BS: The New Anti-semitism

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:04 PM

No, what it's a very clever manipulation that's what. The Waqf very deliberately seized upon it and blew it out of all proportions. Makes a very convenient excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:05 PM

That's right Carol because then you'd be accused of making an ad hominem attack!

Precisely, robomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:13 PM

No bobert, it is you who are ignorant and very unkowledgable about many things, especially about Israel and Jews. You and the radical left are the Jew haters and Israel's enemy. calling me Hitler means nothing to me. It shows how what you will resort to when your little pee ppe is exposed for what you really are. It just shows how you completely explode when your dear precious radical left is exposed for what it is.

And fyi, can you really, really prove I voted for Bush. No you can't, and it's possible I just voted against Kerry, who would be Israel's and probably the U.S.'s downfall You are carrying on like the raving left wing lunatic and USA hater that you are. Your quantity and lack of quality of anti-American threads you have started speaks volumes.

Don't come to Chicago, bobert. Your mouth and attitude will expose you immediately amongst reasonable thinking people. We have the second biggest Jewish community here in America.

It is and has emerged that the left is way too anti-Israel to not also be anti-Jewish.

Deal with the fact that I consider you an enemy of the U.S. and of Israel. because you are.

Art, you are a Jew probably by birth. I dare to speak that you haven't practiced your religion or set foot in a shull for decades to under stand what "your people" think and relate to anymore.

Ebbie, the crux of the article is about anti-semitism hiding/lurking under the anti-Israel sentiments.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:14 PM

I was saying you need to be cautious when reading articles by her. It was not really a rebuttal or ad hominem attack. If you don't want to recognise that she is biased or extremist, that's no problem of mine.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-Semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:21 PM

Not every criticism of Israel is Anti-Semitism, but more than enough use it to rationalise their Anti-Semitism. There is a difference and that is what the link that Gibson posted is about.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:54 PM

Not every criticism of Israel is Anti-Semitism, but more than enough use it to rationalise their Anti-Semitism.

I agree with this completely. And, conversely, there are more than enough people who use the charge of anti-Semitism (as well as "self-hating Jew", and "not Jewish enough") as a way of trying to stifle legitimate discussion on the subject of Israel, regardless of whether or not the people being so charged are actually anti-Semites. That is what Martin Gibson does.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:22 PM

Get the point, Marvin and others: I doubt very much that anyone reading heee is unaware that the article's position is that anti-Israel criticism equates to anti-Semitism. I am questioning that reasoning. It is a facile, slippery assumption.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:42 PM

Read the article again. It is about using Anti-Israel to justify Anti-Semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:57 PM

Correct, Guest Allen.

That is what it is about. It is about the veil of anti-semitism hiding behind the anti-Israel movement by the left.

and ebbie, I believe that the author is presenting it as more fact than assumption. You and other "lefties" just look at it in denial, especially CarolC because you defend terrorists and dictators instead of supporting a democracy that the U.S and YOUR enemy George Bush are aligned with.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM

I am bloody sick of getting Jews pushed down down my throat as the victims. What about those poor kids living in Palestine the land which America and Britain solved their owns problems on after World War Two. I am sure there are decent Jewish people, but my heart goes out to the people of Palestine. Not the latest state on Old Glory.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:17 PM

You and other "lefties" just look at it in denial, especially CarolC because you defend terrorists and dictators instead of supporting a democracy that the U.S and YOUR enemy George Bush are aligned with.

This is a lie, Martin. I have never once defended terrorists or dictators.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:27 PM

Good grief.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:30 PM

Why oh why do you all keep feeding this troll Gibbon.

He is a troll who does Jews no justice at all, if they new about his behaviour on this forum he would be told to fuck off.

It is not a different persona he put on for this forum it is the real him and he needs to deal with it - up the medication you looser.

He/she is making fools of you all……..I am not to sure he/she knows that though given his present state of mind

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:32 PM

In my own experience, I have seen CarolC repeat lies in Mudcat discussions, so I tend to disbelieve anything she says.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:42 PM

Guest 3:30 you are an idiot. I know exactly what I am doing and it's making you miserable and I am loving it.

Guest 3:32 you are very cool and completely right.

