BS: The New Anti-semitism

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:52 PM

No it isn't, Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM

And it's not just Tutu, either. It's also some of the same members of the Jewish community in South Africa who opposed apartheid there who are making that comparison:

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0516-01.htm

FOR YEARS, critics have compared Israeli policies in the occupied territories to the old South African apartheid system. Now more mainstream figures � such as Zbigniew Brzezinski, the Canadian-born former U.S. National Security Adviser, and South African anti-apartheid stalwarts Bishop Desmond Tutu and author Breyten Breytenbach � are drawing the parallel. Members of the 80,000-strong Jewish community in South Africa have joined the debate as well.

Not In My Name, a declaration written by two leading Jewish anti-apartheid activists, Ronnie Kasrils and Max Ozinksi, and signed by 220 Jews, acknowledges Israeli security concerns but, as reported in The Guardian newspaper, adds:

"It becomes difficult, from a South African perspective, not to draw parallels with the oppression expressed by Palestinians under the hand of Israel and the oppression experienced in South Africa under apartheid rule."

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:24 PM

It's really CarolC in a tutu.

Max Ozinski is a radical Jew and far from anything mainstream. You will always get these types of radicals who are off the wall when it comes to what is the popular opinion. Sort of like the diseased minds of the radical left found at Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:37 PM

Your contention about the land being reserved for Jews equaling apartheid is rot. It's rather a lot more complicated than that.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:45 PM

Max Ozinski is a radical Jew and far from anything mainstream. You will always get these types of radicals who are off the wall when it comes to what is the popular opinion.

That's exactly the same sort of thing they said about Dr. Martin Luther King (except for the Jewish part). But even despite those kinds of ad-hominem attacks, he was still right.

It's "these types of radicals" who create change that brings with it social justice. You can be proud to know that there have been many Jews in the forefront of this kind of work for social justice.

However, in this context, Martin Gibson, you are the equivalent of the white racist in the US south who fought so hard against ending segregation and institutionalized racism. And you've even obliquely threatened me with a lynching with that comment about me and the FBI. Showing your true colors there.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:46 PM

told you that you would catch on to CarolC Guest, Allen

Get ready for a series of links showing why it is not "rot" and why she believes in being anti-semetic and BIGOTED.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:48 PM

Are you saying, Allen that those roads and settlements are open to Palestinians?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:57 PM

But I agree that it is a lot more complicated than that. Perhaps you did not see the article I posted in that other thread that was from the source you, yourself cited as a reference in support of some of the things you were saying. Interestingly, what he says in this article pretty much exactly supports the things I was saying on that other thread that you were calling "rot" (or a similar word). If you're going to use him as a legitimate source for your own postings, you'll need to be willing to accept him as a source for mine as well. From Baruch Kimmerling:

The Politicide of Palestinian People by Baruch Kimmerling

"Because Ariel Sharon's latest, more moderate incarnation has been so warmly received by the Bush administration, the US media, and the American public, it is crucial to understand both the context of his transformation and the actual behavior of the Israeli government toward the Palestinian people. The general context is that the primary goal of the present government is the destruction of the Palestinian Authority and the dismantling of the Oslo Accords. This can only be defined as the politicide of the Palestinian people, a gradual but systematic attempt to cause their annihilation as an independent political and social entity.

For this reason, Ariel Sharon has skillfully used the brutal and indiscriminant forms of Palestinian resistance - especially the suicide bombers - to create a chain of mutually escalating responses in order to induce both the Israeli and international community to accept his goal. Using the fight against terrorism as a pretext, he aims to divide the Gaza Strip and West Bank into tiny enclaves rules by local strongmen while claiming he is supporting the "reformation" and "democratization" of the Palestinian authority.

The final aim is to continue the Jewish colonization of the so-called "Greater Land of Israel" until Israel's exclusive and non-reversible control of the territories has been attained. Some analysts suspect or hope that one outcome of this project is to make daily life so miserable for Palestinians that large numbers will emigrate from the territories' something that has, in fact, occurred during the last few years.

Sharon learned from the Lebanon fiasco that, while such policies must be implemented militarily, they must cause minimal casualties. Otherwise, both international agencies and public opinion could turn against them. To minimize Jewish casualties, it is necessary to deploy large, heavily armed forces and to use cruel techniques like razing whole neighborhoods. Resistance is met with heavy fire power, as was the case in Jenin.

The immediate aim of "Operation Defensive Shield" was to disarm "bases of terrorism" by capturing weapons and explosives and to "liquidate" or capture those involved in Palestinian armed resistance. In other words, the goal was to dismantle any Palestinian security forces, not only to hamper their ability to fight Israel, but to dissolve the internal authority of Arafat's regime as well. For the same reason, Israel security forces also assaulted most of the national and public infrastructure and institutions and even destroyed databases like the one used by the Palestinian Bureau of Statistic.

