BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 02:11 PM

....Still waiting for facts...

Thanks McG. We now have THREE versions and counting...
Silvio Berlusconi, who wasn't there, said the Italians stopped for the Americans BEFORE being shot.

Ms. Sgrena has said the Italians were not speeding and were not warned there was a checkpoint and received no orders to stop and were fired upon from a tank (I heard her on the BBC two days ago).

The Americans as of Tuesday night were saying that the Italian car was speeding and not responding to signals to stop. The photos that are supposed to be of the car show at most bullet damage.

From peripheral 'sources' I've heard that the Italians say the Americans were aware of what was going down. The Americans say they didn't know. Ms. Sgrena's article referenced by McGrath seems to indicate that it was considered important to keep the Americans from knowing.

Ms. Sgrena's article appears to be translated by someone with better English than she appeared to have when she was interviewed by the BBC. Reading the article makes me feel that she is a journalist in name only, or perhaps limited by her knowledge of the language if she wrote the English herself. Nevertheless it doesn't provide a firm timeline nor the observational acuity that I associate with perceptive people. Kind of like Hunter S. Thompson of recent memory only not at the Kentucky races and on a different 'stream' of consciousness. Let's be fair, the lady has been kidnapped, released, shot and wounded. But why does her narrative stop at shots fired? What happaned when the Americans found out who they were. There's an important point to be made. If she was indeed a conscious American target, and the Americans had killed her protector, why didn't they finishy the job. Then there would be only ONE story to tell. She also indicates a level of naivete that is normally reserved for Europeans to apply to Americans. In her articles conclusion of impressions from her captivity she seems to be surprised that kidnappers who force her to make taped entreaties don't want her to report from an 'anti-American' perspective. I don't know whether her charges of American 'targetting' of her car is due to a pre-conceived orientation, Stockholm sydrome, or a need to 'spin' an explanation from the chaos of events that occur in violent situations. But it ain't rational. And the duty of a journalist is to provide a rational framework in order to better understand events. Otherwise, she's just another body stopping a bullet for someone.

One interesting bit of 'information' in Sgrena's screed: The driver was on a cell-phone! This is the best argument I've heard to date for not driving while using those things. She may have inadvertently advanced the puzzle of what happened if by her words we can consider that the driver was distracted from THE MOST DANGEROUS ROAD IN BAGHDAD because he was using the phone!

McGrath, rather than murkier it could be getting clearer, BUT>>>>

....STILL WAITING FOR THE FACTS

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 01:59 PM

Like I said earlier, Kevin, we'll never know The Truth; and too many will pick & choose which "facts" they want to believe. I remain cynical about all 3 sides (the (US) military is almost incapable of telling the unspun truth, the Communist Italian journalist not only is not in a position to be objective by personal experience, she has a twice-over natural bent for distortion, the Italian govt is currently trying to recover a minor PR disaster of it's own i.e. "everyone" "knows" that they deal with with kidnappers & pay big ransoms...) - who is likely to tell the unvarnished truth in these circumstances?

Incidentally, it was Wesley S who first mentioned "tank", but whether it was or not is rather beside the point. Wesley also stated "400 rounds" which clearly implies a machine gun. Neither a main cannon, nor a single barrel 20mm can achieve this rate of fire. Whether it was a tank or Humvee, both mount HMGs. I'm suspicious of the alleged photo of the car, though. It looks remarkably undamaged - even the windscreen looks intact. Does anyone know by who, & how, this photo was released?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 01:27 PM

Here's a piece in today's Guardian by Giuliana Sgrena about all this.

This is looking murkier and murkier - here is what the Italian Prime Minister has been saying about it:

The Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, said today the driver of the car in which an Italian agent was killed by US forces in Iraq last week had obeyed orders to stop.

Mr Berlusconi said the car, which was taking the freed Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena to Baghdad airport, pulled up immediately when American soldiers flashed a warning light at it.

