BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:25 AM

Well, well, well... Am I suprized?

After the U.S. investigated themselves, they seem to think everything was in order on their part.

Only one little problem - They won't let the Italians inspect the car or interview the soldiers.

The Italians are not taking this lightly!

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 01:29 PM

Sgrena's medical condition is very serious. The shell that entered her body was very big and injured her lung which continues to fill with fluid. I am astonished that other journalists have not followed up on this story. The only recent info I could find was on Znet. Please go to their site and read the latest.

Troll - This article, although it does not show a map, clearly explains the road that they were on when they were ambushed. It also details the reasons why it was not an act of self defense by the soldiers.

"According to Klein, when Calipari was killed and Sgrena wounded, they were on a secured road that can only be accessed through the heavily-fortified Green Zone and is reserved exclusively for top foreign embassy and US officials. "It's a completely separate road, actually a Saddam-era road, it would seem, that allowed his vehicles to pass directly from the airport to his palace," says Klein. "And now that is the secured route between the U.S. military base at the airport and the U.S. controlled Green Zone and the U.S. embassy."

"It was a VIP road, for embassy people, not for normal people," Sgrena told Klein. "I was only able to be on that road because I was with people from the Italian embassy."

So when Calipari, the Italian security intelligence officer, picked up Sgrena from the abandoned vehicle where her captors left her, they drove directly to that road via Green Zone.

That explains why Sgrena said that when they drove to the airport she "thought we were finally safe, because the area where we were was under the control of the United States."

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 07:25 PM

Basically there are three possibilities:

1)It was a tragic accident and noone was to blame.

2)It was a tragic accident, and someone was to blame.

3)It was an ambush.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 12:02 AM

The check point that fired on Sgrena and killed Calipari was a temporary checkpoint set up for Negroponte. Sgrena and Calipari had already cleared the established check points.

There appears to be no reason the temporary check point should have been there at all since Negroponte had cleared about an hour and a half earlier. Temporary check points are usually dimantled when no longer needed.

This particular check point was still operational and leaves little doubt that it had a very specific purpose once Negroponte had cleared. American intelligence knew they were coming to the airport! I do not expect the U.S. investigation to point a finger at itself and I do think that Negroponte is capable of just about anything - look at his history.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 10:11 PM

"Seems the civilian leaders didn't want to talk to her"

Well, sympathetic to their cause or not, she is a woman... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 06:11 PM

Just heard on the news that PM Berlusconi has announced he's pulling Italian troops out of Iraq starting in September:

Italians to Pull Out

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:44 PM

Dianavan, the quote below is from a report in The Guardian, which is certainly NOT a US supporter.

"Sgrena told colleagues the vehicle was not travelling fast and had already passed several checkpoints on its way to the airport. The Americans shone a flashlight at the car and then fired between 300 and 400 bullets at if from an armoured vehicle."

I hope this clears up that point.

I tend not to put words in other peoples mouths deliberately. Since I am not perfect, I do sometimes slip but it is never deliberate and, as any of the old-timers on the forum can tell you, if I'm wrong, I generally 'fess up.

If you'd like to read her version of the events (her FIRST version) in her own words, go to the il Manifesto site. They have a whole stack of her columns on archive.

Btw, apparently she didn't have much of an expose about Fallujah. Seems the civilian leaders didn't want to talk to her. It's all in her article "My Truth".

Read it,if you haven't already.

troll

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:13 PM

No. 1) We're still waiting for facts.

Foolestroupe you're correct that many journalists have died from crossfire, proximity to rocket attack, and partisans of the same ilk as allegedly kidnapped Ms. Sgrena.

But checkpoints are effing dangerous. Yesterday I heard a radio interview with a Washington Post reporter who was traveling recently with a group of GIs who stopped to set up one of those 'intermediate' roadblocks. They explained that they were trying to stop suicide car bombs. "How do you find them?" she asked.

"We find them when they try to blow us up."

So for better or worse, that's the mind set of the soldiers, who are folk like you and me who are expecting someone to try and kill THEM.

Anyhow, Ms. Sgrena has actually spoken enough that her own words are contradicting her other words.

SO:

Refer to No 1) Still waiting for facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 06:59 AM

It seems to have been overlooked that this was not the first journalist who was killed by US troops in Iraq - about a dozen other - and many of them are claimed to have been deliberately targeted - and in some cases sound track & video exists of the unprovoked firing on them.