Additional goals of the incursions, sieges, and extra-judicial executions were to demonstrate Israeli military might and its willingness to use it and to prove to the Palestinians that there were defenseless against any wanton action. The Arab states barely paid lip service to the Palestinian cause, denouncing Israeli actions just enough to avoid internal unrest, apparently because they feared Israel was looking for a regional war. Such a war could distract the Israeli public from the severe economic and social crisis within Israel ( such as a high unemployment rate and the beginnings of hyperinflation) and serve as a cover for uprooting large numbers of Palestinians from the land, as happened during the 1948 war.

However, the international community, including the United States, will soon recognize that in an era during which every nation (including the Jewish and Palestinian nations) has the right to self-determination, politicide is a crime against humanity that is very close in its severity to genocide."

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:06 PM

Do you realise the reason why the roads aren't open?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:13 PM

Yes. Because there are settlers there who don't belong there. The settlers are there as a part of a military strategy that has one goal... for all of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem to be gone from there. The roads and settlements are there to make life so difficult and such a bloody hell for the Palestinians, they will leave because they won't be able to justify staying.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:45 PM

Oh, certainly. If you say so.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:53 PM

Guest, Allen you are there! You see argueing with this know it all wench in a tutu is worthless!

She knows everything! and we all know nothing!

And she would help Israel cease to exist if she could because she truly is their enemy.

Yes, carolC is the biggest on-going anti-Israel Jew hater on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:57 PM

I'm not at all clear how it is possible to argue that the situatioin in Israel/Palestine does not involve a kind of apartheid.

Perhaps it can be argued that there are factors involved which might make it a more justifiable or at leaast more historically understandable, form of apartheid, but that is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:58 PM

Oh, certainly. If you say so.

Yes. I do. And so does your man Baruch Kimmerling. And also several former members of the IDF and former members of other Israeli security services.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:59 PM

( ...former members of Shin Bet)

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:01 PM

Martin... I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance.I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance. I support Israel's existance.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:10 PM

Some of the most ridiculous lies I have heard. Tired of this argumentum ad infinitum (if not nauseaum).

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:14 PM

You're contradicting your own source, Allen? I guess that means that you are not credible either since you are the one who used him.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:26 PM

CarolC

I don't blieve you, you are a liar and a phony and a hater of Jews and Israel.

I don't blieve you, you are a liar and a phony and a hater of Jews and Israel.

I don't blieve you, you are a liar and a phony and a hater of Jews and Israel.

I don't blieve you, you are a liar and a phony and a hater of Jews and Israel.

I don't blieve you, you are a liar and a phony and a hater of Jews and Israel.

I don't blieve you, you are a liar and a phony and a hater of Jews and Israel.

The article is about you CarolC. You and your ilk.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:28 PM

Nice try, Martin. No cigar.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:30 PM

Hello Little Marty boy, (I know where you got the Martin Gibson name from)Why not use your real name ? Marty don't think for a second your pulling my chain, If this was true, we would find you, believe me.No FBI over here son. And as to CarolC, I still think shes a great. Still awaiting your best shot Marty boy,

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:34 PM

What source would that be then?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:36 PM

The Curator, although I appreciate you stepping up to the plate on my behalf, I hope you can understand that I can't support any threats, implied, veiled, or otherwise, against anyone. Not even someone like Martin Gibson.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:36 PM

Baruch Kimmerling, Allen. Have you not been reading my posts to this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:40 PM

Wasn't aware he was my own source.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:59 PM

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:00 PM

It is obvious that you are reading my posts, Martin, and I wish you would stop.

Yes, Allen. You used him as a source for quite a lot of information that you posted in the other thread about anti-Semitism. That's where I got the name from. I did a search on the name after you provided it, and I found that article from him. Here's is your post in which you provided the name (click on the link):

http://www.mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=1445374

This is what you said about it:

I pulled most of the 1834 information from a book called "Palestinians; The making of a People" by Baruch Kimmerling and Joel S. Migdal. You could always try and find more information on Ibrahim Pasha and his Muhamad Ali (that's where Clay took the name from) but there isn't much available.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Moses
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:05 PM

Just because you think someone is a complete asshole and the asshole just happens to be Jewish, that doesn't make you anti-Semitic.

But it does make a convenient whine for the asshole to hide behind.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:12 PM

I was using him as my source on Palestinian history, and the history of Palestinian nationalism, which he happens to be very good at. Doesn't mean I can't say I think he's talking rubbish on other matters.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:19 PM

Oh, really. Nice little tactic there, Allen. I guess I can just assume that everything you say is garbage, then.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:23 PM

Nice little tactic? Oh c'mon get real.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:29 PM

Sure looks like one to me.

When I have more time, I'll find those former IDF and Shin Bet people.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:34 PM

Didn't know I had to agree totaly with someone because I thought they wrote a good book.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:46 PM

It seems like if you say something is "rot" or "garbage", you expect us to accept that as fact, Allen. And you don't even provide any support for these ad hominem labels. And all you have is ad hominem arguments for any documentation or other support that others provide that you don't agree with. You have offered nothing of substance to this discussion... just a few terse, unsupported opinions and ad hominem responses.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:57 PM

You could be describing yourself, except you seem to use more words. Not much point in arguing with you, bit like trying to break down a brick wall with one's head, so I'll be terse and spare myself the typing. Goodnight, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:14 PM

No, Allen, I don't think so. I haven't called anything you've said "rot" or "garbage" or "complete and utter bs" as you have with me. When you have said something I disagreed with, I provided my own arguments and I backed my arguments up with documentation. If you're not up to that level of debate, I'll understand. But you can't accuse me of using your kind of tactics, because I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:16 PM

I am having fun with you.