The prime minister told the Italian senate that the intelligence agent Nicola Calipari, who received a state funeral in Rome on Monday, had US military authorisation for his operation to secure the release of Ms Sgrena...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 12:40 PM

William Shatner was in no way responsible for this latest Iraqi fiasco, Wolfgang, so just back off... :-) I resent the way you try to drag Shatner into every situation and make it appear that he is responsible for all the troubles in the World. I think you should get psychiatric help.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:44 AM

GCT? No, making fun of Mudcatters who know already who's to blame.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:34 AM

Gawd - Typos...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:29 AM

GDT! ADP?





















Good Conspiracy Theory! Any Documentable Proof?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: John Hardly
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:07 AM

The "reporter" was not kidnapped. She colluded with the terrorists (she was as anti_American as they) to get the multi-million dollar ransom from the Italians which they unwisely (illegally?) paid to the terrorists.

Upon release, the "reporter" failed to take into account that there would be checkpoints, and didn't have a believable answer as to how she had secured a release from terrorists whose habit was to behead those they've kidnapped.

That inability to answer inquiry at a chickpoint caused panic in the Italian car. They decided to try to run the checkpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:31 AM

A different angle:
Italy, some sources say, has as a consequence of that incident changed its never publicly stated policy in Iraq. Up to now they have paid in the case of abductions of Italians in Iraq. Several million dollars of Italian money have been transferred this way to those people who abduct, bomb, and shoot daily in Iraq. This handling is said to have been stopped now by Berlusconi.

Giuseppe d'Avanzo (in Repubblica) speaks of "collective (Italian) hypocrisy", gives Italy a part of the guilt for the death and writes: We have paid to get Agliani, Cupertino and Stefio back. We have paid to save the two Simones. We have paid to be able to give a burial to (murdered) Fabrizio Quattrocchi. The Italians pay. This maxim is a catastrophe in a country in which the security of all Western people is in jeopardy.

One Civil servant is quoted by the 'Corriere della Sera': It is now no more possible that the guerilla in Iraq shops rockets in Dubai with Italian money.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:12 AM

Ok Military Experts - what is that on the top of that Humvee - it's not a WWII vintage .50 cal MG...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 04:42 AM

Here's a link to the photo claimed to be that of Sgrena's car. It's the same one shown on ABC television news Tuesday evening.

Attributed Sgrena car photo

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:59 AM

di-van:

I agree it should be a no-brainer. Thanks for pointing that out.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 12:51 AM

Robo, you said, "As I mentioned above, there are valid military reasons to withhold information from the enemy."

Thats a no-brainer, duh............

What about communication in the field with your own forces and with your allies? Seems to be a common problem with the U.S. Commander in Chief. Maybe if the pentagon would spend more time communicating in the field and less time manipulating communication at home, they might have a little more credibility in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 10:30 PM

Nope. A TANK is considerably larger, much more heavily armored, runs on treads rather than tires, and is equipped with various kinds of armament including a .50 cal. machine gun and a 105 mm. cannon.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 10:10 PM

" An armoured Humvee - "tank" seems a fair enough word to use."

Not if you're a journalist reporting the facts, along with a lot of other facts not born out by events.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:18 PM

HOLY BATSHIT!!! What's that on top?!!!

Don't look nuttin' like what was in the movie!

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:06 PM

An armoured Humvee - "tank" seems a fair enough word to use.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:46 PM

I have now heard that it was not technically a 'tank' but a couple of Humvees - I do believe that .50 cal MGs are turret mounted on top - at least if my major source of US Military info is correct - Hollywood movies such as 'Blackhawk Down'.... :-)

A couple of Humvees would be more believable if it was a spontaneous temporary roadblock. To most people with no great military knowledge or 'hobby interest' in military hardware, they would doubtless be thought of as 'tanks'.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:33 PM

So is that why US broadcasters link Iraq with 911, Robo? To confuse the enemy? That's supposing Obie's right with his assertion. I must say it seems incredible that anyone could make that link.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:31 PM

"the excuse to remain is that civil war may break out when they leave" - the precise excuse which the Syrians have given for their presence in Lebanon, which Bush has been so dismissive about.

............
"Her story appears to be more and more bogus." Why, she probably shot herself and Nicola, as a way of making the Americans look bad...

