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BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter

Richard Bridge 16 Feb 05 - 01:20 PM
Wolfgang 16 Feb 05 - 01:27 PM
Bunnahabhain 16 Feb 05 - 01:29 PM
jacqui.c 16 Feb 05 - 01:30 PM
Richard Bridge 16 Feb 05 - 01:34 PM
Wolfgang 16 Feb 05 - 01:39 PM
Layah 16 Feb 05 - 01:41 PM
Layah 16 Feb 05 - 01:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Feb 05 - 01:46 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Feb 05 - 03:08 PM
akenaton 16 Feb 05 - 03:26 PM
Peace 16 Feb 05 - 03:30 PM
The Villan 16 Feb 05 - 03:38 PM
akenaton 16 Feb 05 - 03:50 PM
Strollin' Johnny 16 Feb 05 - 04:04 PM
GUEST 16 Feb 05 - 04:19 PM
Richard Bridge 16 Feb 05 - 06:48 PM
Col K 16 Feb 05 - 07:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Feb 05 - 07:38 PM
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Little Hawk 16 Feb 05 - 09:08 PM
GUEST 16 Feb 05 - 10:17 PM
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GUEST,McGrath of Harlow 17 Feb 05 - 05:32 AM
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McGrath of Harlow 22 Feb 05 - 01:46 PM
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Subject: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:20 PM

That should end "reporter".

I'm surprised my search does not turn up a reference to this recent incident. KL (the London mayor) was hassled leaving a party, by a news reporter. As far as I know, at first he had no idea the reporter was Jewish.

KL has been hounded by reporters from the Mail/Standard group for years. The Mail/Standard group is very right wing (by UK standards). They are out to get him by fair means or foul - because he is fairly left wing. I don't know if he knew at first that this reporter was from the Mail/Standard group.

I'm not sure if I have the remarks of KL in the correct order, but I think the exchange went roughly: -

[unspecific hostile question]

[remark by KL that that was like a Nazi war criminal]

[reporter says (roughly) "Actually I'm Jewish and I find that offensive"]

[KL says (roughly) "Well your conduct is still like a concentration camp guard, doing anything to follow orders"]

Upshot - the British Board of Deputies (a Jewish religious body) has reported KL to the Standards Commission for alleged anti-semitism. This body has power to oblige KL to resign as the mayor of London.

By all means post the exact words if you have them, but it looks a bit OTT (over-the-top) as a reaction to the exchange, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:27 PM

The reporter, Oliver Finegold, revealed he was Jewish, and Mr Livingstone replied: "Ah, well you might be, but actually you are just like a concentration camp guard. You are just doing it because you are paid to, aren't you?" (Guardian)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:29 PM

I   think the issue is not so much his comment, but the fact the next day he refused to apologise, or even acknowledge that the comment may be   offensive. Which would make the reason for resigning stupidity, rather than anti-semitism...

BTW, has anyone questioned what the party was for? To celebrate 20 years of Chris Smith (Labour, ex minister), coming out as the first openly gay MP. Is this just a party for the friends of the mayor, at taxpayers expense? Or a real celebration of diversity and tolerance, at taxpayers expense?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:30 PM

Sounds like the reporter was being a wee bit sensitive and precious for a newshound. Why should that person be so offended if they have been pushy/hostile. From what I can see this is an occupational hazard - they've got a reputatin for heavy handedness when they're after a story.

Since Livingstone apparently didn't mention race or creed why should the reporter think that he was being anti-semitic? I haven't much time for Livingstone, but have even less for those who think that they can behave as they wish but should be treated with kid gloves by those they 'attack'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:34 PM

What's to apologise for?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:39 PM

Time to say sorry (Guardian leader)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: Layah
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:41 PM

I find it hard to see how accusing someone of being like a Nazi would be anti-semetic. There isn't enough context here for me to really know what's going on, but he isn't in any way approving of anything the Nazi's did, in fact he is condemning both the reporter and the Nazis. And it doesn't seem like the religion of the reporter makes any difference to the interpretation of the remark. As for apologizing, it usually good practice to apologize when someone is upset regardless of the actual circumstances, so there he is being stupid. It rarely hurts to apologize, and usually makes people happier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: Layah
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:45 PM

Now that I read the article I slightly change my position. He definately should apologize. While his remark still doesn't look anti-semitic, it definately was offensive


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish rep
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:46 PM

It might be offensive, it was meant to be, but I can't actually see how it is in any way anti-semitic.

The impression get is that Ken must have been a little bit sloshed - I think sober he could have phrased it better.

I imagine his reluctance to apologise is because he feels it would be lying to say he hadn't meant to offend the reporter, because he did. That's the kind of lying apology that is pretty standard among politicians, and I can see why he is reluctant to make one of those. I understand he has said that he didn't set out to offend members of the Jewish community, and that he regrets it if such people really were offended.

The whole row feels synthetic to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:08 PM

Ken livingstone is decency personified. Only a scoundrel of the lowest type would make such a slur.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:26 PM

McGraths' right. I saw Blair on TV at lunchtime, he said he thought Ken should just "apologise and move on".

Typical phrase for Bliar, who doesn't know the meaning of the word principle.
Blair is a stranger to truth, he just doesn't understand the concept, how can we expect him to understand what motivates Ken Livingstone ..Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Peace
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:30 PM

F#ck off would have been more apt, IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: The Villan
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:38 PM

what a shame we are in a world where you daren't say anything anymore.

One prat can cost the livelyhood of another.

Its like treading on eggs to pamper to the prats of this world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:50 PM

Personally ,I hope Ken sticks to his guns and makes an issue of this.

If they try to force him to resign ,surely the people of London will protest "en masse".


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:04 PM

Ah, you're alive Les - did you get my e-mail?

