BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?

Subject: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:47 PM

I just now heard one of the best distillations of the Ten Commandments on Public Property Issue. It was by Rev. Ian Wrisley of Crested Butte, Colorado, a self-described Evangelical Minister who comments on NPR. Just now he spoke eloquently on the issue of government sponsored presentations of the Ten Commandments. I cannot relay word for word his comments, but I thought they were spot on: That what is being proposed, however well intentioned, is to put religious themes at the service of the State for State purposes. This is a pretty good definition of blasphemy.

What the gentleman said served me in three ways...It was a very well written and delivered piece in itself, it spoke eloquently to the issue, and it reminded me of something I already knew, there are some very fine thinkers among the Evangelical population of the US. It will show up on npr.org as an audio file and I hope to give it a re-listen.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 04:57 PM

congress shall make no law prohibiting the free practice thereof

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 05:08 PM

One nation under God.

Except for the far left liberal element, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 05:17 PM

The one here in Texas was actually installed when CB DeMille's movie " The 10 Commandments " was released. So it was a commercial. Not really an outpouring of religious sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 05:28 PM

Yes, that would be the far-left liberal element who wrote the constitution and who did not, coincidentally, write any "pledge of allegiance" to any flag containing the words Martin Gibson glibly regurgitates.

(a bit of history, Martin: the words Under God were actually added to the pledge through a campaign by the Knights of Columbus in 1954. The original pledge would have included the word liberty, but educators were reluctant to have their students espouse equality for women and blacks.   So the pledge is at once aggressively Christian and embarrassingly reminiscent of Jim Crow.

Anyway, to conservative Jewish ears the "pledge" verges on idolatry. How can you pledge allegiance to a flag of all things? many people who are not at all left-wing liberals (like Amish, Menonites, and other very conservative religious groups) do not recite the "pledge."

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 05:30 PM

Now I ain't gonna get into no Bible thumpin' here but, hey, what exactly wrong with the Ten Commandments? Heck, I think they oughta have 'um on the back of buses. If everyone followed these ten simple rules of behavior you could throw the millions of pages of laws out the window...

BUT, with that said... I'd like to see passages other holy books of other relgions as well on stone and on the back of buses...

Morality is not something that we as Christains can say we have the market captured. Quite the opposite, with way to many of my fellow Christains not following the teachings of Jesus Christ...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 05:34 PM

I have seen old films of swearing in of witnesses in court which did NOT include the caveat, "so help you god." Anyone know when and why that was added and, if it is still in use?

Separation of church and state is my religion...

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 05:46 PM

Wesley: I also heard that about the installation of "10 Commandments" monuments as a publicity stunt. I'm wondering if it is a myth because:

1) Hollywood producers are not known for spending a lot of dough they don't need to (i.e. not one thin dime), and stone monuments couldn't have been very cheap.

2) In Hollywood, they don't have 10 Commandments. They've been reduced to 8, and 3 of those are "Do the best you can!"

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 05:53 PM

My understanding was that DeMille sent Chuck Heston and Edgar G Robinson to many of the installations as part of a publicity campain. I'll try to get some facts and references since I don't want to rely on my memory.

How about the Sermon on the Mount ? Can you imagine "blessed are the peacemakers" printed on the wall of the Pentagon ?

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Piers
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 05:54 PM

As Karl Marx said, 'The executive of the modern state is but a commitee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie'. And oh how the bourgeosie (capitalists) benefit from the source of their income having their heads full of ancient moral dogmas and superstitions that reinforce the class system.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 06:05 PM

Guest, of course I knew about the 1954 change. so what?

It's been well accepted for the last 50 years except for a handful of aetheists.

In God we trust.

What's your fat ass answer on that?

Piers, who gives a shit what Karl Marx said about anything except some Commie like yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 06:05 PM

Hmmm.....

"Thou shalt not kill" is an ancient moral dogma and superstition ? I think not. I'd just rather not have it printed on my public buildings that I help pay for with my tax dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Scoville
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 06:13 PM

And some very liberal religious groups decline to say the Pledge for conservative reasons. Many [otherwise decidedly leftist] Quakers do not because traditionally they frown upon pledging allegiance to something that might conflict with their allegiance to God above all others.

