BS: Bad things Canada has done.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Metchosin
Date: 06 May 05 - 05:39 AM

beardedbruce, sorry, I missed TJ's original post. So let me get this straight.....you believe that selling armaments to non-democratic nations that abuse human rights is a good thing that Canada has done....and that the bad thing Canada has done is blame the US for Canada's good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 05 - 10:57 PM

Homolka

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 05 - 09:59 PM

Hey Beer

Loved your use of the word "gaul" in your post, lots of shades of meaning there for us ex-Quebecers.

Reminds me of the old joke about England selling Gibralter to France who were going to rename it DeGaul stone.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 05 - 09:50 PM

I got stopped, too. Was near the CN station (near the old Sunlife Building). Some boys from the Vandoos. Wanted to know what was in my guitar case. I could never shut my mouth, ya know, and I responded, "An FN-C1." Had to open the case and play them a few songs. Before I left, we were gettin' along just fine. However, it was a bit tense there for a few seconds.

We must have met, but you didn't go by the name Beer then.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Beer
Date: 05 May 05 - 09:37 PM

Before the sponsership scandal became known to the public there was this commercial on t.v. that asked you to report your neighbour if he made $5.00 under the table. I can't be sure if it was a Provincial thing or Federal but it doesn't really matter. The point is that the majority of the politicians in question involved in the sponsership program have the gaul to say with raised hands, I know nothing, It wasen't me. No,no, not I, and so on. How truly discusting.
I was also In Montreal during the October crises. Got stopped on the Champlain Bridge about 10:30 p.m. Think I may have had a few to many. They didn't do much about those things back then. Probably coming back from one of your gigs Brucie
Beer

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 05 - 07:00 PM

Another unread post by the Conservative wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:59 PM

brucie,

You asked me to this thread, where I answered the off-thread questions, and then refused to address my ON-topic ones. I have no desire for enemies- but if you insist on being a shit-for-brains, I will continue to point it out to the world.

And at least I am open minded enough to read points of view I might disagree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:55 PM

You wanted an enemy you got one. Wish I'd read the remark above.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:54 PM

Yes, brucie, you are. I did not accuse YOU of being narrow-minded, then state I would ignore the posts that I might disagree with.


But I guess you have no idea of treating others as you would want to be treated.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:52 PM

What an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:47 PM

as long as the following is also accepted:

an action of which Canada disapproves, by the US or any other country, is not automatically anti-Canada, but should be considered as pro-US unless proven otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:35 PM

I think that in all of this something must be remembered: an action of which the US disapproves, by Canada or any other country, is not automatically anti-US, but should be considered as pro-Canadian unless proven otherwise.

There is a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: podman
Date: 05 May 05 - 04:48 AM

Slightly off the point, but Warner Bros. had border character "Speedy Gonzalez" to save the day to the South. Did they ever try a northern border parody?

Yeah, I know about Dudley Do-Right - Different company.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 May 05 - 04:37 AM

Does anybody remember the Huckleberry Hound adventure when Huck was a mountie and he was after the outlaw Powerful Pierre?

a classic in its time

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 05 - 02:40 AM

Metchosin,

My comment was in response to the earlier post, between the lines here:
__________________________________________________________________
Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TS - PM
Date: 02 May 05 - 11:10 AM

wow...someone needs a life...BB..when's the last time you powered off your computer and stepped outsided for a breath of fresh air. Shame on Canada for having a Military, or for developing capable arms for our Military and for making these same arms available for other Nations to ensure their sovranty. Oh...ps..the M-16 was sold to Canada by the US. Canada made some slight beauty alterations and sold it back to the US.

Slainte!
TS
_____________________________________________________________________

"By your own reasoning, why should Canada's involvement in the continued manufacturing of arms, be considered, by you, a bad thing that Canada has done? "

*I* do not- but the US was being blamed for it, so that it must be a bad thing...



Feel free to trade all the beef and timber you like to N. Korea- But when they tell you you have to send more or they will use a nuclear bomb on you, ( like they are threatening about US energy aid, which THEY violated the terms for) I guess you can just buy it from the US to send to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 05 - 02:19 AM

Metchosin has a point, "Is this a dislike of competition by others in a free market economy with US manufacturers or, is there some moral issue, on your part, with regard to the sale of arms?"

I think Canada should sell Korea our beef and lumber, too. The U.S. is making it pretty hard for Canada to trade freely across the border.

Hmmm...I wonder what we could trade for middle east oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Metchosin
Date: 05 May 05 - 01:49 AM

beardedbruce, "Shame on the US for having a Military, or for developing capable arms for our Military and for making these same arms available for other Nations to ensure their sovranty."?

By your own reasoning, why should Canada's involvement in the continued manufacturing of arms, be considered, by you, a bad thing that Canada has done?