Back to the subject in hand - Villan and Ake are right, and either the reporter is being deliberately thin-skinned because his employer opposes KL (very likely), or he really is thin-skinned (in which case he needs to grow a thicker one). And the idea of a 'sensitive' reporter really does beggar belief - they have to have a hide like a buffalo simply to do the job! LOL.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:19 PM

In the nineteen thirties the Daily Mail came out strongly in favour of fascism ;as far as I know it has never apologised .Throughout his political career Ken Livingstone has been a consistent and outspoken opponent of fascism.He is right not to apologize to the reporter who should be ashamed of himself for working for a paper like the Mail. The Nazis put the Finegold's co- religionists in concentration camps but before that they put the leftists in - the Ken Livingstone's of the day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:48 PM

Since it seems to be accepted that the remark was not racist, what is there to apologise for, and what is the agenda of the British Board of Deputies?

It seems to me that KL is wholly right to refuse to be bullied by a cynical attempt to play the race card.

I am reminded of a friend of mine from university many years ago, a chap called Ajit Deshpande. He used to satirise the race relations industry even then: if a bus was full, he would say "I'll report you to the race relations board". When he missed a double on the dartsboard - "I'll report you to the race relations board", when a bar-billiards ball took a peg - "I'll report you to the race relations board".

Why should Finegold devalue the coin of anti-racism by asserting racism in this manifestly spurious way? Why should the Board do likewise? Is it a cynical pay-back for some of KL's defence of Palestinians agains Israel in the past?


How sad it is that some people do the same thing without satirical intent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Col K
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:20 PM

Would Blair ask Ken L to apologise if the reporter had been of any other religion?
I doubt it.
Blair would not know the truth if it hit him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:38 PM

I think part of the idea might be that, when the decision is made to have the 2012 Olympics in Paris (or one of the other short-listed cities) instead of London, Ken Livingstone can be given the blame. That lets off the hook the governments who ground the place down, in all kinds of ways, for the last half of the 20th century - especially for the last 20 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: John O'L
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:31 PM

Any offense taken by either of them in that exhange is purely PR and deserves to be treated with the same contempt & cynicism with which it was conceived.
Politicians and reporters are thicker-skinned than that. Who do they think the're fooling?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:08 PM

Yes, it sounds like just another cynical (or knee-jerk) attempt to spuriously raise the race card when there's no real excuse for it. Has anyone noticed that if a black man or a Jew does things that wouldn't be deemed very nice if done by anyone else...and then someone points it out...that that someone gets accused of being either "racist" or "anti-semitic"?

I wonder what Sammy Davis Junior would have to say about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 10:17 PM

What a sick bunch of puppies. The only thing offensive - is the Dick's intentional attempt to create dissention by using the word Jewish as troll-bait in his subject line.

Go Back to the Sewers!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 10:20 PM

Just use the words
Nigger Spic or Jews
For liberals who choose
Good Lord its now news


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:32 AM

I imagine if he'd called him a "Folk Nazi" he'd have been in even worse trouble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:26 PM

Hello anonymous guest. What are you trying to say?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:13 PM

Or even a 'Folkin' Nazi' McG! ROFL!
S:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 04:45 PM

I'm glad I don't live in London.

I hear stories about like this about the anti-semitism there all of the time.

A lot of typical Mudcat comments here as usual. But if it was a gay instead of a Jew, I'm sure there would be a lot of defense of that offended reporter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:03 PM

Martin ...I'm one of you biggest fans, but your
talking PC shite this time.
Kens' a one of,...a politician with principles!!
He would never act in a bigotted or racist manner,dont always agree with him, but he's the real McCoy alright
If he thought either Jews , homosexuals, communists or even christians were being discriminated against, he would fight it with his last breath....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:39 PM

I think the whole situation is hilarious. Ken Livingstone has always been quick to accuse anyone who doesn't agree with him of being a racist. Now it has been turned on him. Serves the sanctimonious prig right. However, his support of the Palestinians does tend to veer towards anti-semitism, but that can also be said of a large chunk of the left.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:55 PM

So, again, where is the antisemitism in KL's remarks?

It takes a lot for MG to side with the Daily Mail!

Problems, MG?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: John O'L
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:56 PM

When the Israelis have gone on the offensive in a manner that is offensive, it is not anti-semitism to remark the observation.
Indeed, it would be (and is too often I fear) back-handed anti-semitism not to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:00 PM

Palestinians ARE semites, aren't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: John O'L
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:03 PM

I was wondering...


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:12 PM

Livingstone is always quick to highlight the plight of the Palestinians, which is fair enough. I agree with him. However, you have to take into account the plight of the jews and how the state of Israel came into existance. These are the most persecuted people in the history of the world. There are two sides in this conflict and it would do the left credit to remember that. The death of a Jew by a bomber is as outrageous as the death of a Palestinian by an Israeli soldier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:21 PM

True enough.

There are some other people who have been persecuted completely to the point of extinction. Among them were the Beothuks of Newfoundland, the Mohicans, and most of the Carib peoples in the Caribbean Islands, most of the indigenous people in Argentina, and most of the Hurons. You don't hear about it much, because they do not have monied representatives out there at the present time publicizing their cause for the purpose of political and territorial gain...


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:33 PM

glad you don't live in London, Martin?

England swings like a pedulum-doo......and don't you forget it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 08:06 PM

I was in London last year. It's not bad. I ran into some people there who were prejudiced against primates, but that's common. I punched them out. I would gladly go back to London anytime.

Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:36 AM

Livingstone's point, as I take it, was that the reporter should have known better than to collude in the activities of a company that was engaged in a pretty vicious kind of journalism, including a campaign of hate aimed at refugees and immigrants, and gypsies, as well as other minorities

Only a few days before, the Standard's sister paper the Daily Mail had given over its front page to attacking the apology given by Tony Blair to the Guildford Four and the McGuire Seven, falsely imprisoned for years as a result of the actions of agents of the British givernment.

Only yesterday the Daily Mail printed a quite staggeringly racist and vicious cartoon, which could have come straight out of the pages of Der Sturmer. They haven't put it up on their site yet, so you'll have to take my word for it for now.

