BS: The New Anti-semitism

Subject: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:36 PM

I first saw this article in the Jewish periodicle that the JUF puts out.

It is so right on the money.

I apologize for my blue clicky handicap"

http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles/archives/000498.html

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 05:41 PM

In what way is this year old article so "right on the money"?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 06:23 PM

I think I'd agree that anti-semitism seems to have become fashionable again. People use Israeli politics as an excuse to blame all Jews for everything but the kitchen sink. Martin, what are your views on the subject?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 06:28 PM

What's changed in a year?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 06:31 PM

These ARE very complicated issues. This article illustrates that point quite well, as do many, many, many other articles. The big question before everyone is how to solve the problems and find peace for all involved!?

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:35 PM

Here are the words of a few other Jews on the subject:

Living with the Holocaust: The Journey of a Child of Holocaust Survivors

Seven Pillars of Jewish Denial

The Diaspora and the Intifada: The responsibility of American Jews. by Rabbi Ben-Zion Gold

Our foppish self-righteousness By Shulamit Aloni

Manufacturing Anti-Semites by Uri Avnery

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:36 PM

Joe, thanks for asking.

This article true is a year old, but it was just run in an important Jewish periodical put out by the JUF which is the Jewish United Fund. I hope that it's run in many others for a long time. The author, has been doing seminars on the subject.

I believe the left, in all it's anti-establishment, protect the downtrodden ways is so far removed from the left-wing element of the recent past. Quite frankly, it has lost it's way in what is good and what is evil and what is common sense.

I didn't expect a lot of discussion here on this and I really don't care. The article addresses and reveals the issues clearly and intelligently. What I do hope is that the radical left will read this and I thank those that made a proper link out it. I hope that you will see how the radical left is more and more being perceived by Jews who are part of the organized world of Judaism.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:45 PM

CarolC, your on-going anti-semitsm is well known on this forum.

Your dislike of all things Jewish and Israel are also well known on this forum.

Your articles and your attitude are not the reflection of the Jewish people and are not presented by you as a Jew because you are not one.

You are exactly the type of person the Philips article I posted is singling out and Jews all over are reading this and agreeing that it is you and your ilk that promote today's anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:06 PM

A very good article but I wonder if this is true or if its over exagerrated.

"...in which respectable British people say openly that they sympathise with the mass murder of Jews by Palestinians because they are 'fighting for their freedom'; and in which Israel is being systematically delegitimised and dehumanised."

I wouldn't know because I do not live in Britain. I've never heard anything about the mass murder of Jews or people who would sympathise with mass murder in Canada.

I also wonder about the wisdom of a nation (any nation) who relies on military superiority to quell dissent and attack innocent civilians.

Although I think the formation of the State of Israel was not well thought out, I certainly don't think the destruction of Israel is the answer. I also do not think it is up to the rest of the world to solve Israel's problems.

I also do not believe that Jews are the only people who have been oppressed or subjected to genocide. What would happen if we gave Natives their homeland and pushed all others into the desert regions? What if we gave African Americans a homeland in Georgia to call their own? What if we gave Romania to the Roms? How about we give back Ireland to the Irish?

I just don't understand why Jews are so special.

Could it be that they have a powerful lobby in Washington and Washington has a great deal to gain?

Its not about anti-semitism as much as it is about what is fair. I do not hate Jews but I do not like the power of the Israeli/American alliance and the double standards that are applied world-wide.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:10 PM

Those are some good articles Carol linked to there. I think the response made by a subsequent poster reflects and confirms that.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:16 PM

Well, I hate to beat the dead horse but we have a very polorizing adminstration and one of the very sad and painfull byproducts is hatred... This adminsration has been more devisive than any I can remember. It goes out of its way in pitting groups against other groups. It doesn't have the faintest idea about the concepts of compromise or negotiation... So, yeah, it is no wonder that there would be a lot of folks purdt danged pissed off at other folks... It has been their intent and they stategey to stay in power... It is 180 degrees opposite the Clinton who bent over backwards to accomodate the oppostion party...

And, again unfortunately, the world seem to be very much influenced by these same diversionary tactics...

When Bush came into office he turned his back on the Middle East becuase he didn't want to appear to agree with anything that Clinton did and, bang, things escalated horribly and now every night we were seeing suuicide bombers on one side and tanks and bulldozers carving up Palestian neigborhoods on the other...

After awile these scenes, which I might add were aired by Bush's coroprate buddies, on the nightly news took the *desired* toll on folks and so, as a consequence, yeah, I think there is a higher level of *homemade* anti-semitism... But there a lot more of intolerance accross the board... Things are so hostile that a guy could find a cure for cancer tomorrow and half the people would hate him fir some reason or another...

But waht the Bushites here don't get is that this is all be orchestrated by Karl Rove with one single purpose in mind: colsolidation of power... And it's working just the way they drew it up... Where-ever you look Karl Rove is manipulating the people...Hate to say it again but just as Hitler did in the 30's...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:38 PM

Martin:

Anti-Semitism is wrong.

Using the charge of anti-Semitism as way of stifling legitimate discussion on the subject of Israel, which is what you do, is also wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:22 PM

Bullshit, Carol C.

Find me one article on the internet that states I, Martin Gibson is wrong. It's not wrong, just because you say so.

I don't care about discussion on this and most everything else here.

I have posted an article that I believe has a strong opinion on how anti-semitism is promoted by the left. I posted it so those here who this article hits home to can howl all they want. You can read it and agree or not. You can also find a top hat and cane and dance around on how the article makes you feel for all I care.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:23 PM

I haven't exercised my British contacts to get their take on things. I think of the British as institutionally anti-semitic but not bloodthirsty (any more). It is not hard to understand why arabists and those who hope for a Palestinian 'victory' utilize anti-semitism disguised as anti-Zionism in any venue in which they can find traction. I've seen it in Alaska. This tactic will work if it succeeds in instilling fear, but if opposed boldly and directly, it usually loses, because it is a tactic of cowards.

The English Playwright David Hare touched on some of these issues in his one man play "Via Dolorosa".

I've seen and heard enough of the rationalization of Antisemitism so that I classify it as a religion in itself. I am not aware of any other race/religious/class hatred that is as insistent and insidious. This in itself can cause some few Jews to leave the fold and join the opposition in an inevitably vain attempt to feel unpersecuted. It's a weakness.

I think Clinton tried to achieve some long term good in the Mideast but peace was quashed by the ill-will of Yassir Arafat. I think Bush means well but he and his friends are operating on their own reality set which will prove to be not too enduring. I think Ariel Sharon has been driven to take matters into his own hands by the lack of progress due to intransigence on both sides. I think he is well aware of the long view but must get a solid durable majority on his side in his own country. I think a stable consistent Israeli plan has a chance of drawing out the majority of Palestinians who want the same thing.

It would be most helpful if Palestinian society could free up to allow open dialogue to the same extent that it exists in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:27 PM

And I have countered on how anti-semitism is being promoted by yer hero, Martin...

Other than references to body parts how about coming out from behind yer shield and discussing those?...

Scared?...

You oughtta be 'cause Karl Rove don't care one ratt's butt about you or any other Jew... All he cares about is cenralizy power... As a Jew you oughtta have some level of disgust for what happenes when that is dome...

If you don't then youn are not a Jew but a friggin' moron...

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:36 PM

Hah, bobert!

I ain't scared of your little yellow belly pinko ass.

You idiot! See how rationale your discussion has become when the truth is revealed about you and you have nothing left to say. You resort to name calling and ranting just like the geek you are.

Learn how to spell and write like an educated person before you try to come here and push your bullshit on everyone, goon.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:45 PM

Find me one article on the internet that states I, Martin Gibson is wrong. It's not wrong, just because you say so.

You could begin by reading what I've already posted links to right here in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:52 PM

They do not say that I am wrong. These article were written by renegades and are far from credible. They are crap and you can find crap on the Internet that says murder is OK, also.

You are not a Jew, CarolC. Please do not fucking tell me what me or my people have to believe just to pacify you. We know who our and Israel's enemies are. The article I am showing you was published in one of the most well known and most respected Jewish organizations periodicals. They wouldn't touch your propaganda (and that is all it is) with a 10 foot pole.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:53 PM

And please deal with the fact that I insist that you are one of the most anti-semetic Israel/Jew haters here.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:54 PM

I bet you didn't even read them.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:58 PM

I did. They suck. So do you.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 11:00 PM

Martin, I know what you have been calling me. But that doesn't mean much considering what you call everyone else who disagrees with you on any subject whatever. I know what is in my heart. You do not.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 11:08 PM

No, so do you, Martin...

You wouldn't know Hitler if he knocked on yer friggin' door...

But you go on rantin' against me 'cause you say you don't liike my spellin'...BS... waht you don't like is I see thru you like a friggin' window...

You ain't no Jew... Yer a friggin' Bush worshipper... Get yer religions straight, pal...

You are about the most ignorant person I have ever met...

You are nuthin' bu8t a puppet in Karl Rove's puppet show...

I expected more of you and I am disappointed...

Ain't nuthin' that you can say here that can possibly offend me. You offend yourself and Jews everywhere with yer Bush worshipping!!!

Thou shalth have no other Gods before Me...

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 11:35 PM

dianavan, you wrote:

Although I think the formation of the State of Israel was not well thought out, I certainly don't think the destruction of Israel is the answer. I also do not think it is up to the rest of the world to solve Israel's problems.

The Zionist movement which resulted in the formation of Israel was proceeding by stages up to World War II. It is worthy of its own research or thread, but the formation of the State of Israel had little to do with 'thinking things out' due to the massive changes iin the World wrought by World Wars I and II. Until the First World War, the Middle East was under the purview of the Turkish Empire. Turkey allied with the Germans during WWI and post war Turkey pretty much lost her empire and England assumed the Mandate over Palestine, having made a commitment to a Jewish State partly as a response to a Jewish chemist who enabled wartime production of vital chemicals through an early use of industrial bioengineering. The United Nations approved of a division of the territories between Jewish and Arab, and the Arabs tried to forestall this by armed action on the part of the neighbor states, (Iraq included). So Israel was formed by the fortunes of war, as are many nations.

I also do not believe that Jews are the only people who have been oppressed or subjected to genocide. What would happen if we gave Natives their homeland and pushed all others into the desert regions? What if we gave African Americans a homeland in Georgia to call their own? What if we gave Romania to the Roms? How about we give back Ireland to the Irish?

I don't see anything in that sentence to either disagree with or to take seriously. There have been many oppressions and genocides through history. Jews have made an attempt to end their particular victimhood by resorting to a well defended Jewish State. As to Natives, if you mean Native Americans, there are Native homelands in the United States. I've been to several of them. I'm not aware of a significant number of African Americans at present requiring a homeland but you may be interested to know that the nation of Liberia in Africa was founded precisely for that reason, and was initially settled by African Americans.
There are plenty of Irish who think they already live in Ireland:-)

I just don't understand why Jews are so special.

Well, Jews aren't so special. They are human beings who wish to maintain a culture and religion and lifestyle as Jews. What makes YOU think THEY think they are so special?

Could it be that they have a powerful lobby in Washington and Washington has a great deal to gain?

Could definitely be that through sometimes bitter experience Jews have learned to be forthright about Jewish interests in the United States and the world. There are some other powerful lobbies in Washington, quite a few of them in fact that have nothing to do with Jews. There has long been a powerful petroleum lobby which has advocated Arab interests against Israel.

Its not about anti-semitism as much as it is about what is fair. I do not hate Jews but I do not like the power of the Israeli/American alliance and the double standards that are applied world-wide.