I'm not at all religious but I don't have anything against the Ten Commandments themselves, only their form. I would similarly oppose having text from Faith & Practice hung in courtrooms and schools, not because I have anything against it for its own sake, but because not everyone is Quaker and not everyone should be expected to play by Quaker rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 06:22 PM

Actually, I 'd like to see "Thou Shalt Not Kill" in every governmental office in the land, including the oval office an in every office and restroom in the Pentagon.... And on the back of every danged bus in the world in what ever laguage is common to those areas... Yeah, I'd like to see it printed on McDonld's wrappers and I like to see it on little crome emblems on the back of every new car. Heck, I'd like to see it printed on every sheet of toilet paper, every knapkin, every paper towel and box of bullets....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Piers
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 06:26 PM

Martin Gibson unfortunately many, many, many more people give a shit about what Marx said well after his death than would give you the steam off their piss whilst you are alive.

Wesley - Even 'thou shalt not kill' is a moral dogma, there are situations when you may have to kill or be killed, or kill to prevent more killing. And it's not as if pacifism and christianity go hand in hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: John O'L
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 06:56 PM

Piers -
We all know that life depends on other things dying. We all know what the intention of the commandment is: Thou shalt not kill unnecesarily - thou shalt not murder. ]

The place is full of murderers, some of them filling the most powerful positions in the world. I think Bobert's idea of having it written everywhere you look is a brilliant one.

Thou shalt not kill.

Don't forget it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 07:13 PM

Okay, they repeated the commentary and it still sounds good to me the second time around, some excerpted remarks:
- - - - - - - - - - -
Ian Wrisley:
Doroty Sayers called it a great mistake to present Christianity as something charming and popular.
The argument for posting them on public property is that the Commandments belong there because they are not religious but cultural, legal, historical. This is a copout, it might keep God in the picture as instrument of history but not as Lord of history. More is lost to the religious concept than can possibly be gained.
Government can't be trusted with metaphysics. When in school, my principal recited Lord's Prayer every day. This was simply a power play on his part, a way of exercising his authority.

Governemt is not giving legitimacy to religion, they are using religion to buttress their own legitimacy.

It was the religious devout in this country that obtained from Thomas Jefferson the promise of a wall between church and state.

Definitioin of blasphemy is to make secular that which is sacred. Posting Ten Commanments on gov. property is a case study in blasphemy.
- - - - - - - end of remarks by Minister Wriskey

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 07:49 PM

I saw the thread title and was thinking it was ten commandments ON public property, ie on the subject of, not located on. Rather a diffrent idea...

Seperation of Church and State is a good idea, and should be stuck to.

Bunnhabhain.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 07:58 PM

"And ye harm none" works as well...

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:31 PM

Piers, What you say is probably true about Karl Marx.................................in China. Not in the U.S. In case you hadn't noticed, the only Marx who has had some impact here is Groucho. And thank God. Karl Marx preached for a Godless soul. Is that you? Fine with me. Except please stay out of my neighborhood.

Which 10 Commandments do you non-believers have a problem with?

Wesley S., what's wrong with it on a building we pay taxes for? Isn't it more about humanity than religion overall? Aren't the 10 Commandments something all humanity can live by? Isn't that why they were given to the world?

I'd rather see them on a government building instead of a sign that says "closed Saturday and Sunday."

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:44 PM

Danged! I hate it when I agree with Martin....

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr....

But, yeah, I would take a the few steps further and have the messages of peace form the books of other religions also be prominently displayed... This way, there's no one thinkin' that anyone is tryin' to tam something down his or her throats... Yeah, a little Koran and a little....

See, the religions that I know of teach peace and love... Hey we need more of that...

Yeah, lets plaster the walls with pro-life scriptures... Put 'um on the back of busses... Heck, put 'em on cerial boxes...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:52 PM

How about:

"You will have no God except me."

Which is fine, so long as there is no other religion in the US...

Not all of them are as common as "Thou shall not kill" with those with diffrent beliefs, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:58 PM

Forget the Koran, bobert. Put that on the back of a bus and it will probably blow up.

What would you rather have, pro-death scriptures?

The majority of this country is judeo-Christian. Peace and love, yeah ideally.

No one is saying you have to read anything, bobert. No one is saying you have to believe the 10 Commandments either as being to Jewish, too Christian.. Shit, lie if you want, steal if you want, kill if you want, covet your neighbor's wife with big tits if you want. I don't see any of that as necessarily being about religion. Sounds like just good laws to me. We'll leave you alone to be your politically correct offended self.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:21 PM

Now I ain't gonna get into no Bible thumpin' here but, hey, what exactly wrong with the Ten Commandments? Heck, I think they oughta have 'um on the back of buses. If everyone followed these ten simple rules of behavior you could throw the millions of pages of laws out the window...