"Bogus" in this case presumably meaning "not consistent with the version given by the soldiers who actually did the shooting".

Here is the (equally "bogus") version by the Italian foreign minister:

"In Rome, Fini said the Italian reconstruction 'doesn't fully coincide with what has been communicated by U.S. authorities,' including on whether the car was speeding and if the occupants had been warned.

According to Fini the car was 'traveling at a speed that couldn't have been more than 25 miles per hour.' A light, he said, was flashed at the car after a curve and that gunfire started immediately afterward. It lasted 15 to 20 seconds, he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:50 PM

I just saw ABC news which (supposedly) showed a picture of the car and it's hard to imagine a tank had anything to do with it. The car looked to be in pretty good shape. The Americans are claiming that the vehicle was traveling VERY fast and barely under control and in no ways prepared to stop for anything. I'm putting this in now because my last post gave more credence to Ms. Sgrena's story than I should have. Her story appears to be more and more bogus. I am now going to wait for more reports and hard evidence.

Obie I appreciate your understanding, but we're there now. Going back in history, maybe the Yanks didn't make such a good landing on Omaha Beach. Our aquatic tanks foundered and our officers were shot down. But we made it past the bunkers. I'm glad we didn't turn around during the Battle Of The Bulge.

Another thing to remember is there was a Pre-D-Day major practice landing on the coast of England which turned into a horror show. German PT boats started potting away at the forces and over a thousand men were lost. This entire operation and all losses were kept out of the news for years and the casualties loaded into D-Day landing figures. As I mentioned above, there are valid military reasons to withhold information from the enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:30 PM

These incidents are happening all the time in Iraq but this one made your news because it was such a high profile. For a country with such pride in freedom of the press, I wonder why there is not a demand for more objective news coverage. In Canada we can get CBS, NBC, FOX, CNN, ABC, & PBS. They all seem to downplay what is happening and continue to link Iraq to 911.
I can understand the terrible stressful situations that your soldiers face and I am sure that they are doing their best to remain alive until they can return home. Of course that makes them trigger happy! The sin and shame lies with the leaders who send your fine young people into this situation. Sadam is long gone and the time is long past for Bush to be gone as well.
   If the excuse to remain is that civil war may break out when they leave, that is the same folly of fools that keeps Britsh troops in Northern Ireland. As for establishing democracy in Iraq, any thinking fool will realize that it can't be imposed by an occupying force.
               Obie

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:29 PM

Sgrena has said that when the shooting started, she lay down on the floor in front of the back seat and that Nicola Calipari covered her with his body to shield Sgrena from the bullets. So considering the line of fire theory and the fact that they were supposed to have been aiming at the engine block, it would seem to me most likely that the driver of the car would have been the first one killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:26 PM

Haven't followed Ebbie's link yet but shouldn't that quote she's provided be amended in one respect? I would suggest "No, if they want you, and they've got you bracketed and braced, that's the end of someone." As it stands now, it bestows on the US military a level of competence that they often fail to achieve. (Not their fault, from everything I hear. They seem to be thrust into situations for which they have no proper training.)

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:15 PM

what i see as the major issue to be illuminated by this act is that the US forces, 150,000 strong, absolutely cannot secure a stretch of road between bagdad and the airport. this means that the force that is constantly touted as the greatest military in the history of the world IS IMPOTENT. has no clothes. sucks. can be snookered by a few thousand insurgents with no army, no navy, no air force, no battle lines.US citizens are mesmerized because we have the biggest fireworks and the best propaganda but, guess what?! the people united can beat us. they ARE beating us. and so our demoralized troops lash out and these sad events happen. and they are not going to stop. the bush crime family is doing its best to destroy our country.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:12 PM

As I understand it, it's standard operating procedure when a car approaching a check-point fails to stop when signaled to do so to fire at the engine compartment in an effort to disable the car. It's fairly obvious that when the shooting started, the car was still approaching the check-point, so the engine compartment and the passenger compartment would be more-or-less in line—not broadside to the line of fire. At the same time, under the assumption that the approaching car (which had [allegedly] ignored signals to stop, remember), the soldiers were more concerned with stopping what might very well be an explosive-laden car driven by suicide bombers than they were in the safety and well-being of the car's occupants. Even assuming that the shooting was accurate, under such circumstances not even the most precise marksman can guarantee that his bullets will strike the engine-block head-on and not hit it obliquely and ricochet on through the passenger compartment (a machine-gun, remember—not the most easy firearm to shoot with precision).