I am not clear what you mean. I don't know what you consider anti-semitism or a false use of the term. And I think the concept of fairness is a red herring. There is no fair solution to this problem. I can't help it if you think there is a powerful Israeli/ American alliance, but consider that during the cold war, the Soviets tried to establish influence in India, Africa and parts of the Arab world, the United States allied with Pakistan, Israel, and other parts of the Arab world. In this post cold war era, Israel remains the only country in the area with electoral politics and civil and social rights among its women (of all religions).

I think the double standard is quite objectionable and I have witnessed it used against Israel more than for her in requiring Israel to make sacrifices that are not required of her neighbors, and her neighbors are not required to make similar guarantees of safeguarding Israelis from violence, nor indeed establishing democratic reforms and due process of law for their own citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 11:49 PM

Martin, as a Jew with an opinion, I say what I feel. Hopefully I can do that without having other Jews who might be so politically correct where Israel is concerned that they cannot see clearly that the country that is Israel HAS done some truly horrendous things. I was not anti-Catholic or anti-Lutheran when, during World War 2, I felt many negative things about Germany. I do suspect you could find words enough in your dictionary to make it seem that I and others here could be anti those 2 religions.

But this is not semantics. It is war over there in the Middle East. -----

---- Still your semantic machinations manipulate our valid difference of opinion, and amazingly, morph it into intimating I have exhibited antisemitic feelings in these threads. All you are doing, though, is illustrating graphically how sadly true it is when pundits say that all is fair in war and love.

In another thread you pretty much said, "this is only a forum" and not a place real enough to form actual community bonds between participants. Why, then, is it a place that's real enough for you to vent your venom and denigrate and slander real people who simply have different ways of seeing these sad events than you do?? Or are you just "having fun" in this thread too??
No, I/we are not questioning Israel's right to exist. I do insist on having the right to call a spade a spade when I see it, and also say when Sharon isn't wearing any clothes.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:11 AM

robomatic - I appreciate your attempt to clarify my thinking about the subject.

Its this part that makes me feel a bit uneasy about the formation of Israel:

"and England assumed the Mandate over Palestine, having made a commitment to a Jewish State partly as a response to a Jewish chemist who enabled wartime production of vital chemicals through an early use of industrial bioengineering. The United Nations approved of a division of the territories between Jewish and Arab, and the Arabs tried to forestall this by armed action on the part of the neighbor states, (Iraq included)."

Wasn't this a rather cruel thing to do to the Arabs who claimed it was their holy land? Or did the world think that Arabs didn't matter and that they had no means of resistance?

What really bothers me is that it was partial payment to a Jewish chemist. Whaaaat?????????????

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:31 AM

This isn't the place to explain the fine detail of world history to someone who thinks that Romania is the lost homeland of the Romany. That kind of ignorance needs serious work.

Even if it were, that explanation wouldn't be very convincing coming from somebody who seems to think that there is an English government. There isn't, and hasn't been for centuries. British, or UK if you prefer. If you don't understand the distinction, how can we trust you to be accurate on other matters?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:56 AM

The article I am showing you was published in one of the most well known and most respected Jewish organizations periodicals. They wouldn't touch your propaganda (and that is all it is) with a 10 foot pole.

You can't have read any of the contents of the links I posted then, Martin, because this one...

Our foppish self-righteousness

...was published in Haaretz, which, if I'm not mistaken, is a major Israeli news publication.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:21 AM

Guest - I don't really think Romania is the lost homeland of the Roms. In fact I think they came from somewhere near Pakistan. I also do not believe there is an English govt. I know it is British.

I wouldn't doubt if you are one of the many who mistakenly call citizens of the U.S., Americans. Of course citizens of Canada and Mexico also come from North America and the U.S. really doesn't have exclusive rights to the name. But thats just more B.S. just like the B.S. you posted in an effort to start an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Tohe
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:12 AM

Wiat, Dianavan, let me understand, so Israel is *not* the Holy Land of Jews, a place they've been yearning for for 2000 years?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:13 AM

Shulamit Aloni belongs to the extreme left, in fact is a mirror image of the extreme right. So just like you would take thing they say with a grain of salt, do the same with her.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:30 AM

Using examples like Rom in Romania you display a profound ignorance of Jews and Zionism.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:03 AM

So martin you feel discriminated against? Tough.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:05 AM

I can only assume that the article is correct when it says that attacks on Jews and Jewish property have incereased. What people outside the UK may fail to realise though is that this seems to be part of an unfortunate general increase in racism and xenophobia. Not only are Jews being targeted but so are Gypsies, Moslems, Blacks and anyone else who doesn't fit the 'WASP' definition. Sends shudders down my spine to see it but I don't think I can deny it is happening in my own country:-( When the major opposition party has based part of it's election campaign on targeting Gypsies and Immigration and playing to the fears of those who do believe it is a major issue I wonder if it is time to leave.

I agree that it is a very serious business but I feel that to show the full picture we to retitle the article 'The new racism'. I can see why, being Jewish, the writer has chosen that angle but it does give the misleading picture that UK Jews have the exclusivity on racial attacks and abuse. While I also agree that the left is using the Sharron and Israel as a scapegoat for all the ills of the Middle East it is also true that other factions are using fear of other races and religions for their own ends.

Having said all that I don't want to detract from the fact that anti-semitism is a dreadful thing. By saying that it is only part of a much bigger sickness spreading through our society I only wish to make sure that people are aware of the other issues.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:10 AM

By saying that it is only part of a much bigger sickness spreading through our society

How very true. And martin is as guilty of bigotry as those he despises. If he can't learn tolerance why should he expect it.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 06:05 AM

Dianavan wrote:
robomatic - I appreciate your attempt to clarify my thinking about the subject.

Its this part that makes me feel a bit uneasy about the formation of Israel:

"and England assumed the Mandate over Palestine, having made a commitment to a Jewish State partly as a response to a Jewish chemist who enabled wartime production of vital chemicals through an early use of industrial bioengineering. The United Nations approved of a division of the territories between Jewish and Arab, and the Arabs tried to forestall this by armed action on the part of the neighbor states, (Iraq included)."


Wasn't this a rather cruel thing to do to the Arabs who claimed it was their holy land? Or did the world think that Arabs didn't matter and that they had no means of resistance?

What really bothers me is that it was partial payment to a Jewish chemist. Whaaaat?????????????

Dianavan:

I appreciate your efforts to ask genuine questions in the midst of mere "I know you are but what am I" cross-postings! Meanwhile, and this may be me more than you, you give (me) the impression of someone who doesn't find quality reading materials on their own and load up on some genuine facts (i.e. legitimate history books with footnotes and all). Whether it is me or CarolC or Martin Gilbert, all you are going to find in a thread (at best) is opinions and links to other opinions. I tossed out that business of the Jewish chemist* because I found it personally intriguing and I was hoping to stimulate that among the threadfolk. It is an interesting story, but obviously not the only reason His Majesty's government issued the Balfour doctrine. The Balfour doctrine in the main simply means that Zionist organizations in the early 20th Century weren't whistling Dixie by themselves. Jews were being persecuted especially in Tsarist Russia and what was known as "The Pale of Settlement". There were objective reasons for a government to desire a solution to the "Jewish Problem". I don't think HM Government ever issued a Declaration that it didn't perceive to be in its own interest. (And for the most part British behavior in the early part of the 20th Century favored Arabs over Jews, to the extent of inhibiting refugees from the Reich from finding safety in Palestine.

In fact the British government had used Arab nationalism as a successful tool to fight the Turks in WW I. And it resulted in blessing several Arab nations in formation. So why not a Jewish nation? The Balfour Declaration basically indicates that HM Government understood that such a question existed and that it was legitimate.

The fight for nationhood is always just that, a fight. There are many more nations in waiting than space for them. The Confederate States had a powerful will to nationhood. The Basque separatists claim they want to be a nation. The Kurds are well known for the same. There is an Alaska Independence party, there have been Texas separatists. Of the bunch, I personally have the most sympathy for the Kurds, and the least for the Texans, Alaskans, and Basque.

What we have in the Mideast is both Jewish and Arab aspirations for the same piece of territory. Both have been to an extent rewarded. There is effectively a Palestinian state already in existence if you consider that the majority of Jordanians are of Palestinian origin.

There was an objective need for a Jewish state which remains to this day. Just last night I heard a National Public Radio story about a group of people in India who consider themselves decendants of one of the 'Lost Tribes'. Out of an ethnic population of 300,000 mostly Christian, about 5,000 have made efforts to convert to Judaism and many of them want to migrate to Israel. This of course is worth a story in itself and is just the sort of hazy thread information that deserves to be checked out but shouldn't be taken as gospel on first look-see.

By the way, one of my current info sources is Thomas Friedman of the New York Times, whose book "From Beirut To Jerusalem" has a lot of interesting details of the issues of the 80's. He is Jewish, probably a Zionist, but he has been quite critical of Israel at times. He would be my example of somebody who can be critical of Israel without in any way being considered an anti-semite. I am less critical of Israel than he is by a long shot, though I've had my moments. But for the most part he is very clear in his writing, he usually considers a background of facts that many of us are not aware of, and he knows most if not all of the major players on sight, and they know him. These days he has transferred his major concerns to issues of Globalizations. His more recent booksa are: "The Lexus And The Olive Tree" and "The World Is Flat".

*Chaim Weizman masterminded the production of large quantities of acetone which was necessary for the British war effort (WW I). He apparently requested his payment in the form of political support for Jewish National homeland in Palestine. He played an important role in the creation of the Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 09:08 AM

There's quite a bit more to it than Weizmann, but he's definitely an important player. Barbara Tuchman's "Bible and Sword" would make an excellent starting point. David Fromkin's "Peace to End all Peace" is a very good book about the diplomatic and political history of the region.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:06 AM

Possibly so Allen. But argumentum ad hominem is not a real response. It is certainly true that there is anti-Semitism in the world. And anti-Semitism is always a bad thing. However, to attribute any criticism of the government of Israel as being either anti-Semitic (in the case of criticism by people who are not Jewish) or products of being a "self-hating Jew" (Martin has used this one), or of being a "leftist", all of these things are attacks on the messenger rather than a thoughtful discussion on the merits or the lack of merits of the argument itself.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:07 AM

My last was in response to your 18 Apr 05 - 04:13 AM post.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:12 AM

Guest, Allen: I was going to mention Tuchman's "Bible And Sword"! Couldn't remember the name of the author at the time so put it off.

I've gone back in the thread and can't see where you said anything meriting CarolC's argument above, which doesn't really say anything new.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:17 AM

robomatic, you have just proved my point. You don't have a legitimate response to my post, so you have made a personal attack on me instead.

My post was in response to this from Allen:

Shulamit Aloni belongs to the extreme left, in fact is a mirror image of the extreme right. So just like you would take thing they say with a grain of salt, do the same with her.

Maybe she is a leftist. But calling her a "leftist" is not a legitimate rebuttal of her arguements. It's an argumentum ad hominem.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:42 AM

Aloni is a woman of very extreme views and opinions who doesn't compromise. I already know what to expect in advance, and it isn't balanced. So like I would do with any extreme I excersize caution.
Consider the source as they say.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:24 PM

Carol:
Number one: You didn't particularize which of Guest,Allen's post you were attacking.
Number two: Guest,Allen didn't negate your argument, he made reference to possible bias on the part of the source in question, and in the latest post he has reinforced this notion of bias.
Number three: Biased sources may or may not be the only kind of sources one can find on the web. I've noticed you have a propensity for same. You are entitled to cite any source you wish, and Guest,Allen or I or anybody can indicate when he/she/it feels that source is biased and the nature of that bias. This need not call for you to suggest an ad hominem attack. Rather, you would better illustrate your or your source's argument via explaining the logic or reasoning or facts of the position.

