Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: You will believe anything if you believe

GUEST 29 Mar 05 - 08:45 PM
GUEST,Peter Woodruff 29 Mar 05 - 08:49 PM
Little Hawk 29 Mar 05 - 09:00 PM
Once Famous 29 Mar 05 - 09:07 PM
GUEST 29 Mar 05 - 09:49 PM
jacqui.c 29 Mar 05 - 10:18 PM
GUEST,Liberty 29 Mar 05 - 10:43 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 29 Mar 05 - 10:45 PM
Once Famous 29 Mar 05 - 10:49 PM
Fibula Mattock 30 Mar 05 - 08:31 AM
GUEST 30 Mar 05 - 08:36 AM
George Papavgeris 30 Mar 05 - 08:43 AM
John O'L 30 Mar 05 - 08:44 AM
GUEST 30 Mar 05 - 08:49 AM
John O'L 30 Mar 05 - 08:57 AM
Little Hawk 30 Mar 05 - 09:49 AM
Dave Hanson 30 Mar 05 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,rr 30 Mar 05 - 10:34 AM
GUEST 30 Mar 05 - 10:44 AM
GUEST,jacqui.c 30 Mar 05 - 02:12 PM
GUEST 30 Mar 05 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,gnu 30 Mar 05 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,El Greko 30 Mar 05 - 03:19 PM
GUEST,Amos 30 Mar 05 - 03:50 PM
kendall 30 Mar 05 - 04:33 PM
Tannywheeler 30 Mar 05 - 04:45 PM
Little Hawk 30 Mar 05 - 05:06 PM
GUEST 30 Mar 05 - 05:17 PM
Tannywheeler 30 Mar 05 - 05:46 PM
GUEST 30 Mar 05 - 05:47 PM
Once Famous 30 Mar 05 - 05:55 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 30 Mar 05 - 06:18 PM
John O'L 30 Mar 05 - 06:38 PM
frogprince 30 Mar 05 - 06:41 PM
John O'L 30 Mar 05 - 06:55 PM
Tannywheeler 30 Mar 05 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 30 Mar 05 - 07:09 PM
Little Hawk 30 Mar 05 - 07:11 PM
John O'L 30 Mar 05 - 07:29 PM
John O'L 30 Mar 05 - 07:36 PM
Little Hawk 30 Mar 05 - 07:40 PM
John O'L 30 Mar 05 - 08:23 PM
Little Hawk 30 Mar 05 - 08:32 PM
GUEST,Python Harry 30 Mar 05 - 08:39 PM
Gurney 31 Mar 05 - 04:10 AM
GUEST 31 Mar 05 - 07:08 AM
Amos 31 Mar 05 - 08:52 AM
Little Hawk 31 Mar 05 - 09:14 AM
Donuel 31 Mar 05 - 10:25 AM
Amos 31 Mar 05 - 10:34 AM
GUEST 31 Mar 05 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 31 Mar 05 - 09:49 PM
Little Hawk 31 Mar 05 - 11:11 PM
mandoleer 01 Apr 05 - 06:46 PM
Gray D 01 Apr 05 - 06:51 PM
Gray D 01 Apr 05 - 06:54 PM
Little Hawk 01 Apr 05 - 07:18 PM
Gray D 01 Apr 05 - 07:36 PM
Little Hawk 01 Apr 05 - 07:37 PM
GUEST 02 Apr 05 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River 02 Apr 05 - 11:32 AM
dianavan 02 Apr 05 - 10:44 PM
Little Hawk 02 Apr 05 - 11:07 PM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:45 PM

You will believe anything if you want to believe that: The world is flat. The beer is flat. The pope is fat. Terri Schiavo is well and living in Cancun unbnounced to the rest of us. If you want to believe in anything, believe in me! Heard that before somewhere in sundayschool. You will believe anything if you believe.

