BS: Unite Against Terror

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:08 PM

They tended to resent that, and guys like Osama bin Laden, a wealthy Saudi who was working with the Mujah Hadeen, took umbrage at this two-faced behavior. If the U. S. had kept its promise, the World Trade Center may still be standing.


Don, if you truly believe this then you haven't a clue.

As far as Iraq is concerned about eight million people braved the threats to go and vote for their parliament, note they didn't choose the, so called, US candidate. Now these people, and the representatives they elected, are trying to build a democracy. Point is do you want them to succeed or not. Their government wants the coalition forces to stay, probably until next year, who they hell are you to say they're wrong.

Just what are the bombers trying to do there? Most of the attacks are against the local population. The US isn't their enemy, democracy is their enemy.

Take off the "Bush" glasses and deal with what we have.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:00 PM

Perfectly said, Don. Those last 2 paragraphs of yours ought to be wrought in gold and stamped on the front doors of the White House and Congress.

People in the region called "Iraq", an arbitrary set of borders drawn around several different cultures by British imperial ambition, have been dealing with this nonsense for a very long time now. The British were massacring them in the 1920's by strafing and bombing them with the Royal Air Force. Why? For the land and for the oil. The Americans are just the latest arrival in the old "invade-and-exploit" game. Young American soldiers mostly have no idea of that. They were brought up to believe they were spreading "freedom", when all they are really doing is dying on behalf of corporate wealth.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 12:33 PM

Shakey, what I said about the invasion of Iraq is relevant, if you care to apply a modicum of thought to the matter. It is merely one of a long series of things that the United States and various European countries have done in and to the Middle East for a century or more, perhaps even going as far back as the Crusades. For some strange reason, large numbers of Middle Easterners tend to resent would-be imperialist countries coming in and exploiting their natural resources and telling them how to run things. Terrorism is about the only method that essentially powerless people have for trying to change the situation.

This Iraqi invasion of Bush's is just the most recent of a long line of interferences, and that's just the kind of activity that spawns organizations like al Qaeda in the first place. And betrayal. The U. S. moved into Afghanistan to help the Mujah Hadeen drive the Soviets out, gaining their confidence by promising to rebuild their country after the deed was done. But once the Soviets backed out, we dropped the Afghanis like a pregnant girl friend. They tended to resent that, and guys like Osama bin Laden, a wealthy Saudi who was working with the Mujah Hadeen, took umbrage at this two-faced behavior. If the U. S. had kept its promise, the World Trade Center may still be standing.

You can't stop terrorists merely by hunting them down and killing them. You just create more terrorists. If you stop doing whatever you are doing that pisses people off in the first place, they no longer have any motivation to blow you up.

The idea that terrorists do what they do because they "hate freedom and democracy and our way of life" is a crock! What they hate is our constant interference and exploitation.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 09:15 PM

Okay, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 09:10 PM

dunno, i'll think about it, and let you know tommorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 09:06 PM

Fine, fine...but how do you plan to address the problem of small dogs being left tied up by their owners? (see: "Untie Angst Terriers") And what about Trevor? Do you have a solution for Trevor? (See: "Unite Against Trevor")

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:57 PM

all the terrorists are coloured , ie blacks and asylum seekers, dont let them on the buses or tranes, and its good for them as well, as they will haf to walk every were, and get plenty of exercise , and it will stop them getting fat.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:53 PM

Ah, Sir jOhn...ever the calm voice of reason in a sea of hysteria... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:46 PM

how to stop terrorisem is easy=just stop couloered people from going on buses and trains.
easy.innit.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:12 PM

But that's the thing, Bill.
The petition is only 'talking' about it

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:09 PM

Don, I don't know which thread you thought you were on, has anyone around here being supporting the actual invasion? It's the situation as it has now we're talking about, except of course for akenanoo^© but he has his special little problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:03 PM

Or wait. I know...

Disunity is the problem. It's the original problem from which all the others stem.

Let's unite against disunity!!! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:57 PM

Like I said, everyone is against terrorism. (Even the blasted terrorists!) They just can't agree on what IS and what is NOT "terrorism" or under what circumstances.