I am sorry that you interpret my words as a personal attack. Such was not my intention. Rather your words appeared to be an attack and it was not clear on what or whom. Now that you have clarified the nature of your words, I repectfully disagree as noted above.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:25 PM

Yes, I can understand that you would find yourself wanting to do that, Allen. In my own experience, I have seen Thomas Friedman repeat lies on television, so I tend to disbelieve anything he says until I have checked it out for myself. But I can't use that as a legitimate rebuttal of robomatic's post in which he recommends a book by Mr. Friedman and expect to be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:29 PM

Number one: You didn't particularize which of Guest,Allen's post you were attacking.

Yes I did, robomatic. In the post just above yours, at 18 Apr 05 - 11:07 AM. But I wasn't attacking it. Just responding to it.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:39 PM

I wonder what label would be used if the US or Canada or the UK, for that matter, were the settlers in the land that is now Israel? Would any verbal attack on the settlers be construed as anti-Americanism or anti-Britishism? Why does being against or questioning the wisdom of its tactics and goals of Israel equate with anti-Israelism? Surely it has to do with government, not with characteristics of a people?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:41 PM

On the whole I respected the view of Rabbi Gold, but he does bring up the falsehood of Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount sparking the uprising. Bit hard to do that when it had started a day or two before.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:52 PM

"Why does being against or questioning the wisdom of its tactics and goals of Israel equate with anti-Israelism? Surely it has to do with government, not with characteristics of a people?" (Ebbie 12:39

Sorry, I meant to say anti-Semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:53 PM

Which means that while perhaps not actually striking the match, he quite deliberately poured gasoline on the fire.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:04 PM

LOL
In my own experience, I have seen Thomas Friedman repeat lies on television, so I tend to disbelieve anything he says until I have checked it out for myself. But I can't use that as a legitimate rebuttal of robomatic's post in which he recommends a book by Mr. Friedman and expect to be taken seriously.

That's right Carol because then you'd be accused of making an ad hominem attack!

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:04 PM

No, what it's a very clever manipulation that's what. The Waqf very deliberately seized upon it and blew it out of all proportions. Makes a very convenient excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:05 PM

That's right Carol because then you'd be accused of making an ad hominem attack!

Precisely, robomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:13 PM

No bobert, it is you who are ignorant and very unkowledgable about many things, especially about Israel and Jews. You and the radical left are the Jew haters and Israel's enemy. calling me Hitler means nothing to me. It shows how what you will resort to when your little pee ppe is exposed for what you really are. It just shows how you completely explode when your dear precious radical left is exposed for what it is.

And fyi, can you really, really prove I voted for Bush. No you can't, and it's possible I just voted against Kerry, who would be Israel's and probably the U.S.'s downfall You are carrying on like the raving left wing lunatic and USA hater that you are. Your quantity and lack of quality of anti-American threads you have started speaks volumes.

Don't come to Chicago, bobert. Your mouth and attitude will expose you immediately amongst reasonable thinking people. We have the second biggest Jewish community here in America.

It is and has emerged that the left is way too anti-Israel to not also be anti-Jewish.

Deal with the fact that I consider you an enemy of the U.S. and of Israel. because you are.

Art, you are a Jew probably by birth. I dare to speak that you haven't practiced your religion or set foot in a shull for decades to under stand what "your people" think and relate to anymore.

Ebbie, the crux of the article is about anti-semitism hiding/lurking under the anti-Israel sentiments.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:14 PM

I was saying you need to be cautious when reading articles by her. It was not really a rebuttal or ad hominem attack. If you don't want to recognise that she is biased or extremist, that's no problem of mine.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:21 PM

Not every criticism of Israel is Anti-Semitism, but more than enough use it to rationalise their Anti-Semitism. There is a difference and that is what the link that Gibson posted is about.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:54 PM

Not every criticism of Israel is Anti-Semitism, but more than enough use it to rationalise their Anti-Semitism.

I agree with this completely. And, conversely, there are more than enough people who use the charge of anti-Semitism (as well as "self-hating Jew", and "not Jewish enough") as a way of trying to stifle legitimate discussion on the subject of Israel, regardless of whether or not the people being so charged are actually anti-Semites. That is what Martin Gibson does.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:22 PM

Get the point, Marvin and others: I doubt very much that anyone reading heee is unaware that the article's position is that anti-Israel criticism equates to anti-Semitism. I am questioning that reasoning. It is a facile, slippery assumption.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:42 PM

Read the article again. It is about using Anti-Israel to justify Anti-Semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:57 PM

Correct, Guest Allen.

That is what it is about. It is about the veil of anti-semitism hiding behind the anti-Israel movement by the left.

and ebbie, I believe that the author is presenting it as more fact than assumption. You and other "lefties" just look at it in denial, especially CarolC because you defend terrorists and dictators instead of supporting a democracy that the U.S and YOUR enemy George Bush are aligned with.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM

I am bloody sick of getting Jews pushed down down my throat as the victims. What about those poor kids living in Palestine the land which America and Britain solved their owns problems on after World War Two. I am sure there are decent Jewish people, but my heart goes out to the people of Palestine. Not the latest state on Old Glory.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:17 PM

You and other "lefties" just look at it in denial, especially CarolC because you defend terrorists and dictators instead of supporting a democracy that the U.S and YOUR enemy George Bush are aligned with.

This is a lie, Martin. I have never once defended terrorists or dictators.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:27 PM

Good grief.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:30 PM

Why oh why do you all keep feeding this troll Gibbon.

He is a troll who does Jews no justice at all, if they new about his behaviour on this forum he would be told to fuck off.

It is not a different persona he put on for this forum it is the real him and he needs to deal with it - up the medication you looser.

He/she is making fools of you all……..I am not to sure he/she knows that though given his present state of mind

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:32 PM

In my own experience, I have seen CarolC repeat lies in Mudcat discussions, so I tend to disbelieve anything she says.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:42 PM

Guest 3:30 you are an idiot. I know exactly what I am doing and it's making you miserable and I am loving it.

Guest 3:32 you are very cool and completely right.

Curator, obviously the article I posted hit a very uncomfortable chord with you. Excellent! Of course your silly, little twisted view from a screwed up monarchy in the 21st century would look favorably upon terrorists and dictators instead of the one democracy in the middle east. i wouldn't expect anything less from a moron such as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:00 PM

In my own experience, I have seen CarolC repeat lies in Mudcat discussions, so I tend to disbelieve anything she says.

Oh, yes? Which ones would those be then?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:21 PM

Quick, Guest.

find links. Any link will do. Just as long as you frantically post a lot of links that justify your position. forget about credibility. she does.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:24 PM

Dear Martin
If you think for a second your choice of words mean anything to me, they don't. I can see you like to wind people up, I have no problem with that. As to your words that your post hit a uncomfortable chord, it didn't. The hero's in Palestine trained a lot of our lads here in Ireland in the 1970's. Maybe that's what fires you up ? I really don't know why so many of you on this site even bother to answer this guy, he's a wind up merchant who's as thick as a plank. Give him a fools pardon, this child has problems. One point I think I must put you right on, everyone here knows I am a Irish Republican, and for you to say I take a view from a screwed up monarchy, well folks make your own minds up ! Now if I don't come back and answer you Martin don't take offence, but then again I might. Go on think up another couple of names for me (ones not already used on this site) come on give it your best.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:34 PM

I think Art made a rather interesting point when he wrote, referring to the person who started this thread:

In another thread you pretty much said, "this is only a forum" and not a place real enough to form actual community bonds between participants. Why, then, is it a place that's real enough for you to vent your venom and denigrate and slander real people who simply have different ways of seeing these sad events than you do?? Or are you just "having fun" in this thread too??

It's the question that has occurred to me from time to time. If this really is all a game - "having fun" - isn't that rather trivialising a pretty important topic. Are the unsustainable accusations thrown out, at Carol in particular, really just a kind of teasing, or is the hatred implied actually real?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:45 PM

forget about credibility. she does

That's pretty rich coming from you, Martin, considering you even accused GUEST,Allen of being pro terrorist in another thread.

Here was his response to you about that:

Subject: RE: BS: A discussion - What is antisemitism? .
From: GUEST,Allen - PM
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:21 PM

I'm Jewish and Israeli you prick and have never been pro-terrorirsts, you decided that I was. Best thing you can do for us is SHUT UP or talk like a human being.

Your post, of course, was deleted for being the personal attack that it was.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:54 PM

I admire you CarolC, I think your a lady. Please don't answer this guy.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:01 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Curator, I don['t care if you don't answer me or not.

I wouldn't expect much of an answer from someone who comes from a country as screwed up as yours anyway.

Why don't you just have another beer, laddie?

Carol C. obviously you either made up that post or are so obsessed and crazy that you save posts used on this forum somewhere other than here.

Do you have a special box you put them in? You are major weird, lady and I use the term loosely, because you are not. Talk about a fanatatical nut, CarolC, you take the cake.

If I did say that to allenC, I probably meant it, so it was the truth of how I felt about something he said.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:03 PM

I smell gas.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:08 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Guest, it's obviously your own. have another burrito and try changing your underwear once in a while.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:21 PM

Here you go, Martin...

http://www.mudcat.org/Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=1444275

Doesn't sound like you're having very much fun right now, Martin.


Thank you for your kind words, The Curator.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:25 PM

Don't drink Martin, sorry can't stop must go and talk to my good firends in Germany, have you any old friends here ?, great people.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:30 PM

Hmmmmmm, wonder why Martin, when he gets really defensive, other than his usual defensiveness, has to bring male genitelias into the conversation???

More of that polyporphorse perverse guilt of his showin' thru...

Like someone esle pointed out, Martin. Maybe it it time to talk with yer shrink 'bout a dosage increase of whatever he/she has you on 'cause it plainly ain't workin' fir ya...

And, fir the record, no one 'round here needs much proof that you not only voted fir Bush but you worship the man...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:43 PM

I'd apreciate it if I was not dragged in to fights that don't concern me.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:56 PM

You're right, Allen. My mistake. Please accept my apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 06:11 PM

So you are all going to carry on feeding the troll gibbon m

Jew - he/she does not know the meaning of the word and never will.

Gibbon I hope you do not have children because there life is doomed with you being anywhere near them, I pity them if they exist, poor children

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:46 PM

To The Curator and Guest: Do you see the disconnect between what you are saying and what you are doing? You yourselves are answering the troll while exhorting us not to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 09:28 PM

For the purpose of this thread I'm content with the following definition:

Anti-semitism is the hating of Jews - more than is necessary.

ttfn

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:23 PM

The Curator can't see past his beer because he is so anti-semitice living in Ireland, with no exposure to any other culture except the Arabs they have let in to take over.

bobert, being the moron that you totally are, you forget that I live in the most Democratic city, county, and state in the country, being Chicago, Cook County, and Illinois.

What you don't know is yes, I voted for Bush because Kerry was a complete idiot and I am glad he lost if not for the reason that a goon like you wanted him to win.

Your forced folksiness is wearing real thin here as I get PM after PM expressing gratitude that I stand up to you and your silly little clique here. With many radical Mudcatters leaving recently, I would say that I have rather enjoyed their departure and have noticed that my boldness has brought more and more moderates and commonsense thinkers to also express their opinions more frequently.

You're as arrogant as they come, bobert and CarolC, you are as obsessive as they come.

The Curator is just a fool who lives in a thrid rate country and doesn't know much about much except another pint of Guiness.

Hey, notice Mudcat isn't what it used to be? Goddamn right.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:13 AM

It may be that anti-Israeli sentiments are a cover for anti-semetism for some, but not for all. Thats a stereotype just like all other stereotypes. I have no problem with Jews or any other other culture but I do have problems with certain political organizations; including Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: harpgirl
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:38 AM

Decomposed bodies are less offensive than "martin gibbon."