Peter


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:49 PM

I wrote this thread and I am not just a guest!

wdyat12


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:00 PM

True enough. Belief is a very powerful thing. Accordingly, best to have beliefs that are basically nonviolent and harmonious, I should think.

As for believing the World is flat, well, that's not really a problem until you get around to doing long distance navigation with ships and airplanes, and that sort of thing. Then it becomes a problem.

Which is a more useful way to be in life...right or happy? :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:07 PM

I have found that I am extremely happy because I know that I am right. Not always. No one is. But common sense and life experiences prevail as well as a good education. I hear it so often, "ya know, you were right."

Believe anything you want. In the long run, no one really cares. The more you stress your beliefs in the outlandish and absurd, the more you will rightfully be believed to be an idiot.

Then they will lock you up, call you crazy, and we will be on our merry   way.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:49 PM

Any belief that is not based on evidence is silly.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:18 PM

Belief not based on evidence is usually called faith.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST,Liberty
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:43 PM

No no no. Martin Gibson is always right.
Everything he thinks is always true.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:45 PM

Occam's Razor works most of the time. The explanations for most observed phenomena are a lot simpler if the world is round, if the Universe is expanding, and if higher life-forms evolve from lower ones. The observed phenomena can be explained within systems that believe the world is flat, the Universe is static, and that fossils have been planted in the earth as practical jokes, but it's messy. Why bother with trying to force a square peg into a round hole when there's a perfectly good square hole available?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:49 PM

Guest, Liberty

Well actually, pretty much so.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:31 AM

"reality is that which, when you ignore it, does not go away."
(thank you, Mr Philip K. Dick)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:36 AM

"Belief not based on evidence is usually called faith."

And this is a lame cliche that gets trotted out whenever reason trumps faith, like in the Schiavo case.

Anyone here believe Terri Schiavo has a viable brain? And if you do believe that, you probably also believe she is talking to her parents.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:43 AM

No, GUEST, it's not a cliche, it's what faith is actually defined as.
It can be misplaced, sure.
But faith has moved more mountains than knowledge ever did. Misplaced or not, it has very real power.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: John O'L
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:44 AM

"Any belief that is not based on evidence is silly."

Then you believe that hummingbirds can't fly?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:49 AM

Religious faith is intolerant of any beliefs, facts, truths that contradicts it's man-made doctrines and dogma.

Which is how Dubya got elected. By manipulating believers into thinking that faith should be at the front, center, and top of our body politic in the US, a nation founded on the democratic ideal of separation of church and state. For good reason. The reason being the fascist takeover of our national life by "the faithful" fanatics and demagogues of corporate Christianity.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: John O'L
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:57 AM

oh


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:49 AM

There are some things for which no empirical evidence is...or may ever be...available. :-) And they are among life's most fascinating subjects. They are mostly things which are experienced subjectively, rather than objectively. You experience them within, as an awareness, rather than outside as a phenomenon.

As for outer phenomena, people believe whatever they are inclined to believe about them, I've noticed. And what they are inclined to believe is mostly a matter of their cultural assumptions about the matter.

But for the beancounters among us...YES! It's important when counting beans to make sure you count ALL the beans...otherwise you will arrive at an incorrect sum. D'oh!

Faith, belief, and keen observation of facts and evidence are all important and valuable...when they start conflicting with one another, you've got a problem.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:50 AM

Which mountains did faith move then el grecko ?

eric


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST,rr
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 10:34 AM

Each mental act is a reality for which we are responsible. We create our own reality.
Rustic


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 10:44 AM

Just because "the faithful" believe Terri Schiavo's eyes are bleeding doesn't make it so.

Except in the legislative and executive branches of the US government, and on CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST,jacqui.c
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 02:12 PM

My previous statement was purely a comment on faith - not on any of the suppositions put forward in the opening thread.

1. From the little I know of the Schiavo case I doubt that there is any chance of recovery and it is clear that her attending physicians are of this opinion, otherwise would they allow the tubes to be removed? This subject is being addressed on a number of other threads.