I cannot see how there was anything whatsoever anti-semitic in telling the reporter that he was in some ways doing something analogous to working for the Nazis. Why did the fact that the reporter declared that he was Jewish be in any way relevant to that, as if somehow that was meant to prove that was above such criticism?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:52 AM

McGrath: comparing a Jew to a Nazi is the height of insensitivity.As soon as Nazi Ken realised what he had done, he should have said something along the lines of:"I didn't mean any offense, but if I did offend you, then I apologise." He didn't - which is telling. I think that Herr Livingstone, along with a lot of the Left, are prejudiced against the Jews. They quite like the Jews as victims, but when Jews assert themselves, then it is quite a different matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:56 AM

Here is the cartoon I referred to - thebone with the caption: "Highly contagious? Boy, am I glad I sneaked into Britain before your election," beneath the strapline Tories announce that they will introduce health checks for immigrants before allowing entry.

That gross picture of a hook-nosed alien with oozing sores coudl have come out of some Nazi sheet. Of course then it would have been intended to be a Jew, and now its supposed to be some other semite from the Middle East. That makes it OK? If you are talking about "offensive", I would suggest that that is what "offensive" in this context actually means. (And please, I am not suggesting that this cartoon was a reason for Ken's remarks, since it only appeared yesterrday - but it's an indication of the depths to which those particular papers can sink.)

Of course Ken was intending to offend that journalist, and it would be a lie to say he hadn't meant to offend. He clearly did mean to offend, and felt he had good reason, which were nothing to do with the journalist's Jewishness, and everything to do with teh way he earned his living.

He equally clearly had no intention of offending Jews in general, and h ehas already made that clear. If such people are offended, that is a matter for regret, and if he hasn't said that already I imagine he will do so.

But I would suggest that that cartoon should give them far more reason to feel offended. To make anyone feel offended.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,mooman at the backdoor
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 07:49 AM

Probably quite ill-advised especially on the tail of the Prince's major faux-pas and probably he should withdraw the statement as it has clearly offended many even if he did not intend it to do so.

What he should definitely not withdraw is the "scumbags" statement concerning the Evening Standard. I would have said worse were I in his shoes.

moo


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:09 AM

I think in many cases it's more a case of "a lot of people have taken offence".


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,Geraldo
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:55 AM

Remember when newsmen used to report the news instead of always trying to be the news?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: mindblaster
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 11:48 AM

"his support of the Palestinians does tend to veer towards anti-semitism"

Quote from penguins egg entry on this thread.

Eggo has lost the plot, both jews and palastinians are semetic. Also recognising that the Jewish state is the oppressor of the palestinian people is not anti-semetic. That's akin to saying that supporters of the British during The Falklands conflict were anti-catholic.

The whole thing has been taken out of context. The party that Ken was at, was mainly a gay & lesbian event. The creep reporter was sent to dig dirt. He was present throughout the party and insulted Ken several times swearing at him (can't remember the actual words) He was trying to bait him and persisted for one and a half hours clutching a recording device whilst trying to get ken to insult him. This was all reported in the press originally, but seems to have been conveniently forgotten by the mob PC knee jerk right wing dangerous idiots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:28 PM

The people who are stirring this appear to be primarily the very ones who normally go on about "political correctness gone mad" in any other context.

I'm sure that if the Daily Mail gets publicly slated for that vile cartoon, (and I hope they will) they'll describe the criticism as "political correctness gone mad", and go on about how critics have no sense of humour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 12:54 PM

I don't see why it is offensive to compare anyone's attitude (whether he/she is Jewish or not) with the attitude of concentration camp guards, if the two attitudes are comparable - which in this case, I believe they are.

Who says that a victim cannot become an oppressor? That is what KL was referring to.

The rest is PC claptrap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: ard mhacha
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 01:59 PM

Tho Daily Mail has been an opponent of Livingstone`s for years, it wasn`t before time that he lashed into this creep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:09 PM

The people of London know Ken too well, because he is one of the rare breed who says what he thinks. They also know that he will do his utmost to protect the rights and freedoms of minorities. A cause that has been a constant gripe of the Daily Mail.

Blair has beeen waiting for this moment since he had to do the enforced apology to Ken, when it transpired Ken wasn't the devil's spawn and the majority of voters believed him.

The Daily Mail are in fear of scraping their chins on the floor if they stoop much lower to try and discredit him.

I hope Ken apologises for the confusion his remark caused. But the reporter deserves nothing. He wanted to offend and he did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:56 PM

"...what is the agenda of the British Board of Deputies?" Richard, they seem to think they have sole rights to terms like "Nazi" and are entitled to exercise control over all use of such terms.

I'm much heartened by the tone of this thread. I feared Ken would be in for a slagging.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:01 PM

Just as we have garbage in other jobs and occupations, so too do we in the news business. Sad, but true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Nemesis
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:28 PM

I heard the tape of this exchange ... Ken sounded pissed (as in UK pissed i.e., had a few glasses of free alcohol) and the reporter just asked "how did it go?" (meaning the party)...

What followed was entirely an ungracious and needlessly aggressive response from Ken, that then just got worse with ratcheted up, and increasingly offensive, deliberately, provocative remarks to mild-mannered objections from the reporter. (Either that or the tape had been edited - and Ken hasn't denied the tape evidence of what he said).

Ken sounded like a stupid, ignorant, out-of-order prat - if he isn't, then a personal apology wouldn't come amiss to someone who was just doing a job .... would it be okay to abuse e.g. traffic wardens just because they are doing their jobs? Or e.g. doctors'receptionists because they are doing a job?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:33 PM

Mr. McG of H - it must be YOUR own racism that percieves the charactor in the cartoon as a JEW.

Since he is naked and feeling another guy - it is obvious to the rest of us that the rendering is GAY.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:40 PM

Nemesis you heard a tape of part of the exchange. It was shown on Uk TV and the reporter was well deserving of the response he eventually provoked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 09:09 PM

It seems only Rush Limbaugh can use the word nazi without rebuke.

Since when are nazi prison guards "off limits' for derisive comment?
Now that the USA tortures prisoners routinely I suppose being called a nazi prison guard here does not have the punch it used to have.

I am all for calling present day fascists Nazis, even though it is not accurate.

As for the reporter that brought his religion into the mix, there are in fact fascist Jews out there and he may or not be one of them.
IT is bad form to make reporters the story...unless you are right wing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 09:35 PM

Maybe it might have been more politic for Ken to have suggested that the journalist in question might get a job as a guard in Guantanamo or Bagram or Abu Ghraib...

