BS: Old expressions explained

Subject: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Know all.
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 08:36 PM

So the British Navy in the 18th Century had square plates on ships so they would be easier to manage...Hence the expression "Square meal"
"Enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" is also an expression from the British Navy regarding cannonballs......ie....when they used an iron 'monkey' to hold their cannonballs...the constant hot and cold caused expansion and contraction....when contracting...the cannonballs rolled off the 'monkey' so they used brass which was infallible as regards holding the cannonballs.....to freeze the balls off a brass monkey is an impossibility....... so "Enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" is incredulous to say the least.
When a flintlock pistol was fired...sometimes the main charge did not ignite.....only the powder in the pan at the side...hence the expression "just a flash in the pan"

Any more please?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 08:58 PM

There is a site somewhere that has these expressions explained, but of course, tonight I can't find it.

I like the upper crust explaination. Bread was baked in wood or coal fired ovens. The bottom of the oven got covered in cinders and crap. When the bread was taken out, it was sliced horizontally. The nice clean top bit was given to the 'gentry'. The middle bit was given to the poorer members of the community and the crunchy cindered crusts given to the poorest. Hence, the rich were 'the upper crust'.

Similarly, if someone was 'bottom drawer' it was a reference to the habit of poorer people bedding infants in the bottom drawer of the chest. They couldn't afford to get a cradle, having neither the money or the space so bedded the infant in the bottom drawer until it was bigger.

Limpit spent the first 6 months of her life on top of a chest of drawers, there being no room elsewhere in our bedroom for a crib... what does that make her?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: kendall
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:15 PM

That thing about the brass monkey is not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,know all
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:17 PM

Oh yes it is my unknowlegeable friend. it is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:24 PM

brass monkey

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:31 PM

If one works out of doors in minimal clothing, one is usually too tanned and chapped for the feint blue veins in the arms to be seen. Not true of aristocrats; hence 'blue bloods'.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:42 PM

Mack:

Blue blood dates back to the ancient Britons using war-paint made of blue clay called woad. If one's family tree was traceable back to 1066 and beyond, one was clearly a blue-blood. That's my story and I'm stickin;' to it, unless some research proves I am full of it!!

While it is true there was such a thing as a retainer called a brass monkey, it has nothing to do witht he expression and cannonballs. Freezing would tends to make the balls stay ON the brass, not fall out/off.

The bottom drawer and upper crust are suspect to my mind. Why not the upper and lower crusts of a pie, one of which is turned out neat and decorated up and the other merely a carrier of mincemeat?

A-who-is-not-blue-blooded.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:44 PM

This site, usually reliable, says that 'square meal is an Americanism. Alas.

If you really want to know, pm me and I'll tell you where 'OK' comes from. It's too long to post here. At least I think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 10:31 PM

All trades have thier stories . Here are some traditional pottery ones .            
               In the pottery world we have always used a "fettling knife" to claen up the edges on a leather hard pot. Being of fine fettle was all cleaned up. Hence   Your uncles "in fine fettle " meant he was dapper . The american vertion is often "He's in fine fiddle today . "
                One pottery in Ohio in the 1850's used to write on the side of the pots "Ol Korect "       ( All corect). Which was shortened to OK .. ( I know there are tons of other stories for OK but this is one of them ) As you know this tradional potter cant spell either!
                Working to a certain size pot meant you put a stick in some clay near the "turning table" and set a pointer to the finished height and width of the desired pot. Making pot after pot the same was called " Sticking to it " .
                "Turning out ware" was a term for making both pottery and wooden bowls : Pottery on a turning table and wood on a laithe .
                Bunging up the door of a kiln ( Cumbria UK ) was bricking up the door and frosting it with a layer of slurry clay from the workroom floor .
                  A bung of pots was a tower of pots in the kiln ( Yorkshire UK)
                  Turning a pot : turning upsidedown and trimming ( Cumbria UK )
                  Turning a pot :Making it on the wheel ( North Carolina )
                  Throwing a pot : Making it on the wheel ( Modern )
                   Jug : a small spouted vessle for poring under a gallon ( England )
                   Pitcher: a very large jug ( UK)
                   Pitcher : a small or large spouted vessle for poring (America)
                   Jug : a vessel closed at the top to less than 2 inches . (America)
                   Bottle:a vessel closed at the top to less than 2 inches (UK)
               

                   More then anyone really wanted to know . All the best Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 10:48 PM

Hardly, Guy! Fascinating! Tell us more?!

