BS: Are you a sh-sher?

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 02:32 PM

I think we all know that languages inevitably evolve, and what used to be "proper" may now be "ignorant", and vice versa.

I'm in the midst of reading James Boswell's magnum opus, The Life of Samuel Johnson. For those who might not know, Samuel Johnson was the bright and shining star of English literature in the late 18th Century, and was the author of Johnson's groundbreaking dictionary of that time, which more or less defined forever what a general dictionary of the language was supposed to do and be.

Now my point: He pronounced and promoted the pronunciation of "heard" as "heered", on the ground that the pronunciation "herd" was a lone and regrettable exception to the generally accepted pattern in English of pronouncing the letter combination "ear" as "eer".

And on this side of the pond, the great American philologist and dictionary writer Noah Webster, in dealing with the word "ask", prescribed the pronunciation "aks".

Today, 250 years later, a person using either of those pronunciations is almost sure to be pegged as careless, if not downright ignorant.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Terry K
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 09:29 AM

In most cases, the sh sound is just lazy speaking, very widespread and probably on the increase. There is a view that pronouncing things correctly is rather posh, but of course, originating from Middlesbrough, as I do, it comes quite naturally to me.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 12:24 PM

In North Carolina, at least some of the people I know say 'dittun'. And they are white. As someone said, the black people tend to talk like the white people and vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 02:01 PM

Definitely sh, after the shikshth pint of shtout

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:58 PM

I say "appre-she-ate", "spesies" and "licorisse", but I was raised in the Ottawa Valley by a hoity-toity Montreal Anglo parent who forbid her children to say "orrnge", "squrrrrl" or "grodge" like all the other kids. The other parent was no relief, as he grew up in England saying "vittamin" and "privvacy", and spoke somewhat antique Mid-Atlantic his whole life.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:40 PM

Someone asked me via PM -- seeing as I started the thread -- I don't shh any of the words. And I always pronounce both Rs in February.

Geet posh for a Geordie.

I notice a lot of American (black people in particular) put a glottal stop into 'didn't' and say something like 'dittun' ... very similar to English Cockneys.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Layah
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 12:04 PM

I say budder for butter. Who is we, US or UK? Or somebody else? I forgot about the glottal stop t's, which are found both in some dialects of UK and US English.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 11:25 AM

We would probably avoid budder for butter, but half the country and most of the younger generation say bu''er (glottal stop)

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: GUEST,JennyO
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 09:32 AM

appreciate: no sh
species: no sh
licorice: sh

That's my Aussie take on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: GUEST,Crystal via the back door
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 09:29 AM

appreciate: sh
species: no sh
licorice: sh
When I don't pronounce it Lickwish that is.
My sister pronounces species with an sh and we grew up together, however she is a) rather more dyslexic than me and b) not a scientist (political science dosn't count!)

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:17 PM

Teresa...I'll bet I have heard 'cachet' 15-20 times in the last couple of years...I have NEVER heard a military man say cache properly in that time.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:08 PM

How well I remember my fifth grade English teacher, in about 1940, I suppose, insisting: "It's OFF-en, not OFF-Ten!"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 09:02 PM

"Brits always have t when it is written t." Ah, featherstoneshaugh?

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Teresa
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:55 PM

They do? Ugh! Never heard that one before, Bill, though it doesn't surprise me.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 08:48 PM

this one of them Sibboleths, ain't it? NOT doing them shhhhs can get you killed!

and the 'sh' sound that bothers ME is reporters...and espeshally (*grin*) members of the Armed Forces giving interviews about WMDs, saying "cachet", when they mean "cache".

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Layah
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:35 PM

Brits always have t when it is written t. Almost all (possibly all, but I wouldn't want to be so encompasing) American dialects have a d except before stressed syllables (po TAY do) and except in borrowed words (Beathoven). It's so interesting, studying linguistics in the US and now studying linguistics in Scotland. This thread is right up my alley.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:30 PM

In a song I will often (frequently?) pronounce the t, but nor normally in speech. I assume that British usage calls for the t?

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:28 PM

Now, growin' up in West Central Illinoi we sorta talked like I'm writin'. Dere wasn't any rezun I cud see for it, sept maybe becuz we were on the rifer (Mississippi) an the steembotes wood bring lots uf differnt aksents upriver on 'em. I'd talk to Miz Hoag, ar naybor, sometimes an she'd tell me bout dat kid down da block who'd git in trubble a lot.

