BS: How soon next American Civil War ?

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 01:14 PM

He was/is the greatest republican of all.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 09:35 AM

Lincoln made it clear that his main goal was to preserve the Union. To quote kendall above "Lincoln said that if he could preserve the union by freeing the slaves he would do it. He also said if he could save the union by NOT freeing the slaves at all, he would do it."

Lincoln believed that slavery was wrong. He also believed that the federal government did not have legal authority to end slavery where it already existed. When the time came that he thought it would help win the war and thus preserve the union he issued a proclamation to free the slaves in those parts of the country still in rebellion. Like you said, it didn't free any slaves anyplace where the federal govt was in a position to enforce it. It was a bold gamble, some thought that half the union army would lay down their arms and go home.

I do not worship at the alter of Lincoln but I do have great respect for what he accomplished. He was president during the worst crisis this country has seen and got us through it. He bungled a great many things but prevailed in the end. I also think the crisis was unavoidable though I respect the opinion of those who feel otherwise.

I don't see how playing up the slavery issue sanitizes anything. In my mind it makes it an even darker (apologies to Azizi) episode than if slavery were not involved at all.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 09:30 AM

Then why DID the south secede? I always thought it was a direct result of the Kansas/Nebraska act.

Lincoln signed the Emancipation proclamation after the battle of Antietam, and as you say, it applied only to the slaves that were under confederate control. He wanted to open a second front hoping the slaves would rise up and give Jeff Davis another problem to deal with.
Lincoln was never the anti slavery zealot that the press made him out to be. His big thing was to preserve the union, and that's why the northern soldiers went to fight.

I often wonder what would have happened if the south had won the battle of Antietam, and England had come into the war on the side of the south.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 08:33 AM

Well, Capt'n, if Lincoln was so interested in "freeing the slaves" why di he wait until 3 years into the war to do so???

And why did this executive order only free the slaves held in "Confederate" states, which BTW, at the time of this order wasn't part of the union??? Little known or remembered is that the border states of Kentucy, Missouri, West Virgina, Marland and Delaware, all union states, continued slavery after the so-call emaniciaption...

The slavery issue has been way overplayed to sanitize our nation's greatest screw-up... This isn't history... This is mythology... "Honest Abe", my boney hillbilly butt... Just another liein' politican...

But, hey, that's just my opinion...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 08:29 AM

Ron - I don't think we will ever agree, but we ought to be able to communicate on this issue. It's not the fact that the immigrants are Hispanic, it's just the never ending number of them.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 06:55 AM

Rig--

In Haiti, the slaves overthrew their oppressors. Do you really think there's a parallel with the US now?   Sounds to me as if your paranoia is getting the best of your judgment. As I've said, many whites in the South were afraid of blacks--(under slavery they had some reason for this--do you think slaves should be content?) But some whites still are afraid. We've also had dire predictions with Irish and Italian immigrants, and others. And who could forget that old favorite, the "yellow peril"?

Somehow the terrible danger presented by recent immigrants to those who came before has always come to nothing. There's no reason to think it will be any different with the current wave of Hispanic immigrants.

Let the rabid Republicans hang out the "Mexicans Go Home" sign. People who think should not be falling into line behind them.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:37 PM

Lincoln would have talked with the southern leaders. The southerners would only agree to meet with Lincoln as official delegates of the sovereign nation The Confederate States of America. This was something Lincoln could not agree to. His position (and there were many who obviously agreed with him) was that the States had no right to leave the Union in the first place, let alone create another nation. Meeting with an official delegation would be tantamount to accepting that the southern states were no longer part of the Union.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:17 PM

Bobert. Are you saying that the lawful head of the US government should have kow towed to the rebels? Did Jeff Davis ever offer to "sit down" with Lincoln? No, they just started shooting at union soldiers.

Lincoln said that if he could preserve the union by freeing the slaves he would do it. He also said if he could save the union by NOT freeing the slaves at all, he would do it.

The leaders of the south made a bad mistake. The leaders of the north made a bad mistake. The southerners didn't think Lincoln would be elected, and the northerns didn't think the south would leave the union if he was elected.

In any case, the south started the shooting war.

War. the ultimate failure.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:43 AM

"But the economics changed. By 1807, the British West Indies finally had as many slaves as the plantation owners wanted--saturation had been reached. There was also the example of Haiti--as to what could happen with a huge numerical imbalance in favor of slaves--and the British and Americans both noted that."

          Ron - These are all good points, and economics change all the time. The same concepts could be used to address the problems of illegal aliens coming into the US now. Haiti is a good example of where we are all likely to end up if something isn't done to curb human migration.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:19 AM

It is indeed "hard to know".

I don't like historical "what-if's"--find them pointless, by and large. But since the topic has been raised, it's not at all certain that if the colonies which became the US had instead stayed with the UK, a US civil war over the issue could have been avoided.

It was not just moral outrage which caused the vote to ban the slave trade to--finally--be successful in the UK----after many failures. ( When Johnson made his remark about "the yelps for liberty" he was in fact in the minority in the UK.)