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:25 AM

The article is very good at showing how Anti-Semitism has become transformed, in fact, is popular again. It's a case of roses and what you call them. It doesn't say criticism of Israel = Anti-Semitism, instead it challenges you to rethink what is legitimate criticism and what is not.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:57 AM

Martin surely you can do better than that, I like so many are still laughing at you. Yes your so right about British ruled Northern Ireland being a third rate country (I am a Republican). At least we agree on something, stop picking on CarolC, she is making a little boy out of you with her skill and knowledge.Come on Marty boy pick on me and leave these good people alone.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:04 AM

He feels superior when picking on females. It is a power/fear combination. His intellect does not allow reasoned discussion. I had a good grin at his 'laddie' comment. He really hasn't a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:42 AM

"Martin"--

"Boldness"? --

I'm surprised that one of your amazing intellect and powers of observation would mistake your "boldness" for what it is--a staggeringly infantile and despicable way of answering anybody who disagrees with you even a little.

As well as, of course, somehow not being willing to stand behind anything you say with your real name.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:02 AM

Yeah, I got a good chuckle from the "boldness" statement as well. It ain't exactly a fine line that seperates "boldness" from "ignorance" but a wide, wide valley... Maybe Martin meant *baldness*...

But I am glad that, ahhhh, hmmmmmm, I was gonna say DougR but he doesn't have an trouble standing up to me.... Well, whomever they are, I'm glad that Martin is getting bombarded with PM's from the folks here in Mudville who have to hide unner their beds in fear after reading one of my posts...

Maybe you should run fir sheriff, Martin???...

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:55 AM

This thread got off to an uncharacteristically good start with MG posting a link to a valid article with something to say, though it was a bit dated.

It has rapidly downshifted to 'so's your old man' status. Not just most of you, but all of you have been there before. MG is a known quantity, you have already played this game in many other threads, and now this one, too.

Clearly that is what you really like doing. You have no excuse that anything different has happened here that has not happened elsewhere. Martin finds it absurdly easy to disrupt this or any thread. You really like piling up on Martin. At this point, MG could very well be laughing up his sleeve at how easy you are all diverted. And he'd be RIGHT.

It is instructive to me that given a chance to go back to the blackboard, or stay in the playground, almost everybody chooses the playground.

I thought you guys were better than that.

Maybe I should start swearing up a storm in all my posts, too.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:54 AM

Carry on regardless feeding the sick bastard, he is making fools of you all, are you happy with that?
Just remind me you are adults are you not?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 10:42 AM

One of the problems I have with the Melanie Phillips article is that she doesn't seem to take into account the many people who support the existance of the State of Israel, but who disagree with the expansionist policies of the Israeli government. I don't live in Britain, so I don't know if there are very many people there who have this position, but she doesn't really seem to care whether or not such people exist, and doesn't seem to have taken the time or effort to find out. She just lumps everyone into one category: people who want to see the destruction of the State of Israel. Ms. Phillips is guilty of her share of stereotyping, and in my opinion, stereotyping is always a destructive thing.

Some of the things she says are simply not true. This part, for instance:

Israel is presented as crushing the Palestinians under a jackboot, and the settlements are obsessively dwelt upon as the obstacle to peace. I don’t approve of the settlements; and I also deplore the inevitable brutalisation that has afflicted Israel and which marks any occupation. But the presentation of the issue ignores the fact that more than 95% of the disputed land was offered to the Palestinians in 2000 to form a state of their own, provoking only the response of the current war of mass civilian murder.

And then she says this:

A columnist listed Jewish journalists (including the present writer) who she claimed were controlling public debate. Former Archbishop Desmond Tutu, having compared Israel to South Africa under apartheid

This is just bullshit. That "95% of land that she is talking about is in the form of little bantustans divided up by Jewish only roads and Jewish only settlements, guarded by the IDF, making the free movement of Palestinians from one part of their land to another either exceedingly difficult or completely impossible. And also rendering a viable independent state and a viable economy virtually impossible. If it was just 5% of the disputed land in question, the second intifada would never have taken place. And Archbishop Tutu was entirely correct in comparing the bantustans surrounded by Jewish only roads and settlements proposed by the government of Israel to the bantustans surrounded by White only land in South Africa. They are the same thing.

The other problem I have with it is that she starts out saying that criticism of the government of Israel is a valid thing and not necessarily indicative of anti-Semitism, and then she spends the whole rest of the article suggesting that all criticism of Israel is indicative of anti-Semitism. I see her article as an attempt to stifle legitimate discussion about Israel through implied charges of anti-Semitism rather than direct charges of anti-Semitism. Different tone, same tactic. She is just as guilty of prejudice and stereotyping, and I would suggest, probably some degree of hatred towards those she sees as being different than herself as she is accusing others of being.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:14 AM

Being equated with apartheid is sheer ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:15 AM

No it isn't, Allen.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:17 AM

Ok pray enlighten me.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:31 PM

An old thread about leftist anti-smitism

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:05 PM

Robo is right. CarolC, Curator, and guys like RON DAVIES who thinks that just because he uses his real name makes him credible and superior but doesn't realize that I can laugh extra hard at the real named person RON DAVIES going through life as a fool.

RON DAVIES, you are a leftist who has no clue to my culture or really much of anyone's except your own. Please go pray to your ACLU/politically correct Kerry statue and realize that your opinion means crap to me. I have more respect for honest Guests here than I do for you. If you want a medal for using your real name here, first get a chest to pin it on. Personnally, I think you are a total fool for doing so.

Curator, it's been fun yanking your chain. Your country is third rate and so is your knowledge. CarolC's is even lower and will constantly be acknowledged by me for all to read that she is the most anti-Israel, anti-Jew, anti-American on this forum. I could give a crap if she pees sitting down or if her name was CarlC. She's dangerous to people and this country. I hope if the FBI monitors this forum which I am sure they do at this point that they got her pegged.

Anti-Semitism lives as usual through the Mudcat forum. The point of my initial post all along. Thanks for continuing to identify who you are.

Love ya!

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:25 PM

Main Entry: apart�heid
Pronunciation: &-'p�r-"tAt, -"tIt
Function: noun
Etymology: Afrikaans, from Dutch, from apart apart + -heid -hood
1 : racial segregation; specifically : a policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of So. Africa
2 : SEPARATION, SEGREGATION [I favor apartheid of smokers -- L. E. Bellin] [sexual apartheid]

The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem live completely at the whim of the government of Israel and the IDF in bantustans that are separated from each other by the land that is reserved only for Jews in those areas, and are segregated from that Jewish only land, as well as from Israel itself, and they have no legal rights whatever under the military occupation there. The situation in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem is not exactly the same as that of South Africa... in some ways it may be somewhat better (although I am not aware of any), and in some ways it is worse. But it is similar enough for someone who lived as one of the oppressed under apartheid in South Africa to be able to reasonably make that connection, as Archbishop Tutu did after visiting the area.

Websters Dictionary

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:33 PM

I've often heard Tutu talking nonsense, and this is just one more silly example.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:52 PM

No it isn't, Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM

And it's not just Tutu, either. It's also some of the same members of the Jewish community in South Africa who opposed apartheid there who are making that comparison:

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0516-01.htm

FOR YEARS, critics have compared Israeli policies in the occupied territories to the old South African apartheid system. Now more mainstream figures � such as Zbigniew Brzezinski, the Canadian-born former U.S. National Security Adviser, and South African anti-apartheid stalwarts Bishop Desmond Tutu and author Breyten Breytenbach � are drawing the parallel. Members of the 80,000-strong Jewish community in South Africa have joined the debate as well.

Not In My Name, a declaration written by two leading Jewish anti-apartheid activists, Ronnie Kasrils and Max Ozinksi, and signed by 220 Jews, acknowledges Israeli security concerns but, as reported in The Guardian newspaper, adds:

"It becomes difficult, from a South African perspective, not to draw parallels with the oppression expressed by Palestinians under the hand of Israel and the oppression experienced in South Africa under apartheid rule."

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:24 PM

It's really CarolC in a tutu.

Max Ozinski is a radical Jew and far from anything mainstream. You will always get these types of radicals who are off the wall when it comes to what is the popular opinion. Sort of like the diseased minds of the radical left found at Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:37 PM

Your contention about the land being reserved for Jews equaling apartheid is rot. It's rather a lot more complicated than that.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:45 PM

Max Ozinski is a radical Jew and far from anything mainstream. You will always get these types of radicals who are off the wall when it comes to what is the popular opinion.

That's exactly the same sort of thing they said about Dr. Martin Luther King (except for the Jewish part). But even despite those kinds of ad-hominem attacks, he was still right.

It's "these types of radicals" who create change that brings with it social justice. You can be proud to know that there have been many Jews in the forefront of this kind of work for social justice.

However, in this context, Martin Gibson, you are the equivalent of the white racist in the US south who fought so hard against ending segregation and institutionalized racism. And you've even obliquely threatened me with a lynching with that comment about me and the FBI. Showing your true colors there.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:46 PM

told you that you would catch on to CarolC Guest, Allen

Get ready for a series of links showing why it is not "rot" and why she believes in being anti-semetic and BIGOTED.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:48 PM

Are you saying, Allen that those roads and settlements are open to Palestinians?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:57 PM

But I agree that it is a lot more complicated than that. Perhaps you did not see the article I posted in that other thread that was from the source you, yourself cited as a reference in support of some of the things you were saying. Interestingly, what he says in this article pretty much exactly supports the things I was saying on that other thread that you were calling "rot" (or a similar word). If you're going to use him as a legitimate source for your own postings, you'll need to be willing to accept him as a source for mine as well. From Baruch Kimmerling:

The Politicide of Palestinian People by Baruch Kimmerling

"Because Ariel Sharon's latest, more moderate incarnation has been so warmly received by the Bush administration, the US media, and the American public, it is crucial to understand both the context of his transformation and the actual behavior of the Israeli government toward the Palestinian people. The general context is that the primary goal of the present government is the destruction of the Palestinian Authority and the dismantling of the Oslo Accords. This can only be defined as the politicide of the Palestinian people, a gradual but systematic attempt to cause their annihilation as an independent political and social entity.

For this reason, Ariel Sharon has skillfully used the brutal and indiscriminant forms of Palestinian resistance - especially the suicide bombers - to create a chain of mutually escalating responses in order to induce both the Israeli and international community to accept his goal. Using the fight against terrorism as a pretext, he aims to divide the Gaza Strip and West Bank into tiny enclaves rules by local strongmen while claiming he is supporting the "reformation" and "democratization" of the Palestinian authority.

The final aim is to continue the Jewish colonization of the so-called "Greater Land of Israel" until Israel's exclusive and non-reversible control of the territories has been attained. Some analysts suspect or hope that one outcome of this project is to make daily life so miserable for Palestinians that large numbers will emigrate from the territories' something that has, in fact, occurred during the last few years.

Sharon learned from the Lebanon fiasco that, while such policies must be implemented militarily, they must cause minimal casualties. Otherwise, both international agencies and public opinion could turn against them. To minimize Jewish casualties, it is necessary to deploy large, heavily armed forces and to use cruel techniques like razing whole neighborhoods. Resistance is met with heavy fire power, as was the case in Jenin.

The immediate aim of "Operation Defensive Shield" was to disarm "bases of terrorism" by capturing weapons and explosives and to "liquidate" or capture those involved in Palestinian armed resistance. In other words, the goal was to dismantle any Palestinian security forces, not only to hamper their ability to fight Israel, but to dissolve the internal authority of Arafat's regime as well. For the same reason, Israel security forces also assaulted most of the national and public infrastructure and institutions and even destroyed databases like the one used by the Palestinian Bureau of Statistic.