It would understandable that she may fear the same treatment....

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:48 AM

Sgrena told colleagues the vehicle was not travelling fast and had already passed several checkpoints on its way to the airport. The Americans shone a flashlight at the car and then fired between 300 and 400 bullets at if from an armoured vehicle.

from this article in the left of the middle Guardian.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 02:10 AM

troll, there is a difference between what she has said and what others have said.

"Her editor, Gabriele Polo, said Italian officials told him 300-400 rounds were fired at the car."

Please tell me where she said that.

There is also a difference between a warning light and a light followed immediately by live ammunition.

There are many unanswered questions but I think you are putting words in Sgrena's mouth.

Did she say she was anti-American or did she say that she did not approve of the war in Iraq? There's a big difference.

Did she say she was a target? I think that theory was put forth by a former U.S. Air Force intelligence officer: "It is quite reasonable to assume, given the immorality of war and of this war in particular, that it was considered a military target."

Jerry Fresia

Seems to me that you and alot of others are trying to discredit Sgrena. Why? What are you afraid of? Do you think she might tell the world what happened in Fallujah?

I want to hear what she has to say after the investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:31 AM

Dianavan - She's anti-American by her own admission. I would think that the chance to inflict damage on America would be reason enough.

Even if the investigation proves her wrong, the accusation has been made and the damage done. Dr. Goebels knew the value of the lie in shaping opinions. There are plenty of people who are ready to believe the worst about us, regardless of the final outcome.

Her story keeps changing. First it was a tank and 300 to 400 bullets. Well, I saw pictures of an armored SUV that was hit 35 times by heavy machinegun fire. All the windows were gone, the four people inside dead, and it was obvious that the car had been in a fight.

The pics that I saw of Ms. Sgrena's car showed 1 (one) bullet hole in the front windshield and a flat left front tire.

Either the shooters were (a) such good shots that they were able to put 300 to 400 shots through one hole or (b) such lousy shots that they missed altogether.

She also said that the shots came from the right and from the rear.
With a dead man on top of her, I don't see how she could tell. from the right I could accept; the bullet hole in the windshield was on the right-hand side. But from the rear?

If the windshield hole was made from the rear, where is the entry hole?

I also read that in a BBC interview, she said that they shined a light into the car and then started shooting.

But wait! Didn't she say that there was no light?

Ah well.

I found most of this info from a bloger called Jawa and on his links.I found the site when I Googled "Sgrenas car photos". The photos were first published in "Republica", an Italian publication.

No joy on a map as yet.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 09:08 PM

troll - I don't have a map but... "Sgrena said, "It was the alternative route to the airport, that one that as far as I know goes through the American-controlled green zone and avoids residential areas."

If you find out where that road is and how many lanes it has, let me know.

What I don't understand is why you think she would be going out of her way to mislead an investigation. Seems there were two survivors and they both seem to agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 08:53 PM

I heard recently that the European Parliament tried to ban the Swastika - but India - who have used it as a Religious Symbol for Goodness for ages strongly objected. It's not the object - but the societal mental associations.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 07:32 PM

No apology necessary, robomatic. I probably didn't make myself clear in my original post about the quote, and I just wanted to straighten out where I was coming from.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 07:20 PM

I recall reading somewhere (I guess I should archive this stuff) that the driver said there was a light and immediately afterward the shooting started. We are told that Ms. Sgrena was in the back seat. I will assume that the driver was in the front and probably in a better position to see the road ahead.

Another thing that bothers me is her statement that they had just rounded a sharp bend in the road and so were going quite slowly. I don't know how they build six-lane highways in Iraq, but I've never seen a major multi-lane hiway with sharp bends. Usually they are fairly gentle and banked so that traffic flows smoothly. A major hiway like the one to the Baghdad Airport would surely be of modern design if only to avoid delaying Saddam on his way to and fro.

Has anyone got a map of that section of road that they could share or provide a link to? It would sure help me understand this particular part of the incident better

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 07:18 PM

Re:

Communism
Or
"A rose, by any other name, would stink the same"
(Willie the Shake)

A drunk was on his hands and knees at the base of a street lamp. the cop on the beat went over to him. "What's the matter, mac?"
"Dropped my keys," said the tipsillated one.
"Just a minute and I'll help," said the cop, but there were no keys to be found. "You sure you were here when you dropped 'em?"
"No," said the drunk, "I was at my front door over there," he pointed to a house about 200 feed away.
The copy said,"Then why are you looking for your keys over here?"
the drunk answered, "The light is better here!"