But the economics changed. By 1807, the British West Indies finally had as many slaves as the plantation owners wanted--saturation had been reached. There was also the example of Haiti--as to what could happen with a huge numerical imbalance in favor of slaves--and the British and Americans both noted that.

In the American South it was a different situation economically--saturation was not an issue----but there was a similar fear of slave revolt--and a corresponding determination to keep slaves "in their place"--and no incentive to change from a slave-based economy.

It's not likely that the UK could have continued to refuse representation in Parliament to Americans. And the slave interests in the American South would therefore be represented in Parliament.   Since many were quite wealthy, this would be reflected in their power--as it was in the case of the West Indies. Combined with the pro-slavery votes still in Parliament, it's likely the ban on the slave trade would have been delayed--or at least not well enforced--as it was not by the US til 1860. And slavery, supported by UK cotton interests, as indeed happened during the actual Civil War, would have continued.


So the possible benefits envisioned by the hypothetical failure of the American war for independence might well not have occurred.

Obviously, we'll never know.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Uncle Boko
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 02:55 PM

Remember that without slavoury and poverty a good proportion of English and USAian folk songs would not exist!

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 09:48 PM

"...was that too high a price?"

                  Hard to know. Things might have gone a lot like other British colonies, like South Africa for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 01:25 PM

Different, quite possibly. Better or worse? Interesting to speculate. If the price of "unity" at that time was a terrible civil war a few decades down the line, followed by a century of racist repression, was that too high a price?

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 10:34 PM

"Surely the USA's greatest failure was to go along with slavery at the start."


                Maybe, but the USA has experienced other failures. Slavery was pretty much a fact of life by the time the USA become an entity, so it's ability to reject slavery at the start was very much limited. If the king had been able to divide the colonists over the issue of slavery at the outset, the result would surely have been very much different.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 02:05 PM

Surely the USA's greatest failure was to go along with slavery at the start. As Jefferson appreciated, when he declared in that context: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; (and) that His justice cannot sleep forever."

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 10:17 AM

Bobert - I agree with the spirit of what you say. It was a terrible tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 08:43 PM

Ahhhhh, sorry, folks.... I have been way too busy workin' and having busted computer and didn't realize that I was being beckoned...

But now that I am beckoned....

Okay, it should be obvious to anyone somewhat familiar with American history that the Civil War (which it wasn't) happened under Lincoln's watch...

With that painfully obvious fact, it would have taken a **great*** leader to avert the War for Southern Independence... A leader who was willing to take the trip to Charleston, S.C.... A leader not so full of testesterone and sabre rattling that he wouldn't have made it a ***point*** to try to resupply Fort Sumpter...

This is what great leaders do... Lincoln was the Goerge Bush of his time... He didn't make every effort to sooth... He allowed the country to split at the seems...

This is not what great leaders do...

I do not glorify a single battle of death of this debackle... This was the US's greatest failure... I don't go to the battlefields because it disgusts me... I do not buy into this glory thing... There was no glory in seeing Americans killing Americans...

Lincoln could have averted this... He even could have sat down with Jefferson Davis and said, "Okay, let's talk..."

He didn't... Just like Bush won't talk with Hammas... Or the Syrians....

Pride??? Yeah...

Stubborness??? Yeah...

War has never solved any single problem... Thay all end with one side figuring out that it should have talked with the other... No exceptions here...

Lincoln made the historically incorrect decison...

You folks may want to glorify the heck outta the War for Southern Independence-Civil War but 20,000 Americans were either killed or wounded at Antietam in one day by other Americans...

Yeah, anyone who wants to believe in the mythology that Lincon was a great leader, have at it...

...but leave thias hillbilly ouuta the Lincoln/ Civil War worship band wagon...

I'll walk, thank you...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 06:00 PM

Or Bush getting caught having a blow job??

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 05:34 PM

For a civil war we would need a tad more strident policies: like putting beer on the controlled substances list or requiring a Christian loyalty oath to work or buy food.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 04:20 PM

"And in fact slavery, especially the American version, was a very inefficient form of labour."

          That's true, and it's a lot like the labor of illegal aliens today. In a short period of time, their labor will no longer be needed and the goverment will be stuck with the support of them.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:23 PM

I"m waiting for the war between the reasonable and the fundies... that would test my pacifism to the limit!

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Naemanson
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 04:11 AM

There will be no civil war. To have a civil war you have to have enough people who CARE! We don't have it. Most Americans slop up the crap fed to them in sound bites from the TV and think all is well.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:15 AM

Inefficient perhaps, but cheap. I've seen some of the slave housing-not much money put into it, trust me - in Virginia, the ones I saw and lived with (one in Stuarts Draft, the other close to Staunton)had packed dirt floors; if all you had to provide was food - and some of the slaves grew their own gardens - and most of the clothing they wore they wove themselves, there wasn't all that much outgo.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:09 PM

I think it is pretty certain that the British Navy would have made a resumption of the slave trade impossible. Especially since this would have been extremely popular in the country.

