BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:55 PM

It's Monday night and Ms. Sgrena is making charges that the US targeted her because it disapproves of ransoming the captives taken by insurgent/terrorist/kidnappers.

1) I agree that it is a poor not to say counterproductive policy to ransom such captives.
2) I really doubt that the US targets ransomed captives, particularly as a roadside target.
3) The 'journalist' in question has volunteered this as an unfounded accusation which calls into question her status as a journalist.
4) During an interview with her admittedly bad English a couple days ago, she said she was in the back seat. Now she says she knows what speed they were doing as well as the fact that there were no warnings from the Americans.

So I'm sensing some serious bogosity on the part of Ms Sgrena.

For their part the Americans say it was an impromptu checkpoint, which they do many times for many reasons, this time because there was an American government official due at the airport.

I agrew with Raedwulf that there are no impartial humans involved in this affair, and unless it was on tape we'll never know. But a good man is gone and the spin is gaining momentum.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:52 PM

One of the initial reports that came out was that the Italians claim that they had been pre-approved to go throught the check-point without having to stop (not a normal circumstance), but that the troops at the check-point had not been so informed. All they knew was that a car was approaching, they signaled it to stop, and it kept on coming, so they did what they were supposed to do. After all, as far as they knew, it could have been loaded with explosives.

But we'll probably never know. Everybody in this one has an ax to grind.

No matter which side you sniff, it smells a bit rotten.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Kaleea
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:55 PM

We may never know the whole truth about this & many other aspects of this war, and this is unfortunate. The pentagon poop sheet for the reporters tells us what they want us--the people--to know. The generals & leaders at the top speak of "collateral damage," perhaps as real estate. timothy mcveigh also spoke of collateral damage, but as human lives---that which was necessary to further his cause. Many of the US & UN troops have most assuredly been listed in that category. I see the ones who made it out alive, from what ever where ever hell they were sent to, all the time when I take my father to & from the local VA Medical Center.   "collateral damage" or the injured, MIA, KIA, casualties of war, mysterious illnesses seen in veterans, VietNam vets in the streets. It won't stop as long as politicians keep "taking us" to war as they sit in their posh offices & homes provided at the taxpayers' expense. Oh, yeah. The war at our expense, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: gnu
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:52 PM

Top notch. Don't fuck with the eagle til you learn to fly.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:41 PM

They lead in "unfriendly fire" too, don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:30 PM

On the button, Raedwulf.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 04:58 PM

One undisputable fact is, that the US are top of the league when it comes to "friendly fire".

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 03:10 PM

Charlie Noble said:

It's just another sad case of collateral damage.

Despite the way that phrase is thrown around in the media, the term "collateral damage" is a term of art in the US military. It does not refer to damage or wounding or death of personnel; it refers to damage to real estate and/or infrastructure, incidental to military operations directed to actual military targets. Thus, damage to a museum, say, beside an attacked strategic bridge would constitute "collateral damage", whereas the wounding or death of someone within the museum is NOT "collateral damage".

It's is a very specific and useful term which, like to many other useful words and phrases in the language, has been thrown around so carelessly that it is likely to cause misunderstanding.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 02:28 PM

Nope, Wesley, sounds about right actually. Machine guns aren't supposed to be deadly accurate, they're not designed to be (that's what snipers are for). They're supposed to lay down a large volume of fire in a short space of time (600 rounds a minute, or thereabouts, per barrel) within a reasonably (not precisely) accurate area to suppress (i.e kill for preference) hostile activity.

A car heading towards you at any sort of normal road speed is probably moving faster than you'd like (machine guns are really anti infantry weapons) & unless the road is dead straight & the car is heading directly towards you...

The saddest part of this is the death of Nicola Calipari, a genuine hero in a world & age that uses superlatives much too freely. The next saddest thing is that no-one will ever know the truth of what happened. The US military is not going to tell the truth, because the military never does (the US is no worse, & not much better, than anyone else in this regard), even if it knows what the truth actually is (not always the easiest thing in the world to establish). The eyewitnesses are in no position to be objective.

But a very brave man is dead as a result. RIP Signor Calipari.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:36 PM

A tank unloads close to 400 rounds on a car and only one person was killed ? Either the gunner is a very poor shot or the folks in the car were VERY lucky. Something doesn't sound right here.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:35 PM

"" please do not believe any statment from the Guardian [UK] regarding deaths by friendly fire, according to them it is always the US's fault, did you ever read anything different?. ""


So blind faith in one source is justified, but not in another?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:17 PM

Not what I read in the Guardian [UK], "direct line of fire" was not stated, please do not believe any statment from the US regarding deaths by friendly fire, according to them it is always the other peoples fault, did you ever read anything different?.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:01 PM

"Another 'unfortunate incident', Private Gardi Gardev a member of a Bulgarian patrol was shot dead near Baghdad last Friday, the Bulgarians stated that the firing had come from a nearby US post."

And if more of the story were included we'd learn that the Bulgarian patrol had been firing at an Iraqi car and that a U.S. communications post was in a direct line of fire behind the car. Oddly enough the U.S. communications post ordered return fire. Apparently the Bulgarians were unaware of the location of the U.S. communications post.

No one deserved to die in this incident either but they did. I suppose the U.S. is ultimately the blame for initiating this discretionary war and occupation, while relying on inaccurate intelligence.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:19 AM

It is only collateral damage so it does not count. Now if it was an American that would be different!