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 11:48 PM

Like I didn't already have 10,000 different ways to waste time, now I'm gonna be stuck for days working my way through the Wordorigins.org site. Gee, thanks Mack.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:02 AM

"Jerkwater Town." When Sam Hill was building his railroad across the American West, he established a watering hole every few miles. He built a well and a windmill to pump the water up to a water tank, with a movable spout. Every 15 or 20 miles, a steam locomotive could find one of these water tanks where it could stop, and jerk the water spout down and fill his water tanks. He also established towns at every well. Hence ... "Jerkwater Town!". CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:15 AM

"The accomedations were POSH!"

This came from New York back in the glory days of the steam ships that sailed between New York and England. In the vernaculiar of the shipping trade, "POSH" stood for "Port Out, Starboard Home." (P O S H ) This meant that the more expensive cabins would be on the port side of the vessel leaving New York, and the starboard side of the vessel leaving England. Why? The sun would rise sooner on the starboard side of the vessel, being to the South, leaving New York and heading East. This meant that you could sleep a little later in the morning without the sun rising! (scrabble anyone!!!) Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:32 AM

All info as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike---

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Shanghaiceltic
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:12 AM

'The cats out of the bag'

Came from the practice of placing the cat o nine tails in a hessian bag after it was made by the mad who was to undergo a lashing. The cat and bag would be handed over to the bosun's mate who would keep it until the punishment started and took the cat out of the bag. A sign of something nasty about to happen.

Kept it clean and ready for use. They were only ever used once, how hygenic can you get.

'No room to swing a cat'

Definately connected with the above. One needed room so the cat could be whipped back and brought down on the offender.

'Rubbing salt into the wound'

Following the lashing salt was rubbed into the mans' back, a cheap form of antiseptic not an additional punishment.

'Ship shape and Bristol fashion'

Bristol in Avon was a major sea port for the Atlantic trade. They prided themselves on running and maintining their ships so they would survive the sea crossings.

'Navy cut' as in tobacco. Tobacco was not normally smoked at sea on a warship, there being rather large amounts of gunpowder around.

So tobacco was rolled tightly in a canvas roll and bound, then soaked in rum and dried. Sailors would cut a 'quid' (yes that is a much used expression too) with a knife to chew. Hence Navy Cut tobacco.

Spitkids were placed throughout the ship. Woe betide the sailor who spat and missed, considered as an insult to the Crown they could end up seeing the cat come out of the bag.

'Gone doolally' Gone mad.

Comes from the time of the Raj in India where there was a mental home in a town called Dolahly (at least I think that is how it is spelt).

'A right lash up' Badly done.

After sailors were woken to come on watch on warships their hammocks had to be neatly and tighly trussed up and put in the netting around the upper gun deck. This was used as a form of protection during battle. On more modern warships when hammocks were still used again they had to be neatly and tighly trussed up for stowage. Badly trussed hammocks earnt the ire of the inspecting Chief or Petty Officers.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 02:16 AM

Does anyone know the origin of the expression for something being full, as "chocker block" or sometimes referred to as "chuck a block"?

I have a vague recollection that this expression originated in the lumber industry on the west coast of North America, but I have never been able to find out anything further.

Is it true that the word "golf" originated from "Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden"?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 03:43 AM

Chokker... and all the other meanings of the term blocked, means that there is no more 'purchase' on a double block-and-tackle, the pulley blocks are touching each other, and so the tackle must be dissembled and re-rigged. Tedious.
Do not try to explain this to someone with a blocked nose. They will have no interest.

Nippers were ships boys and when the anchor was being weighed, their job was to tie (nip) the capstan cable and the anchor cable together, and then untie it a coule of yards on and run back and do it again. And again. And again. A gang of boys.
Am I making myself clear? The anchor cable did not go around the capstan, much too thick to bend. The endless capstan cable ran alongside it and was tied to it with hundreds of temporary 'nips'.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 03:54 AM

"Blue blood dates back to the ancient Britons using war-paint made of blue clay called woad. If one's family tree was traceable back to 1066 and beyond, one was clearly a blue-blood. That's my story and I'm stickin;' to it, unless some research proves I am full of it!!
"

Woad isn't clay; it's a plant. It's not very good as a skin dye, and almost certainly wasn't used by the Brits, unless they were daft, which is of course perfectly possible. The Brits, if they ever did use woad, stopped shortly after the Roman invasion of 43AD. The country was Saxon (and called itself England) when Billy the Bastard invaded, over a thousand years later. And most of the uppercrustocracy dated to the invasion (very few) or afterwards- the whole purpose of the conquest was to nick the peasants from the native bosses.