And in fact slavery, especially the American version, was a very inefficient form of labour.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 06:10 PM

I didn't realize -or internalize - until recently that slave importing was against the law all over the US and had been for some time. The law, however, had no teeth (President Buchanan (president preceding Lincoln) said publicly that he would never convict a slaver) and so everybody did pretty much what they wanted. In the South, of course, they perceived a need for the trade- their economy demanded cheap labo(u)r and a lot of it. The industrialized North didn't have that need and evidently the abolitionist movement found fertile ground there.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:11 PM

Slavery would have spread to most of the western states, at least those where slavery was a workable form of labor. And why wouldn't they have started up the slave trade again? Some 1860's George Bush could have gotten elected, and they would have simply ignored the laws.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM

"If the South had won, there would be more people of African descent in North America today than there are people of European descent."

How do you make that out, Riginslinger? I don't think there'd have been any possibility of them starting up the Atlantic Slave Trade again, even if they'd wanted to. Slave Traders were classed as pirates in law internationally, and they'd have been treated as pirates.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 11:22 AM

BTW, Bobert, I'm not itching for an argument. I have read several comments by you alluding to this and have wondered about it. I am interested in some specifics.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 09:22 AM

Bobert, where are you?

Please see kendall's question from above: "Bobert, how did Lincoln help bring on the Civil War? "

I have wondered this as well.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: GUEST,St. Utter
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:01 AM

I thothought the secession was wowhere you poplay infoformally?

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 07:41 AM

Strom Thurmond would have been president. SHUDDER

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 07:33 AM

More servants to go round?

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:07 PM

If the South had won, there would be more people of African descent in North America today than there are people of European descent.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:09 PM

What if the South had won??

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:05 PM

I'm one of them. If this isn't a civil war, I don't know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:29 PM

"Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:26 PM

Which reminds me, many of you folkies were predicting prior to the elections in Iraq that the country would be ravaged by Civil War before elections took place. Is it over yet?"

Shall we really answer this now?

Hooboy.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:47 PM

But in the American Revolutionary War surely both sides were fighting to control "the whole country". (The Colonies were not part of the United Kingdom.)

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: MMario
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 02:43 PM

no - technically if one side is fighting for *independent* rule rather then to take over/govern the entire country it is not a "civil" war.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 02:39 PM

I'd agree about the French and Indian War - but for the others, one side may have viewed it as a war of independence/secession, but the other would have seen it as a Civil War.

In these kind of cases it is the outcome that determines what it's called. "War of Independence" if the secessionists win, "Civil War" if they fail.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: MMario
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM

Neither the French and Indian War or the War of American Independence were "civil" wars as based on the definition.

Nor, Was the American Civil War - as it was fought tyo succede (sp?) and to class as a civil war it would need to have been fought to gain control of the whole country rather then form their own independent country.

And "Civil" as in war - has nothing to do with "civil" as in polite. they are actuallly two differnt

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 01:33 PM

I don't know how I missed this one. Bobert, how did Lincoln help bring on the Civil War?

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:40 AM

I'm sure its a bargain, but I wouldn't fight a civil war over it.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:22 PM

Better not get into the subject of predictions, Doug. Remember the predictions you made as to the possibility of making war on Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: DougR
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:26 PM

Which reminds me, many of you folkies were predicting prior to the elections in Iraq that the country would be ravaged by Civil War before elections took place. Is it over yet? Yeah, thread creep I know.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: DougR
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:23 PM

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:20 PM

Ann Coulter is amongst us! what a pathetic stupid bombastic bitch!

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM

Hey, it's like a rerun of I Love Lucy

It's Liberal hand wringing time, brought to you by Al Franken.

Airamerica can't even get an outlet in Chicago. Oh, wasn't that a blue state? No one is listening. However, there are 300 radio stations, many 50K watters in big markets thankfully airing Michael Savage.

No, thank you Frank. I live in a blue state and this time did not vote Democratic. And thankfully, we do not have Frankenstein for President with his multi-zillionair wife. Maybe I'll vote Democratic next election, if they can get a candidate who maybe will piss off socialists like yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:42 PM

My wife just told me that she won't be wearing a hoop skirt either this time around.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:29 PM

The game is afoot! I heard that one of those grand conspiracy guys who finances political campaigns is already financing informal (practice?) Constitutional Conventions.

This time around we're not going to do that blue and grey thing though. I think we're going to have uniforms designed by the "Queer Eye For The Straight Guy" guys. They promise to be far more stylish than the first uniforms were -- PLUS no wool!!!. All that scratchy discomfort won't be adding to the discomfort of war.

And we're promised better food this time -- and absolutely nobody gets limbs sawed off with a dull saw. But we'll keep the morphine. We liked that one first time around and it made for some great folk music like Soldier's Joy.

And I think we'll fight the war via reality show. We'll have teams of four guys chosen to represent both sides. No guns! The goal will be to shame and embarrass the other side into surrender.

It's going to be tough though. How do you embarrass a redneck? ...and have you seen east and west coast fashion? --no way could you embarrass anyone who dresses like that.

Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:40 PM

Three years. Tops.