How about a petition against stupidity?

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,The Phantom of the Uproar
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:29 PM

I am and I have, Shakey. I feel no need to sign someone's petition to attest to the fact that I am a moral, peace-loving person who deplores the use of violence as a means of political coercion.

As far as the "spam argument" is concerned, almost every time I have signed a petition in the past, within a week or two I start getting dunned for contributions to support the cause and they just keep coming. You'd be amazed at the amount of this kind of crap that cluttered up my e-mail until I got my spam blocker.

I'm very picky about what petitions I sign these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:23 PM

I think they're very closely related :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:17 PM

You figure he's teribus' brother? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:08 PM

Hawk, I'm thinking of growing the "full Monty" ....Just to annoy Shakibus...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:43 PM

Ake has a five O'clock shadow?

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:19 PM

Phantom make your own mind up, I'm sure you're able.BTW the spam argument is at least novel.


Ake, come back when you've started shaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:07 PM

At best, trying to combat terrorism with a conventional invasion, especially of the wrong country, is a bit like trying to combat hornets by going around with a baseball bat and hitting everything in sight, including (more by accident than anything else) an occasional hornet's nest. All invading Iraq did (other than creating a helluva mess!) was hand a propaganda victory to al Qaeda.

Can you say "counterproductive?"

I agree with the Phantom. Staying alert and able to notify the authorities is the best thing the man or woman on the street can do. Eyes everywhere. Signing some cockamammie petition hardly seems like an effective countermeasure to suicide bombers and such.

Get a grip!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:43 PM

Surprised to see this tread still on the page.

What an insult to those who protested the folly of Iraq both here on Mudcat and on the streets.
One of the main planks of our protest, was that the war would encourage terrorism, and make the UK more vulnarable to attack.

We are now expected to prove our credentials to a pro-war New Labour acolite in the shape of "Shakibus" to whom anything is acceptable,as long as its passed by the Blessed Tony.

He dares to lecture us on "patriotism",but if Shakibus and his war-mongering buddies get their way,its possible the country that many of us are so proud of will be unrecognisible to our grandchildren.

Be brave Mudcats, dont allow yourselves to be "spun" by this small group of fanatics.
As George Galloway said to the Senate Committee, we were RIGHT on every point on the Iraq War and they were WRONG.
Dont let these people blackmail you with taunts of "apologist", the real Left were against the war, and their opinions on increased terrorism voiced then, have been fully vindicated by the atrocities of 7/7.
Everyone here is against terrorism, be it Islamic suicide bombers, or the troops who broke into houses in Fallujah and shot whole families in their beds.

As a footnote, spin is not confined to the pages of Mudcat.
The Americans today, have stopped talking about the "War on Terror",
it is apparently now to be called the battle against "violent extremists".

Thats a laugh!! Many of the most violent extremists are hiding within the American and British administrations....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:36 PM

What keeps on being ignored is that the war in Iraq is a triumph for the fanatics of September 11th. It's helped them, it continues to help them. It might get presented as a "war against terror" but in real terms it is a war engineered by terrorists as a way of extending and deepening their power and influence.

This isn't football, it's chess. You win football by pushing forward and scoring. You win chess by out-thinking your opponent, thinking ahead and being willing to sacrifice pieces.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,The Phantom of the Uproar
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 02:47 PM

Shakey, I am fully aware of the danger that al Qaeda—and other terrorist groups—present to the rest of the world, and, for that matter, to me personally. I don't need to sign some petition to take that into my soul. I do find, however, that when I sign petitions, I often wind up on someone's list to receive spam, junk snail-mail, and solicitations for contributions to "aid the cause," all of dubious nature.   

The best things that I can do as a private citizen is to keep my eyes open when I amn around and about, and keep my cell phone charged and the numbers of the relevant authorities handy in case I see something that I think looks suspicious.

I still see signing some petition as an empty gesture, and I still wonder why you're so adamant that we should all do this.

The Phantom

"He who focusses on swatting flies fails to see the leopard creeping up from behind." Old jungle saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 02:18 PM

Repeating the defiant statements from our leaders about 'Not negotiating with terrorists', 'We are not afraid', 'Bring it on', and the likes, is counter-productive.