Perhaps he could phrase his explanation along those lines.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 10:29 PM

I fear still get the impression that the reporter (and the Board) seem that feel that whether or not KL's remarks were otherwise defensible, the reporter should be exempted because he was Jewish.

Oh for the sense of a another partner in a firm in which I was once a partner. The conversation was of winter immunisations. Another person committed a spoonerism, intending to refer to his "Flu Jab". Quick as a flash, Ashley replied "You can't say that around here you know". He too was being self-satirising, being on a diet at the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: mindblaster
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 02:18 AM

Nemesis - The recording that you heard broadcast was made when Ken was leaving the party, the reporter had been baiting him for about an hour and a half prior to that.

The reporters agenda/orders was clear - "Go get some dirt"


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:45 AM

Would it be considered offensive if someone were to accuse an over demanding Black employer of being a slave driver?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:10 AM

I give up. Whatever i say, i'm going to end up offending someone...so i'd just like to take this oppertunity to declare that i hate everyone in the whole wide world with a passion, regardless of race, creed, sexual orientation or shoe size. You're all a bunch of b*****ds, and i despise each and every one of you! :0) There, sorted!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: EagleWing
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:15 AM

A few years ago I was teaching a year 6 class in an inner city school. A lad, who happened to be of mixed parentage, came to me and accused another boy of making racist remarks. I thought that was strange because normally the two of them were pretty friendly.

I asked the "offender" why he had made racist remarks, if he had actually done so.

It transpired that the conversation went something like this:

1st boy:   You need a wash!
2nd boy:   I'm not the one with black skin!

I asked both boys why it was more offensive to make the second remark than to make the first.

They agreed that both remarks were offensive and the following day were friends again.

But that could have turned into a major problem if the press or even the parents had known about it.

I don't know if it's really relevant to the discussion but it came to me as I read some of the posts here.

Frank L.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:15 AM

I mean, would it be considered offensive to Black people in general, rather than just to the individual being criticised?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:20 AM

Very good and pertinent example, EagleWing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:06 PM

If you read what Livingston has said you'll see that he never has used the word 'Nazi'. He has used the word 'German'. I've read many articles in the English press and the posts here in Mudcat and have not seen a single mention or realisation how easily in Britain the word 'Nazi' and the word 'German' can be exchanged for each other. Livingston could have said 'war criminal' (not only German have been war criminals and all the recent cases have come from somewhere else), he could have said 'Nazi war criminal' but he has said 'German war criminal' just as if the word 'German' can be used readily in Britain as an additional insult or to give a planned insult an extra impetus.

The British press and the good people of Mudcat would have commented had Livingston said 'Gypsy thief' insteda of only 'thief' and if he has said 'Irish terrorist' or 'Muslim terrorist' instead of only 'terrorist' but 'German war criminal' goes down well without even noticing.

Livingston being drunk is a very sad excuse, I doubt someone here would use that excuse in the case of a fatal car accident. To even mention it an excuse is completely irrelevant since Livingston the next morning didn't say sorry. Or do you want to imply that he is always drunk?

My impression is that many of you first lokk whether you like him and after having decided 'he's one of us' look for every lame excuse.

I don't think that he should apologise to Jews for anti-semitism, I do not see a good reason for that demand in this case, but I think he should apologise to an individual he has insulted with purpose. If he can't do that he loses as a politician and as a human. But I never had the impression that admitting an error was one of his strengths.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: EagleWing
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:41 PM

"I don't think that he should apologise to Jews for anti-semitism, I do not see a good reason for that demand in this case, but I think he should apologise to an individual he has insulted with purpose. If he can't do that he loses as a politician and as a human. But I never had the impression that admitting an error was one of his strengths."

I certainly don't think Ken should apologise to someone who had, apparently, been baiting him for an hour and a half. If he does so it declares him "open season" for any one who thinks it clever to throw insults at him.

I do think, though, that he might make a statement that he did not intend to insult the German nation.

On the other hand, I wonder how many of us would make stupid errors like that if we were placed under the same pressure that Ken was placed under (assuming that reports about the party were true.)

Frank L.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:56 PM

If Adolph and his friends had payed us a visit in 1941-2, we would not now be debating the niceties of political correctness...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 01:09 PM

I don't like Livingstone, but I like even less the harrassment that is taken as being the right of certain areas of the Press.

The analogy with a fatal road accident won't wash - it is illegal to drive a car under the influence of alcohol and anyone who does so and causes an accident is open to extreme censure. To have had a few too many at a party and to, maybe, snap as a result of a continuous barrage of unpleasantness is not the same thing. Has the reporter apologised for putting Livingstone under that sort of pressure? Has he suggested that he might have been over sensitive to the remarks made and may have taken them in a way that was not meant? It would appear that this man is making use of his ethnic background to score what points he could from what would seem to have previously been an unsatisfactory evening's work for him, in that he had been unable to get Livingstone to rise to the bait up to that point and to say something newsworthy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 04:03 PM

If you read what Livingston has said you'll see that he never has used the word 'Nazi'. He has used the word 'German'. I've read many articles in the English press and the posts here in Mudcat and have not seen a single mention or realisation how easily in Britain the word 'Nazi' and the word 'German' can be exchanged for each other.


Very true Wolfgang. Sadly very true. It is one of the worst aspects of much of the press, and large sections of society.

It (IMO) stems from the constant reminders of WWII. As it marked the end of empire, and the last time Britian was a significant world power, it becomes an easy reminiscence, and a form of Anti-Americanism, as it recalls a time when we weren't so dependant on the US.

But one would hope mudcat would be above such simple programming. The insults are normally fairly personal round here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 04:07 PM

I too can't see any particular reason to apologise to the individual. He giot a good storyn out of it, and it has probably helped his career, and he didn't suffer any harm whatsoever.   If that's the worst insult he's ever had he must have led a pretty sheltered life, which I somehow doubt.

Nor can I see how there is any insult implied towards Jews in generral, or towards the man himself, as a Jew. It'd make sense for Livingstine to say that, since some people seem to have taken it that way.