Yes, we'd intermingle dis, dat, da, dese, and dose with this, that, the, these and those. It was part straight Pike Keeyounty, part Southern, part African-American, part German, part Irish usage and dialect.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Layah
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:27 PM

Wow, I'd never noticed before, I do say mirrrrrr instead of mirror. Although I suspect you Brits say something more like mira than mirror.
One that's been interesting me for a while: often. Do you pronounce the t or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:10 PM

Layah, when I was a kid with a love of words that happened to me a LOT. Words like 'pictureSKEW', 'fatiGOO,' 'Caffy (for 'cafe'), and
'Arr roh gant'. I was teased mercilessly by family members and soon learned to check the dictionary FIRST!

Uncle Dave: psssssst I have always suspected that my friend picked that up on her own and uses it as her effort to reform the world.

On the other hand, there are a great many variations in the US. Oklahomans and Texans tend to say 'furnitoor' and 'signatoor'; I've never heard anyone else pronounce furniture and signature like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Teresa
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:24 PM

In the world of science-fiction fanzines, when we talk about putting out our issues of various self-produced zines, it's referred to as "pubbing our ish". So I guess that's the illustration of that word's preferred pronunciation. :)

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:23 PM

Three sh's. Middle England.
What I'd like to know (thread creep) is why Americans can't say mirror.
They seem to say mirrrrrr

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Layah
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:07 PM

I've never heard usual pronounced the way you mention. Also, I pronounce consortium with a t, neither sh nor s, although it's possible that I have only ever read the word and therefore made up my own pronunciation. That happens to me a lot. (How many people thought harbinger was pronounced hair bringer when they first read it?)

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:05 PM

In Minnesota, in my misspent youth, "usual" was YOUZH-ual. And today, too, after 74 years.

"Usually", incidentally, was YOUZH-ly. Usually.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 06:01 PM

sh in each of them. Grew up in Oregon and Virginia.

A friend of mine says 'youse you all' for 'usual', instead of the common (to me) pronunciation of 'youzh you all'. She grew up in Minnesota and Oregon. Has anyone else ever heard usual pronounced her way?

And what about 'consortium? I pronounce it with a sh but I've heard it as 'consorsium

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Jeanie
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:45 PM

Ah, Dave, it's that problem of our using ordinary letters as opposed to phonetic alphabet.

appreciate: broken down into a p r ee c ee ay t (c=s)or (c=sh)
Same difference !
The only real way to record it without quibble would be in the International Phonetic Alphabet.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: s&r
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:42 PM

Oxford English Dictionary gives both pronunciations, but with 'sh' first which indicates a preference for that pronunciation on the part of the compilers. The pronunciation given is that for RP (southern English).

But then, they're wrong about barf


Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:23 PM

Apree-she-ate, appree-she-ay-shun
Spee-sees
lick'rish

I'm from Minnesota, a long time ago. I don't know whether I grew up with "spee-sees" or not, but it's the way I say it now, after 43 years in Indiana.

Jeanie said: .."the "c" pronounced "sh"..    Seems to me that it's not a "c" that is pronounced "sh" but "ci" or "ce" which are pronounshed "she".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:15 PM

I usually use the C... but the thing that pisses me off most is the use of D instead of T, as in congradulations.

GGRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Burke
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:09 PM

appreciate: sh
species: no sh
licorice: sh

I live in New York State but tend to speak MidWest.

Merriam Webster:
KEY: \&\ as a and u in abut


Main Entry: ap·pre·ci·ate
Pronunciation: &-'prE-shE-"At, -'pri- also -'prE-sE-

Main Entry: spe·cies
Pronunciation: 'spE-(")shEz, -(")sEz

Main Entry: lic·o·rice
Pronunciation: 'li-k(&-)rish, -k(&-)r&s

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Layah
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 05:01 PM

I read a study about s+y combinations turning into sh+y. It's because the y is further back in your mouth getting ready for it you pull your tongue back which turns the s into a sh. Basically what the study found was that some people don't ever do it, some people do it sometimes, and some people always do it. This applies to grocery and "this year" but the other things we've been talking about is a dialect difference rather than a sound change (phonological rather than phonetic).

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:56 PM

Good topic. I use "sh" in appreciate, species, and licorice. Also in associate, social, and sociable, but not in society or sociology. I think I'm inconsistent about association; I know I hear it both ways, and I don't have a firm preference. Yet they all come from the same root—go figure.