2. I don't believe the earth is flat and didn't before the photos came in from space.

3. Flat beer tastes lousy.

4. Who can tell whether the Pope is fat under all those robes?

5. 'Believe in me'? I do not follow the Christian faith and so this statement means nothing to me and yes, I did go to Sunday school as a child.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 03:08 PM

I am a Frisbyterian. I believe that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and you can't get it down.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST,gnu
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 03:11 PM

I am beginning to believe that I should change my name to shitforbrainsgnu. I forgot to sign in at the back door again... and again... and again. That was me at 03:08 PM.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST,El Greko
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 03:19 PM

I was speaking figuratively, Eric; though I know of one mother that lifted a car single-handed to free her child's leg that had been caught under a wheel. And of firewalkers who walk slowly over hot coals without sustaining a burn or even a mark.

Faith often overcomes inhibitors such as fear of pain or death, or belief in the inevitability of laws of physics, and allows people to perform feats that would otherwise have been impossible.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 03:50 PM

If you're gonna talk aboutbelief it is really really important to distinction between the various grades and kinds. An intellectual belief is merely a piece in a mental puzzle about existence. Religous "beleifs" are sometimes only intellectual. Then there are the "solution" beliefs which carry a lot of emotion or pain behind them and are elected as a solution to ward those waves of experience off because they are considered to be unsupportable. Such beliefs have a lot more energy to them, but it is borrowed energy originating in the resistance to unwanted experience. Religious beliefs often are of this sort also -- they fend off great confusions about one's own nature by electing a ward to keep the hole question at bat without actually ever facing up to it in the first place. Often these are also "invisible" beliefs, in that they operate below the threshold of conscious inspection.

The most important sort are the deep beliefs which define the framework of experience, which are the postulated "pragma" or defining boundaries of what we see and know and experience in the universe. These beliefs are the ones that generate the patterns of normal experience. They include beliefs in existence itself, beliefs about being someone and having a past, structures that qualify the meaning of perception and beliefs about what is possible to see, have, know or do in the universe. Those are the ones you want to wrassle.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: kendall
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 04:33 PM

Reality is an illusion brought on by the lack of booze.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 04:45 PM

God Bless Kendall for steering us straight. We'll all, I'm sure, do our darnedest to keep this particular illusion at bay -- right troops?
John O'L., I thought it was honeybees that -- if you write out the math, geometry, engineering -- couldn't fly. Since they've never done high school math they keep on motivatin' through the air like they invented the system.                Tw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 05:06 PM

Oh, it's an illusion all right... :-) But as illusions go, it's one of the most convincing. Booze or no booze.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 05:17 PM

Ah, it's been pretty well documented that those people who lift cars on their children in emergencies aren't doing it because of "faith".
It's that adrenalin fight or flight thing.

I also wouldn't buy the firewalker thing. I know there is scientific documentation of meditative states allowing people to alter heartbeat, respiration, etc. that is related to healing and stuff. But I really think you are grasping at straws with the "faith as cause" thing here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 05:46 PM

Got it, Guest. Something happens -- but it's probably physiological, not "faith" or "miracles". It works, but it isn't happening. Right.
No wonder you're not identified.             Tw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 05:47 PM

And what religion do you profess faith in Tannywheeler?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 05:55 PM

[bleep] (for gratuitous vulgarity) Why do narrow minded people use extra wide tampons?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 06:18 PM

The empirical evidence that hummingbirds (and bumblebees) can fly is verifiable by anyone who looks. The claim that they can't fly is based instead on a limited theoretical model of what flight "should" be like.

In other words, an outmoded theory based on prior belief and without regard for contrary evidence. Sound familiar?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: John O'L
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 06:38 PM

Which brings us back to the other thread on - What was it? Pick one. There have been several.