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 09:56 AM

No, I think it may be the after-effects of raising some not too bright American teenagers on "shooter" videogames, and then sending them overseas to shoot real people. Then too, it could be that, plus the heroin...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:42 AM

Another "unfortunate incident", Private Gardi Gardev a member of a Bulgarian patrol was shot dead near Baghdad last Friday, the Bulgarians stated that the firing had come from a nearby US post.
It`s all that heroin they are getting from Afghanastan.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:36 AM

I could be wrong but it still seems like another deadly unfortunate incident in a war zone. The Italians probably should have requested an escourt, especially since they were traveling after dark. People do stupid things when they are in a hurry and I think there is some blame to be shared by both the Italians and the U.S. Armed Forces,

No one deserved to die, of course, and this incident will receive much more attention as it's been pointed out than if it happened to an Iraqi.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:25 AM

She was quoted as saying it was dark, there were no lights or signals of any kind and suddenly a tank opened up with about 400 rounds... doubtless why she believes that it was an ambush - of course the soldiers with their little green goggles would have seen clearly the approaching vehicle from a long distance away ...

Yes, George has promised a whitewash inquiry...

He has had to make a noise, cause the Italian public have been making loud protests about wanting their troops home - I don't know if that is before Xmas... ;-) [Aussie Political Joke!]

Of course now that we know that she works for a Communist Newspaper, all Right Thinking Americans will just doubtless believe George...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:59 AM

Well here's what Kendall said about it in another thread: "Over there, you are surrounded by friend and foe who all look alike. They (the Italians) asked for it when they refused to stop."

So it's obviously a good bit more simple than some mudcatters have realised - though I'm not sure in what way an Italian journalist looks like an Iraqi insurgent (or Syrian insurgent for that matter). Makes you wonder why Bush expressed regret, why Rumsefld apologised and why the US has launched an inquiry.

It's just a pity Ms Sgrena and her colleagues have a government and head of state to speak up for them. If they'd been Iraqi, with no such namby-pamby luxury to speak of, they could have ben murdered without the slightest risk of embarrassment to the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:44 AM

.. as bloody usual ...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: NH Dave
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 02:46 AM

Tonight NBC News showed the sign the Italians drove past, giving notice that there was a check point ahead and that all vehicles must stop. The sign was written in English and in what I suppose to be Arabic or Iraqi. I suppose if the Americans had considered that Italian intel experts and their drivers could not read English, they would have written it in Italian as well.

President Bush has apologised, and assured the Italians that there would be a full inquiry.

On the other hand, our troops have had their fill of locals trying for instant salvation ignoring such signs, detonating their explosives and killing everyone around, so we have learned that prompt, well though out action frequently foils those plans.

I spent many months sent to various countries where English is not the predominant language. I felt it incumbent on me to learn how the locals wrote signs telling automobile drivers to stop, yield, one way, and avoid other instantly deadly situations.

I feel very sorry for the Italians, the newswoman, and especially for the heroic Italian Secret Service Man, but accidents and death are a constant companion in situations like these. This is why we call it war.   

I expect that as this story plays out, everyone will be found to have been doing his job as detailed in his operating instructions and litle additional blame will be laid on the American troops or the Italian driver.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:11 AM

From CBC news:

"The U.S. military said the Americans used hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and fired warning shots to get the speeding car to stop at the roadblock.

But in an interview with Italian La 7 TV, Sgrena disputed the claim, saying "there was no bright light, no signal." She also has said the car was travelling at normal speed.

Her editor, Gabriele Polo, said Italian officials told him 300-400 rounds were fired at the car. Italian military officials said two other intelligence agents were wounded in the shooting; U.S. officials said it was only one. "

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 09:01 PM

I suspect that a lot of people are getting accidentally shot through misunderstanding and nervous soldiers. Most of them you won't hear this much about, however. If it convinces the Italian government to listen to its own populace and pull its troops out of Iraq, fine with me. Italy should not be tacitly supporting this oil war anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 09:01 PM

Unfortunately the lady herself is saying that the car was not speeding, and that she was deliberately ambushed with no sounds or warning shots - 400 bullets struck the car - she was carrying information that she says is detrimental to the USA you see ... more conspiracies, no doubt...

Wonder how long now before the Italian Politicians bend to the local popular pressure to leave Iraq now?

The US troops on the ground are doubtless scared, terrified that any vehicle, or anything by the side of the road may explode and kill them. The British had many years to get used to that sort of situation in Ireland, while US money was being channelled to the IRA - the US troops are in comparison poorly trained for the sort of situation they now find themselves in - not really their fault I agree!

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 08:03 PM

It's a war zone. Journalists are no more protected than anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:52 PM

It's just another sad case of collateral damage.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 06:49 PM

When you dont have any exciting news you try and create some? I think it was done on purpose; and is a valuable lesson for all journalists to take war seriously.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 06:42 PM

Did you say for the Communist daily? Ipso facto my friend!She claims it was a deliberate act.

Subject: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 06:15 PM

Sorry about the typo in the Subject Title. This issue cropped up in another thread so I thought I'd start a new one.

New York Times Article Here

I heard her (Ms. Sgrena, a 56-year-old reporter for the communist daily Il Manifesto) interviewed by the BBC. Her English is not too good, but it is clear she maintains the Italians were not aware of a checkpoint or demand to stop. The Americans say they fired at the engine block. She told her English interviewer that she and her guard were in the back seat. The driver leapt out of the car and tried to identify himself, apparently he wasn't hit, though the car was destroyed.

That's all I've heard, other then that Rumsfeld apologized. Clearly a tragic situation and again, I'll wait a bit for more information. If the Americans didn't make it clear it was a checkpoint, the apology should come from the top. But right now it isn't clear. I thought everybody is supposed to stop at checkpoints which would make them pretty obvious.

I was told a true story about a man who drove through a military base checkpoint on purpose. He was depressed and trying to get shot and he succeeded, and that was within a city in the US.

According to the interview, she said they were approaching the airport, which is a natural place for a checkpoint.