And so after 100 years of Marxism, and 70 plus years of absolute control over a great country, Communism had so utterly failed as a system of economy, philosophy, and every other way except some capable use of physical intimidation, that it collapsed from the inside. And what is left is so rotten and corrupt that recovery is not assured. This is where the accrual of certainty leads.

I had a chance to visit the Soviet Union in better times. Their economy was doing well, they were doing cutting edge space exploration, and the ice cream was terrific. But try to tell a joke on the street and a friend would shut you up. And if you asked what was wrong with political jokes you were fed a bunch of long-winded propaganda. In America the only problem with political jokes is when they get elected.

So for those of you who think it is merely a matter of properly 'labeling' the 'politics de jour' you can label every 'defeat' a 'victory' and really simplify matters. The folks who called themselves Communists in Eastern Europe and China created civil wars, massive population displacements, economic malfunctions, military industrial complexes, show trials, mass starvation, and doublethink. If you look hard to the east you can see that of the three remaining governmental systems, one has been able to starve hundreds of thousands of its own citizens while pursuing nuclear weapons, and the other two are CINO's, they are practising state sponsored capitalism after a fashion in maoist rags.

The existence of eurocommunism makes me think of the Santayana phrase about what befalls those who do not learn from history. But what it really makes me ponder is that poor drunk on his hands and knees looking for those keys where the light is better.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:53 PM

Don:
I'm going to apologize because I sense that I'm getting your goat and that is not what I was trying to do. I agree and applaud with your filling out the complete quote for the thread. It's a great quote and one I think of a great deal. I was trying to 'speak to the quote' not play any kind of upmanship and I've said all I need to say on the subject. Peace unto you.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:36 PM

Also, the "who am I? / what am I?" parallelism seemed poetically consistent to me.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:33 PM

Honestly, robomatic, I didn't intend to make a federal case out of it, nor am I particularly ego-involved in the accuracy of the translation, especially since it is not my own (as I said, I don't speak Hebrew). I was relaying the Hillel quote as it was translated for me by my friend, who spoke Hebrew fluently. If it was not as most people would translate it, that I don't know. I presume that my friend had a reason for translating it the way he did. Perhaps it is one of those things that can be read either way, but as to that, I couldn't say.

But—what I was attempting to point out in my original post on the subject was that, as Troll posted it, the quote was incomplete. "If I am not for myself, who will be?" (or whatever) standing by itself could be someone's brief for self-centeredness. In the complete thought that Hillel was endeavoring to put across, "If I am only for myself, what am I?" negates the self-centered aspect of it. That was where I drew the parallel with the Jesus quote, which strikes me as saying essentially the same thing, but in a somewhat different frame.

Anyway, that's all I was trying to say.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:44 PM

A soldier will have to live with that on their conscience.
This is a young bloke who has probably been out there for afew months, is scared to death, has seen friends get shot and has shot other people, and is fully aware of just how fragile life is for him at the moment. Its a fucked up situation, things like this happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:29 PM

My point all along has been that there is a gulf of difference between American and European perceptions of communism. I don't know that it's necessary (if this is what Carol is implying) to find new terminology just because US paranoia has debased the terminology we already have.

No, my point is exactly the same one you are making. That there is a gulf of difference between how people in the US and Europe react to and understand the words "communism" and "communist", and that this difference in perception is important to keep in mind when discussing the credibility or lack of credibility of Ms. Sgrena based on her being a Communist.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:27 PM

Don Firth:

There is a major difference between:
(Correct version):
If I am not for myself who will be for me?

and:
(Incorrect version):
If I am not for myself, who am I?

The first has a very specific point to make, the second is kind of nebulous, or mysterious, it could be applied in so many ways that in fact it loses meaning. The correct version goes better with the two lines which follow, and which you already had correct.

So I did not think I was making a niggling remark to call your attention to it. Obviously I thought it was significant enough to bring it up here.