I have no knowledge of what actually did happen (any more than anyone else who has posted here—let's face it, this is all speculation), but I do have some knowledge of a) firearms; b) geometry; and c) the behavior of bullets hitting hard objects such as a cast-iron engine block at oblique angles. The bullet tends to continue in the same direction, deflected a bit (generally at a reciprocal angle) by skipping off the hard surface. There have even been instances of bullets fired across a body of fairly smooth water in which the bullet skipped off the water's surface, like skipping a flat rock.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 05:59 PM

I started my answer a bit back, then the web site or the computer hiccuped so by the time i had it ready again there were two more comments posted. So starting with the latest and working my way back:

I think someone remarked earlier on that the car was hit with a spray of bullets from a tank machine gun. Them is not meant for accuracy. The soldiers' story that has been extant is that they were firing at the motor to stop the vehicle. But with the power of those guns and a spray of bullets, the occupants are subjected not merely to bullets but to the shrapnel effect of bits of sheet metal and engine block torn shredded and flying. Apparently it's a miracle that anyone in that car survived.



Drawing back a bit from the immediacy of this particular event, one would like to believe that after initial confusion someone comes up with and regularizes a procedure to control access on these roads. I'd like to believe that a conference would be held between the yanks, the brits, the poles, anyone else doing this kind of work, and the best ideas utilized so that anyone but especially innocent, possibly frightened and illiterate Iraqis would be able to pull in to these sites without feeling they were making alife and death attempt.


Unfortunately as soon as that is done, the opposition finds a way to use it to blow someone up. I heard stories (on the AM radio so who knows, right?) that some innocent appearing Iraqi families were used as bomb carriers by going in under a terrorist's gun or with relatives held hostage.

Part of the apparent lack of statistics might be that our guys don't want their guys to know what has worked the best.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:45 PM

Here's what I find difficult to understand...

The driver survived. If the people at the checkpoint were so concerned about the vehicle being used for the purpose of causing damage to the airport or anyone in it, or even to the people at the checkpoint, why were they firing all of the bullets into the passengers in the back seat, instead of into the driver? And if, as I've read somewhere, the driver was approaching the checkpoint personnel on foot, with his hands up (hence his not being killed), why were the checkpoint personnel still firing bullets into the passengers in the back seat?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:40 PM

A Journalist's Opinion

"Call me crazy, but I think that if the military wants you dead, and has you in their gunsights with a kill order in hand, you're gone. Period. If the military or civilian command had wanted Sgrena dead, why did they not use the .20mm cannon that was on the scene? The rounds from that thing are as big as Frisbees and would have done the job. If the military or civilian command had wanted Sgrena dead, why did military medics tend to her after the attack?

"No, if they want you, and they've got you bracketed and braced, that's the end of you. If this attack had been deliberate, we'd be reading Sgrena's obituary today. It is terrible that she was shot, and she is to be commended for her courage in reporting on the Fallujah incursion from an eyewitness perspective, but the attack was not deliberate

"The discussion of this, while necessary and justified by other incidents and accusations of journalists being targeted, is wide of the point we should be focusing on. Giuliana Sgrena is not the most important person in this story. The center of this story revolves around two people: Nicola Calipari and the soldier who shot him."

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:35 PM

"Good press", "Bad press" - is that really what it's about?

Rather than trying to find some way of killing as few innocent people as is humanly possible. Shouldn't an expression like "war on terror" imply that that kind of thing is not what is supposed to happen.

At least this killing is going to focus attention, for a short time anyway, and there are people with a bit of media muscle involved who are going to keep it alive for a little bit longer than would otherwise happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 02:50 PM

The US forces in Viet Nam got horrible bad press because they DID keep "body count"! You can't win fer losin' !!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 02:38 PM

Of course for examples of British soldiers shooting civilians at checkpoints and in other circumstances, there's no need to go back to the 18th century, or across the Atlantic, as I know ard macha wouldn't deny.

