brits and Americans and most other Europeans have.

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Lanfranc
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 07:52 AM

I have often wondered what Sam Larner - the Norfolk singer from whom the Wild Rover was collected - would have made of the later notoriety of that song. Personally, I do tend to become a bit anally retentive about misattributions, and, for one reason or another that is something which happens frequently where Irish singers and musicians are concerned. They are not the only culprits (I could cite a certain Fr*d W*dl*ck!), but they just seem to do it more often!

More examples of non-Irish songs: John O' Dreams (Bill Caddick / Tchaikovsky); My Lady's a Wild Flying Dove (Tom Paxton)

But, what the hell, as someone said above, at least the songs and tunes are being kept alive by being sung and played! A moratorium of, say, ten years would be good for some though IMHO, Wild Rover and Athenry in particular!

Alan

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 07:46 AM

Black is der colour!
Zis is my last territorial claim!

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: GUEST,Mandotim
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 07:17 AM

Galway Farmer, by Steve Knightley of Show of Hands?
Tim

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: s&r
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 04:48 AM

Bread and Fishes (sometimes under other titles) Alan Bell

Subject: RE: Irish songs which aren't Irish
From: Gurney
Date: 03 Jan 05 - 04:21 AM

The Curragh of Kildare springs to mind.
However, I think all other folksingers help the misconceptions, because of the 'pub-Irish' accent we adopt when singing an Irish song.

The Irish, of course, sing EVERYTHING with an Irish accent regardless of origin, so if we learned the song from them, we do tend to perpetuate the notion.

This slant on the thread reminds me of a short-lived group I was in. Our first-half closer was 'The Banana-Boat Song,' but claiming that we learned it from a poor recording, we sang it in upper-crust English accents, whilst wearing bowler-hats and carrying umbrellas.
Hope no-one learned it from us.