melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!

Subject: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: buttonbox
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 05:29 PM

in the interest of debate - why do people go in for strange arrangements such as C# D G or D G C# or DG plus a row of odds & sods in order to improve the chromatic properties of the DG box as to lay in many keys requires learning all sorts of new fingering & bellows patterns.

Why not have a middle row in C and a row of accidentals either side of it! Of course such a system has been available for many years & is variably known as the BCC#, the British Button ;Box and The British Chromatic. Usually with the advantage of accordion bass (same both ways) and varying in size from hohner trichord 12 bass to shand morino 117 bass. Any new 3 row melodeon could be ordered with this tuning & a small number of accordion bass -some trichords were made with 12 melodeon bass but these are not much better than the 8 bass on a aBC box. Incidentally the British Button box as played by Jimmy Shand, John Kirkpatrick etc is also a very natural progression for BC or CC# players who are two thirds there already - the 3rd row makes life easier not more difficult
so why is the system not more popular?

has any bugger got any views on this?!

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 06:20 PM

Was this intentional or accidental?

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 08:24 PM

As i unnderstand things, what you're describing there is a B/C/C# Button Accordeon rather than a Melodeon.

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 11:08 PM

I think the reason for this goes down to a basic fact--if you wanted life to be simple, you wouldn't play a button squeezebox at all==

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 01:51 AM

It's the size of the thing. People prefer to stick to 2 rows for weight reasons. When players get a bit better they often experiment with extra rows, C#DG allows you to keep yor investoment in learning tunes, but often go back to 2 rows. They have no need for fully chromatic instruments as they are only playing in a limited range of keys anyway.

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: buttonbox
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 03:57 AM

the use of the terms melodeon ;& button accordion seem to depend on who you are anad where you come from. Yes I would agree that the bcc# is a button accordion but many, including the late Sir Jimmy Shand refered to BC c#d or BCC# boxes as a wee melodeon!. John Kirkpatrick uses the term British Button BOx,. Irish terminology is that all button boxes are button accordions exept the one row which is a melodeon. Many english plaayers (&non players!) refer to the lot as melodeons. does it realy matter whether you call it a melodeon or a button accordion with 2 rows of accidentals, at the end of the daay it is still going to be BCC# unless somebody designs one in ,say, D with 2 rows of odds & sods.The possible permutations are considerable but each one so made would only be playable (without a great deal of learning) by its creator. The BCC# on the other hand is definately a fully paid up member of the melodeon family and could be the answer for those who require a fully chromatic push pull box rather than trying to sort of add chromatic bits to a DG

some bugger must have some views on this

bb

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 04:41 AM

Nothing that would make much sense to button box guy I suppose.

I do have empathy for the 'button people' but am a 'keyboard guy' myself. I am struggling (from time to time and as the energy is there!) with a McCann English Concertina.

Now there are some musical stylistic things that button boxes that make different sounds on push and pull do apparently easier, but the same note in both directions on a keyboard is easier for me. Piano, Harpsichord, and Pipe Organ (lots of other keyboard instruments too!) - I have too much baggage to spend ages relearning motor skills - something I have some minor problems with anyway.

BTW, I know of some English Concertina Players that can emulate the sound and playing style of Anglo Concertinas, but when everybody is going to be faking it all on a midi generator one day eventually anyway... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: ConcertinaChap
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 04:46 AM

Well, I'm doing my best to add to the confusion by having a special melodeon made for me by Stormy Hyde. The inner row is accidentals and reverses, the middle row is G, and the outer row is D a fifth above. Anglo players will immediately recognise this as the layout of the G/D anglo, and I call the beast the Anglodeon.

Chris

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: buttonbox
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 05:05 AM

hi chris
what accidentals are you having on the inner row? are th;ey; yur choice or are you basing them on those on an anglo concertina ? is there a common layout for the accidentals on anglo's

cheers

bb

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: Torctgyd
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 05:57 AM

Personally speaking, I play a 2 row in D/G, I cannot see a reason for me to go to full 3 row box. At most I would want an extra half row of a few accidentals and with D and E reversals to play the music I want to play. Yes, it is a pain in a session when the fiddle players start up tunes in 'weird' minor keys but that's just an opportunity to go to the bar/toilet/have a chat. Let's face it, who really needs a fully chromatic box anyway? How much music is written with 5 or 6 sharps or flats?