It's true enough he said "German" where "Nazi" would have been been more appropriate. I suppose logically be argued that most concentration camp guards in the War in fact weren't Nazis - but then many of them weren't German either. However given that the Nazis were in charge of it all that woudl have been a more appropriate term.

And since todays's German can't fairly be seen as carrying any blame for what their fathers (and in more cases their grandfathers) did, an expression of regret for that would make sense as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 04:33 PM

And another thing Wolfgang...

It seems quite hard to view a rich, educated country, like Germany as victims. Some of your examaples: 'Gypsy thief' instead of only 'thief', use small minorities that are easily seen as victims. It's alot easier to carelessly insult sucessful people, or groups as nobody believes it will matter.

As I know a large number of people here in Edinburgh who have came here from Germany to study or work, I will see what their views are.

Bunnahabhain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 06:13 PM

I must say I am amused by the idea that KL should apologise to the German nation. What a good manoeuvre! It would be a far better thing to do than to apologise to the journalist. But might it not be a bit like throwing petrol on the flames, in that some would undoubtedly suggest that he was apologising to the Germans for likening them to Jews?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 06:25 PM

He could do a 'to any people I have offended' apology, and leave it open to interpretation. Probably safer in the long run than setting himself up again.
Wonder how much bonus the reporter recieved for getting his paper so much coverage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: John O'L
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 08:01 PM

The reporter was using his Jewishness as a weapon.
Live by the sword...


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 08:12 PM

Right, and blacks use their color as a weapon and gay men use their sexual orientation as a weapon. What a dumb remark.

Do you use your Irishness as an excuse for some mental defieciencies?

Please get real.

I don't know Ken Livingstone and I don't want to.

Long live Mayor Daley


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: John O'L
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 08:22 PM

Martin -
Why do you think the reporter mentioned his Jewishness?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Gervase
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:00 AM

The Mail has consistently flirted with the far right - writing admiring leaders in praise of Hitler in the Thirties and even publishing a pattern for a black shirt so readers could show their support for Oswald Mosely!
The Standard, which was bought by the Mail from the Express, has had a rather more schizophrenic history. In the seventies and eighties it followed the tabloid pack in demonising 'Red Ken'. But under editor Max Hastings it enjoyed a level of political maturity and respectability that the Mail did not; to such an extent that the group's editor in chief, Paul Dacre, was continually irked by what he saw as the Standard's 'pink agenda'.
So, when Max retired, Dacre installed an editor who would do his bidding, and under Veronica Wadley the paper has lurched rightwards and downmarket, becoming what its own staff now dismissively call 'The Baby Mail'. With this has come a series of snide and vitriolic attacks on Livingstone, who still has a unique place in the right's pantheon of hate figures. I see no reason for Livingstone to apologise, and I see Finegold (a young freelance) as a naive pawn in the whole process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: breezy
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 06:25 AM

there is a song with a verse as follows


Now Goldberg ,he's a jewboy, an interesting chap.
Whenever he's not underground he wears his little cap.
he's not exactly powerful but he works until he dropw
And when we come to tally up ,its Goldie comes out tops.
Dont ask him about his family, he just goes kind of quiet.Dont ask him about the Germans.lest you want to start a riot.
But another tub of coal is another buried Hun
And he wont stop hauling coals intil we've won


Chorus
aint it hard, aint it hard
Bevin Boys they called us
'Down the mine ' they said.
They never gave us a uniform ,just a helmet for our heads.
But we're just as good as our brothers who are serving on the line
the Bevin Boys are working down the mine



The song is 5 verses long, this is v 4


it describes life being a Bevin Boy during WW11 in Britain!!

Only in recent years were they acknowledged and allowed to march at the Cenotaph

Guess what happened next as I was singing this in the street as recently as last Saturday.!!!!!

song 'Bevin Boys' by Tony Geen which won the Maidenhead Folk Club songwriting competition 2003


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 12:05 PM

To the ... journalist I say this. You are responsible for your own actions....

If the ...journalist had expressed regret for his behaviour on the street I would have been happy to withdraw my comments
(Livingstone, in the same press conference)

Does this man not realise that these two thoughts do not go well together?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 12:33 PM

They seem to go perfectly well together to me. Ken says that his comments were a response to the journalist's behavour, for which he was personally responsible (ie no "I was only obeying orders"), and that if he had expressed regret for that behaviour, he would have been happy to withdraw those comments.   

Where's the inconsistency? It's not as if Ken was saying that someone else was responsible for his actions or words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 01:46 PM

Reading that through, it gets a bit confusing, what with all those "he's". So again:

They seem to go perfectly well together to me. Ken says that his comments were a response to the journalist's behavour, for which the journalist was personally responsible (ie no "I was only obeying orders"). If the journalist had expressed regret for that behaviour, Ken said that he would have been happy to withdraw his own comments.   

Where's the inconsistency? It's not as if Ken was saying that someone else was responsible for his own actions or words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,Mk
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 01:46 PM

Its about time someone stood up to the racist press, even resulting from this - so well done to KL for this.

However it might be best for London if he says "no offence was meant but regrets any that may have been caused" and then with even more credibilty, make his political statement by continously and relentlessly championing the anti racism stance against racist media.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 02:06 PM

Surely that's more or less what he did say?

"...He added that over the past two weeks his "main concern" was for many Jewish Londoners, and regretted if his comments "may have been seen to downplay the horror and magnitude of the Holocaust".

"I wish to say to Londoners my words were not intended to cause such offence and that my view remains that the Holocaust against the Jews is the greatest racial crime of the 20th century...."


As for the suggestion that the newspaper group involved has any right to point accusingly at anyone for racism - once again I draw your attention to a vile racist cartoon which was published in the Daily Mail only last week.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 02:29 PM

And today he has gone to bat against the Mail again. You have to admire the man for his balls of steel!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 02:47 PM

McGrath,

in my eyes, the attitude 'I would withdraw my comments if the other guy first..." fits not well with 'You are responsible for your own actions'.

What hinders Livingstone to take responsibility for his own action and not to hide behind a 'he first' like any schoolboy found out.