Is this a dislike of competition by others in a free market economy with US manufacturers or, is there some moral issue, on your part, with regard to the sale of arms?

For most Canadians here at Mudcat, the manufacture and sale of weapons by Canada is not news and has been commented upon before in other threads. I can recall myself posting, a couple of years back, something regarding the manufacture of gumby and pokey dolls in the same Canadian Hamm chemical factory that was manufaturing napalm or some such thing, to supply the US during the war in Vietnam.

It is very useful to the US to have Canada appear as an independant nation state at times at odds with US policy, while at the same time supplying the US with valuable information as well, from a position not available directly to the US. This was certainly the case during the Vietnam war and I doubt little has changed in the halls of power behind the scene, in subsequent years.

DougR, in this country, unless one is decidedly apolitical or oblivious, sometimes it is difficult for Canadians not to feel the need to comment on stuff which directly affects them as well. This does not mean that Canadians do not have great fondness for many Americans as individuals or an admiration for some aspects of US society, particularly in areas where Canada lags. (Whistleblowers come to my mind in particular and freedom of information regarding the machinations of government). Whatever routes the US decides to pursue, affects us directly more than any other nation on earth.      

And, if the US feels the right to mould other nations in its own image, why be suprised that others feel the need to comment. As Pierre Elliot Trudeau remarked, Canada's relationship with the United States is like that of "a mouse in bed with an elephant…no matter how friendly…one is affected by every twitch and grunt."

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: DougR
Date: 05 May 05 - 01:04 AM

brucie: "cheap, beneith you." Surely you jest! Other than Rick Fielding, who unfortunately is no longer with us, I cannot think of one Candadian Mudcatter who doesn't relish the opportunity to bash the U. S. Can you?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:19 PM

In other words, having answered your question, you will concede the moral high ground to me? Thank you very much.


I had thought we were having a discussion here, but obviously not...

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:16 PM

Sorry, Bruce. But after that bullshit I no longer read your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:08 PM

The first paragraph was the answer to what, IMO, the US did wrong.

This thread is about Canada, remember? If you want to discuss the US, we should start a thread to do so..... Remember when you started this thread?...


Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:05 PM

Bruce, Be nice. You say the US has done some bad things. I asked what bad things. You pile on a bunch of sarcasm.

If that's the way you want to be, fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:03 PM

Now, in your own words, What has Canada done to help the world situation re Iran and N. Korea? Obviously, YOU know how to deal with the problem, and can take full responsibility for whatever happens...


NOT.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:01 PM

In my own words?

We failed to interdict the movement of terrorists into Iraq during and after the war. We failed to detain those Iraqis that had supported Saddam. We failed to persuade the rest of the Arab world that we did not intend to remain in Iraq.


What we SHOULD have done was stand outside the border, and when Saddam refused to comply with the UN resolutions back in 1994 nuc'ed the entire country into glass. THEN we would have NO US causualties, and the Left would be happy.

(NOTE THIS IS SARCASTIC COMMENT! )

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 05 - 08:49 PM

So, BB. In your own words, what exactly has America done wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 05 - 07:19 PM

TS,

Shame on the US for having a Military, or for developing capable arms for our Military and for making these same arms available for other Nations to ensure their sovranty.


The whole point of this thread was to move my comments off another thread, where I was pointing out that the excuse that the reason people in Canad were criticising the US and not the terrorists was that the US was "closer to home". I have shown that they are living in a glass house, and perhaps should think before they throw stones.

I have no problem with criticism of the US- we certainly deserve our FAIR share of it. But to insist that ONLY the US should be held accountable for it's actions is a little.... biased?

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:19 AM

OK. That's Washington. But it's beginning to seem lots like Ottawa, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: robomatic
Date: 04 May 05 - 05:35 AM

sex
sociopaths
felonious mopery
   strings attached :
"Puppets Who Kill"

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 03 May 05 - 07:03 PM

This thread was started by a Canadian.

1) Residential schools
2) Uranium
3) Asbestos
4) Reserves (for people) without which they would have NO land at all

Doug, there are very few of my countrymen/women who would ever tell you we are guiltless. We are not. Most of us know that, and some of us work to rectify the problems which we see as shameful reflections of our country.

"If we are to believe our Canadian Mudcat friends, Canada is the land of milk and honey and can do NO wrong. Canadians are so strong, and straight-minded they can live next to a neighbor that commits sin after sin on mankind without it rubbing off on them. Canada do something wrong! Perish the thought."

Cheap, and beneath you, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,DougRs
Date: 03 May 05 - 12:33 PM

DougR

Can you please show us an example of a Canadian Mudcatter doing that, all I see are 25 or so examples of Canadian Mudcatters criticizing Canada and a number of innocuous comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 05 - 10:44 AM

"...managed maritime boundary disputes with the US at Dixon Entrance, Beaufort Sea, Strait of Juan de Fuca, and around the disputed Machias Seal Island and North Rock." (from the CIA's World Factbook website).