Perhaps, in the future, I may need to move to other keys (to accompany a singer perhaps). Do I dump the box and tunes I've learned for a new system or do I get a box in the right keys? Yes that does mean more weight to lug around but the fingering is the same for both boxes. Even John Kirkpatrick carries around various other boxes even if he mainly uses the BCC# box.

So, do I need a chromatic box. Certainly not at the moment. If I want to go chromatic would I choose a BCC# box? Well, as much as I love the push/pull of the melodeon I think I would veer towards a continental button accordion. Why?

1) I've seen plenty of CBA's for sale in shops and at festivals.

2) The apparent consistancy of the right hand fingering in the different keys.

3) I expect that I could get a CBA for a fair bit less than a BCC# box to learn on.

4) I would expect that if I didn't get on with it or wanted to upgrade to a better box the CBA would be easier to get rid of.

So BB. I now expect you to shoot me down in flames and explain why I should go to a BCC# box rather than a CBA!

T

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: Torctgyd
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 05:58 AM

PS. Don't flag in your efforts to, almost single handedly, get every box player onto the BCC# box!

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 07:29 AM

G'day buttonbox,

I've spent 40+ years fighting off suggestions that I should switch to the piano accordion because:

1/ It's more modern,

2/ It's chromatic and can play in every possible key,

3/ It has lots of 'jazzy' chords,

4/ It can play all sorts of different national styles.

Everyone proposing the virtues of the piano accordion just looks blank when I explain that I'm exploring the roots of a style of Australian music that was soundly based on the habits and limits of the popular button accordion ("bush accordion", as the salesman called my first one ... back in December 1963) ... and the Anglo-concertina ... and mouth organ - both of which I also play.

Having followed that course - and learned from it a lot about our musical roots and style - I find myself, in a modern world worshipping variety for its own sake, forced to play more and more on a variety of multi-row diatonic button accordions (a well-worn A/D/G ... a custom-made D/G/A - and, formerly, a G/C/F). I need these, not for style, but for the diverse key range sought by people whose 'classical' leaning pedispose them to a much wider key range. I often have to shake off the feeling I'm getting too far from authentic roots ... and I relax going back to my 2-row boxes (mainly my D/G Erica and my old (between the World Wars) "real" pokerwork (Hohner patterns burnt into blond wood) in G/C.

Anyway, getting back to buttonbox's BCC#s ... I do admire (if not aspire to) Jimmy Shand's mastery of this box - something he largely developed, as he moved from his button accordion beginnings. He learned to do anything possible on it in an orderly progression - as Hohner made boxes for him, with more range and bass.

However ... what does Jimmy Shand jnr play? Video I have seen of JS jnr, sems to be all piano accordion. Once you have set your mind to full chromaticism, it seems hard to justify grafting that onto the quite different diatonic button accordion ... and JS jnr's piano box ... or Torcgyd's Continental Chromatic seems to be the best path (if not for me!).

Arrrgh! I'll go back to my corner and get back to running both 3-row boxes through the 38 pages of additional music for this year's Heritage Ball ... in 6 or 7 different keys.

(An old "bush dance" copped a night full of bouncy, rhythmic, tunes ... all night ... in the key of the local melodion player's 1-row box ... and yelled for more!)

Regards,

Bob Bolton (unreconstructed push-puller)

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: buttonbox
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 07:54 AM

good to have some healthy debate! Yoou are quite right torctgyd the continental is totally logical, probably easier to find and possibly easier to sell, it is however really a very close relative of the piano accordion which some would argue that we should all be playing!
The British button box is quite definately a part of the push/pull melodeon family and as such would , perhaps if better understood, have more appeal to us mere melodion players. It could be that many DG players have been put off by the BC and its 2 row relatives which all have fairly useless bass when it comes to driving a rhythm. the bcc# with accordion bass gets round this problem completely.The other major turn off is the lack of any sort of tutor book (james hanrahans 'the box' bc tutor will just about get you started but not much else. Also there are not many people aro;;und who give tuition on the 3 row.
It is perhaps surprising how enthusiastic newcomers can become - at the moment I am teaching 2 people the 3 row and am attempting to write a tutor which will probably be printed in small batches as & when needed. One of the problems is the sort of myth surrounding the instrument bro;ught about to some degree to not being able to follow just what a player is doing by watching him. as against watching a piano accordion players who obviously goes up for up & down for down.