There has evidently been a deliberate decision by the authorities not to collate statistics about killings at checkpoints in Iraq. However from the occasional news stories that make it through, when there is a specially dramatic or horrifying incident, it is pretty clear that there have been an awful lot of these killings. And the fact that no statistics are kept seems to imply that there can have been no serious attempt to investigate what went wrong in these cases.

I find the implication in a few posts that, if there had been a failure to inform the US authorities, this would mean that there could be no blame in shooting up the vehicle a bit bizarre.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 01:42 PM

ard:
I would take it as a favor if you would put in a transliteration of how to pronounce your no doubt lovely name in standard American (or to you, 'dumbed down')English.

It is not always US originated 'trigger happy' slaughter. It is wherever and whenever young men at arms are stationed in durance vile. Need I remind you of the Boston Massacre, where a group of young English sponsored soldiers fired into a civilian mob merely because they were being pelted with stones. Are you aware they were put on trial IN BOSTON by those civilians, defended by John Adams, and found 'not guilty'?

Were you paying attention a few months ago when a French aid flight was fired upon by African resistance (or government) fighters. That the French with no more of a how-de-do then took out the entire airforce of that small nation?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:51 PM

Again quite simply, why is it always the US involved in trigger-happy slaughter?, and you mention SPIN, right now the US dirty tricks dept are spinning out some incredible explanation that will only be believed by the citizenry of that land.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:45 PM

The Italians say that "everything was cleared" or something like that. Cleared when, and with whom? I understand that this was a sort of on-the-fly temporary roadblock, which is done routinely. It's quite conceivable that the clearance, if any, was passed along to those in charge of regular roadblocks, but that it didn't get to another organization which decided at some point to put up a temporary. Is that just speculation? Of course.

But the idea that there was what would amount to an ambush to kill a rescued victim because of disapproval of negotiations with the other side just won't wash. Not just on a self-serving basis of "That's reprehensible, and WE wouldn't do a thing like that," but on the much better basis that it would serve no purpose, and couldn't be kept quiet afterwards.

Now, under stressful conditions, with snap judgments having to be made, it's quite possible that some young soldier(s) made a bad mistake. That is quite common, both in warfare and in police work. I wouldn't be at all surprised.

But an ambush? Naaaah!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:20 PM

Hey, thanks for the last few posts, esp. clarification by Wolfgang. My comments about being in the rear seat (as I understood from the interview I heard with Ms. Sgrena on the Beeb, AND last night's discussion among journalists on Emily Rooney's show "Greater Boston") I agree that Ms. Sgrena might have discussed the issue with the driver after the fact, but in that case she didn't KNOW the speed, she only KNEW what she'd been told. As a journalist and in particular in reconstructing these sad events, she has a responsibility to stick to what she actually knows. Secondly, it has been my personal experience that in an unfamiliar vehice, I have been going much faster than I thought I was, and that was in daylight not under fire.

As of this date, the Italian officials have apparently dismissed Ms. Sgrena's unfounded charges that she was targeted, but are very anxious to have an adequate explanation from the Americans, which they are absolutely entitled to.

I reviewed some past unhappy occasions where someone's military took out some civilians or 'friendlys' and the common denominator seems to be that there are several layers of stories that must be gone through. The initial denial, the initial explanation blaming the victim, the gradual retreat as parts of the story fall to investigators, and the final "close as you're gonna get" assemblage, often put together not by the military, but by someone trained in fact checking. Often the military will give it the nod, sort of like what happened with "Blackhawk Down".

I'm always interested in how some parties chime into a thread with all the answeres before all the facts are out, and what motivates that kind of reaction. I'm thinking of starting a thread purely based on the idea of 'SPIN'. I'm not sure if it needs to be based on an event or can be purely about perception, but right now I don't want to use someone's death as a centerpiece.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 09:50 AM

Gee, Peter, you're right. I wasn't there and I don't have access to any inside information. I was making what I thought was a reasonable speculation. Sorry if it seemed like a conclusion.