Apart from that, it was reasonably accurate, so I will not comment on your faecal plenitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 04:00 AM

To nick, in the sense of to steal, derives from the laws governing the Derbyshire lead mines.

The mines were usually vertical shafts, with a winding gear called 'stows'. If a miner found someone else's mine that was not being worked, he could apply to the mining court, the Barmoot, to take it over. A notch or 'nick' would be cut on the stows at weekly intervals. If the original owner had not recommenced working after three weeks, the mine was 'nicked', that is confiscated and passed to the new claimant.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: rich-joy
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 04:18 AM

re the "Bristol fashion" expression :
I had heard it was to do with the practice of having the mooring ropes going right round the boats (under the hull) to help keep them upright during the tidal variations (I think Bristol has MAYbe the second highest tides(???), after the Bay of Fundy) ... is this not true then??!

And so now you're telling me that the tour guide on Nelson's "Victory" was "pulling my leg" too, when he gave the traditional Brass Monkey explanation to us, in 1977 ... jeez!

And I really did believe that the Ancients daubed their skin with Woad ... how silly am I?!


OK, OK, so what about "pulling my leg" - and the variation "pull the other one, it's got bells on it" - origins?


Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 04:37 AM

Actualy, Amos, you have to prove the blue-blood theory.

Nobody quite knows the origin of posh. The Port Out, Starboard Home has been shown to be false. A more likely theory is that it comes from Romani for money.

Doolaly is because soldiers stationed in the town of Deolal were driven mad by sunstroke.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 05:50 AM

SSSHHHEEEEUUUUHHHH! The next thing you're 'gonna tell me is that chicken's don't have lips! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Torctgyd
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 06:26 AM

"show a leg" from the petty officers on Royal Naval ships demanding proof that the occupant of the hammock in port was not a skiving sailor but his 'wife'

Brass monkey story I heard was similar except that the balls fell off brass monkies due to the differential contraction between the admirals brass monkies and the iron cannon balls when the admiral went up north. The lesser captains had wooden monkies and these didn't contract and unseat the iron balls.

Square meal definitely comes from the square plates used on RN ships (but like stiff upper lip may well have been coined in the US).

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:04 PM

That's correct Torctgyd,

Iron balls on iron monkey in a pyramid... Same rate of contraction, balls stay put.

Iron balls in a pyramid on a brass monkey... Brass contracts more than iron and squeezes the bottom layer, till a certain point is reached when the balls are explosively ejected, flying all over the gundeck.

Got that from the guide when I visited HMS Victory, and he assured me it is historically correct.

Victory, of course, carrying Nelsons flag, used brass.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Know all
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:07 PM

When people were hanged in the 16th 17th centuries....the relatives would run and grab their legs and body..putting extra weight on them so that they died quickly......hence the expression "Hangers on"

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:29 PM

Deckman, afraid Le Scaramouche is right -- even though the port-out starboard-home is an extremely popular explanation -- especially here in the UK. Catspaw wrote the following on (coincidentally) another thread dealing with the origins of the brass monkey/balls expression...

As to POSH.....I was absolutely sure it meant port-out,starboard-home until a few months back when on another thread, Sourdough pointed out the following from the American Heritage Dictionary:

"Oh yes, Mater, we had a posh time of it down there." So in Punch for September 25, 1918, do we find the first recorded instance posh, meaning "smart and fashionable." A popular theory holds that it is derived from the initials of "Port Out, Starboard Home," the cooler, and thus more expensive side of ships traveling between England and India in the mid-19th century. The acronym POSH was supposedly stamped on the tickets of first-class passengers traveling on that side of ships owned by the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company. No known evidence supports this theory, however. Another word posh was 19th- and early 20th-century British slang for "money," specifically "a halfpenny, cash of small value." This word is borrowed from the Romany word påh, "half," which was used in combinations such as påhera, "halfpenny." Posh, also meaning "a dandy," is recorded in two dictionaries of slang, published in 1890 and 1902, although this particular posh may be still another word. This word or these words are, however, much more likely to be the source of posh than "Port Out, Starboard Home," although the latter source certainly has caught the public's etymological fancy.

Bummer huh?