At one time everybody thought the earth was flat because from all of the available data it seemed to be flat.
So until new data became available and it seemed to be round, was it really flat or not?

According to all the data we have today, it seems round. Next week there may be data suggesting that it seems flat, so what shape is it? Today, I mean.

Or what shape do you believe it to be?

It may have been some kind of bee, but I was pretty confident about the hummingbirds...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 06:41 PM

It's kinda round, but pretty lumpy; you wouldn't want to play baseball or tennis with a ball shaped like that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: John O'L
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 06:55 PM

Ta.

Just wondering.

What about lawn bowls?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 07:08 PM

Uniden. Guest, I'm Protestant Episcopal, 'cause that was the name of my grandmother's church.
There is only one God. Jesus came to teach us about It. We are all part of It.
Was it in "Alice In Wonderland" or "Through The Looking-Glass" someone says something about trying to believe 6 impossible things before breakfast?
Two microscopic blobs of jelly get stuck together. Nine months later a new human being is born. Fingers, toes, bellybutton, voice, eyes, ears -- how can anyone deny miracles? Each one of us is one.
We put shit in our yard (pardon me, composted cow manure) and get incredible roses and green beans. The earth takes in trash and waste and gives back beauty, food, oxygen -- our minds may search out the technical process, but that doesn't negate the FACT of the miraculous.                                 Tw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 07:09 PM

One thing about scientific discoveries is that they don't go backwards. So we won't be discovering that the earth is "really" flat. If it isn't really round, it will still turn out to be something nonflat. The only options I can think of would have to be extensions into some other dimensional space.

As long as you stay close to home, thinking of the world as flat shouldn't cause you any problems. Plot celestial bodies simply as they move across the sky and Ptolemy's geocentric universe does a decent job. As long as you stay close to earth, Newtonian physics still work fine. Scientific progress has always fine-tuned our understanding of the not immediately obvious.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 07:11 PM

I've heard that it's slightly flattened at the poles...but not so that you'd really notice all that much.

Look, there are hundreds of thousands of stupid guys who think they're God's gift to women, just because they have a penis! That PROVES that people are capable of believing anything, regardless of evidence to the contrary.

They're just selective about how they view and interpret the evidence, that's all. :-) ("She really has the hots for me, man. She's just pretending she can't stand me, eh? Oh yeah, she wants it bad!")


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: John O'L
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 07:29 PM

"One thing about scientific discoveries is that they don't go backwards"

Pythagorus had the earth going around the sun, but some 200 years later Aristotle caused the sun to go around the earth instead.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: John O'L
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 07:36 PM

(Which it had done up until when Pythagorus caused it not to.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 07:40 PM

Those kind of things go in and out of fashion. Like long and short dresses.

Stupid men who think they are God's gift to women, however, have been here since time immemorial. It's clearly a far deeper level of belief than this stuff about the Earth and the Sun.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: John O'L
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:23 PM

I thought women were God's gift to men.

I wonder what Pyth & Ari would have said...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:32 PM

Hard to say. Women (in general) are God's gift to men...and to children in particular.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST,Python Harry
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:39 PM

It is the east, and Juliet is the sun


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Gurney
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 04:10 AM

I personally don't believe any seafarer EVER believed that the earth was flat. To do that, you would have to discount the evidence of your own eyes.
People who sat behind a desk, working theories out from books, yes, they might think it was flat, but not mariners.
However, it would be politic to concur with the Church when you were ashore, to ensure that you didn't end up on the rack.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:08 AM

Just like it is politic right now in the US to have "faith" and "believe" that there is but one Christian god.

I don't believe in miracles, because I don't believe in god. And I am sick to death of the dominant Anglo American society trying to shove religion down my throat.