I expect there will be at some more details that will come from whatever investigation is completed, given the concern of our Italian ally and the interest of the media. But I could be wrong.

Were there tank cannon rounds or machine gun fire directed at this car? People seem to be talking about both. Tank cannon rounds wouldn't have left much of anything to investigate in my humble opinion.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:34 AM

And why would a passenger have to be sitting upfront to know whether warning shots were fired? I wonder if some of you guys realise how prejudiced you're sounding.

Peter, you're mixing up different posts from different people. Robomatic has never mentioned warning shots but only warnings or demands to stop. The 'warning shots' have been mentioned by Foolestroupe and (in a quote) by Dianavan. Robomatic's remark makes a lot of sense, if he's speaking about visual information which is much more difficult to get from a backseat.

And, BTW, I agree that I can hear shots from the backseat as easily as I can from the front seat. But warning shot do not sound much different from targeting shots. However, from the front seat I might see the direction of the shots much better than from the front seat. That's what makes the difference between a warning shot and later shots.

However, prejudiced contributions without waiting for the result of inquiries are the backbone of all Mudcat political discussions.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:58 AM

"The Italians probably should have requested an escourt, especially since they were traveling after dark. People do stupid things when they are in a hurry and I think there is some blame to be shared by both the Italians and the U.S. Armed Forces."

How did you reach that conclusion Charley? If it's just your idle speculation, why no wait for the inquiry, which might at least be able to establish who knew what, when. According to Italy's foreign minister, Gianfranco Fini, "all the necessary contacts were made." If that is the truth, we must hope there is some incontrovertible documentary evidence, otherwise it seems there are plenty of Americans only too keen to clutch at any excuse for blaming the victims.

Robomatic, why would a backseat passenger not be able to estimate the speed of a car? In Ms Sgrena's case, there was a driver, and it's not inconceivable that she's discussed the matter with him. Stranger things have happened. And why would a passenger have to be sitting upfront to know whether warning shots were fired? I wonder if some of you guys realise how prejudiced you're sounding. And no, that doesn't mean I buy Ms Sgrena's theory that she was targeted (a theory, incidentally, that she did not repeat in a recent BBC interview). It just means I'm willing to give the inquiry a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 04:23 AM

... as usual ...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:26 PM

Apparently no statistics are kept about killings at checkpoints in Iraq, although these are very common. The only relatively unusual thing about this one is that it involved non-Iraqis.

The suggestion that someone sitting in the backseat of a car cannot have any awareness of the speed of the vehicle is a bit strange. If Ms. Sgrena says they were travelling at 25 to 30 miles an hour, that seems pretty likely to have been the case. Especially since that is what the driver apparently says as well.

I doubt if an internal invesigation by the US authorities will be seen as adequate by the Italians. If Bush has any sense he'll ensure that full cooperation is given to a thorough independent investigation. But I doubt if that will be allowed.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:17 PM

Well gol danged....

Here are my reasons for thinking the US military palnned on killing this woman:

A.) Her driver was well aware of the dangers of driving to the airport and being so, would have beem taking all the precautions.

B.) Anyone with an I.Q. greater than that of an animal cracker would know not to speed at a US checkpoint.

C.) The US doesn't appreciate other countries negotiating with *insurgents*...

Had this been one tank round, yeah, okay maybe an accident. One tank round stops a car dead.... But this was two rounds... This, just as in last weeks assaniation in Lebenon, smells of neocon politics...

The message? Simple. Step outta line the man will come an' take you away...

Just more terrorism on the Bushites part...

Crooks, liars and murderers...

No wonder they don't support a World Court... Heck, these thugs would clog up the dockets...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:30 PM

Unfortunately bullets don't know they were started on their way by accident and seem to be unable to respond to subsequent requests to NOT hit the target they were aimed at.... My young (US - when they were living here for a while) cousin was nearly hit in the head by a .22 that discharged 'by accident' in their home.