Additional goals of the incursions, sieges, and extra-judicial executions were to demonstrate Israeli military might and its willingness to use it and to prove to the Palestinians that there were defenseless against any wanton action. The Arab states barely paid lip service to the Palestinian cause, denouncing Israeli actions just enough to avoid internal unrest, apparently because they feared Israel was looking for a regional war. Such a war could distract the Israeli public from the severe economic and social crisis within Israel ( such as a high unemployment rate and the beginnings of hyperinflation) and serve as a cover for uprooting large numbers of Palestinians from the land, as happened during the 1948 war.

However, the international community, including the United States, will soon recognize that in an era during which every nation (including the Jewish and Palestinian nations) has the right to self-determination, politicide is a crime against humanity that is very close in its severity to genocide."

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:06 PM

Do you realise the reason why the roads aren't open?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:13 PM

Yes. Because there are settlers there who don't belong there. The settlers are there as a part of a military strategy that has one goal... for all of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem to be gone from there. The roads and settlements are there to make life so difficult and such a bloody hell for the Palestinians, they will leave because they won't be able to justify staying.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:45 PM

Oh, certainly. If you say so.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:53 PM

Guest, Allen you are there! You see argueing with this know it all wench in a tutu is worthless!

She knows everything! and we all know nothing!

And she would help Israel cease to exist if she could because she truly is their enemy.

Yes, carolC is the biggest on-going anti-Israel Jew hater on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:57 PM

I'm not at all clear how it is possible to argue that the situatioin in Israel/Palestine does not involve a kind of apartheid.

Perhaps it can be argued that there are factors involved which might make it a more justifiable or at leaast more historically understandable, form of apartheid, but that is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:58 PM

Oh, certainly. If you say so.

Yes. I do. And so does your man Baruch Kimmerling. And also several former members of the IDF and former members of other Israeli security services.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:59 PM

( ...former members of Shin Bet)

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:01 PM

Martin... I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance.I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:10 PM

Some of the most ridiculous lies I have heard. Tired of this argumentum ad infinitum (if not nauseaum).

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:14 PM

You're contradicting your own source, Allen? I guess that means that you are not credible either since you are the one who used him.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:26 PM

CarolC

I don't blieve you, you are a liar and a phony and a hater of Jews and Israel.

I don't blieve you, you are a liar and a phony and a hater of Jews and Israel.

I don't blieve you, you are a liar and a phony and a hater of Jews and Israel.

I don't blieve you, you are a liar and a phony and a hater of Jews and Israel.

I don't blieve you, you are a liar and a phony and a hater of Jews and Israel.

I don't blieve you, you are a liar and a phony and a hater of Jews and Israel.

The article is about you CarolC. You and your ilk.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:28 PM

Nice try, Martin. No cigar.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:30 PM

Hello Little Marty boy, (I know where you got the Martin Gibson name from)Why not use your real name ? Marty don't think for a second your pulling my chain, If this was true, we would find you, believe me.No FBI over here son. And as to CarolC, I still think shes a great. Still awaiting your best shot Marty boy,

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:34 PM

What source would that be then?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:36 PM

The Curator, although I appreciate you stepping up to the plate on my behalf, I hope you can understand that I can't support any threats, implied, veiled, or otherwise, against anyone. Not even someone like Martin Gibson.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:36 PM

Baruch Kimmerling, Allen. Have you not been reading my posts to this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:40 PM

Wasn't aware he was my own source.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:59 PM

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:00 PM

It is obvious that you are reading my posts, Martin, and I wish you would stop.

Yes, Allen. You used him as a source for quite a lot of information that you posted in the other thread about anti-Semitism. That's where I got the name from. I did a search on the name after you provided it, and I found that article from him. Here's is your post in which you provided the name (click on the link):

http://www.mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=1445374

This is what you said about it:

I pulled most of the 1834 information from a book called "Palestinians; The making of a People" by Baruch Kimmerling and Joel S. Migdal. You could always try and find more information on Ibrahim Pasha and his Muhamad Ali (that's where Clay took the name from) but there isn't much available.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Moses
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:05 PM

Just because you think someone is a complete asshole and the asshole just happens to be Jewish, that doesn't make you anti-Semitic.

But it does make a convenient whine for the asshole to hide behind.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:12 PM

I was using him as my source on Palestinian history, and the history of Palestinian nationalism, which he happens to be very good at. Doesn't mean I can't say I think he's talking rubbish on other matters.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:19 PM

Oh, really. Nice little tactic there, Allen. I guess I can just assume that everything you say is garbage, then.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:23 PM

Nice little tactic? Oh c'mon get real.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:29 PM

Sure looks like one to me.

When I have more time, I'll find those former IDF and Shin Bet people.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:34 PM

Didn't know I had to agree totaly with someone because I thought they wrote a good book.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:46 PM

It seems like if you say something is "rot" or "garbage", you expect us to accept that as fact, Allen. And you don't even provide any support for these ad hominem labels. And all you have is ad hominem arguments for any documentation or other support that others provide that you don't agree with. You have offered nothing of substance to this discussion... just a few terse, unsupported opinions and ad hominem responses.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:57 PM

You could be describing yourself, except you seem to use more words. Not much point in arguing with you, bit like trying to break down a brick wall with one's head, so I'll be terse and spare myself the typing. Goodnight, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:14 PM

No, Allen, I don't think so. I haven't called anything you've said "rot" or "garbage" or "complete and utter bs" as you have with me. When you have said something I disagreed with, I provided my own arguments and I backed my arguments up with documentation. If you're not up to that level of debate, I'll understand. But you can't accuse me of using your kind of tactics, because I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:16 PM

I am having fun with you.

So all that indignation is actually a fake, just designed to take the piss out of people who care about that stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:27 PM

mcGrath, you are another Brit the article I posted describes.

Definately and for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:38 PM

Ya know what?

Some of the Palestinians whoes houses are being bulldozed today by Isreali's have had several houses bulldozed in the past... This is imperialism and has nothing to do with religion...

Yeah, one can argue all day long that stealing other folks homes is being done in the name of God but...

... like whoes God you hearin'????

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:50 PM

Moses said it all - "Just because you think someone is a complete asshole and the asshole just happens to be Jewish, that doesn't make you anti-Semitic.

But it does make a convenient whine for the asshole to hide behind."

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 12:24 AM

Third rate country?

We could teach you cunts something about Conflict Resolution, anyway.

Bombing WORKS, Martin! Remember that!
Read the writing on the Wailing Wall, before some crazy bastard blows it, and your fucking dream of peaceful co-existence, to Kingdom Come.

You will retreat to the 67 borders before anything happens, so here's to the long haul, eh?

Chicago's a long way from the Front Line, Martin, and if there's one kind of person I always despised is the Armchair Activist kind.

[bleep] (for gratuitous vulgarity)Go fuck yourself, you worthless piece of dung, and don't worry about us and the Arabs.

Worry abut YOU and the Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,NoBiZ
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:51 AM

hang on a sec could someone pleaz explain to me what all this fuss about roads is cuz i ccant get any good explinations

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:06 AM

I'm still confused whether the person who started this thread is intending to be taken as a self-parodying made-up character (in the same way as Cletus), who is poking fun at those people who actually do go way over the top in discussions; or is he (or she) supposed to be for real?

To quote Art Thieme's post earlier once again:

In another thread you pretty much said, "this is only a forum" and not a place real enough to form actual community bonds between participants. Why, then, is it a place that's real enough for you to vent your venom and denigrate and slander real people who simply have different ways of seeing these sad events than you do?? Or are you just "having fun" in this thread too??

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:19 AM

Hello Marty boy, as promised I would get past your handle. Marc Aaron Rosenmutter meant anything ??? Your FBI wasn't that quick. I would ease off now, they really are taking you apart with their answers, you just en't up to it.
See you Aaron.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,p o neill
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:16 AM

Marc Aaron Rosenmutter (AKA Marty Boy),
the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in the Hague, despite intense pressure from Israel, the US and the EU Governments, sonfirms what Palestinians and the world have known since the beginning of its planning and construction - THE WALL IS ILLEGAL!
Citing the right to Self-Determination, the Fourth Geneva Convention, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, relevant human rights and humanitarian law, as well as the Rights to Freedom of Movemnent, Work, Education, Health, Food and Water, Religion and the Right of the Child, the ICJ voted 14-1 that "constructuon of the wall and its associated regieme are contrary to international law and that Israel must immediately cease construction of the wall in all areas, dismantle parts already built and repeal any legislation or regulation relating to the Wall, make reparations for damages caused by construction of the Wall."

Ref: Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign www.ipsc.ie
www.stop the wall.org

(PENGON) Anti-apartheid Wall Campaign

Marty, i think we have all made our point on this thread.
Sorry to disappoint you,
p.s how's the armchair?

p o neill

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:33 AM

P O'Neill is an interesting handle. That's the pen name of official statements of the IRA. Is that meant as the threat it looks as the first glance?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Rouge et Noir
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:37 AM

A joker with no life

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Sean North
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:49 AM

Is the wall itself wrong or just the route

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 11:15 AM

I'm not at all clear how it is possible to argue that the situatioin in Israel/Palestine does not involve a kind of apartheid. (McGrath)

(1) Within the country of Israel there is no physical segregation according to language or ethnic origin I would know of. That's why I see nothing meriting the name Apartheid there.
(2) A wall between countries can be called a lot of things (as I know from my own country) but I have never heard the term Apartheid used for that.
(3) If the winner of a war takes territories not formerly being part of her country that can be called many names, in the case of Israel I'd call it stupid and some other names, but I have not yet heard that taking over of a part of a country being called Apartheid.

South Africa was a country segregating within its own boundaries and planning to 'source out' some pieces of SA with a part (a particular part) of its own population. Israel is a country that after having won a war has (stupidly, I repeat) annected some parts of other countries, treats these parts as its own territory and builds a wall to prevent people from neighbouring countries/territories entering Israel without permission.

If one swallows the Hamas propaganda unthinkingly then the whole country is still 'Palestine' with some Jews living in there. From that point of view, they call it 'Apartheid', for they do not want to have an Israel in the whole of 'Palestine' at all.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Limey bastard
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 11:49 AM

Leave Gibson alone. You should not care if he is a Jewish homosexual. All creatures great and what not.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Torctgyd
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 12:19 PM

Thought I'd join in the fun and put my pedant hat on:

As Semites are defined as "A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians" and that apparently most of the people of the Jewish faith are descended from Khazak and other converts and not from expatriates from the ancestral home of the Semitic people; it follows that if anyone is being Anti-Semitic it is the Israeli Government.

Shalom.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 12:26 PM

Anti-Semitism was specificaly coined to mean hatred of Jews. By Khazaks you mean Khazars, and it is by no means certain that most Jews are descendants. Bit of Anti-Semitic propoganda you are repeating. Have a look at www.khazaria.com

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Torctgyd
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 12:36 PM

Sorry for the mistype.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 12:41 PM

The mistype's the least of it.
Anyway:
http://www.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~goebel/ha/ha_antis.htm

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 01:01 PM

Here is the perspective of scholar Brigitte Brigitte Gabriel, an Arab from Lebanon.

Unlike the CarolCs and McGarths of this world, hers is a perspective borne of direct personal experience.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 01:33 PM

Would anyone care to get back to the central question? Surprised as I was to see it from the original poster, there is a genuine question to be resolved. Is criticism or questioning of Israel or "neo-conservatives" to be precluded simply because the target of criticism is Jewish?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM

Marc Aaron Rosenmutter--this is the ineffable name?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 02:33 PM

Thanks for such an interesting site. Do you know of any Jewish-Guitar teachers in the Chicagoland area?...for future songleaders/cantors?
Also, any extra info./websites about Jewish Guitar would be awesome.
Thanks.