Curator, obviously the article I posted hit a very uncomfortable chord with you. Excellent! Of course your silly, little twisted view from a screwed up monarchy in the 21st century would look favorably upon terrorists and dictators instead of the one democracy in the middle east. i wouldn't expect anything less from a moron such as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:00 PM

In my own experience, I have seen CarolC repeat lies in Mudcat discussions, so I tend to disbelieve anything she says.

Oh, yes? Which ones would those be then?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:21 PM

Quick, Guest.

find links. Any link will do. Just as long as you frantically post a lot of links that justify your position. forget about credibility. she does.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:24 PM

Dear Martin
If you think for a second your choice of words mean anything to me, they don't. I can see you like to wind people up, I have no problem with that. As to your words that your post hit a uncomfortable chord, it didn't. The hero's in Palestine trained a lot of our lads here in Ireland in the 1970's. Maybe that's what fires you up ? I really don't know why so many of you on this site even bother to answer this guy, he's a wind up merchant who's as thick as a plank. Give him a fools pardon, this child has problems. One point I think I must put you right on, everyone here knows I am a Irish Republican, and for you to say I take a view from a screwed up monarchy, well folks make your own minds up ! Now if I don't come back and answer you Martin don't take offence, but then again I might. Go on think up another couple of names for me (ones not already used on this site) come on give it your best.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:34 PM

I think Art made a rather interesting point when he wrote, referring to the person who started this thread:

In another thread you pretty much said, "this is only a forum" and not a place real enough to form actual community bonds between participants. Why, then, is it a place that's real enough for you to vent your venom and denigrate and slander real people who simply have different ways of seeing these sad events than you do?? Or are you just "having fun" in this thread too??

It's the question that has occurred to me from time to time. If this really is all a game - "having fun" - isn't that rather trivialising a pretty important topic. Are the unsustainable accusations thrown out, at Carol in particular, really just a kind of teasing, or is the hatred implied actually real?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:45 PM

forget about credibility. she does

That's pretty rich coming from you, Martin, considering you even accused GUEST,Allen of being pro terrorist in another thread.

Here was his response to you about that:

Subject: RE: BS: A discussion - What is antisemitism? .
From: GUEST,Allen - PM
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 03:21 PM

I'm Jewish and Israeli you prick and have never been pro-terrorirsts, you decided that I was. Best thing you can do for us is SHUT UP or talk like a human being.

Your post, of course, was deleted for being the personal attack that it was.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:54 PM

I admire you CarolC, I think your a lady. Please don't answer this guy.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:01 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Curator, I don['t care if you don't answer me or not.

I wouldn't expect much of an answer from someone who comes from a country as screwed up as yours anyway.

Why don't you just have another beer, laddie?

Carol C. obviously you either made up that post or are so obsessed and crazy that you save posts used on this forum somewhere other than here.

Do you have a special box you put them in? You are major weird, lady and I use the term loosely, because you are not. Talk about a fanatatical nut, CarolC, you take the cake.

If I did say that to allenC, I probably meant it, so it was the truth of how I felt about something he said.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:03 PM

I smell gas.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:08 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Guest, it's obviously your own. have another burrito and try changing your underwear once in a while.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:21 PM

Here you go, Martin...

http://www.mudcat.org/Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=1444275

Doesn't sound like you're having very much fun right now, Martin.


Thank you for your kind words, The Curator.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:25 PM

Don't drink Martin, sorry can't stop must go and talk to my good firends in Germany, have you any old friends here ?, great people.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:30 PM

Hmmmmmm, wonder why Martin, when he gets really defensive, other than his usual defensiveness, has to bring male genitelias into the conversation???

More of that polyporphorse perverse guilt of his showin' thru...

Like someone esle pointed out, Martin. Maybe it it time to talk with yer shrink 'bout a dosage increase of whatever he/she has you on 'cause it plainly ain't workin' fir ya...

And, fir the record, no one 'round here needs much proof that you not only voted fir Bush but you worship the man...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:43 PM

I'd apreciate it if I was not dragged in to fights that don't concern me.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:56 PM

You're right, Allen. My mistake. Please accept my apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 06:11 PM

So you are all going to carry on feeding the troll gibbon m

Jew - he/she does not know the meaning of the word and never will.