There is at least one commandment that applies only to the monotheistic religions. The "no gods before me" commandment. So by endorsing these commandments and not giving equal consideration to the many religions in the world (and in the US) that are not monotheistic, the US government shows bias against the religions that are not monotheistic. And that is institutionalized discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:24 PM

You obviously know nuthin' of the Koran, Martin... Or the Bible... Or yer Jewishness....

All you know is how to be offensive...

Great...

Okay, big guy, what laws, commandements, suggestions, etc. do you think are good?

Thou shalt insult yer fellow man?

Thou shalt reaffirm that you are a jerk on a daily basis?

Well, Martin, you seen to have them bases covered purdy well here...

Get a real life that doesn't beg the real world into Martin's world to watch Martin masterbate... Yeah, that's all it is... Nuthin' more and nuthin' less...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:29 PM

So you also think we should give equal consideration to "the great god Calu," people who believe that cats are gods, people who pray to golden calves, and statues of of multi-bodied animals?

I love living in America just the way it is. Take your bullshit political correctness and shove it, CarolC. No wonder you are an outcast from society. We let people believe anything they want. No one is not telling them to. The many religions of the world are a minority here aznd don't add up to squat.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:34 PM

Oops. Sorry Bunnahabhain. I somehow missed your post.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:37 PM

[bleep] (for antisocial behavior)You also somehow missed out on brains and a good odor.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:44 PM

*Anybody have a problem with photography, sculpture, painting, sketching and drawing? Maybe we should abolish all art.
*Anybody here curse or swear?
* How do you honor the Sabbath?
* Anybody covet his neighbor's ass?

"The 10 Commandments are found in the Bible's Old Testament at Exodus, Chapter 20. The tradition is that they were given directly by God to the people of Israel at Mount Sinai after He had delivered them from slavery in Egypt:


"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's.'

Where I Got It

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:48 PM

So you also think we should give equal consideration to "the great god Calu," people who believe that cats are gods, people who pray to golden calves, and statues of of multi-bodied animals?

Yes, Martin. The US government is constrained by the US Constitution to not enforce any specific religions. That is the same constitution that protects your right to practice your own religion as you see fit. People who worship cats have the same exact rights under the constitution as you do, whether you like it or not. I don't think, on the subject of religion, you want to be pushing for majority rule in the US. That was tried before, and members of your own religion bore a lot of the brunt of that discrimination.

When I was in the sixth grade, one of the teachers at my school was a very ignorant and also very intolerant woman. When the school held a picnic for the crossing guards and some of the students said they could only have kosher hot dogs and hamburgers at the picnic, that teacher said, "Why do you need special treatment? Why can't you just be like everybody else?"

It was wrong for that teacher to do it, and it's wrong for the US government to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:24 PM

robomatic,

That's pretty much as I see the issue. If it's as part of a "general history of law" presentation -- as it might be as part of a piece of public art that includes things like a representation of the Code of Hamurabi, etc. then I wouldn't be against it. In that context it's just acknowledging, generally, the development of western law.

But as a manifestation of a "Christian nation" I'm firmly against it, and I think that, as the fellow you paraphrased said, it profanes the ten commandments -- presenting them as some sort of talsiman rather than what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CStrong
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:30 PM

>>And thank God. Karl Marx preached for a Godless soul. Is that you? Fine with me. Except please stay out of my neighborhood.<<

And what makes it YOUR neighborhood? Aren't there other people in it?

Oh. Guess not.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:33 PM

"Isn't it more about humanity than religion overall?" --- No...not to those who are pushing one particular brand of religion.

"Aren't the 10 Commandments something all humanity can live by?" Maybe...maybe not, but that particular formulation of rules is expressly connected to one particular religious tradition, and primarily is used to promote and support that tradition!

"Isn't that why they were given to the world?" -- They weren't...they were discovered in some old manuscripts....We don't know who wrote them. If you think they are good rules, and they are certainly not BAD rules, then live your life by them, and other good rules not precisely covered. But don't USE that set as if you can prove they are divinely inspired. Admire them, refer to them, enlarge on them...but don't cram them down people's throats.

"In God We Trust" --What about those who don't, and are still good people? Why can't we honor our country and swear to protect it without reference to religious background?


The right to religious freedom must be protected....people should be able to worship freely IN THEIR CHURCHES, but in this country Freedom OF Religion must include freedom FROM religion for those who wish it.

If most of the country were atheist, and you and 12 friends were the only Christians...or Jews...around, your right to worship and practice of your religion should never be infringed....and the reverse is true. If there were only 3 atheists in the country, there should STILL be no religious message in state and public documents or practices.