So all that indignation is actually a fake, just designed to take the piss out of people who care about that stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:27 PM

mcGrath, you are another Brit the article I posted describes.

Definately and for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:38 PM

Ya know what?

Some of the Palestinians whoes houses are being bulldozed today by Isreali's have had several houses bulldozed in the past... This is imperialism and has nothing to do with religion...

Yeah, one can argue all day long that stealing other folks homes is being done in the name of God but...

... like whoes God you hearin'????

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:50 PM

Moses said it all - "Just because you think someone is a complete asshole and the asshole just happens to be Jewish, that doesn't make you anti-Semitic.

But it does make a convenient whine for the asshole to hide behind."

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 12:24 AM

Third rate country?

We could teach you cunts something about Conflict Resolution, anyway.

Bombing WORKS, Martin! Remember that!
Read the writing on the Wailing Wall, before some crazy bastard blows it, and your fucking dream of peaceful co-existence, to Kingdom Come.

You will retreat to the 67 borders before anything happens, so here's to the long haul, eh?

Chicago's a long way from the Front Line, Martin, and if there's one kind of person I always despised is the Armchair Activist kind.

[bleep] (for gratuitous vulgarity)Go fuck yourself, you worthless piece of dung, and don't worry about us and the Arabs.

Worry abut YOU and the Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,NoBiZ
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:51 AM

hang on a sec could someone pleaz explain to me what all this fuss about roads is cuz i ccant get any good explinations

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:06 AM

I'm still confused whether the person who started this thread is intending to be taken as a self-parodying made-up character (in the same way as Cletus), who is poking fun at those people who actually do go way over the top in discussions; or is he (or she) supposed to be for real?

To quote Art Thieme's post earlier once again:

In another thread you pretty much said, "this is only a forum" and not a place real enough to form actual community bonds between participants. Why, then, is it a place that's real enough for you to vent your venom and denigrate and slander real people who simply have different ways of seeing these sad events than you do?? Or are you just "having fun" in this thread too??

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:19 AM

Hello Marty boy, as promised I would get past your handle. Marc Aaron Rosenmutter meant anything ??? Your FBI wasn't that quick. I would ease off now, they really are taking you apart with their answers, you just en't up to it.
See you Aaron.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,p o neill
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:16 AM

Marc Aaron Rosenmutter (AKA Marty Boy),
the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in the Hague, despite intense pressure from Israel, the US and the EU Governments, sonfirms what Palestinians and the world have known since the beginning of its planning and construction - THE WALL IS ILLEGAL!
Citing the right to Self-Determination, the Fourth Geneva Convention, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, relevant human rights and humanitarian law, as well as the Rights to Freedom of Movemnent, Work, Education, Health, Food and Water, Religion and the Right of the Child, the ICJ voted 14-1 that "constructuon of the wall and its associated regieme are contrary to international law and that Israel must immediately cease construction of the wall in all areas, dismantle parts already built and repeal any legislation or regulation relating to the Wall, make reparations for damages caused by construction of the Wall."

Ref: Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign www.ipsc.ie
www.stop the wall.org

(PENGON) Anti-apartheid Wall Campaign

Marty, i think we have all made our point on this thread.
Sorry to disappoint you,
p.s how's the armchair?

p o neill

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:33 AM

P O'Neill is an interesting handle. That's the pen name of official statements of the IRA. Is that meant as the threat it looks as the first glance?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Rouge et Noir
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:37 AM

A joker with no life

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Sean North
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:49 AM

Is the wall itself wrong or just the route

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 11:15 AM

I'm not at all clear how it is possible to argue that the situatioin in Israel/Palestine does not involve a kind of apartheid. (McGrath)

(1) Within the country of Israel there is no physical segregation according to language or ethnic origin I would know of. That's why I see nothing meriting the name Apartheid there.
(2) A wall between countries can be called a lot of things (as I know from my own country) but I have never heard the term Apartheid used for that.
(3) If the winner of a war takes territories not formerly being part of her country that can be called many names, in the case of Israel I'd call it stupid and some other names, but I have not yet heard that taking over of a part of a country being called Apartheid.

South Africa was a country segregating within its own boundaries and planning to 'source out' some pieces of SA with a part (a particular part) of its own population. Israel is a country that after having won a war has (stupidly, I repeat) annected some parts of other countries, treats these parts as its own territory and builds a wall to prevent people from neighbouring countries/territories entering Israel without permission.

If one swallows the Hamas propaganda unthinkingly then the whole country is still 'Palestine' with some Jews living in there. From that point of view, they call it 'Apartheid', for they do not want to have an Israel in the whole of 'Palestine' at all.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Limey bastard
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 11:49 AM

Leave Gibson alone. You should not care if he is a Jewish homosexual. All creatures great and what not.