Gibbon I hope you do not have children because there life is doomed with you being anywhere near them, I pity them if they exist, poor children

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:46 PM

To The Curator and Guest: Do you see the disconnect between what you are saying and what you are doing? You yourselves are answering the troll while exhorting us not to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 09:28 PM

For the purpose of this thread I'm content with the following definition:

Anti-semitism is the hating of Jews - more than is necessary.

ttfn

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:23 PM

The Curator can't see past his beer because he is so anti-semitice living in Ireland, with no exposure to any other culture except the Arabs they have let in to take over.

bobert, being the moron that you totally are, you forget that I live in the most Democratic city, county, and state in the country, being Chicago, Cook County, and Illinois.

What you don't know is yes, I voted for Bush because Kerry was a complete idiot and I am glad he lost if not for the reason that a goon like you wanted him to win.

Your forced folksiness is wearing real thin here as I get PM after PM expressing gratitude that I stand up to you and your silly little clique here. With many radical Mudcatters leaving recently, I would say that I have rather enjoyed their departure and have noticed that my boldness has brought more and more moderates and commonsense thinkers to also express their opinions more frequently.

You're as arrogant as they come, bobert and CarolC, you are as obsessive as they come.

The Curator is just a fool who lives in a thrid rate country and doesn't know much about much except another pint of Guiness.

Hey, notice Mudcat isn't what it used to be? Goddamn right.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:13 AM

It may be that anti-Israeli sentiments are a cover for anti-semetism for some, but not for all. Thats a stereotype just like all other stereotypes. I have no problem with Jews or any other other culture but I do have problems with certain political organizations; including Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: harpgirl
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:38 AM

Decomposed bodies are less offensive than "martin gibbon."

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:25 AM

The article is very good at showing how Anti-Semitism has become transformed, in fact, is popular again. It's a case of roses and what you call them. It doesn't say criticism of Israel = Anti-Semitism, instead it challenges you to rethink what is legitimate criticism and what is not.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: The Curator
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:57 AM

Martin surely you can do better than that, I like so many are still laughing at you. Yes your so right about British ruled Northern Ireland being a third rate country (I am a Republican). At least we agree on something, stop picking on CarolC, she is making a little boy out of you with her skill and knowledge.Come on Marty boy pick on me and leave these good people alone.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:04 AM

He feels superior when picking on females. It is a power/fear combination. His intellect does not allow reasoned discussion. I had a good grin at his 'laddie' comment. He really hasn't a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:42 AM

"Martin"--

"Boldness"? --

I'm surprised that one of your amazing intellect and powers of observation would mistake your "boldness" for what it is--a staggeringly infantile and despicable way of answering anybody who disagrees with you even a little.

As well as, of course, somehow not being willing to stand behind anything you say with your real name.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:02 AM

Yeah, I got a good chuckle from the "boldness" statement as well. It ain't exactly a fine line that seperates "boldness" from "ignorance" but a wide, wide valley... Maybe Martin meant *baldness*...

But I am glad that, ahhhh, hmmmmmm, I was gonna say DougR but he doesn't have an trouble standing up to me.... Well, whomever they are, I'm glad that Martin is getting bombarded with PM's from the folks here in Mudville who have to hide unner their beds in fear after reading one of my posts...

Maybe you should run fir sheriff, Martin???...

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:55 AM

This thread got off to an uncharacteristically good start with MG posting a link to a valid article with something to say, though it was a bit dated.

It has rapidly downshifted to 'so's your old man' status. Not just most of you, but all of you have been there before. MG is a known quantity, you have already played this game in many other threads, and now this one, too.

Clearly that is what you really like doing. You have no excuse that anything different has happened here that has not happened elsewhere. Martin finds it absurdly easy to disrupt this or any thread. You really like piling up on Martin. At this point, MG could very well be laughing up his sleeve at how easy you are all diverted. And he'd be RIGHT.

It is instructive to me that given a chance to go back to the blackboard, or stay in the playground, almost everybody chooses the playground.

I thought you guys were better than that.

Maybe I should start swearing up a storm in all my posts, too.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:54 AM

Carry on regardless feeding the sick bastard, he is making fools of you all, are you happy with that?
Just remind me you are adults are you not?

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 10:42 AM

One of the problems I have with the Melanie Phillips article is that she doesn't seem to take into account the many people who support the existance of the State of Israel, but who disagree with the expansionist policies of the Israeli government. I don't live in Britain, so I don't know if there are very many people there who have this position, but she doesn't really seem to care whether or not such people exist, and doesn't seem to have taken the time or effort to find out. She just lumps everyone into one category: people who want to see the destruction of the State of Israel. Ms. Phillips is guilty of her share of stereotyping, and in my opinion, stereotyping is always a destructive thing.