The main snag is that , like most i;nstru;;ments it needs to be properly learned ;& to do this in a reasonable time some sort of external input is helpful but not easy to find. To this end Jo;;hn Kirkpatrick & myself are trying to put together a list of players & those interested in taking up the system so that some mutual support can be given & perhaps the odd! gathering arranged. Anybody wishing to be included let me know by personal message.

Incidentally I also play a dg which is ideal for morris due to its light weight portability and rhythmic drive. the 3 row on the other hand is a fascinating experience & well worth the effort

cheers
bb

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 08:31 AM

As a keyboard guy - I would be happy if everybody wanted to just play in D & G (& A) - bloody guitarists want E! - I even prefer C cause it's just white notes!

Switching keys on a keyboard easily takes experience - the finger stretches are different for each key - one of the reasons for keyboard players to become proficient in all 36 scales! - and for a beginner the Stradella bass, while relatively easy to transpose - is a pain for the real beginner cause you expect the 'home buttons' - the ones with the indents - to be in certain places in the I IV V sequences... :-) hence Key of C is the 'home key' for Stradella Bass!

I met a lady Rene Buckle - long gone now - who was in her 70's and could literally do the 'hum a few bars' trick... :-) she was playing with my small P/A - and there was quite a difference in pitch - so she switched down a semitone to get closer - in the middle of a phrase... she had been a theatre pianist for decades...

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: GUEST,DicktheBox
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 08:55 AM

I have experimented over the years with various combinations of keys and number of rows. Like Bob, I tend to gravitate back to the comfort of a D/G which was where I started more years ago than I care to remember. I have tinkered with a C#/D/G but found the learning curve too steep to persevere with - I'd rather be playing than learning! The ideal for me would be a D/G/A with the A on the inside row and a tone up from the G. This would give it the lift when the fiddlers launch into A for the final tune of the set. However, all those I have come across have the A on the outside and low. Has anyone come across such a beast for sale commercially, or would I have to have one made up specially?

Richard Ashe

PS As I am a a loose end musically at the moment, if anyone knows a band needing a good, experienced melodeon player then please let me know.....

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: buttonbox
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 02:29 PM

a 3 row box in GDA as yu suggest should not be a problem to special order or the alterations could be done by any competant repairer/tuner. however GD&A (with the lift you want) or not difficult on a BCC# plus you get lots of other keys for free! Also the bcc# is not as 'clumsy'to handle as a similer size adg as there is less need for bellows reversals and even a choice between the smooth route and the jerky route to some extent

the original argument I put forward was that the bcc# is a better bet for those happy with a 3 row box than other combinations of diatonic keys plus accidentals

more views welcome!

bb

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: ConcertinaChap
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 05:24 PM

> hi chris
>what accidentals are you having on the inner row? are they
>yur choice or are you basing them on those on an anglo concertina ?
>is there a common layout for the accidentals on anglo

The full layout of the Anglodeon is here. The third row is, more or less, that of a Jeffries G/D anglo, while the bass is derived from that of an A/D/G melodeon. The reasoning behind it is as follows: about two years ago I had a mild stroke which left me with a left hand that worked, but was not as precise as it used to be. I'm a G/D anglo player in the English style, which means playing the melody mostly on the right hand, with accompaniment on the left. The stroke meant that I could no longer play chords on the left hand terribly well, but some experimenting showed that I had enough precision left to handle the bass buttons on a melodeon. I couldn't face learning a new instrument, so I asked Stormy if he could build something that would allow me to use the same fingering patterns that I know with the anglo in conjunction with a melodeon bass.

The beast arrives in May. Stormy, it seem as an anglo player himself, considers that the design is likely to be a go-er (his word) so when he ordered the reeds for it he ordered an additional 4 sets ready for future orders.

Chris

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 06:52 PM

For me, the main differences between the melodeon/button accordeon are these:

* melodeons are diatonic & those in D/G & G/C have the same fingering systems for playing.

* button accordeons are chromatic & those in B/C, B/C/C# have a differing fingering system of playing compared to melodeons.

I have a D/G melodeon & a B/C button accordeon.

To play a tune in D major on melodeon, the scale is arranged with bottom D on the push, whereas on button accordeon it's on the pull.

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:21 PM

G'day ConcertinaChap,

I take it you aren't dealing with Peter Hyde up close ... are you in Australia, or is the box coming by seamail?