Fairness and freedom should never be a matter of majority vote or luck or trickery or state mandate. Certain personal choices should always be both freely chosen and not subject to the whims of the current power structure.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CStrong
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:36 PM

Bill
Amen. So to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:41 PM

Yes, Cstrong, plenty of other people in my neighborhood. People with families, people who go to church., not many commies like you, thank God.

Perhaps you would be right at home in China.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CStrong
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:56 PM

Martin

1. Show me where it says I'm a commie.
2. Show me where it says I don't go to church.
3. Show me where it says I don't have a family.

Wrong on all three counts. I also vote in every election, give heavily to charity, and am gleefully faithful to my wife. And my mother has never worn Army shoes. (He won't get that one, folks.)

Although I will fit to the death--well, up to the point of personal discomfort--for your right to argue, you ought to know something: you don't do it well. You fire off your first salvo and respond to rebuttals with vulgarisms. Rhetoric, Martin. Logic. Reason.

Fake it if you have to.

Let me frame your response for you: I'm just an ignorant Commie shitball with a sexual attraction to goats who wear strap-ons.

Nighty-night.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 11:08 PM

*grin*...saves 'ol Martin some typing

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 11:11 PM

Ahhhhh, CStrong, no reason to ask Martin fir any facts.... He has repeatedly said that he doesn't involve himself with, ahhh, facts. He's way too busy trying to impress himself on just how rude he can be.... Most of the time I jsut ignore him as he has allready trivialized his own self.... He's kinda like a troller... Always lookin' fir someone who actually gives a flyin' crap about whatever crap he has just said...

Like who cares??? He's like Intellegent Life Lite...

Just enjoy him as entertainment and you'll be fine... Okay, if you wanta fire a shot at him now and then, it's okay....

But he ain't worth gettin' all hot and bothered over...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: frogprince
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 11:13 PM

Hey, Bill D.: Another amen, from a Christian, for what ya just said.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: frogprince
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 11:17 PM

Oh, yeah: one more "amen", for your last contribution, Carol C.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 11:22 PM

As a fellow Jew, one of the main thing I disagree with Martin on is support for things like this. Right now, at this particular moment, conservative Christian elements generally support Jewish people's rights.    And most Christian people in this country are genuinely tolerant of other religions. BUT there is a sizable minority of Christians who think that Martin and I are no better than Satanists, and THEY ARE THE ONES PUSHING FOR THIS. They support Jews now, because it is politically expediant. But their goal is to turn this into an officially Christian country, and as soon as it is feasible they will not hesitate to destroy Judaism and whatever other religion gets in their way. Right now, they don't have to, because they can get numbnuts Jews to support them with "They're YOUR commandments too!" But after Islam and Buddhism are excluded from public life, WE'RE NEXT. It will be prayers to Jesus at every Government- sponsored event. And Martin's children or grandchildren will have to say:

"I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag of the Christian States of America, and to the Government for which it stands, one Nation, under Jesus Christ, with Liberty and Justice for all Christians."

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 11:59 PM

Thank you, Ebbie, for a more correct translation of the 6th commandment.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Piers
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 03:33 AM

Martin Gibson there are certainly more Marxists in the USA than people who give a monkeys about what you say. Owing to th eoppressive state regime there are probably more Marxists in the USA than China too.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST,jeffp
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 11:22 AM

Bill and Carol essentially summed it up for me. I'm a Christian, but I don't believe I have any right to shove it down anybody's throat. I don't believe the government has a right to either. In fact, they have a duty not to.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 11:56 AM

frogprince and jeffp--if more Christians had your attitude, we would all get along better. Thanks for the reasonable outlook.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 12:43 PM

Well your constitution may prevent the government from favouring a particular religion. It doesn't stop them using one to garner votes under false pretences does it?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST,Bill D
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 01:01 PM

indeed not, Giok...I'm not sure anything can prevent subterfuge and hidden agendas. But having that clause IN our constitution gives some leverage to approach the most egregious attempts to officially favor one religion.

copyright laws don't prevent someone from changing YOUR tune and words a bit and trying to pass it off as their own, but they slow down wholesale theft.....we gotta have something.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 02:12 PM

Does the wholesale theft of votes come under that heading Bill D?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST,Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 02:12 PM

So how does this tie in with the news that a death sentence handed down by a court in Colorado has been overturned because some of the jurors referred to the Bible during their deliberations?
Denver Post

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST,jeffp
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 02:20 PM

The rules on juries forbid the consultation of any outside sources in the jury room. This was held to exclude bibles as it would any other source. If it had been the Talmud, the Koran, or any secular commentary on law and punishment, the result would have been the same.