And really, that sort of approach is sloganeering, another favorite tactic of "fascists" for controling people (instead of actually solving problems).

No, I think the real fascists in this scenario are the governments who do the bidding of the mega-corporations at the expense of the people they are "elected" to serve.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 02:07 PM

Very well said, Tir! Good post.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 02:03 PM

Is it just me, or are the National boundaries of Iraq a bit too straight?

I speak here of the territory of the Kurds, the Turkmans, The Sunnis, The Shia, and Uncle Tom Cobbley's crowd as well...

The place as it now stands, can only be 'successfully' ruled by a dictatorship... that is if you're going to try and achieve a bit of peace and security there. There's too many vested interests within the present confines of Iraq for it to work otherwise.
That was why Saddam (and the rest of the oligarchs out there) were and are so bloody handy for the West.
They kept the locals down while they pumped the oil.

Bush and Blair have taken on a number of Civil and potential Civil Wars, here.
And it is going to go on, and on, and on, and on, unfortunately.

Insurgency really has to be addressed around a negotiating table, whether there's ceasefires going on, or not.
There are too many standards that the West publicly adhere to, yet we all know that they disregard them all the time across the stage of World conflict.

Unless 'Armageddon' is what is being prepared for (and I find that too severe a penalty for the innocents of this World to pay, for what in effect is achievable through negotiation and compromise...); if it is part of a 'hidden agenda', the dissident voices of the populace must make themselves heard in ways that will be more expedient in achieving truces and ceasefires.

That should be the goal of the people at the minute.

It does not take away from any sense of National pride in one's country to say "Ok... how do we sort this out?"

Repeating the defiant statements from our leaders about 'Not negotiating with terrorists', 'We are not afraid', 'Bring it on', and the likes, is counter-productive.

Surely we've all arrived at that point, by now?

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:44 PM

Well, I'm a great admirer of Gandhi and all that he did, Shakey. His statement is a good one.

It could be misused, though, in some cases. Let's suppose that Adolf Hitler had said, in 1920, ""First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

He would have been absolutely right! That's what happened...up until around about the battle of Stalingrad. First the German public ignored the fledgling Nazi Party, then they laughed at them, then they fought in the streets (Communists and socialists etc did...) against the Nazi brown shirts, and THEN the Nazis won!

Hoo, boy....

You can win and still be wrong. And if you are massively, horrendously wrong, you may win TODAY, but you will lose somewhere further down the line.

Now I didn't say all that as a refutation of your position on things. I just said it because it's kind of interesting. So don't take it personally, okay?

Now, regarding the terrorist threat. Is it real? Darned right it is! And here's another threat that's real: the possibility that the USA and Britain may attack Iran one of these days and the possibility that they may be in Iraq for a long time, not to help Iraqis but to control the oil.

Shoud we be concerned about the terrorist threat on our home ground? YES!

Should Iraqis, Iranians, Afghans, and many other Muslims be concerned about the corporate Anglo-American threat to their sovereignty over their own lands and strategic resources? YES!

We have at least 2 major groups of people here under grave threat, Shakey...and be each other, so maybe you should suggest a 2nd petition as well. ;-) Just to be fair, I mean.

Ever had your city bombed by squadrons of F-16's? Ever had your neighborhood flattened by Abrams tanks? You would not like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:22 PM

Forgot to answer this bit...

and just who are they going to nuke

In the case of the neocons, pretty much anybody who gets in the way of their ambitions of global domination. The right wing fundamentalist Christian fantasy is to bring about armageddon in the Middle East to hasten the second coming of Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:14 PM

Tiocfaidh, I assume you're referring to things closer to home. You're right it should never have got that far, there always was something to negotiate about: here there isn't.

---

Gunmen have killed at least 12 Iraqi workers travelling home by bus from a factory in the western outskirts of the capital, Baghdad.

At least five people were killed and up to 10 were wounded in a suicide bomb blast outside a Baghdad hospital.