Since Peter started off making (Anglo) concertinas, I presume Peter is a concertina player. The complex tooling needed to make concertinas from scratch was a battle for someone not in the trade and you have to get a technician to make ... all Peter's concertina tooling has ended up with Richard Evans and, with some adjustment, some of it is now making bits for Kookaburra Concertinas.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: buttonbox
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 03:27 AM

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: ConcertinaChap
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 08:39 AM

> I take it you aren't dealing with Peter Hyde up close ...
> are you in Australia, or is the box coming by seamail?

I'm in the UK. As you can imagine there has been a deal of email between us since this project started, in the course of which I started hosting Pete's web site for him, his old one having got very out of date.

> Since Peter started off making (Anglo) concertinas,
> I presume Peter is a concertina player. The complex
>tooling needed to make concertinas from scratch was a
> battle for someone not in the trade and you have to
> get a technician to make ...

Indeed so. Colin Dipper (who lives a few minutes from me and I believe is the greatest concertina maker in history) was originally trained as a toolmaker. Still this is somewhat wandering off-thread, so we'd better return things to the melodeon players ...

Chris

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:34 PM

The TMSA, Traditional Music And Song Assoccian of Scotland, run instrumental competitions at all their excellent festivals. In their rules a melodian has basses that are different notes when "pushing and pulling" and an accordion has basses which have the same note "pushing and pulling". I well rember a faimous upset when a winning melodianist was denounced as an accordionist.

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: buttonbox
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 05:01 AM

seems a reasonable way of diferentiating between the two - this makes the hohner trichord a possible for either catagory as some have 'melodeon' bass but th;e majority seem to have 12 accordion(stradella)bass. Just goes to show it all depends where you live!

as regards guest mr happy's comments re the chromatic pussh pull boxes requiring different fingering to a true diatonic (eg DG) this is of course only true when playing on the row. as soon as keys other than t;he 'home 'keys are attempted, either with extra accidentals or by faking them the whole fingering & bellows control system changes and it is at htis point that theBCC#' starts to show advantages! many may feel differently about this but have they honestly given th;e BCC# a fair trial!

don't ;just readd this - share your views with; the rest of us

cheers
bb

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: GUEST,Alex 2007BC
Date: 28 May 07 - 08:43 AM

THis thread has been quiet for a while..... however I'm trying to research BCC# because I want one.

I play BC and a bit of piano accordion so the transition would be very quick. However, I'd really like a compact (ish) box a 48 bass should suffice. 12 x 4. Theres a lot you can do with that. It would be nice to have a dry tuned Irish style box. (what?!) Castagnari, Beltuna, Saltarelle style...   I heard a rumour on a forum that someone has one based on a Benny. ? Is this you? Do you like it?

Hobgoblin have ordered a couple of these on special order for customers, I think. i may look to Beltuna as I really like their new diatonics plus they've been making PA's for years so the Strad Bass shouldn't be a problem..... hmmm

let me know if you have had similar thoughts about BCC#

all the best
alex

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: GUEST,george garside
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:02 AM

The smallest readily available (2nd hand of course) BCC# is the 12 bass hohner trichord which is very similar to look at to the HOhner Corona & was available in 2 or 3 voice versions with very little difference in weight & none in size. Theo Gibb trading as The BOx Place in Gateshead sometimes has one or two available & will rebuild/tune to customers requirements. The next smallest ,as far as I am aware, is the 48 bass Casali which is tuned 3 voice musette . The bass are 12x4 which gives scope for more keys than the common stradella arrangement of 6x8. I have one of these & would not part with it for any amount of money! The next jump in size is probably to 80 bass.

I have tried a BCC# Benny a few years ago & the treble end was brilliant but it hadd the standard 'melodeon' i.e. push/pull bass which defeated the whole object of having a chromatic box. If there is room for 12 bass yu could have them tuned to the stradella system like most hohner trichords (a few had melodeon bass) Another idea which I understand Fergie MacDonald has on his 2 row is to have major chords only , I don't know which he has but on a 12 bass very small box you could have major chords enough to provide a bit of harmony & rhythm from A flat up to E.

ONe of the big advantages of the BCC# over the BC is that if you learn to play it first as a BC i.e. on 2 rows you can then , using the CC# rows play in the flat keys using the same fingering e.g. BC rows G fingering = A flat on the CC# rows etc etc.

just remembered Serenellini have recently made a small ?60 bass for a Shand Morino player wanting something lighter so may be worth talking to. (I have a serenellini DG salterello which I am very happy with0

hope this is of some help to somebody somewhere
george

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: buttonbox
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 04:58 PM

Steve Clinkscale music apparently has some brand new 48 bass (12x4) BCC# Crucianelli boxes. Picture on his website. Same size as Casali but dont' know if 2 or 3 voice. Would be interested to hear from anybody who has tried one.