I have never liked the newspaper involved, but Livingstone has lost in my eyes here too. If he feels he has the right to fight back to a reporter I'm with him. But why he choose to say 'concentration camp guard' immediately after the reporter has told him he was Jewish insteda of 'obnoxious prick' 'pain in the arse' or 'hireling'. Of all those people who do things just because they are paid for it he only comes up with 'concentration camp guard' as a comparison for the reporter?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 02:52 PM

Kevin,
in fairness - the cartoon you point at is not racist (no race obvious in the drawing). It certainly is chauvinist and xenophobic. Not that the Mail is not well known for its racist attitudes, just that this particular example might not be the best.

Richard,
I do indeed admire Ken for his stance and I hope he sticks to his guns. I think he's wrong on many things, but not in matters of racism and inclusiveness. The Mail has shot itself in the foot in my book, by letting its agenda show.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:51 PM

Well I couldn't swear what "race" the alien concerned is actually supposed to be. But to me he looks distinctly like a caricature of someone from the Middle East, what with that nose an all. And the kind of racism that's been endorsed here doesn't necessarily worry too much about details.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,POET
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:54 PM

I DO NOT HATE THE GERMANS BECAUSE THEIR FATHERS BOMBED OUR ROAD.
I WOULD NOT APOLOGISE TO GERMANY BECAUSE MY FATHER BOMBED BERLIN.
I HATE THE MAN WHO RAPED MY GIRL BUT HIS SON DIDN'T COMMIT THAT SIN.
I FEEL NO GUILT FOR HISTORY MY FOREFATHERS MUST CARRY THAT LOAD.

IT PROBABLY DOESN'T SCAN BUT I HOPE YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN,
FROM HATE AND GUILT COMES ONLY DESTRUCTION.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 06:23 PM

Red Ken is not my most favourite politician. Well favourite in that context is a misnomer. However news reporters are not exactly the most considerate of scum. They think that because politicians are mendatious and coniving it makes them fair game. Trouble is that the likes of you and I come in for the same treatment. A simple inconsequential question with evasive answers can invoke an interrogation.
I speak from personal experience.

Princess Di was hounded to death by the scum. Remember that.

they do not do it in my name


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 07:21 PM

Good on you Ken...

Now thats how all our politicians should behave, with spirit, principle and true to his beliefs.
Contrast Kens words to those of Tony "the weasel" Blair, "Just apologise and move on", as if truth had no meaning or importance.

As I said earlier, I hope ken makes an issue of this, and the people of London and the whole country give him their support.
Maybe its the beginning of a fightback against lies, spin and cynical manipulation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 07:22 PM

Princess Di died because she climbed in a car with a drunk driver, and couldn't be bothered to put on her seat belt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:18 AM

Ken's refused to apologise once again this morning, and harangued the press in general, and this journalist and his paper in particular, about their objectionable behaviour in pursuing him when he clearly indicated he was unwilling to be interviewed.

Maybe we need more politicians like Ken, who have the courage to stand up for what they believe in and won't kow-tow to political-correctness and the demands of the thought-police?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,Simo
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 10:44 PM

It is time this ideology stopped. It is just unacceptable to be anti-christian anti-hindu, anti muslim,...is the rest of the world less equal? It has become a tactic to use anti-semetism to protect a small minority's huge interests and increase their power tom the extent that they now can threaten a high ranknig government official career. Would you fall for such a claim if it was propagated by the American Indians? Go figure!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 10:58 PM

It is time this ideology stopped. It is just unacceptable to be anti-christian anti-hindu, anti muslim,...is the rest of the world less equal? It has become a tactic to use anti-semetism shield to protect a small minority's huge interests and increase their power to the extent that they now can threaten a high ranking government official's career. Would you fall for such a claim if it was propagated by the American Indians? Go figure!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:40 AM

I got a reply to my email I sent supporting KL. It seems Londoners supported him between two to one and three to one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 09:35 AM

McGrath of Harlow - and you support the paparatzi in everything they do?

Not the whole truth and you know it. Even a drunk driver at 30 miles an hour can crash, but is unlikely to kill. The car travelled at speed because of the baying hounds who were so considerate they felt that photographs of a dying woman in the carnage was just what the public wanted.

I think the public told the media what they wanted at the funeral, but the media have the microphone so they record history. And most of it is celebrety obsessed lies fed by the publicity seeking "wannabe rich".

Not to people with half a brain they don't.

That car had been taken apart for 6 months to look for eavedropping/location devices. Who placed them there? MI5, scum, blackmailers, tick at least one of the above.

The media needs to be contrite now - not 1 month after Di's death. WE speak for her, who will speak for McGrath of Harlow when he is caught in a story not of his making and unable to avoid the scum? Only those with that half a brain obviously.

Ken was hounded until he snapped. The story was engineered. It is not news, it is not a newspaper. It is a comic and they are just stories. The media have to earn respect as much as politicians and neither are doing too well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 07:37 PM

There was another thread recently on Mudcat regarding commemmorating Auschwitz (and other) mass murder in which there was more than one comment on whether there was a point in re-hashing Jewish consciousness of terror, loss and grief. That thread went rather well I thought but here I am tempted to make such a comment myself because I think possibly both sides demean the reference by utilizing it in rather off-hand personal jibes. In these cases, in America, which do occur, and have personally occurred to me, I treat it strictly as one-on-one, because nine times out of ten the remark is thoughtlessly generated out of temporary stupidity, fatigue, or a misplaced attempt to be humorous. I have been personally as prone to error in this regard as anyone else.

This affair makes me want to give each of the participants a little shake and the question: "Are the next words out of your mouth going to make things better or not?"

There was a Seinfeld episode where he rather cruelly tricks his uncle into breaking up with his girlfriend on the (made-up) pretext that she is an anti-semite. After the damage is done, Seinfeld realizes he has made things worse for himself and he works on his uncle to get back with her. "But she's an anti-semite!" the uncle says. Seinfeld gives him a look and says "Can you blame her?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 01:17 PM

If these silly lefties invent all this political correct, lets-celebrate-multi-culturaly-enriched-diversity crap, then they have to abide by it.