A group claiming to be al-Qaeda in Iraq says it has killed two Algerian diplomats

This is just today. Sure it's all about Bush

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:07 PM

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

Ain't that the truth, Shakey....

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:02 PM

Who are "our jihadists" and just who are they going to nuke.

GW Bush and his right wing fundamentalist Christian string pullers (also the neocons, but they are "jihadists" of a different sort, some Christian, some not).

don't get sucked into "my enemy's enemy is my friend" nonsense.

Please show me where I have done that.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 12:46 PM

Phantom, it maybe an empty gesture if you quickly peruse the front page and then sign-up, maybe also for me - I read all the "why I signed" stuff: I was already in agreement, but for some people it's a rubicon, one they thought they would never cross, some still can't.

It's about recognising this danger for what it is, in your own mind.

No, it's not about dealing with the threats it's about facing up to the fact that these threats are real despite Bush.

It's a very small step but obviously far too big for some.

pathetic maybe

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Ghandi

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,The Phantom of the Uproar
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 12:28 PM

I'm sure if we all sign this petition and get our all our friends and family to sign it, it will have al Qaeda quaking in their boots. Why are you so insistent, Shakey? Do you seriously think this will do anything at all?

An empty gesture. A bit pathetic, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 12:11 PM

I realized that, as you put it, "A single degenerated version of a religion is the aim" in the eyes of some of the combatants (specially among the Muslim fighters). That's true. I don't think it's the aim of the larger geo-political forces that are shaping these events, however. Those forces are concerned primarily with oil and other strategic considerations. If they can inflame religious hatreds in order to provoke further conflict, so that they can then occupy desired areas of land and continue to satisfy lucrative contracts, they will do so.

Corporations have a life of their own. It goes beyond national loyalty, beyond human considerations, and beyond morality. It's an imperative to forever enlarge, enrich, and extend the corporation itself...which is a fictional entity, but an entity which is very real in that it has financial power over the lives of many people. A corporation is an artificial mind, and it seeks to enlare itself by any means possible. It hungers for more.

This is not a good situation in human affairs, to say the least.

Have you seen the movie, "The Corporation"? I haven't, but I've been hearing about it. People should not have invented such a thing in the first place, because it takes on a life of its own. Abraham Lincoln warned about what could happen when huge business interests took over America. He saw it beginning to happen in his own time.

I consider it an even larger danger than organized religion, but they are BOTH very dangerous.

Money is a religion too, you know. It's a god, and people serve it thoughtlessly every day of their lives. And it's a totally made-up god that people themselves created, thinking it would serve them. Now they serve it.

We elect governments, thinking they will serve us. They don't. We serve them. Think about it. Who really has the power? Do you? And if not, how are you going to empower yourself?

Be glad, at least, that your thoughts are still private...

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:49 AM

Religion is just an excuse to mobilize fighters for the cause.

No,No,No.

A single degenerated version of a religion is the aim, it's both imperialist and fascist (in the wider sense), as I stated above the excuses are Isreal / Afganistan / Iraq etc.


My feeling is that simply upping the ante of retaliation...by invading more countries and smashing up more real estate (the method tried so far)...will simply NOT yield a useful result. It will encourage more and more desperate counter-strikes on the western populace by terrorist cells.

Well this is partly my point also. Fighting, in the literal sense, is very difficult when you cannot see your opponent, but AQ has an ideology and it is this that must be fought. There are "serious" writers in UK papers that support the attacks on US/UK soldiers in Iraq. Why? The invasion is over, people are trying to build a democracy , just tell me in who's interest is it that these murderers win.

OK, the west isn't perfect, big deal. Blair, through the G8, was trying to push Africa center stage, one day later what the f* happens.
Have a luck at a map since 7/7, 21/7 and sharm el shiekh, Africa is about as big as Malta.

And to all the pundits that say we brought it on ourselves, Blairs participation in Iraq did increase the chances of the UK being attacked. From 100% to 200%, go figure.

Shakey

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:03 AM

Guest of 27 Jul 05 - 06:50 AM ...