And that goes for you too, TW.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 08:52 AM

Hell, any protein is as miraculous as the things Tammy mentions. It is very imprecise language for an interaction between a complex system and the appreciation of it by an under educated viewpoint, such as mine or hers. I would offer the thought that deciding it must be Big Being done it is a premature conclusion based on legend more than evidence.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 09:14 AM

Given the fact that Christianity itself has only been around for 2,000 years.... :-) It seems HIGHLY unlikely that God is exclusively Christian! (unless he/she/or it converted...)

For a nice, refreshing change, Guest, try reading about Taoism or Buddhism, where you don't even NEED to believe in an anthropomorphic "God" figure (made in the image of a human being). Or study the North American Indian Medicine Way, where "God" is referred to as the Great Mystery (that which cannot be defined or explained) (the Unmanifest out of which manifestation arises). I don't think Indians pictured a great big Chief up in the sky. Then there's Hinduism, another interesting take on the subject...where God is viewed in literally hundreds of different ways, all of which are merely aspects of the transcendent Divine, which is indescribable and again, Unmanifest. These are levels of understanding about reality, that's all. They are ways of interpreting subjectivity as opposed to objectivity...existence as opposed to non-existence...and so on. Well worth looking into.

If there is a God, it doesn't CARE whether or not you believe in it, in my opinion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 10:25 AM

Almost all our commonly accepted beliefs of reality are wrong, or will be proven wrong in time.

Having adopted a Shamanistic view of the world at age 15, I have found I can see things that other people may not. If you do not have a framework or mindset to see certain things, they will be invisible to you. Some of these different ways of seeing are important to survival itself but many are banal.

Seeing one thing at two places at once with the naked eye is a reality but seldom recognized by most people. Anytime something is sufficiently alien or different from all your collected experiences or learned possibilities - it will be virtually invisible to you.

Different or expanded ways of seeing are neither good or bad and offer no guarantee of being a happier or more well adjusted person.
Just as a mathmatician might see a matrix in nature, it is not always an intrinsic advantage to the mathmatician to see a certain reality.

How far you wish to pursue an expanded view of reality is up to you but there is always a point where it is convienent to turn back to enjoy the reality of the familiar.

Should you pursue a path into realities new to you?
Is it worth it?
It is.
But be prepared to not be believed.

For example: http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/balloflight1.jpg


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 10:34 AM

Don't be rude, LH ... it's She doesn't care. :D

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 10:43 AM

LH, I am a secularist, and I care about ethics, not religion or spirituality. Therefore, I don't find Buddhism to be superior to Christianity. Both have some excellent philosophical and mystical aspects to them, but for the most part, not. For the most part, it's all about doctrine, dogma, and divide and conquer. Organized moralistic religions, along with their pietistic believers, "faithful" have caused more human suffering and misery on this planet than any mad dictator from Attila the Hun to Saddam Hussein ever could.

I'm no more interested in Buddhist mythology than I am Christian mythology. All religion is some cultural groups mythology.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 09:49 PM

As I've said, and this is just the way I see it: -- Belief and or faith mostly seem to be concepts based on wishful thinking.

Art Thieme


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:11 PM

I understand that you are a secularist, Guest. I was a secularist for sort of the first half of my (present) life...then I expanded my views a bit. I am not suggesting that Buddhism is necessarily superior to Christianity, I am suggesting that it is another way of looking at things, and well worth considering...as is Christianity also.

The common assertion that religions are responsible for "most of the past sufferings" of humanity are simply an indication that the speaker has an emotional problem with the whole concept OF religion. It is as easy to find evidence of religion uniting people as dividing them...helping people as harming them...just depends on what you have decided to focus your attention on, that's all. If your pet hate is religion, then you will only focus on the abuses committed in the name of religion...and you'll never run out of evidence to support that bias. :-)

Now, if you were instead hung up on the idea that power-seeking is the problem...or that money is the problem...or that men are the problem...

See where I'm going with this?

Your statements don't indicate as much of anything about religion as they do about you. You've got a hostility problem where the subject of religion is concerned.