Ken Livingstone, what a odd man


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Ian
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 04:06 AM

When did Ken state that some one was a Nazi or make reference to Jews?
As far as I recall Concentration Camps were a British inovation in South Africa. The guards were British from a multitude of religious backgrounds. It is also highly posible that the guards did not speak in a respectful manner to their charges.

It is also highly probable that in the German concentration camps not all guards were Nazis and not all prisoners were Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:33 PM

1) Boar War. Mostly women and children, many died

2) Roma people lost almost as many as the Jews - but they lacked a cohesive voice.

3) the word holocaust was coined during the Tsarist pograms of Ukraine. The Cossacks fought in WWII with the Germans against the Russians because of the history. I have heard it said that the Russian offensive that created the word Holocaust killed more Ukrainians over a longer period of time. They used to cut off the two fore-fingers of the bandura players because it was seen as a political statement to play the Ukranian music. And the musicians were the lucky ones.

But it was a longer time ago and further away so it didn't happen OK? And wasn't as bad as the Jewish holocaust anyway.

Yea sure........ if you say so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:35 PM

It would seem that there have been even more recent concentration camps, as a result of the Yugoslavian conflict at least. It's just that the German camps were easily found and publicised so widely that the name has become synonymous with that particular era. Even the Japenese camps have not had the enduring infamy of the Eurpean camps. Thus it would be quite natural to make reference to German guards when addressing a hectoring journalist in that way.

From what I can see the man just made capital out of a throwaway remark.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:35 PM

100


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Boab
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 01:02 AM

It is my opinion that if politicians down through the ages had comprised totally of humanitarians of the Ken Livingstone stamp, there would have been no cause arising for the present discussion. I don't agree with all of the man's political statements, but a glance at the ranks of his detractors tends to put him in a good light!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:44 AM

When did Ken state that some one was a Nazi or make reference to Jews? (Ian)

No, he used the word 'German' and not 'Nazi' to give the impression he intended which I have complained about already. No, he didn't use the word 'Jew', he only immediately after the reporter told him he was a Jew compared him to a concentration camp guard. What a sophistic defense!

It is interesting to see the cultural differences in this thread. It might be a consequence of our history, perhaps, but any German politician whatever his prior acceptance would have been would have lost his job with or without apology had he said what Livingstone has said. Support for such a politician would only have come from the far right. In 1991, even the chairman of the Green party, Stroebele, has been forced to renounce for one sentence in an interview which in Mudcat would be considered mainstream opinion.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 11:08 AM

A follow up. I guess one can predict safely from the original posts who of us is pleased or displeased with this (preliminary) outcome.

Livingstone suspended for a month

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 11:23 AM

He was democratically elected and only the electorate should decide if suspension is in order. Which it isn't IMO. He is the most unlikely closet racist on this earth and the Daily Mail are just trying to score cheap political points and destablise democracy. The reporter was being provocative and intrusive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 12:39 PM

Tony Blair must be very glad that this business of "doing damage to the reputation of his office" doesn't apply to Prime Ministers.

I'm puzzled how an unelected body, which has no juridical ststus, has the power to suspend an elected official.

Comparing someone to a Nazi prison guard may be bad manners and over the top, but there's no suggestion that Ken broke any law. It was a question of bad taste. In an episode of Seinfeld some authoritarian proprietor of a caff was described as "the Coffee Nazi" - would that have been a reasonable justification for a witch-hunt?

I think Ken wold have done better to button his lip - that kind of insult should be reserved for situatons like Abu Ghraib rather than wasted on some reporter who's stirring. But I'd think that this kind of proceeding by "the Adjudication Panel for England" (daft title) should at most be reserved for cases of deliberate lying and underhanded behaviour in office (for example if Ken Livingstone had acted like Tony Blair did in getting us into his war).


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 01:02 PM

The principal UK reportage so far is in the Evening Standard. Now why do I not feel inclined to trust that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 02:30 PM

Mr Red you are a fount of (mis) information.

Term Holocaust as a reference to the Nazi extermination of the Jews didn't come about until well after WWII. The term you refer to vis-a-vis Ukrainians is possibly an English translation from an existing Ukrainian or Russian term. Why not do a bit of honest research and start your own thread.

It is true that "ethnic cleansing" occurred among many minorities in Europe over the past few hundred years, Jews not excepted.

I've read that about 2 million Gypsies were killed as part of the Holocaust.

The facts are out there, if you are willing to deal with them and not try to make them fit your preconceived notions and stories.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 08:01 AM

Some silence would be welcome

Mr Livingstone apparently said the Reubens could "go back to Iran and try their luck with the ayatollahs, if they don't like the planning regime or my approach"....
Mr Livingstone's aggressive and intolerant streak now roams widely in search of any opponent he thinks weak and unpopular enough to pick on. ...
he should learn that sometimes the best thing he could do is shut up.


It seems to be a repeating pattern with this man.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 09:56 AM

robomatic - read what is put not what you want to.

the Cossaks fought with the Germans in ww11 "because of history". the word Holocaust was coined to describe the Tsarist treatment of Ukranians which has been described as killing more people than the German campaign against Jews. And was Stalin any better? - as a result they had a grudge to settle by 1939.

FWIW Russians will tell you that Hiltler's war killed more Russians than Jews. Statistics are meaningless without context. And need an open mind to focus properly. Now about weapons of mass destruction and their existence.......................

And as for the number of Roma people, it is not something that can be counted as easily. I defer to my informants - who can get it wrong - the BBC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 11:50 AM

Mr. Red,

Romani Rose, chairman of the central committee of the German Sinti and Roma, speaks about up to 500,000 (lower estimate: 200,000) Sinti and Roma being killed during the holocaust. He wouldn't use a too small number.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 12:09 PM

Words are mostly older than the present day meaning. One can quarrel about words without end.

However: Holocaust comes from the Greek and means 'completely burned' (of an animal offering). In this sense, its first use we know of was by Xenophon, roughly 2400 years ago. Well over a hundred times it is found in the Greek bible. I have no idea how this word is translated in the English bible.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 12:26 PM

So what exactly did the Reubens do that upset the lad this time?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: melodeonboy
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 12:47 PM

Gutter press hacks are notorious for causing great distress to various individuals and groups, albeit, in most cases, in a way which does not fall into the category of verbal or racial abuse.