Posted by Marc Aaron Rosenmutter at February 11, 2004 12:45 PM


AAh bless him, isn't he polite on the jewish guitar site.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 02:38 PM

Also on the Glenbrook leavers board of 1999. Wow Marc you have got married, had kids and become a high powered magnate very quick?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 02:45 PM

What a riot! No one is taking me apart Curator. sometimes I'm way too busy to spend every waking moment here, but I do check in. I can assure you the chicago metropolitan area of 8 million people I am not someone named Rosenmutter. Nowhere near it. It's come down to this! Look on the web and try to find someone from Chicago who plays guitar.
You just don't know how much fun I have with that whole moronic concept. Must have been someone from the Isles who came up with that thought. a cabbage brain, for sure!


This thread is every type of success I hoped it would be.

I have exposed much Mudcat anti-semitism.

I have my detractors and adversaries actually howling with anything they can throw at me.

I continue to show how Britain and some shanty Irish here have their head up their own tuchas as they continue to lose their own culture.

I continue to show what the far left is really like and how their tap dance continues.

If you don't believe anything I say ever here, please believe me that you have me on the floor laughing my hardest at you on this Rosenmutter thing!!

And Joe, Guest tie eogham's post was about as obscene a personal attack as can be and you let it stand without a bit of an anti-social bleep. I can dish it out and take it Joe, but your double standard is noted by all, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 02:56 PM

Sure, but it's a very fine line. Where was everyone who screams so loudly now when the Syrians massacred the people of Homs?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:08 PM

what we have here is a circus with a bunch of clowns running around harem-scarem
            helter-skelter
                         higgledy-piggledy
                                           hockety-pockety hubbledy-bubbledy
                hypsy-dypsy

each claiming to be the ringmaster.

But to the observer who might have been interested in the posted SUBJECT it's still a bunch o' clowns clomping around in big floppy shoes looking for their minicar.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:23 PM

Guess we don't all have an interest in what he has to say.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:57 PM

But, Guest, everyone read it anyway. Everyone always does!



OK, I'm really this guy rosenmutter.

You have found me out.

Here's my address:

1060 w. Addison St.
chicago, Il

Here's my phone number:

[phone]
Ask for Rosemutter.

Please call me. I need to talk to you and am waiting for your call.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 04:08 PM

Marty boy,or should I say Marc. I don't have any doubt what your name is. When I sent you the pm last night with your name, school and names of your two sisters, you wheren't just as perky with your reply, what was it again you said ? And you were wrong on the two sources you named. Go on do a public denial.Pity I couldn't see your medical notes !

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 04:10 PM

That's not the address Marc, unless you moved within the last four weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 04:18 PM

Why don't we just close this thread? It's getting nastier by the minute?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 04:36 PM

Why don't you post that under every post from your pal Marc? The boot is well and firmly on the other foot. How does it feel?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 04:46 PM

What the heck are you on about?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 07:20 PM

I feel a Gargoyle-type outing coming on...

What do you think Marc,[bleep] (for antisocial behavior) you worthless piesce of dung, you?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:04 PM

First of all, it's Mark, not Marc

Come on, call me at that number. I want to hear from you.



BTW, Curator, got no PM from you. Could that be because of your rectal disorder? Or your partially digested cabbage that's causing you all of that asshole putty grief?

Attention please!

The Curator is now officially the second biggest Jew hater here.

And that is offical.

Hey Curator. How's it feel to be known as an anti-semitic bigot who is a Nazi? Get ready.

When this thread gets closed, I think I will start it over with the same truthful article about anti-semitism and the left.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Benjamin
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:12 PM

I actually think you are the biggest Jew Hater here, Mark

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:30 PM

What a riot. LOL

Who's Mark? Or Marc? Interestingly, Benjamin is my oldest son's name and I know you are not him. I believe this Guest who is TRYING to torment me is really Ron Davies.

OK, I'll fess up. My first name is really Waylon.

I'll say a prayer for you, moron goy at services Friday night. I'll mention your name when they sing Mishe Abera for your disease of the brain.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Benjamin
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:50 PM

With a heart like yours, Mark, you could not be a good musician. You do not even like music, my friend.
There is too much pain and bitterness in your demeanour that it almost entirely overshadows any empathic qualities you might have; qualities which are essential in appreciating the expressions of the soul.

You do the two guitars that you hold in so much reverence no good advertisement, and you do our people no favors by your filthy and vicious tongue

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:53 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Good, I got to you, moron. Fuck off.

Thanks for the fun, [bleep] (for antisocial behavior)douche.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:03 PM

There is an old saying to the effect that if you go looking for trouble, you're bound to find it, Martin. Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Benjamin
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 12:07 AM

... and we'll get to you...

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 12:09 AM

I think we have already.

He is notably shocked by the replies he has received here

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Bobby George
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 12:10 AM

Waaaaan Hannnnndreddddd and eightttttttttttttttttttty

Good Darts

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 04:33 AM

Folks I think it would be best for everyone if we starved this problem child. I did receive a pm from him on Tuesday night. Actually he was quite pleasant. He said he enjoyed winding sado's up. And that the site has more nuts than his grandaddy's tool box. He wanted to know where I obtained my information, he blamed the site and also blamed a Mudcat member, who I will not name. Neither which is true. I know on occasions my own viewpoints are not to everyones pleasing, but we work it out in the end through debate. And regarding his strong viewpoints on semitism, lets just say these are not entirely true. Marc this is not a breach of confidentially, enough is enough when it comes down to insulting people, especially ladies. And no, as you said on Tuesday nights pm I will never take personal offence.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 04:52 AM

Your pro IRA murder threads should be starved too Curator.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 05:00 AM

Sorry Guest,If individuals such as yourself go out to cast discreditations against the movement I won't remain silent.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 06:39 AM

Curator,

your stalking and thinly veiled threats are every bit as dispicable and antisocial as Martin's foul mouth rantings and quasi randomly hurled insults.

Your methods may find approval or even apprehensive respect in your local culture but in the outside world you will only meet contempt.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 06:58 AM

Who put you in the adjudicator's seat, Wolfgang?

And why do you think your 'judgement' on everything is the proper one?

You are as bad (if not worse) that those you sometimes chide.

If you have never lived in 'the culture', you cannot possibly know who would respect what, and in what particular circumstance.

You are as much an onlooker as the next person, Wolfgang, in most instances, I would say. So please do not pretend as you are in possession of any more, particularly worthwhile, degree of insight.

Be an expert on your own culture, if you must.

Don't ever presume to be an expert on ours

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:02 AM

That's great Wolfgang. Thank's for your valid and learned observation.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:08 AM

... and when the subject gets around to the growing rise of cannibalism in Germany again, I'll hang on your every syllable...

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:10 AM

Delete button time

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:16 AM

Wolfgang, are you familiar of the aphorism about how it is unwise to wrestle with a pig?

You will get muddy
And besides, the pig enjoys it!

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:19 AM

Been there, robomatic?

You seem to speak with authority

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Flamenco Ted
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:22 AM

Well said Wolfgang!

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:25 AM

... another onlooker

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:03 AM

Hey Turd Hoghain.....in YOUR opinion

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:15 AM

A Brit?

We whipped their asses, sure.

What the fuck would they know, except how to lose a fucking Empire.

Don't make me larf

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Tir Eoghain
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:22 AM

What am I saying? Eire has done fuck all ever in it's entire history.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:31 AM

Are the Sinn Fein/IRA/criminal/robber apologists known here as Curator and GUEST Tir Eoghain the same person? It certainly looks like it.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:42 AM

Only murdering bastards here are the Brits.

Fat lot of use all that fucking sacrifice, eh?

Bombing campaigns work, God bless them

See if you can get a Good Friday Agreement with Al Q

Curator is not me

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:44 AM

And Guest Tir Eoghain?

Learn to fucking spell Irish properly

There's a fada over the 'i'

Fucking dimwit Brit

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Turd Eoghain
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:05 AM

Yes us Brits can always rely on you Irish in a crisis eh? Just like the second world war where you acttively plotted against us with Germany. We need you treacherous lot like a hole in the head!

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:06 AM

Three cheers for the curator for the ultimate chain yank. Now maybe marc will run on and play with the traffic. Commiserations to all those who fell for him hook, line and sinker. And special congratulations to carol c for maintaining her dignity throughout.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:40 AM

Within the country of Israel there is no physical segregation according to language or ethnic origin I would know of. That's why I see nothing meriting the name Apartheid there.

Wolfgang, the apartheid is happening in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and the government of Israel is the entity that is causing it to happen with the use of their military and the settlements. This is the part that some of us call "Palestine", and that many others call "Greater Israel" (or Judea and Samaria). And that is the part that people have been criticizing... Archbishop Tutu among them. If you don't even know what region of the Middle East we are talking about, maybe you need to become a bit more informed about it before weighing in with your opinions about people like Archbishop Tutu.

My apologies if anyone else has already made this point. I don't have time to read the whole thread just now.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:40 AM

ps : Up the 'ra. Still making eejits of you.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:47 AM

I don't have time to read the whole thread just now. (Carol)

But you really should have taken the time to read the post you are pretending to respond to.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:55 AM

And this is for you, GUEST, 20 Apr 05 - 01:01 PM. That big lie that the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are teaching and inciting hatred of Jews and of Israel in their textbooks has been exposed as the big lie that it is. Your use of Lebanon to prove a point about the people of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem is about on the same level as blaming the People of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem for the information found in incorrect translations of Egyptian and Jordanian textbooks.

http://www.newprofile.org/showdata.asp?pid=704&language=en

"Palestinian textbooks contain incitement to hatred of Israel, right? Both President George W. Bush and President Bill Clinton have said so. Zionist groups constantly lobby European foreign ministries to stop support for Palestinian textbooks on that basis, and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon affirmed it at a recent Likud party meeting.

Detailed analyses of the textbooks have been done by research institutes. The U.S. Consulate General in Jerusalem commissioned studies from the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information (IPCRI), and in Europe the Georg Eckert Institute facilitated research. Research papers have also been published in international fora such as the Hebrew University's Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace, the Palestine-Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture, and presented at the Oslo Coalition on Freedom of Religion or Belief.

At the political level, a U.S. Senate subcommittee on Palestinian education and the Political Committee of the European Parliament have both held hearings on the matter. No country's textbooks have been subjected to as much close scrutiny as the Palestinian.

The findings? It turns out that the original allegations were based on Egyptian or Jordanian textbooks and incorrect translations. Time and again, independently of each other, researchers find no incitement to hatred in the Palestinian textbooks.

The European Union has issued a statement that the new textbooks are free of inciting content and the allegations were unfounded. The IPCRI 2003 report states that the overall orientation of the curriculum is peaceful and does not incite to hatred or violence against Israel and the Jews, and the 2004 report states that there are no signs of promoting hatred toward Israel, Judaism or Zionism, nor toward the Western Judeo-Christian tradition or values.

Yet Sharon now claims that the Palestinian textbooks are a greater threat than terrorism. If that is so, education for peace and conflict resolution has become the greatest threat to Israel. Maybe it is: What little independent research has been done on Israeli textbooks, together with the recent New Profile report on the militarization of the Israeli education system, gives grounds for serious concern about what is happening to future generations on that side of the wall. Peace might feel threatening to a war-ingrained identity."

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 12:03 PM

(1) Within the country of Israel there is no physical segregation according to language or ethnic origin I would know of. That's why I see nothing meriting the name Apartheid there.

Already addressed this one.

(2) A wall between countries can be called a lot of things (as I know from my own country) but I have never heard the term Apartheid used for that.