Some of the things she says are simply not true. This part, for instance:

Israel is presented as crushing the Palestinians under a jackboot, and the settlements are obsessively dwelt upon as the obstacle to peace. I don’t approve of the settlements; and I also deplore the inevitable brutalisation that has afflicted Israel and which marks any occupation. But the presentation of the issue ignores the fact that more than 95% of the disputed land was offered to the Palestinians in 2000 to form a state of their own, provoking only the response of the current war of mass civilian murder.

And then she says this:

A columnist listed Jewish journalists (including the present writer) who she claimed were controlling public debate. Former Archbishop Desmond Tutu, having compared Israel to South Africa under apartheid

This is just bullshit. That "95% of land that she is talking about is in the form of little bantustans divided up by Jewish only roads and Jewish only settlements, guarded by the IDF, making the free movement of Palestinians from one part of their land to another either exceedingly difficult or completely impossible. And also rendering a viable independent state and a viable economy virtually impossible. If it was just 5% of the disputed land in question, the second intifada would never have taken place. And Archbishop Tutu was entirely correct in comparing the bantustans surrounded by Jewish only roads and settlements proposed by the government of Israel to the bantustans surrounded by White only land in South Africa. They are the same thing.

The other problem I have with it is that she starts out saying that criticism of the government of Israel is a valid thing and not necessarily indicative of anti-Semitism, and then she spends the whole rest of the article suggesting that all criticism of Israel is indicative of anti-Semitism. I see her article as an attempt to stifle legitimate discussion about Israel through implied charges of anti-Semitism rather than direct charges of anti-Semitism. Different tone, same tactic. She is just as guilty of prejudice and stereotyping, and I would suggest, probably some degree of hatred towards those she sees as being different than herself as she is accusing others of being.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:14 AM

Being equated with apartheid is sheer ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:15 AM

No it isn't, Allen.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:17 AM

Ok pray enlighten me.

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:31 PM

An old thread about leftist anti-smitism

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:05 PM

Robo is right. CarolC, Curator, and guys like RON DAVIES who thinks that just because he uses his real name makes him credible and superior but doesn't realize that I can laugh extra hard at the real named person RON DAVIES going through life as a fool.

RON DAVIES, you are a leftist who has no clue to my culture or really much of anyone's except your own. Please go pray to your ACLU/politically correct Kerry statue and realize that your opinion means crap to me. I have more respect for honest Guests here than I do for you. If you want a medal for using your real name here, first get a chest to pin it on. Personnally, I think you are a total fool for doing so.

Curator, it's been fun yanking your chain. Your country is third rate and so is your knowledge. CarolC's is even lower and will constantly be acknowledged by me for all to read that she is the most anti-Israel, anti-Jew, anti-American on this forum. I could give a crap if she pees sitting down or if her name was CarlC. She's dangerous to people and this country. I hope if the FBI monitors this forum which I am sure they do at this point that they got her pegged.

Anti-Semitism lives as usual through the Mudcat forum. The point of my initial post all along. Thanks for continuing to identify who you are.

Love ya!

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:25 PM

Main Entry: apart�heid
Pronunciation: &-'p�r-"tAt, -"tIt
Function: noun
Etymology: Afrikaans, from Dutch, from apart apart + -heid -hood
1 : racial segregation; specifically : a policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of So. Africa
2 : SEPARATION, SEGREGATION [I favor apartheid of smokers -- L. E. Bellin] [sexual apartheid]

The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem live completely at the whim of the government of Israel and the IDF in bantustans that are separated from each other by the land that is reserved only for Jews in those areas, and are segregated from that Jewish only land, as well as from Israel itself, and they have no legal rights whatever under the military occupation there. The situation in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem is not exactly the same as that of South Africa... in some ways it may be somewhat better (although I am not aware of any), and in some ways it is worse. But it is similar enough for someone who lived as one of the oppressed under apartheid in South Africa to be able to reasonably make that connection, as Archbishop Tutu did after visiting the area.

Websters Dictionary

Subject: RE: BS: The New Anti-semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:33 PM

I've often heard Tutu talking nonsense, and this is just one more silly example.

Wolfgang