Considering that the "reporter" in question decided to take up such disreputable employment in an industry where abuse and character assassination is so common, I find it remarkable that he's been taken so seriously.

If I ever have the misfortune to be pestered by people like that, they'll get far more than a throwaway sarky comment about prison guards!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 03:06 AM

The reporter was shit-stirring but he was also dead right. Ken espouses political correctness and shouldn't have spoken like that quite apart from the fact that as a public figure he should expect to be harrassed by the press. Now he's done it again. He's told someone to go back to their own country, just the sort of comment he's supposed to fight against. And then it turns out that Finegold and the Reubens are co-religionists so Ken has now laid himself open to charges of anti-semitism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 03:50 AM

Have we bothered to check what actually caused the remark?

Do not necessarily believe all assertions.

Remember the "evidence" that apparently convinced the standards committee that Finegold had not been homophobically provoking guests was....Finegold's tape recorder. Oh, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 04:08 AM

So a reporter's feelings got hurt. Boo bloody Hoo. Ken Livingstone has said plenty of stupid and insensitive things in his time. He has also consistently stuck his neck out for London and got up the noses of those in power in Westminster, to the extent that the tories even abolished an entire city council to try and get rid of him in the 80s. If you sack every politician who makes a fool of himself from time to time soon no-one will be running the country. Livingstone was elected by the people of London in the face of opposition from the government and his own party leadership. They, and only they, have the right to get rid of him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 04:18 AM

Hmm...a little rummage seems to indicate that the Reubens story was started by the Evening Standard. The dangers of a hostile press seem to be well revealed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 04:27 AM

Here is some information aboutthe Reubens Brothers. But note the url.

http://www.reubenbrothers.com/article50.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 11:43 AM

Wolfgang has made several good points. I think he's right about cultural differences. From the point of view of this outsider (Canadian), it's hard to understand why a public figure of Livingstone's apparent stature wouldn't just make a simple apology ("Sorry to anyone who was offended ..."), and then move on. Why would he want to waste time and energy defending some thoughtless and insensitive remarks he made in anger to an insignificant person? And equally hard to understand why so many on a board such as this would see a simple apology as some kind of surrender to the forces of evil.

I live in a province (Alberta) the premier of which makes a public apology about once a month - the latest was for throwing a book at a young page (as in servant, not paper!) in parliament. That barely made the news. Usually his apologies are met with rolling of eyes, heaving of sighs, and some editorializing ... So - cultural differences?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 03:00 PM

The current British political climate is that any apology or compromise is weakness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 06:50 PM

So a reporter's feelings got hurt. Boo bloody Hoo. Ken Livingstone has said plenty of stupid and insensitive things in his time. He has also consistently stuck his neck out for London and got up the noses of those in power in Westminster, to the extent that the tories even abolished an entire city council to try and get rid of him in the 80s. If you sack every politician who makes a fool of himself from time to time soon no-one will be running the country. Livingstone was elected by the people of London in the face of opposition from the government and his own party leadership. They, and only they, have the right to get rid of him.

Posted by Chris and wholly endorsed by a very happy Londoner who is proud to be represented by Ken. If we didn't want him holding the position he has we would have voted otherwise. And if he stands again he will get in again. A true prince among thieves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Flash Company
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 10:02 AM

Well, Ken has now proved he is not Anti-semetic by making an Anti-Iranian commentto a developer, along the lines of 'Why don't you go back to Teheran and try your luck with the Ayatollahs?'

FC


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 12:58 PM

Yeah, but the developers weren't Iranian. They were born in India of Jewish Iraqi parents. Ken may not be anti-semitic but he ought to think twice about how he says things. After all it's not the Reuben brothers' background that's the problem but how they are acting now ie. upsetting Ken's Olympic plans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 05:56 AM

Nice one, guest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 10:32 AM

I don't know who is the right or wrong of this malarkey, and reading through this thread hasn't really been all that informative.

However the thread does put me in mind of one day about a couple of years ago - I was gigging at an old peoples residential home somewhere in the depths of Linclonshire.

There was this old cockney lady and she said to me, 'That Ken Livingstone! He's a wonderful man! Yer know, he sticks up for us Londoners!'


with support like that, I think the reporter would have done well to pick on someone his own size.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 11:36 AM

go back to Iran and try their luck with the ayatollahs
What is worrying about that remark is less the attack on a pair of brothers who may be everything from mildly unpleasant to crooks (I just don't know and don't care) but the thinly disguised racism in Livingstone's remarks. 'Iran' (who cares about Iran or Iraq, they are all just the same dark-skinned crowd) in Livingstone's remark is a place that compares badly with a shining London governed by Livingstone in that comparison and 'ayatollahs' too are bad. The choice of his comparison shows what he really thinks deep under his patina of anti-racism. Usually the 'go where you came from' remark is used by people from the right and is recognised as racist. (But mnaybe he was drunk again which is always a good excuse for racist remarks?)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 12:43 PM

wolfie, ken's one of the good guys......bit of left wing , politically correct bore - well quite a lot of one actually!

but theres no nastiness, no intention to be anything but a nice guy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:45 AM

I just love the fact that Ken has called the US ambassador to England a "cheap crook" for refusing to pay the congestion charge that every other road user in central London (even the UK government) pays.

Ken's rationale is that it is not a "tax" but the price of a commodity, and the ambassador pays for bananas if he buys them in a shop so why not his road use too.

I am inclined to agree.

Perhaps Ken could get some wheelclampers to clamp US embassy cars found stationary in the C-charge area if not having paid the charge? Perhaps some trigger happy wingnut (person with short hair and big ears) would then pull a gun - as happened in the US embassy once when I short-cut the empty zig-zag tape queuing lines by ducking under the tapes to get to the available staff at the counter.

Maybe Shrub would then send a gunboat up the Thames.

What is it with Americans? We gave them civilisation. Evidently we did not give them enough.


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