As a US citizen, I, for one, will not rest until this pressing issue has been resolved with our good neighbors to the north.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 03 May 05 - 10:02 AM

This is kinda interesting.
So's this article.

No nation anywhere has clean hands. None.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: DougR
Date: 02 May 05 - 05:27 PM

If we are to believe our Canadian Mudcat friends, Canada is the land of milk and honey and can do NO wrong. Canadians are so strong, and straight-minded they can live next to a neighbor that commits sin after sin on mankind without it rubbing off on them. Canada do something wrong! Perish the thought!
:>)
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,Brucesbeard
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:00 PM

The US sells about 45% of all of the arms sold in the world. Canada sells about 1%, in population and economically the US is about 10 times larger than Canada and it sells 45 times as much in arms.

So per capita, the US is between four and five times as bad as Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: TS
Date: 02 May 05 - 11:10 AM

wow...someone needs a life...BB..when's the last time you powered off your computer and stepped outsided for a breath of fresh air. Shame on Canada for having a Military, or for developing capable arms for our Military and for making these same arms available for other Nations to ensure their sovranty. Oh...ps..the M-16 was sold to Canada by the US. Canada made some slight beauty alterations and sold it back to the US.

Slainte!
TS

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Peace
Date: 02 May 05 - 10:25 AM

We are for sure angels with dirty faces. But then we often sleep with the Devil.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: Metchosin
Date: 02 May 05 - 04:20 AM

Yup, Canada and Canadian business tries real hard to be a player like its big buddy, the good old USA. Of course, it had some ways to go, to catch up with U.S. military exports in 1997 of $21.3 billion, $8.3 billion of which went to 52 countries where the US State Department says citizens are not allowed to choose their government democratically. But Canada can't let the side down, doncha know. The US sometimes has trouble recognizing Canada as a friend, when Canada doesn't get involved in the same rotten games that the US plays.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 03:50 AM

I was responding to the message from brucie:

BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: brucie - PM
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:07 AM

"Indeed, the true weapons of mass destruction are the jet fighters, tanks, machine guns and other military exports that the United States ships to nondemocratic countries -- a record $8.3 billion worth in the 1997 fiscal year, the last year for which figures are available."


Names of companies are given in the reports Google "canada military exports". Ownership is sometimes listed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: dianavan
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:55 AM

I notice that your figures are a few years old. Do you have any current figures?

I'm especially interested in knowing the names of these small arms manufacturers. I also wonder if they are Canadian owned industries.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:41 AM

So, brucie, have any more stones to throw?

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:35 AM

http://www.canadiandemocraticmovement.ca/displayarticle37.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:33 AM

http://www.corpwatch.org/print_article.php?&id=429

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:30 AM

One need only examine the evidence amassed here to see that Canadian corporations and the government are still very much complicit in crimes against peace, crimes against humanity and war crimes. Some of the governments purchasing Canadian military hardware are notorious for violating human rights. Many so-called "security" forces armed by Canada are well known to routinely engage in torture and extrajudicial executions.

In 1998, the following countries purchased Canadian military hardware, even though torture by their military and/or police was reported that year by Amnesty International to be "widespread," "endemic," "systematic," "officially sanctioned," "frequent" or "commonplace": Argentina, Brazil, China, Egypt, Israel, Mexico, Peru, Philippines, Turkey and Venezuela.

Between 1990 and 1998, the Canadian government permitted the military exports to numerous undemocratic and repressive regimes. For instance, Canada has sold arms to:

Brunei, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Oman: Countries which have never had any elections;
Bahrain: Its only legislature has been dissolved by decree since 1975;
Kuwait: Women still do not have the right to vote or stand for election;
Algeria, Egypt, Jordan, Kenya, Mauritania, Morocco, Lebanon, Pakistan, Singapore, St. Vincent, Togo and Turkey: Women held less than 5% of the seats in parliament in 1999;
Bahrain, China, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE: Unions, strikes and collective bargaining are strictly outlawed; and * India, Kuwait, Lebanon, Mozambique, Oman, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Tanzania and UAE: Central governments spent more on their militaries than on health and education combined.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:28 AM

International Arms Trade

Canada was the world's ninth largest arms exporter in 1997.[1] We ranked even higher, however, in terms of our military exports to the "Third World." In that category, we ranked seventh.[2]

The Key to Military Equipment Types," on page 5, outlines the wide range of Canadian military exports. These numbered equipment types are referred to in many of the tables in this issue. All of the data on Canada's military exports is from annual reports published by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT), called Export of Military Goods from Canada.[3]

These reports are significantly flawed. They omit all data on military exports to the U.S., which is by far, our largest buyer. The magnitude of this flaw is evidenced by DFAIT's estimate that 80% of Canadian military exports in 1997 went to the U.S.![4]

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:26 AM

Canada's Military Exports Increased in 1998
By Richard Sanders

The Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT) recently
released its ninth annual report, Export of Military Goods from Canada.
This report lists dollar amounts and equipment types for Canadian military
exports to 61 countries during 1998.