I have a hostility problem where the subject of greed for money is concerned, so that's more where I tend to look when explaining the ills of the World, past and present.

I used to have a much bigger hostility problem around religion when younger, but have moderated it considerably, though I'm still not a big fan of organized religion, in a general sense. I prefer individual spiritual investigation to organized religion.

Buddhism is not about an exterior divine authority, it's about disciplining your own mind, so as to attain inner harmony and detachment. How does that offend you? And why would it? Most people are almost incapable of quieting or disciplining their mind...they don't control it, it controls them. The Eastern disciplines are almost all aimed at mastering, quieting, and controlling the mind, which results in controlling outer actions. The more subtle forms of contemplative Christianity (as practiced by a number of notable saints and adepts) were aimed at the same thing.

As for the normal, social, secular morality that you and I both subscribe to...such as not stealing, not lying, not murdering, being honest, paying debts, being kind, and so on....they ALL orgininated in ancient religious teachings. Every last one of them. All of our most basic common civil law started as religious rules of conduct.

So, my friend, where would we be now without religion? Living by the law of tooth and claw, that's where.

You have chosen only to see the historical abuses of organized religion, and in doing so you have thrown the proverbial baby out with the bathwater, as the saying goes. It was an arbitrary decision on your part. You might just as well have decided that MEN were to blame for the World's ills or that POLITICS is to blame or that COMMUNISM is to blame. And that would be the mythology which you would use to explain reality and to determine who the "enemy" was. And it IS mythology. You chose it, you see the World through it, and it becomes real to you...but it isn't real. It's simply a small part of what is real...a half-truth...a mental construction based upon prior prejudice.

Religion is both good and bad, helpful and harmful, uniting and dividing...just like money...depending on WHO puts it to use and HOW they put it to use. It's not all black, it's not all white, it's every shade of gray.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: mandoleer
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:46 PM

One thing that puzzles me about Christianity is when they tell you that if you don't believe, you should ask God to give you faith. Errrrr, perhaps I'm missing something there.... And sorry, Tanny, but while you may be 'part of it', I'm part of something else. There are a lot more gods around than Jahweh.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Gray D
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:51 PM

Erm . . . if the earth is not flat, why do the sausages stay on my plate a dinner time?

A?

Gray D


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Gray D
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:54 PM

"at dinner time " I meant.

I'be nod well. See "April Flu's Day" dread.

Dray D


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:18 PM

Your sausages are hanging on for dear life, afraid that they will slip off the side of the plate, that's why. They know the World is round, you see.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Gray D
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:36 PM

Liddle Hawk,

If your sausages have fingers . . . take them back to the shop.

No, really.

Dray D


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:37 PM

Worms don't have fingers, and worms can hang on. Slugs too. I rest my case.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 11:31 AM

One need not accept religion or have faith to ponder what is mysterious to we mere mortals about life, death, the planet, or the universe. But that doesn't mean I buy into the idea that what is mysterious to me "means" something beyond the fact that I, along with the rest of humanity, are clueless.

And I'm perfectly OK with us being clueless about that stuff. What I'm not OK with is people starting wars over it, abusing and harming others because of it--and claiming they are doing it for my own good.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 11:32 AM

I believe I could use a flippin' beer ritht now!

- BDiBR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 10:44 PM

Seems you always believe something until that belief changes based on experience. I have a system of beliefs that is quite fluid and it could include something absurd until something occurs that changes that belief into a new belief.

Are there any humans that believe nothing?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: You will believe anything if you believe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 11:07 PM

None, Dianavan. None whatsoever. There is also no one who does not have some (usually many) beliefs based upon faith, although...they may be quite unaware of it. Most people ARE unaware of a great many of their most basic beliefs and motivations, because most people do not engage in much self-examination. They examine others instead, and they focus on the outer conditions around them...all of which, however, are interpreted directly according to their own inner consciousness...the thing they are not much inclined to pay any attention to.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 14 May 7:02 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.