The wall is not going up between countries. It is snaking all through the inside of the West Bank, and is cutting off large chunks of the West Banks from the people who live there. That is the problem. If the wall was going up between the West Bank and Israel, I would be all for it.

(3) If the winner of a war takes territories not formerly being part of her country that can be called many names, in the case of Israel I'd call it stupid and some other names, but I have not yet heard that taking over of a part of a country being called Apartheid.

It is apartheid when that part has been divided between areas where Jews can go, but Palestinians cannot, and other areas where both Jews and Palestinians can go. This is the situation in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.

South Africa was a country segregating within its own boundaries and planning to 'source out' some pieces of SA with a part (a particular part) of its own population. Israel is a country that after having won a war has (stupidly, I repeat) annected some parts of other countries, treats these parts as its own territory and builds a wall to prevent people from neighbouring countries/territories entering Israel without permission.

The government of Isreal has created segregation within the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.

If one swallows the Hamas propaganda unthinkingly then the whole country is still 'Palestine' with some Jews living in there. From that point of view, they call it 'Apartheid', for they do not want to have an Israel in the whole of 'Palestine' at all.

Yes, this is true, but it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion of Archbishop Tutu's quote which refers to the segregation that has been enforced by the government of Israel within the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem between the local Palestinian population and the "Jewish only" areas which divide the areas where the Palestinians are allowed to go into tiny bantustans, just like in South Africa.

My earlier comment still stands.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 12:13 PM

I will repeat myself and ask GUEST to state proof that the Provisional movement was involved with the robbery he refers to.Can we get back to the original thread, this is not about me or the Provisional movement and there is no post where I make anti semitic remarks. As to the posts from ex and serving British soldiers, what's your stance on the original thread ? maybe someone from the jewish community will remind you of the role of the British against these people, or is that in the forget box ? I repeat this thread is not about me or the Republican movement.You hold your viewpoint I hold mine. If you want to debate us, that's another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 04:01 PM

Wolfgang, you should consider with care what Gobson habitually says and does before you condemn those who use words against him.

Cartoon Irishman, you do the Irish as much disservice as Gobson does his own race.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 04:11 PM

Arnhem was also a Bridge too far.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Moses
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 05:02 PM

I rest my case.

By the way, if Martin Gibson thinks that this website is full of nuts, then why does he spend so much time here? Is he a squirrel? Squirrely, we all know that, but just what species is he really?

Martin, Martin, Martin (or is it Marc?), is what you are doing here a fit occupation for a nice Jewish boy?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 05:15 PM

" rosenmutter" can't be Martin...he once posted that his real name is ******** *. ************, and it don't quite fit, you see? You know he wouldn't mislead us.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 05:21 PM

99% of what he posted was ficticious. The bitterness was real. The rest is history. Well done to the fools who pm'd him as martin gibson. Sometimes it is preferable to live in a world where you aren't so desperate for acceptance by EVERYONE.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 06:22 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Hey douche bags, especially you Shanty Irish Curator.

Been so busy with work finally checking in.

Curator, proper etiqutte here is to keep PMs private. You are the biggest homo pervert on this board and a liar completely. I am so glad that us Jews use Irish of your type as cleaning ladies.

I wouldn't bother PMing you for anything unless there was some way I could shit on your face that way.


Bridge, Jews are not a "race" go back to fucking one of your clients.

Guest, shame about that dingleberry you can't remove. Ha Ha! I take you about as serious as you take the ring around Uranus.

Guest, Moses. Yep it's as fit as I want it to be. Watching phony liberal goys writhe and howl is the same you did to the Egyptians. Go eat some manna.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 06:29 PM

Anti-Semitism is beginning to sound pretty good to me.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 06:33 PM

No it isn't, Ebbie, and we should never, ever say that.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Moses
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:14 PM

It is very likely that "Martin Gibson" is a member of the Ku Klux Klan or the American Nazi Party and is only claiming to be a Jew in hopes of getting people to associate his behavior here with Judaism.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:22 PM

What "Martin Gibson" calls anti-Semitism is really just a lack of subservience from people to whom he feels superior. Real anti-Semitism... the hatred of Jews and/or prejudice against Jews because they are Jewish is not the same thing at all, and is the cause of a lot of pain and suffering. It's not a joking matter.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:15 PM

You can hid behind that crap CarolC, but very few buy it after all of the Israel bashing you have done here.

Detractors, howl all you want. You will never meet a prouder Jew than I am. Besides, at this point it's obvious you are so worked up, you will say anything.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:35 PM

Clear case of transference, CarolC...

You hit a nerve...

Good shot, and you are absolutely correct!!!

Thre only god that Martin worships is George Bush...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:50 PM

The only thing I worship bobert is God.
[bleep - for antisocial behavior]
The only thing I believe you worship is your anal pore.

That popping sound is your head coming out of your ass.

No one hits a nerve with me bobert. Unless of course you insult my family which some here stooped to. I'm digging on this. It's bringing Mudcat down to the new low I knew it was capable of with the birdbrain cast of characters here. The sensible ones I just seem to get along with fine, but morons like yourself are the worst the far left have to offer and it's showing like a neon light in the desert.

Like I said, at this point, you guys will say anything because there's nothing else you are capable of saying. At this point, the liberal Mudcat faction is severely cracked and damaged and perhaps I am not through yet.

It's just so easy making you look so foolish, bobert. Keep it up. Your desperation is pretty entertaining.

I think you find it really hard to believe how much support that I continue to get here. Deal with it, pal.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:12 PM

Martin - The only kind of support for you that I have seen is from people that care about you as a human being. As to your claim that if you are critical of Israeli politics you are also anti-semitic, I have read no supporting statements.

In fact, Martin, most people think you are a bad actor.

I, for one, do not believe that you are anything you claim to be.

You are mostly a person who, for lack of positive approval, thrives on negative attention. Seek help before your anti-social personality disorder follows you into adult life. You can be helped.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:16 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]And dianavan, you can come to America and live a better life if you want to.

Extra wide tampons are in much better supply here I am told.

Christ, if only you could see the PMs I get.

And no, I was never a good actor. I'm too bluntly honest.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:21 PM

Polymorphorse perverse guilt, Martin... Ask yer shrink about it? Might save you some future couch bucks in his office...

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:34 PM

.... 'er her office but might be tougher fir ya' to talk about???

BYW, is yer shrink a guy or gal???

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Just another Pinko
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 12:49 AM

We can only hope that you really are Mark Rosenmutter. Otherwise, you've brought a lot of tsuris down on some poor shmuck in Evanston. ÊYis'ga'dal v'yis'kadash sh'may ra'bbo...and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 02:08 AM

Cartoon, Shanty, whatever you want to call us, Bridge.

Sticks and stones, eh?
Bullets and bombs do the REAL damage, Richie.

It is one thing your Nationalistic pride could never handle.
That you could NEVER subdue the Irish.

Call us what you want after that. You could never even lose a football match Dickie, with any sort of grace, for Chrissakes.

English people are the gombeens of the World, Dick
The only thing half of you can say when abroad is "If it wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German.

Well, Dick, If it wasn't for us, you wouldn't have got manners slapped on to ye.
For that you can be eternally grateful to the 'Cartoon, Shanty' Irish.

I hope your cleaning woman robs you blind, Mark.
My sister has a cleaning lady from Rishon Le Ziyyon, and she thinks she's a lovely woman.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 03:07 AM

Gee - Guest Tir,

I was beginning to enjoy your tirade until you called English people the gombeens of the world.

I have no respect for the politics of Britain, but there are people from many nations who are gombeens. When you resort to stereotypes and name calling, you put yourself in the same category as MG.

I'm glad you slapped some manners on the Brits and I just wish someone would slap some manners on Bush. Are you up to the task? Somebody has to do it?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 03:16 AM

Some of them are, Dianavan.
If they wish to generalise about us, I am happy to do the same.

Putting manners on Bush?
Wars COME to nations, Diana.

How many Irish in America?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 03:42 AM

Tir eggonface,

" The ammorarilty of Irish wartime neutrality was summed up by de Valera's infamous visit to the German Ambassador in Dublin in april 1945 to present his condolences on the death of Hitler"
               by Geoffrey Robert in The Irish Times 4th june 2004.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 03:43 AM

sorry, that should read 24th june 2004.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 03:56 AM

True enough. Maybe you could teach the Iraqis to slap some manners on the U.S. Hey, maybe they don't need your help after all. They seem to be doing a pretty job of it at present. Only trouble is, many people seem to think that the 'insurgents' are targetting food convoys and civilians when, in fact, they are targetting the police, the military, the multi-nationals and the newly formed 'govt'.

Another problem is that the U.S. is also controlling the media and when they can't control the journalists, they just shoot them.

I know there are many Irish in America but that doesn't seem to be helping to end the situation in Iraq.

Come to think of it...MG, like many Jews in America, lend alot of support to Israel much like the Irish in America supported the I.R.A. Now there is an interesting parallel!

So how does a nation end a war and find peace and prosperity for the people? Seems to me that Britain only backed off of Ireland once they had depleted all of the natural resources. Will it be the same in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 04:08 AM

Cartoon Irish and Gobson seem to have a lot in common - both determined to make the inertial observer despise those they claim to represent. Maybe we should put them in a room together and walk away. Whichever of them lost, the world would be a better place.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,dumb irish twat
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 04:32 AM

"Oh no we've run out of potatoes to feed the chickens"

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 07:26 AM

Mr. Rosenmutter ("Martin")--

Just ran across this.

Sorry, Mark (or Mr. Rosenmutter) AKA "Martin".--- It ain't me babe. I said-a-no-no-no it ain't me babe. It ain't me you're lookin' for, babe. (20 April 9:30 PM).


As you should have learned by now, there's more than one articulate person on Mudcat who is perhaps not your biggest fan (sorry to have to break it to you). Consider, most recently, Benjamin.

Even a Guest can be articulate. Nice try though.

Should I be flattered, Mark, by the fact that you see me in every shadow? No, actually it's plain you're a pathetic individual who needs treatment.   Please, get it soon.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 07:50 AM

Cool it lads and lasses, Marc sent another pm to me, not just as nice as the one on Tuesday night, he really is extracting the urine. As to Richard (Arnhem) Bridge, why are you coming at me here ? If you want to lock horns, no problem I am up to it.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Vinny Victim
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 08:02 AM

An irishman and a jew walked into a bar, the rest they say is bad grapes

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 08:12 AM

Interesting

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 08:19 AM

Tony Clifton was Andy Kaufman's alter-ego

Or was Andy Kaufman, Tony Clifton's

Is Rosenmutt's name in that list?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Rabbi
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 08:20 AM

Prayer for Gibson from his Rabbi

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Torctgyd
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 08:44 AM

Guest Allen,

An interesting site on the Khazars.

I was reminded of a study by statisticians who calculated that everyone alive today has a common ancester alive about 2,300 - 2,500 years ago. Therefore everyone in the world today has a semitic ancestor! Everyone who was alive then is either related to everyone who is alive now or is not related to anyone alive today.

I will conceed your point about the meaning of anti-semitism although whoever coined it didn't do a very good job due to its lack of clarity. However the arguments put forward for the definition of anti-semitism fall down with the word anti-semitic. This definitely means against semites and not specific to Jews. (The argument being there is no word semitism so anti-semitism means what the coiner meant it to mean. This is not true of anti-semitic as Hebrew and Arabic, for example, are both semitic languages. So anti-semitic and anti-semitism cannot both be only anti-Jewish).

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:14 AM

Picture explains why Gibson is such an expert on excrement

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:23 AM

Is it not clear to you that Rosenmutter putz in drech thrives on this stuff??? Why do you keep feeding him? You are beginning to look as silly as he is sick. Between you folks feeding him, and Offer feeding Shambles, I don't hold much hope for a return to any type of civility on the Mudcat.