I don't think Hillel's comment compares with Jesus' "Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself" . I think they are different sayings with different meanings and applications. You can find "Love the stranger in thy midst" in Hebrew scripture which may be the origin of Jesus' saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:48 PM

Robo, I thought your question about eurocommunism v euronazism was answered. The former have been part of mainstream democratic politics in Europe for many years. The same cannot be said for fasism in any shape or form. Foulestroupe's point about what Soviets called their system is obviously to be taken with a pinch of salt. Basically they called it whatever Uncle Koe wanted them to call it.

Here in the UK I read the daily paper the Morning Star, which gives better coverage of labour-relations issues etc than some of the other papers. It has a kind of communist agenda which I can take or leave, but it is better than some of the filth (which I also keep an eye on) produced by the press barons. I don't know about the mag Sgrena works for, but it would be absurd to blacken her purely because it is communist.

My point all along has been that there is a gulf of difference between American and European perceptions of communism. I don't know that it's necessary (if this is what Carol is implying) to find new terminology just because US paranoia has debased the terminology we already have. (And Christian paranoia too, for that matter. Let's not forget that the Vatican at one time railed against liberalism, and even democracy.)

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:48 AM

Your comments are rather confusing because Communism as practised pretty much in any country calling itself such was an overarching totalitarian system incorporating not only a command economy, but a command media, command philosophy, cult of personality, and command arts & sciences staffed from a command educational system.

Yes. If you look at it in terms of countries that have called themselves communist. But if you think in terms of a country that considers itself a democracy, but one in which communism is practiced, you get a whole different perspective. I'm guessing that there are no examples of a democratic country that practices communism so far. I'm guessing that there are people (Ms. Sgrena possibly being one of them) who believe that it is still possible, and would like to help nurture such a political and economic environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:45 AM

From CBS news -

"Berlusconi told the Senate this week that Calipari had informed the proper authorities that he was heading to the airport with the freed hostage. He said the car was traveling slowly and stopped immediately when a light was flashed at a checkpoint, before U.S. troops fired on the car.

In a statement released after the shooting, the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division, which controls Baghdad, said the vehicle was speeding and refused to stop. The statement also said a U.S. patrol tried to warn a driver with hand and arm signals, by flashing white lights and firing shots in front of the car into the car's engine block.

In interviews published Friday, Sgrena said that no light was flashed at the vehicle and that the shots were not fired in front of the car.

"It's not true that they shot into the engine," she told Corriere della Sera, adding that the shooting came "from the right and from behind."

In a parliament speech earlier this week, Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini said photos of the vehicle, which is still in Iraq, show that the fire "hit the right side of the car."

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:34 AM

I doubt whether journalism or communism was in Ms Sgrena's mind immediately following the incident. The trauma of being a hostage and of being the target of U.S. troops would clearly indicate that she has been victimized. I don't think its fair to criticize anything she has to say about the matter. She was there and it was her life that was at stake. On top of that, she now bears the burden of survivor's guilt. To start criticizing her ability to be objective or to question her political motives is highly insensitive.

troll - From my link of Mar. 5 7:21 - One Pentagon version claims that you were driving at more than 100 miles an hour, 160 kilometres an hour.

"Absurd. Just after saying that, the driver braked because there was a sharp right-hand bend. He slowed right down. We certainly weren't going fast. As we were coming out of the bend, the gunfire started. From the right and the rear. Burst of fire and single shots. It's not true that they shot at the engine, from in front".

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 12:15 AM

Carol: My remarks on Communism were not directed at Ms. Sgrena. They stand fine as they are. Your comments are rather confusing because Communism as practised pretty much in any country calling itself such was an overarching totalitarian system incorporating not only a command economy, but a command media, command philosophy, cult of personality, and command arts & sciences staffed from a command educational system.

My question on whether the fact that there are now eurocommunists is any different than the fact that there are now euronazis extant was never answered.

As to Ms. Sgrena, her assertions of being targeted by Americans (as opposed to being shot for speeding past a checkpoint) were not based on any facts that she brought forward. There is some question as to whether she is still asserting them. Her relation of the facts as she knows them seems to be a moving target. These qualities speak for themselves irrespective of what you call her or she calls herself, the most important word is not whether she qualifies as a big C or little c Communist, but whether she qualifies as any sort of journalist.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 08:54 PM

Remarks from Sgrena

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 07:48 PM

The following is taken from Ms. Sgrena's column in Il Manifesto, the newspaper for which she works.