You made some good points there. I can agree with a lot of what you said. Ordinary Iraqis are in a very bad spot now, caught between an occupying foreign army and a fanatical bunch of guerrilla fighters representing many different factions. If the USA and Britain were to leave Iraq now, there would no doubt be an extended period of internal warfare in that country between various factions which would take many more lives and cause even greater misery. Iraqis are between a rock and a hard place.

I would prefer that the USA had not invaded Iraq in the first place. I believe that was a mistake. Now that they are there, it's very difficult for them to withdraw.

I frankly don't know what the solution is. It's a very bad situation. And so is the Afghani situation, which is slowly getting worse as time goes by. We've got a strong possibility here of two endless guerilla wars festering on and on...as happened with the Soviets when they were occupying Afghanistan.

Then there's the risk of chemical, biological, and even nuclear attacks by terrorists on western cities in the USA, the UK, Canada, etc...and, yes, it's a very real possibility.

You and I can't do a darned thing about it. Our leaders are the ones who can do something about, but will they?

My feeling is that simply upping the ante of retaliation...by invading more countries and smashing up more real estate (the method tried so far)...will simply NOT yield a useful result. It will encourage more and more desperate counter-strikes on the western populace by terrorist cells.

The conflicts in the World are driven mainly by poverty and gross inequality. The Have-Nots are fighting against the Haves, and the Haves are controlling the show, because they HAVE THE MONEY AND THE HIGH-TECH WEAPONS. It is gross inequality that fuels the hatred and discord in this World. Religion is just an excuse to mobilize fighters for the cause.

What are we going to do about it? As long as "the bottom line" (profit) rules every major policy decision made by our western leaders...this tragic situation will not and cannot change for the better. When will they decide to serve not money, but humanity?

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 09:21 AM

I agree with you

Well that's me, you, two others on MC and my dog.

Stll.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

George Bernard Shaw

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 09:11 AM

But you make it seem that the two sides are equally right, equally wrong.

No, only the extremists on both sides. They are the ones shouting loudest. I agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 09:07 AM

Guest 8:38
Yes, the Iraqis crave change.

That's the point I've been trying to make.

From above:
You may disagree with the original invasion of Iraq, many people do, but what is happening there now is not a struggle between Iraqis and the US.
Millions of decent people there are trying to build a democracy - read some of the iraqi bloggers - and AQ is trying, at all costs to stop them. It's muslims who are dying and they are being killed by fanatics. What people here are saying is that we abandon these good people to the murderers.

But you make it seem that the two sides are equally right, equally wrong. I have to disagree. It's democracy or the fascism of the jihadists. I don't believe that democracy is outdated. Read the blogs from Iraqis, especially the female ones, they are DESPERATE that democracy succeeds in Iraq. We can help them or leave them to the murdering bastards who will tread on them as they always have done.

AQ doesn't want to punish us for our mistakes, they want to destroy us for what we've got right. Would it be clearer for people here if the jihadists wore brown shirts and jackboots.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:38 AM

Both sides are so busy screaming at each other, entrenched in their own outdated beliefs, that neither care about the Iraquis in the middle who crave change. It's easy to ignore those who have no voice.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:38 AM

Bobert, I'm not waving any one's flag.

So you have a flawed democracy, so does the UK, but there is no comparison with what we have and what the fanatics want. I repeat:

Bush is not the sharpest tool in the shed but your hatred of him is blinding you to what is really going on.

I maybe wrong, but as far as I know the US is the longest lasting republic there has ever been, surely this is something.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:07 AM

Yo, Shakster...

Ahhhhh, "democarcy v. totalinarianism"? Like which side is which?

Like exactly why do you think that the US is so democratic? Some 85% of the representatives now represent "safe districts" that have been so jerrimandered that these folks purdy much have a *pass for life* unless they get caught in a motel room with the wrong person or run over a kid while driving drunk... Which, of course just mean that someone else from the same party will inherit the job... Like how democartic is that???

Or how democartic is it for a Supreme Court, disporportionately appointed by one party call off a recount that would have more than likely elected a president from the opposing party???

Yeah, I love it when Bushheads get out their flags and wave them and talk about what a free and democratic society we live in... Yeah it's free and democartic fir them but they don't represent the majority's wishes but their own little petty agendas...