How about grocery? People around here (Minnesota) tend to pronounce it "groshery" (or "grosh'ry") but I grew up saying "grossery" (or "gross'ry"). I grew up in St. Louis. Since "grosh'ry" makes no sense to me, I will probably continue saying "gross'ry."

How about the phrase "this year"? This REALLY makes no sense to me, but I think I have even heard TV announcers say "thish ear." NO WAY would I ever say it that way myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Layah
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:51 PM

There is an international phonetic alphabet, which is used in both countries. I haven't come across a writing system that's different. There is also an English biased phonetic alphabet, but I assume that if they use that at all in UK it would be the same, since it's made to make English speaking people happy (use y for y instead of j like the IPA does, etc.) It wouldn't be very helpful if I wrote stuff to you all in it if you don't know it though, because you wouldn't understand what I'm writing. Since we're only talking about a s/sh difference it isn't that hard to figure out from the way people are spelling things here. If we were talking about vowel differences that would be much more difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:48 PM

For the chemis(h)ts among you:

I had students chasing up NMR and MS spectra on the Web today.They were a bit nonpluss(h)ed when one of the sites referred to the "chemical shit" of some protons!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: *Laura*
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:47 PM

well - I know a few bits of the UK one.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:43 PM

Which phonetic one? the US and UK ones are diffrent. Ask Layah , who studies linguistitics, if you need to know more...

BTW, I shh some of the above example. Sotherbn english, almost RP.

Bunnahabhain.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Teresa
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:38 PM

Well, I've heard it pronounced: "likker-iss". But very rarely. I have a prejudice. Everyone I've heard who didn't "sh" with those words I deemed a "hoity-toity snob". That's interesting; will have to rethink my preconceptions. :) I knew one girl who pronounced "tissue" as "tissyou". My friends and I used to make fun of her for pronouncing it that way; we were all callow young'uns.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: *Laura*
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:29 PM

How do you not sh liquorice? I am curious.
Does anyone know the phonetic alphabet - it would be useful here.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:22 PM

shi-ite Moslem

sheeeeee-it

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:14 PM

I "sh" in all three words cited. I am a US resident, and have spoken (these words in this manner in New Jersey, Indiana, Californa, and Louisiana ~ and usually heqard them pronounced this way as well.

From the title, I thought this thread was asking if one was a person who tried to hush other people. In that sense, I'm hardly ever a "sh-sher," but often a "sh-shee."

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:55 PM

I say "sit" and "shtairs."

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Jeanie
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:54 PM

I'm a sh-sher of those words, too (born Wales, Welsh parents, but grew up near London; speak "Received Pronunciation").

I would say "sh" in appreciate, but "s" in the middle of "appreciation", otherwise it would sound too shshy for me ! I think the choice of "to sh or not to sh" depends on the other surrounding consononants to a certain extent. I've had a quick wizz through some of my "How to Talk Proper for Thespians and Luvvies" books - haven't immediately come across an example.

How about this one to say over and over: Special Spanish Species !

Nothing to do with the "c" pronounced "sh", but here's a lovely speech exercise to spray people with:

"Whoosh ! A shoe shied by Sheila shot past Sasha's shoulder and shattered a pitcher of shoyu on a shelf. No shilly-shallying for Sasha; her eyes flashing Russian passion, she sharply shied the shoe right back so it splashed the washing, and Sheila, most efficiently with shoyu. And thus the wretched shrieker got short shrift from Sasha over her shrunk shift."

Aha ! "efficiently" - I've only ever heard that one shshd, never ssd.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:42 PM

'liquorice' may also be spelled (or spelt) 'licorice.' It's a different word than licorish, liquorish, or lickerish.

Sorry to interrupt ...

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: *Laura*
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:37 PM

we double posted - great minds great minds

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: *Laura*
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:36 PM

does anyone say licorice without a sh?
like - lico - rice. hmmmm....

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Layah
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:36 PM

I don't think I"ve ever heard someone say licorice without a sh. It sounds very funny in my head. The other two I've heard other people say even if I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:34 PM

sh - no sh - sh in your order

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: *Laura*
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:25 PM

I sh in all of them.
I'm from Somerset UK(if you're interested in the regional thing)

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: jeffp
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:22 PM

appreciate: sh
species: no sh
licorice: either one, depending on mood

FWIW, I'm from Maryland, United States

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a sh-sher?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:11 PM

I'm a librarian. We learn shushing in library school -- Shushing 610, for instance, is the advanced course for honors students.