"The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed. It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water in Baghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had been through would really be a tale I would not be able to tell. Nicola Calipari sat next to me. The driver twice called the embassy and in Italy that we were heading towards the airport that I knew was heavily patrolled by U.S. troops. They told me that we were less than a kilometer away...when...I only remember fire. At that point, a rain of fire and bullets hit us, shutting up forever the cheerful voices of a few minutes earlier."

I find no mention of speed or curves. I do, however, find mention of nearly losing control of the car while trying to avoid puddles in the road (underpass specifically) which I interpret as driving at a fairly high rate of speed on a road that she knew to be heavily patrolled.

It is my understanding that Ms. Sgrean has changed details of her story several times, so I'm not too sure how a reliable she is as a witness.

Until I see further documented information, I will stand by my
original statement: the car didn't stop, they shot at it.

Foolestroupe, re. Jesus.

tune; Jesse James

Born in 29 B.C. in the town of Galilee,
Bathed in his unwed mothers tears.
He said, "Take it from the rich, and give it to the poor."
He pre-dated Marx by eighteen hundred years

Ch.
Jesus had no wife to mourn for his life.
He needed a bath and a shave.
But that foe of the proletariat, Judas Iscariot.
Laid poor Jesus in his grave.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 07:19 PM

"It was certainly a command economy in the USSR Carol, but that doesn't mean it was a communist economy."

except that was what THEY called it...




Jesus was a Communist - It's In The Book!

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 06:23 PM

In order for it to be like the Soviet Union, a communist (or socialist) economic system also has to be a totalitarian system. And as I've said, it is possible for a communist economic system to have a democratic political system. I think you need to have been brought up in the US, where being called a communist is, in terms of the severety of the accusation, about as bad as being called a Nazi (I draw your attention to robomatic's 12 Mar 05 - 10:42 AM post - this part, in particular: Is the fact that there are eurocommunists now any different from the fact that there are euronazis now?), to understand why this distinction is important when discussing the case of someone like Ms. Sgrena.

Just because someone believes in communism as an economic system, doesn't mean that they also prefer a totalitarian political system. Has Ms. Sgrena written any editorial pieces in which she has advocated totalitarianism? If not, any accusations that because she is a communist (and for that reason alone), she is not to be believed, are just speculation and have no validity.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 05:41 PM

It was certainly a command economy in the USSR Carol, but that doesn't mean it was a communist economy.

I don't see the mileage in the distinction you draw between economics and politics. Communism is the term applied to a certain social and economic system. But it is also applied to political movements that seek to implement that system. I make the point only because in this thread we have been using the term in its latter sense - quite legitimately.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 05:16 PM

My point still stands, robomatic, in the case of Ms. Sgrena. The term "communism" does not always or necessarily refer to the way the Soviet Union (or any other totalitarian government using a communist economic system) conducted its political affairs. It can also refer to someone who believes in a democratic political system that uses a communist economic system. So it is still a non-sequitur to try to impute any sort of anything watever about Ms. Sgrena based only on the fact that she considers herself to be a Communist.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 05:00 PM

Carol, that is only one definition of communism. The other definition, typically with a capital C, is Marxist socialism as developed by Lenin involving a theory of inevitable historical development culminating in a 'dictatorship of the proletariat'. Claiming that the Soviet Union was an experiment in which communism was not tried is a copout.

One can make a converse argument, BTW, that in 'fascist' Italy the economy was whatever the Fascist leader said it was, hence not a true capitalism. However, around the world there are genuine capitalist economies with all sorts of mostly democratic governments, whereas I can't think of a significant case of a democratic government with a 'communist' economy.

Personally I'd rather use the word 'socialist' which is more generic and genuine.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 04:00 PM

Good analysis, Carol! Exactly so!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:42 PM

LOL

apologies

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:40 PM

Apopogies if someone has already pointed this out...

Communism is an economic system, not a political system. The political system in the Soviet Untion was not communism. It was totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is a kind of political system. The Soviet Union had a totalitarian political system with a communist economic system. It is possible to have a totalitarian political system with a capitalist economic system. It is also possible to have a communist economic system with a democratic political system.

Therefore, it is a non-sequitur to suggest that all Communists favor totalitarianism, just as it is an non-sequitur to suggest that all capitalist systems are democracies (fascist Italy being an example of a capitalist system that was also totalitarian). Sgrena's being a communist says absolutely nothing about what sort of person she is, except that she favors an economic system that promotes a more equal distribution of wealth than some other systems. It does not in any way suggest that she favors a totalitarian political system in order to bring about the economic system she favors.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:39 PM

troll - "The situation, as it appears to me at this point, is that soldiers as a checkpoint fired on a vehicle that did not slow down."