Trigger happy is dangerous, but usually 'accidental'.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: DougR
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:21 PM

I don't think it was a deliberate act on the part of the U. S. forces. I agree with Charlie Noble. It was a sad accident.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:58 PM

As an American, all I can say is these are horrible events. Nobody wants to kill their friends. If you'll remember, there was a popular sports hero who volunteered for active service after 9/11 who was hit by friendly fire and killed in Afghanistan last year. It ain't just America's allies, it's Americans who are hit by friendly fire, and there is none of it good.

Right after I sent off my last post, a local TV show on journalistic issues covered this very subject. The show is mastered by Emily Rooney, a pretty savvy interviewer/ journalist (and daughter of Andy Rooney, erstwhile reporter and longtime commentator on 'Sixty Minutes'). Anyhow, Emily had on a military affairs specialist, an American Islamic Congress representative, and an American journalist all who are familiar with that route on which Ms. Sgrena was shot. Basically:

1) The affair happened at night, which is a poor time to be traveling. People with control over their schedules do not travel the route at night. Which led to the terrorists releasing Ms. Sgrena at night, an unfortunate setting for events to follow.

2) Pretty much all the people on the show had been told at one point or another when traveling the patrolled roads: "Gee, I almost lit you up" by American troops, meaning, they were thought to be traveling too fast, too close, or weren't expected when they thought they were, and came close to being targets.

3) They were all suspicious of Ms. Sgrena being so sure she was 'targeted', similar to my comments above.

4) American prestige is affected, and there better be an investigation, and it better be made transparent.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:34 PM

My dad was a RAAF WWII multi-engine pilot - he was stationed in Scotland for part of the time especially near the end of the European phase (incidentally his original training group from which he was detached due to temporary eye problems was almost wiped out during bombing runs over Europe) - one less than thrilling task was to tow a target drogue for the hot shit trainee fighter pilots to 'practice' on - he often came home with holes in the rear end - lucky the plane - an Anson if I remember - did not carry a tail gunner...

My mother's father marched around Flanders in WWI & acted as a prisoner guard (interesting incident where he took a loaded rifle off a prisoner!) in Australia during WWII.

Both liked Americans very much as individual people, but had an intense fear/dislike to be anywhere near the US military carrying live ammo! My mother's sister was an Yank War Bride, BTW...

'Friendly Fire' was well known by these 2 and talked about quietly and the US had the worst reputation. The line from the British guy who survived the US attack mentioned above about his friends saying "Don't worry about the enemy, but keep looking over your shoulder for the bloody Yanks!" which they said before he left was not so funny afterwards....

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:30 PM

Do you really believe that the best way to combat evil is to blow its head off with the biggest equaliser you can afford?

Yes indeed. Many of us do believe this, although I would ammend it to say that many of us believe that the best way to combat "evil" is to blow its head off with the biggest equaliser we can get our hands on whether we can afford it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:19 PM

Canadians learned about so-called, U.S. "friendly fire", very early on in this game.

Who needs enemies when you have friends like this?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:08 PM

"collateral damage"

I suppose I should know better than to use such jargon.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:08 PM

I don't know why anyone would be surprised by this story, and others of a similar nature.

Remember the first gulf war? The British army lost a total of fourteen men in that one, nine of them killed by one trigger happy pilot in an A10 Tankbuster, who apparently couldn't tell the difference between the obsolete Iraqi vehicles (mostly of Eastern origin), and our own bang up to date personnel carriers.

In every conflict from WW2 to Vietnam and beyond, stories abound of friendly fire incidents involving US troops, even artillery shelling their own front lines, and rear areas.

Of course there are instances of British, and other nationality, friendly fire incidents, but nowhere near as many. This may be related to the age old love affair between Americans and their guns. Time to think again guys. Do you really believe that the best way to combat evil is to blow its head off with the biggest equaliser you can afford? How does that make you any better than the people you shoot?

Most of us this side of the pond didn't want this war, and I suspect that most Americans didn't either. If the Blair/Bush siamese twins hadn't lied their heads off, we wouldn't have been there. I must say though that once we were there, I would feel safer around a bunch of Tommies than Yanks. It's all a question of how much time they spend thinking before they shoot.

DT.