Shame, really.

Mick

Subject: A Poem to the NEW Antisemetism
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:29 AM

White bread and mayonnaise
'Public Relations' by E. Bernaise
became food and bible for ol' Joseph Goebbles
so people would not have to think.

Instinct and dirty desires
fuel the sleazy TV fires
of shocking abhorrent naked titties while think tanks endlessly repeat their ditties
the rotting corpses lose their stink.

The Republican religious revival
has no Congressional rival
as reported on FOX what's Gored is our ox
whew the Nazis were so rinky dink.

Now their eyes fill with elation
as they view a similar equation
of Final solutions and AIDs evolution
cheering death except for abortion.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 01:31 PM

mick , marc made personal attack after personal attack on carol, ebbie, dianavan and others. They were left to remain. That set the tone. Those who chose not to delete them are in no position to tell us how to post.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 01:47 PM

An eye for eye leaves a person half blind.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 03:12 PM

What a riot that you call me this poor guy Rosenmutter.

I'm not him!   I don't live in Evanston.
[bleep - for antisocial behavior]
Davies you are so desparate to put a real name to me you will use ANYthing. What a pathetic moron you are.   What a complete and total asshole you are.

You know what Davies? I think your real name is really Dick Gozinia. so, Dick quit using the name Ron Davies to hide behind because you are obviously Dick Gozinia.

this is hilarious.

The Mudcat anti-semitism continues to pour out from the moron left like Ron (Dick Gozinia) Davies, bobert, and the usual phony Guests.

Richard Bridge is anothe Brit who's has a problem with the Jewish "race" as he calls them.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 03:13 PM

Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program
Written by Jeremy Robb
Monday, January 06, 2003


       Several months ago, I heard radio host Michael Savage refer to liberalism as a "mental disorder." As odd as this concept might seem, I think I actually agree with him. I've seen liberalism turn some of the most intelligent people I know into propaganda-spewing robots who care only about the message, not the inaccuracies behind the message. Emotion always trumps logic for them, regardless of the blatantly obvious.



       Given the difficulty in bringing liberals into the light, I thought it might be helpful to provide them with a 12-step program that could make it easier for a successful transition into reality. As conservatives, we have to remember that we can only be supportive to liberals in this program. They cannot do it alone, but we also cannot do it for them.



The Program:

Click

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 04:53 PM

Michael Savage is a mental disorder.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 04:57 PM

Martin Gibson's pick up truck

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/crystalnacht.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 05:16 PM

Sorry, moron. Have a Lexus because I work for a living.

Michael Savage is actually pretty entertaining. I don't agree with him on everything but he has some good ideas on why liberalism has been ruining America.

I understand he has a new best seller out on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 05:24 PM

I think his whole act is an attempt to make Anne Coulter notice him.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:03 PM

Mark "Martin"--


Anti-Semitism--as from Benjamin, Art Thieme.....or me.

I challenge you to find one anti-Semitic remark from any of the above---as distinguished from( richly deserved) criticism of you---you were aware there is a difference, weren't you?

Perhaps somebody needs to explain it to you, in short words, so you might understand
it. If you can't find anybody else, I'll be glad to do the honors.

Benjamin put it perfectly:

"You do the two guitars that you hold in so much reverence no good advertisement, and you do our people no favors by your filthy and vicious tongue".

I couldn't have said it better.



But I assure you that in fact I'm not in every shadow--you don't have to be afraid.

Sweet dreams.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 12:38 PM

Curator, I was not initially criticising you as cartoon Irish, but Tír Eoghain (I cut and pasted the name but the accent does not seem to have come out correctly) who for no obvious reason suddenly started an anti-Brit rant. You posted while I was composing so I can see why it looked as if I was coming back at you. I accept that Cromwell's conquering of Ireland was unjustified, and also that the English committed atrocities in Ireland, but I don't find the methods used to re-create an independent Irish state or to attack the legitimate government of Northern Ireland acceptable.

However, you then started so I returned fire when I could be bothered.

White Hat! (Not white flag).



Gobson, since I was born in Stanmore, educated near North London, and became an entertainment lawyer, I have (obviously) grown up and worked closely with many Jews. From time to time in various situations I have been the religious (or irreligious) minority, and they the majority. I take entirely as I find, and my daughter's first name is a Jewish name. I have no prejudice against Jews (who, incidentally, are a "race" for the purposes of the Race Relations Act), nor against any other race or religion and I don't really see much importance for the inertial observer whether Jews in general prefer to see themselves as a race or a religion. You are the only Jew I have ever heard fuss about the distinction, and certainly one of my friends used to make a big (jocular) thing about her genes being the basis of a real need, any time she wanted to steal the pickle out of my sandwich.

What I do find foolish is the flinging of the charge of racism every time it is suggested that facts might be checked or that Israel or some particular person or persons who are Jewish (by religion or descent) (or any other grouping, come to that) might deserve criticism.

Gobson, you sully everything you endorse.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:04 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]My bullshit detector lights up bbright red when I read posts by Dick Gozinia Davies or Richard Bridge.

I was waiting for the "some of my best friends are Jewish" testimonial from you Bridge.

BTW, for the most part, we are generally caucasian. But not always.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Raedwulf
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:41 PM

Everyone else's bullshit detector lights up practically every time you post, Martin. You are so full of shit, you're just about a recycling industry on your own.

You are not a Jew... These article were written by renegades...

And there we have it. If you're not Jewish, you have no right to have an opinion about Jews (funnily enough, this doesn't stop the loudly self-proclaimed Jew, Martin Gibson, having opinions about everyone else); if you are a Jew but don't agree with Martin's point of view you're a renegade.

Isn't the world a wonderful place? You can be sure of exactly where you stand. You're either Jewish & with Martin (in which case you're right), or you're not (in which case you're wrong).

And now, no doubt, I will be called a Nazi again, because Martin likes that word & is always right...

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:49 PM

Yep, Raedwulf. You are a nazi and I am right about this.

Happy Passover.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Raedwulf
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 04:45 PM

No, Martin, you're excrement as always. And please explain how you justify having opinions about non-Jews when you are so adamant that no non-Jew can have a valid opinion about Jews. Are you a two-faced hypocritical twat? Or do you, perchance, have some smug self-justifying piece of worthless cant that you imagine excuses you from everything that you accuse everyone else of?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 08:24 AM

Re: my post of 18 April mentioning the chemist who influenced the issuing of His Majesty's Government of "The Balfour Declaration". That was Chaim Weizman, who enabled the English to produce badly needed acetone in militarily significant quantities. Weizman went on to become the first President of the State Of Israel. His nephew, Ezer Weizman, a hero of the 1967 War and himself a past President of the State Of Israel, has just passed away.

His obituary which contains a lot of interesting information about Israeli history, appears in the New York Times here .

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 08:31 AM

I'm tired of the obvious sexist orientation of this whole thread. About time we heard more about Uncle Semitism, the real threat.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 03:45 PM

Raedwuld said: "No, Martin, you're excrement as always"

Gee, another personal attack allowed by Joe Offer.

Raedwulf, your whole dna is made of excrement from a wild African boar.

I'm not at all claiming I know what non-Jews think. It is though pretty obvious what radical left wingers think, as represented by the article I posted and the support that it's theories are getting here.

---

Maybe so, Martin. Tell you what - I'll be a nice guy and not delete this reply to Raedwulf.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 06:23 PM

Interesting article, robomatic.

But in 1981, in "The Battle for Peace," Mr. Weizman vigorously defended the compromises Israel made at Camp David, and sympathetically reported Mr. Sadat's assertion there that the West Bank and Gaza belonged not to Jordan or Israel but to their Palestinian inhabitants.

On this, President Weizman and I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 07:29 PM

Carol:
What made Weizman and Rabin so significant is they witnessed the worst of war and were willing to modify their original beliefs and courses of action. We need more Israelis like that, and we need some Arabs like that, not just the Palestinian Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 08:30 PM

I can point you to various rocks where Arabs of this type might be under. Too bad they are scared shitless.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 08:58 PM

As I said on another thread--"Martin"-it is wonderful how you are uniting people from all over the world.

Raedwulf, me, Foolestroupe, Bobert, Richard Bridge, Don Firth, Benjamin, Ebbie--the list seems to go on forever--we all feel the same about you--"Martin Gibson" (one individual).

It's truly heartwarming.

I suspect I can speak for a whole host of Mudcatters when I say (yet again):

You need treatment. Please get it---soon.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:04 AM

Marc is probably too shy to let you all know that it's his birthday on the 4th May. If any of you can make it to Somerset County I am sure he'd love to see you. Don't forget the posts on that day folks, and please nothing nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 11:40 AM

Wolfgang, you should consider with care what Gobson habitually says and does before you condemn those who use words against him. (Richard Bridge)

Richard,

(1) You seem to make the assumption that I have not or if I had I would have posted differently. You're wrong.
(2) I have never condemned those who have used words against him. Martin Gibson has worked hard to merit each bit of verbal abuse. I have condemned what I consider as physical threats and stalking.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 02:35 PM

I wonder how anyone could ever pick you up wrong Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 03:22 PM

Now Marc don't be shy, it is your birthday on the 4th, and as to your friends here I do hope I'm one ?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 05:58 PM

My birthday is in January, curator, my name is not Marc and if it was, I would not spell it that way, and no, I would not consider you a friend and you know why. so do others here, as you well know.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:05 PM

Now Marc, what way is that for a birthday boy to talk.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 06:26 PM

I suggest, Wolfgang, you have not considered the hints, the subtexts, of both violence and sexual violence inherent in much of what Gobson posts.

And no, I am not going to refresh my memory of his vile outpourings.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 11:42 AM

Nothing new. I rest my case.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 02:13 PM

I see Wolfgang. One rule for MG, another for the rest. Does that sound familiar or what?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 02:45 PM

Bridge, I love being inside your head.

absolutely love it.

get off wolfgang's case. He's got you pegged and so do I.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:17 PM

Richard, nice to see these two nestled up together, I'm sure your not a lover of Irish sayings, but there is a couple that comes to mind for Wolfie and Marc, SHOW ME YOUR COMPANY AND I WILL TELL YOU WHAT YOU ARE. DOGS THAT SHARE A BASKET SHARE THE FLEAS. A FOOL IS ALWAYS LEAD BY A FOOL. AS WELCOMING AS A GERMAN TO A JEW.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:22 PM

Wolfgang is an all right German in my book.

Curator, your Nazi heritage always seems to come through in your posts. You might just be the biggest Jew hater here, and that takes some doing. But you are sure contending for number one.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:36 PM

Nazi heritage Marc? now you above all people know my views on this subject from our cosy posts, I do not dislike the Jewish race. Are you going to dance all night with your hand on Wolfgangs ass, or maybe you could get to the point.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:50 PM

Jews are not a race, Curator. they are a religion.

But Nazis like yourself also thought that they were a race, didn't they?

One thing about you, Curator. You are not the "New" anti-semitism. Just the same old kind down through the ages.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:00 PM

Now Marc, and I thought we were friends ? What has happened to that friendly chap that told me about his family, profession and interest's in life.I couldn't have offended you.After all you were the one who said my mp's to you were an insight. What's the problem ? Sorry for referring to the Jews as a race, are we mates again Marc ????

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:09 PM

Please keep your mouths closed if you're going to kiss and makeup.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:42 PM

He wants Wolfgang more than me, how would feel ?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 04:21 PM

Now Marc, you were the one who said he had a charm to cure piles!

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 04:27 PM

He cured himself ??

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 08:20 PM

This thread I remind everyone is about the New anti-semitism.

Please re read the article.

Thanks.