Says who? Its my understanding that the car was travelling quite slowly after making a sharp turn. When they rounded the turn, the soldiers opened fire.

Guess we will have to wait and see what comes out of the investigation. I'd rather read what Sgrena herself has to say in the next few weeks, months, years.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 02:41 PM

Don:

Both your version and my version of the first quote from Hillel are (of course) translations. I think the version I posted gives more the sense of Hillel's words.

Your second aphorism posted directly above precisely matches how I remember it and it has moved me as it has moved you.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 02:37 PM

I googled the Hillel quote, and I see what you mean. Most online sources seem to be fairly consistently, "who will be for me?" This may actually be it. I don't know Hebrew, but I do know that two people can translate the same statement in slightly varying ways. But I don't see that it changes the meaning all that much.

It's pretty similar to Jesus' "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Which is to say, "If I don't love myself, who will? But if I love only myself, what sort of creature am I?" (Ominous question.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 02:26 PM

I had a close friend who died of cancer about twenty years ago. He was not a musician, but he loved folk music, and during the Sixties, his house was always available on weekends if we folk music enthusiasts wanted to gather and have a songfest. He also had a massive collection of folk records, and as long as you were careful with them, you were welcome to borrow them to learn songs from them. He was one of Nature's noblemen.

He was of the Jewish persuasion, and hung on the wall of his living room, he had two small bits of parchment in frames with Hebrew script on them. I asked him once what they meant and he translated them for me. I liked them both, so I wrote them down and kept them. One was the quote by Hillel which I have posted above. I quoted it verbatim, the way he translated it for me. I am quite sure it is authentic, because, in addition to the consistency of its content, there is a poetic cohesion to it.

The other was the following:

Before he died, Rabbi Zusya of Hanipal said,
"In the world to come, they will not ask me, 'Why were you not Moses?'
They will ask me, 'Why were you not Zusya?'
                                                                              —Tales of Hasidim

Simple statements both, but they contain great wisdom.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 08:15 AM

Dianavan's posts and links offer an explanation for why Sgrena might at first have thought she was targeted, but it's a big leap from there to saying that she was targeted. Hasn't she dropped that allegation anyway, in her later interviews?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:14 AM

dianavan, I did not call you impolite.I simply said that if you keep your posts polite, I will do the same.

For your information, I have read the entire thread. From what little I have read of your postings, I have formed the opinion, possibly incorect, trhat you are one of those prople who believes that if everyone had the facts you do, why they would automatically accept your position as the correct one and if they don't they must be either misinformed, stupid, or evil.

So far your posts indicate a certain rigidity of position. As you say, my observations are based on a rather small sample. I shall continue to observe and will modify my opinion as the data comes in.

Of course I haven't spoken personally with any of the soldiers involved in the incident. It would be silly of me to even hint that I had.

Wherever did you get THAT idea?

While it is true that soldiers are trained to obey without thinking in combat situations, (it's a good survival technique) they can and do think in non-combat situations. Some of them go mad.

The situation, as it appears to me at this point, is that soldiers as a checkpoint fired on a vehicle that did not slow down. This was not just following orders but survival in a place where suicide car bombs are commonplace.

I'm unsure what information was withheld from whom ("How easy it is to withold information as a means to an end"). Perhaps you can fill me in on this one.

As far as your dislike of war goes, the only people that I ever knew who genuinely LIKED war were sociopaths. I rather doubt that this label applies to all those who believe that sometimes war is necessary to remove a threat to their country. Remember, no one ever considers themselves the bad guy.

I have no intention of getting into a discusion about the validity or lack of same with regards to Iraq.

I simply ain't going there.

If you want to know who I am, ask 'Spaw or Kendall or McGrath of Harlow, or CarolC. I tealize that I have wandered of the topic a little but, hey!, all information has SOME value.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 11:49 PM

troll - You said, "Talking to soldiers who have been there is called primary research, which, if you knew anything outside your own narrow little inbred political sphere, is an excellent method for checking the validity of the information coming in from secondary sources i.e. the media."