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: GUEST,Aoliandorian
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 08:37 AM

Hi Buttonbox and others. Very interesting discussion and I would like to make a few points if I may.
MELODEON = Treble notes are different on the pull and push ie. Push G, Pull A.
ACCORDION is the same note, push or pull.
Therefore an Irish B/C/(C#) is actually a chromatic melodeon and a D/G is a diatonic melodeon. However, I don't think anyone will ever convince the Irish to change nomenclature.
Continental Chromatics have the same note in or out and are therefore accordions. This is regardless of number of basses. Piano accordions obviously have the same note in or out.
The Jimmy Shand box was a Hohner Gaelic Ø B/C/C# Chromatic melodeon with a 72 Stradella bass and I have one for sale.
I use a 2 1/2 row Castagnari Mori and use the 1/2 row for accidentals used in some tunes (Jump to the Sun, Horses Branle etc) and have some notes the same as the G and D rows but with the push or pull reversed. This means I can play these notes without having to stop playing the bass when playing a run and make the tune flow better.

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 08:52 AM

Aoliandorian:
Erm, are you quite sure? I'm pretty certain that most of the rest of the world call it an "accordion", not just the Irish. To my limited knowledge it's only the englesh who call it a melodeon. I can't buy a melodeon from Saltarelle - they sell diatonic accordions (or accordeons diatoniques). The renowned Hohner pokerwork is a Vienna accordion. Etc. etc. ad nauseum.
The (pointless) controversy will no doubt continue but I think you're pretty far off with melodeon = different push & pull; accordion = same note push & pull.
Martin

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:23 PM

Aoliandorian

I agree with Martin that the term Melodeon is   mainly used in England for 2 or 3 row button accordions. The irish reserve the term for the one row instrument. Cajun people call the one row an accordeon and at the end of the day accordion is more or less the generic term   used worldwide with sometimes an additional informative description such as continental chromatic, piano, diatonique, british chromatic etc.

Jimmy Shand owned & played several boxes ranging upwards from a C#D Hohner Erica. (a black one). His early recordings (1933 on) were made on a 2 row BC hohner organola 36 bass and around 1937/8 he designed ,along with louis morino, hohners chief designer, the Shand Special which was a hand made 40 button BCC# with 105 Bass & of course morino reeds. After the war this was developed into the famous Shand Morino with 5 treble couplers, still 40 button & 105 bass. It was subsequently enlarged to 46 treble and 117 bass (not 120 as many people suppose.)

To the best of my knowledge he did not own a hohner gaelic, which was in esence a poor mans Shand Morino. I have however seen a photo of him playing one owned by a neighbour!)

Incidentally the Hohner Gaelic has 96 bass not 72 ( I have owned 2 of them). The Gaelic is a very nice easy box to play & I have always presumed , rightly or wrongly, that Sir Jimmy had some input into its design.

george

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: GUEST,george garside
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:24 PM

sorry, that last posting was from me, forgot to enter my name!
george

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: Ollie and Ellie
Date: 07 Nov 12 - 07:21 PM

I'm about to go down the D/G/Acc route having spent a lot of time playing D/G and A/D/G. I'm just after a bit more flexibility. The trouble I'm having is deciding the finer details about the layout, in particular with regards the accidental row. Does anyone have any (sensible) suggestions?

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 08 Nov 12 - 02:11 AM

I have seen d/g/g#. It might be worth investigating.

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: ripov
Date: 08 Nov 12 - 07:45 PM

As a fiddler, I'm totally out of my depth here, so perhaps someone will put me right. I've always understood that the virtue of melodeons was that were not fully chromatic, and so could be tuned in meantone temperaments, and so sound much sweeter than accordians, which are tuned in ET.

Subject: RE: melodeon with 2 rows of accidentals!
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 09 Nov 12 - 03:26 AM

The virtue is that they are easy to learn and provide melody, harmony and rhythm in one samll package. The tuning is a benefit that is not always taken advantage of (if you think it an advantage). Many people still prefer the fat sound of a musette or gaelic tuned instrument to the more fashionable sweeter swing and close tunings.