According to this report, Canada's military exports increased by 38%, from
$304 million in 1997 to $421 million, in 1998. These figures, however, do
not included exports to the U.S. This is the most significant flaw in
these reports because the U.S. buys more military equipment from Canada
than the rest of the world combined!

........................................................................

Another flaw in DFAIT's reports is that they do not include any "dual use"
equipment, such as helicopters, that can be used for civilian or military
purposes.


Despite Canada's reputation as a nation which values peacekeeping, we
continue to sell military hardware to governments which are notorious for
violating human rights. Among the governments purchasing Canadian military
hardware are some of the world's most corrupt and violent regimes. The
military and police forces in many of the countries armed by Canada are
well known to routinely engage in torture and extrajudicial executions.

Below this table, you will find the key to "Military Equipment Types" which
are cited here.


A Partial Listing of Canadian Military Exports (1997)

Recipient            Military               Value of exports in 1997
Governments    Equipment Types               (in Cdn $)

Argentina      1                              $137,389
   
Botswana       10                           $3,728,231
   
Brazil         3, 10, 14                   $3,363,152
   
Chile          1, 5, 11                      $597,776
   
China          10, 11                         $814,170
   
Egypt          10, 11                         $622,403
   
Israel          3, 6, 9, 10, 11, 15          $783,455
      
Jordan          1, 10, 11, 18                $187,795

Korea (South)   3, 5, 9, 10, 11, 14         $4,719,275
   
Malaysia       3, 10, 14, 18, 21          $91,792,358
   
Mexico          1, 3, 10                   $1,671,730
   
Morocco         10, 14                        $171,652
   
Oman            4, 11                         $467,940
   
Peru            11                            $69,550

Philippines    10                         $1,069,175
   
Saudi Arabia    6, 10, 11, 14             $29,800,192
   
Singapore       2, 4, 10, 11, 14, 18       $2,857,066
   
Taiwan          9, 10, 11, 14, 15          $3,202,336
   
Thailand       1, 3, 6, 10, 11, 18       $37,174,639
   
Turkey          4, 10, 14                   $3,531,616
   
U.A.E.          3, 10                      $4,123,639
   
Venezuela       10                            $523,106

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:19 AM

"based on figures in the United Nations Register, Canada accounts for less than 1 percent of the world arms market), "
http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/trade/eicb/military/military_Export-en.asp



with what percentage of the world's population?
32,805,041 (July 2005 est.) / 6,446,131,400 (July 2005 est.)
....0.5089 per cent
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html



Sounds like Canada has it's share of the world arms market...

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:10 AM

brucie,

**************************
Did Canadian Weapons Kill Peaceful Protestors in Papua New Guinea on June 26?

Coalition to Oppose the Arms Trade calls upon the Canadian government to immediately halt all exports of police and military equipment to PNG.

Canadian-made C7 "combat rifles" are likely the weapons used by Papua New Guinea (PNG) police to kill at least three peaceful protestors and wound 17 others in Port Moresby on Tuesday, June 26, 2001.

University of PNG students were shot this week when their five-day, non-violent protest was violently dispersed by PNG police using teargas and M16 rifles.

Diemaco, a "small arms" manufacturer in Kitchener, Ontario, has sold its automatic weapons to PNG. Diemaco's entry in Industry Canada's online database of "Canadian Defence Company Capabilities" reports that it has "export experience" to Papua New Guinea.

The Canadian government has designated Diemaco to be "Canada's Centre of Excellence for Small Arms." Diemaco produces several "small arms" in the C7 "Family of Combat Weapons."

The C7 is the Canadian version of the U.S. M16. It is produced by Diemaco under licence from the U.S. Colt Manufacturing Company.


*****************

Per capita, what are the CANADIAN arms sales to the world? I have heard how the US is such a huge consumer of material and the most industrialized nation, but on a per capita basis what countries export the MOST arms?

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:49 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: brucie
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:49 PM

Hey, we beat the crap outta baby seals."

Not since the 1970's ya h'ingorant 'angashore mainlander.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: number 6
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:26 AM

BB ..... thanks for posting that info. I think a lot of Canadians are totally unaware this.


sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Bad things Canada has done.
From: GUEST,.uncleSAM
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:15 AM

At the shower I f"-ed her backside

Unfilling to unite I spawned fifty others.

Sincerly,

Uncle Sammy