But you go on wavin' that flag if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:01 AM

Sorry the one above was me as well, as if you didn't know.

Yeah, and our "jihadists" have nukes and they're talking about using them. Our "jihadists" have an "end times" scenario they'd expect to see fulfilled during their lifetimes.

Carol, in all honesty I expect better than this from you.

Who are "our jihadists" and just who are they going to nuke.
If there are parts of the US policy you don't agree with then fight those points but don't get sucked into "my enemy's enemy is my friend" nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:50 AM

This is not about all muslims it's about jihadists .

You may disagree with the original invasion of Iraq, many people do, but what is happening there now is not a struggle between Iraqis and the US.
Millions of decent people there are trying to build a democracy - read some of the iraqi bloggers - and AQ is trying, at all costs to stop them. It's muslims who are dying and they are being killed by fanatics. What people here are saying is that we abandon these good people to the murderers. Bush is not the sharpest tool in the shed but your hatred of him is blinding you to what is really going on.

As for the fundimental christians, I fully agree. However, while they may blow up the odd clinic here and there they are not in the same league.

Whatever flawed decisions have been made does not change the fact that this is a struggle between democracy and totalinarianism.

They don't really want a settlement in Gaza, they don't want the US out of Iraq, they don't want any of these problems solved because it gives them excuses and, yes, it helps with their recruitment. We need to settle some of these issues, not because they demand it, because it's the right thing to do. But be under no illusion this will not satisfy them because their aims are far more.

Littlehawk, you can support Trevor all you want but one day, when there is a chemical or biological bomb in London, Paris, Madrid, New York, Toronto or whereever I hope he's still around so that he can tell us all what to do next.

This isn't a game

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 10:13 PM

Yeah, and our "jihadists" have nukes and they're talking about using them. Our "jihadists" have an "end times" scenario they'd expect to see fulfilled during their lifetimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 10:05 PM

Well, Shakester, you have raised some interstin' questions but one thing that you fail to take into consideration is that right here in the good ol' US o' A, we have folks very much like the jahadists... Yes, the American Taliban is alive and well and livin' throughout America... They belive that God will come and take all the good people in one fowl swoop and leave all the heathens...

Talk about a messed up deal, like what's that all about? Well, I'll tell ya what it's all about... It about racism an' sexism an' fundementalism (Tilabanism), whatever that is???

Yeah, seems that this war is between one extreme right against the other with everyone else gettin' gunned down in the crossfire...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 09:23 PM

100!

Now get off this thread and unite against Trevor! He MUST be stopped!

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 09:16 PM

I doubt that they are all exactly the same, Shakey. We aren't. Why would they be?

There are insane reasons for people to oppose American foreign policy and sane ones. There are insane responses to American military actions and sane ones. Suicide bombings are an insane response.

Do not, on that basis, assume that everyone who opposes America's war in Afghanistan/Iraq is insane. Not so. Some of them are no doubt just as sane as you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:43 PM

And then, most depressingly, after September 11, 2001, you defined your position until it was not just with sometimes, or without sometimes, but actually against quite a bit of the left�people who thought jihadism was in some way an expression of anti-imperialism. There was the reflexive view that somehow the jihadists must represent a grievance or protest against poverty or oppression. Everybody knows what the grievances of the jihadists arethey're very easy to identify. They grieve for the loss of the caliphate. They're not anti-imperialists�they're pro-imperialists. There's an empire they lost and want back. They're offended�deeply, grievously offended�by the sight of an undraped woman or the existence of a Shiite Muslim, or a Christian, or a Jew. These things they consider to be offensive. They believe God gives them the right to erase these things. Let's not understate the fact that they do have deep-seated grievances. But to hear this ventriloquized on the left as some sort of perverse populism was too much for me.more...

Christopher Hitchens

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:34 AM

LOL

Guest, 26 Jul 05 - 10:02 AM is engaging in one of fascism's favorite tactics... demonizing the "other". Guest, 26 Jul 05 - 10:02 AM must be a fascist tryng to disguise him/herself as... well as something.