I know enough about soldiers and the effect of war on soldiers to dislike war completely. I also know that soldiers are trained, not to think, but to follow orders. I also know that they will go to great lengths to justify mans inhumanity to man. You have suggested that I should think for myself and that I do. You, however, are making plenty of assumptions based on very little information.

I doubt very much if you have talked to any of the soldiers who witnessed the attack on the Italian journalist (which is the subject of this thread) and I also doubt if you are any older or nastier than I am. You called me impolite. I don't think its very polite of you to accuse me of starting a war when all I am doing is stating an opinion.   

My post of Mar.11 at 1:51 A.M. states, "I certainly don't blame the soldiers. How easy it is to withold information as a means to an end. How easy it is to follow orders. How easy it is to kill someone with friendly fire if you perceive that person to be a threat. Its war. Shit happens."

From now on read the entire thread before you start pointing fingers. Its considered the polite thing to do and try not to let your mind wander away from the topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 10:34 PM

Don:

I'm not sure of your source of the Hillel quote, but I have never seen it that way and I haven't found it on the web that way. The version I'm familiar with:

If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
But if I am only for myself, what am I?
And if not now, when?

It dates to the first or second century of the common era.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 10:26 PM

Peter: Thank you for the response and the information. It is totalitarianism that I really hate, and both the nazis and the communists succumbed to it and were so far to the right and left that they circled around and met each other "on the backside" IMHO. I agree that Orwell once the shades were removed set totalitarianism as the enemy without necessarily making him FOR anything (except sex).

I will read the article you posted before I make more comments on eurocommunism. Obviously my literary references are from a more 'classic' period of political infighting. I am an admirer of Orwell particularly "1984" which I originally saw as a BBC production done very primitively and effectively at least 30 years ago, way more captivating than the rather limp eponymous movie. I was unaware of the story of a woman associating animals and politics giving Orwell the idea, but that in no way diminishes Orwell. If you are familiar with an ingenious Czech playwrite of the 30's, Karel Capek, he wrote a play variously called "The World We Live In" or "The Insect Play" where he likened various anthropomorphic qualities to different insects. I believe the capitalist was represented by a dung beetle. And of course even earlier Mayakovsky wrote a marvelous little ideological frolic called "Bedbug" which was quite funny for a communist.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Troll
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 09:39 PM

Don, thanks for the full quote.

"Mr. Guest". I thanked Don for giving the full quote. I had never seen it written out that way. Had I done so, I would not have used it.

Just who are my "esteemed leaders"?

Since you don't know a bloody thing about me, you are making a lot of assumptions. But then, You certainly want to substantiate YOUR POV which seems to be that I'm some wild-eyed fundamentalist Bushite who has to stand on a chair to tie his (or her) shoes.

I still have no respect for anyone who hides behind the "guest" label. This attitude seems to bother you.

Tough.

Dinavan, your obvious contempt for the military only betrays your abysmal ignorance of it.

Talking to soldiers who have been there is called primary research, which, if you knew anything outside your own narrow little inbred
political sphere, is an excellent method for checking the validity of the information coming in from secondary sources i.e. the media.

But of course, you already have the truth don't you. You don't need to check. Your sources are the only really factual ones, aren't they.
You don't need to think for yourself because your sources of information do it for you.

Kinda hard to tell the difference between a fundamentalist Christian, a fundamentalist Islamist and those true believers who ahve all the political answers.

In closing, let me say that you don't want to start a war. I'm a lot older and nastier than you ever dreamed possible. Keep your posts polite and I'll do the same.

BTW, thats "troll" with a lower case "t".

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 09:31 PM

In Science, Hysteresis (where the psychologist term hysterical originates) is the process whereby a system can be driven in 2 directions like a pendulum, but unlike a pendulum which moves smoothly along its path, suddenly jumps from one position to another. Political systems work like that - pressure builds for change, then it happens suddenly when people are not expecting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 07:21 PM

This is the best (and seemingly objective) interview I've read so far:

http://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2005/03_Marzo/11/sgrena.shtml

I feel so sad for this woman. I can't even imagine how horrible it must have been to be a hostage, be the target of U.S. troops, be protected by a man who lost his life and then be called a liar.

I am equally sorry that the brave man who lost his life is now being blamed for not informing the U.S. This is truly the bottom of the pit. I will never, never trust that the U.S. (under Bush) is anybodies ally.

What will it take for the people of the U.S., Britain, and Australia to take to the streets?