I found Spaw's message while searching for the following info I had posted in a different thread (but thought Spaw's info was different/interesting enough to be worth posting here again as well):

posh       Swanky. Deluxe. [A direct borrowing of the form but not the sense of Romany posh, half. Brit. Gypsies commonly, if warily, worked with Brit. rogues. Shiv, Romany for "knife", came into Eng. through this association. Similarly rum go is at root Rom go, "a Gypsy thing," hence, a queer thing. Brit. rogues came to know posh in such compounds as posh-houri, half pence, and posh-kooroona, half crown, so associating it with money, and from XVII to mid XIX posh meant "money" in thieves' cant, the sense then shifting to "swank, fashionable, expensive" ("the good things money can buy").]
       NOTE: A pervasive folk etymology renders the term as an acronym of p(ort) o(ut), s(tarboard) h(ome), with ref. to the ideal accomodations on the passage to India by way of the Suez Canal, a packet service provided by the Peninsula and Eastern steamship line. The acronym is said to explain the right placement of one's stateroom for being on the shady side or the lee side of the ship. On the east-west passage it is true, the ship being north of the sun, that the acronym will locate the shady side (though time of year will make a substantial difference). The lee side, however, is determined by the monsoon winds, and since they blow into the Asian heartland all summer and out of it all winter, only the season can determine which side will be sheltered. The earlier dating of posh as glossed above sufficiently refutes the ingenious (but too late) acronymic invention. As a clincher, veterans of the Peninsula and Eastern, questioned about the term, replied that they had never heard it in the acronymic sense.

-- from A Browser's Dictionary
   A Compendium of Curious Expressions & Intriguing Facts
   by John Ciardi (published in 1980)

Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:42 PM

Well my dates were all screwed up; but yer tellin' me the ancient Briton did NOT paint himself blue with woad? I am stunned!! Bert's whole claim to fame was singing the Woad song on Mudcat Radio!!! LOL

What's the use of wearing braces,
Boots with buttons, shoes with laces
Coats and ties you buys in places
Down on Bronckton Road?
What's the use of shirts of cotton?
Studs that always get forgotten?
These affairs are simply rotten!
Better far is Woad!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:46 PM

No, we are disupting the connection with blue blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: curmudgeon
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:49 PM

Evidently, some of you who chose to ignore Kendall's comment on brass monkeys, also failed to go to the link posted by Bev and Jerry.

Fact is, nothing was ever stacked aboard a ship, except cargo in the holds. Everything on deck was tightly secured to prevent it being tossed about in high seas, especially things that rolled, like cannonballs - Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:51 PM

Yes, the last thing you needed were cannonballs rolling about on deck, especially at night time.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:59 PM

Letting the cat out of the bag:

I always understood that this one came from the custom of selling a piglets in a bag at a fair. An unscrupulous seller might put a cat in the bag instead of a piglet, and so when you inspected your purchase, you may discover this secret, by letting the cat out of the bag.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:00 PM

Wickipedia Encyclopedia reports:

"The first finds of woad seeds date to the Neolithic and have been found in the French cave of l'Audoste, Bouches du Rhone (France). In the Iron Age settlement of the Heuneburg, Germany, impressions of the seeds have been found on pottery. The Hallstatt burials of Hochdorf and Hohmichele contained textiles dyed with woad. Julius Caesar tells us (de Bello Gallico) that the Britanni used to dye their bodies with woad (vitrum), which made them look terrible in battle. The Picts got their name (Latin Picti which means painted folk or possibly tattooed folk) from their practice of going into battle naked except for decorations made with woad war paint. Yet others feel that woad was used as an astringent. It produces quite a bit of scar tissue, but heals very quickly, and no blue is left behind. It may have been used specifically for closing battle wounds."


It was the Picts, then; and if you can't believe Julius Caesar, man, who CAN you believe?? :D

But I retract my assertions about woad having anything to do with "blue blood". It appears it was a Spanish brag relating to the paleness of skin and blueness of vein in pure-bred aristos:

"A translation of the Spanish sangre azul attributed to some of the oldest and proudest families of Castile, who claimed never to have been contaminated by Moorish, Jewish, or other foreign admixture; the expression probably originated in the blueness of the veins of people of fair complexion as compared with those of dark skin; also, a person with blue blood; an aristocrat."

(From "Phrase", a UK etymology website).

Sorry. But I like my woad version better even if it is fecal! LOL

A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: MMario
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:07 PM

don't know the origins - but shit does NOT come from "store high in transit" - another urban legend.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:15 PM

A few modern expressions which need no explanation, from www.despair.com:

Cluelessness
There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.

Delusions

There is no greater joy than soaring high on the wings of your dreams, except maybe the joy of watching a dreamer who has nowhere to land but in the ocean of reality.

Dreams

Dreams are like rainbows. Only idiots chase them.

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent, but you'd be a fool to withhold that from your superior.

Overconfidence

Before you attempt to beat the odds, be sure you could survive the odds beating you.

Power

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. But it rocks absolutely, too.

Pretension

The downside of being better than everyone else is that people tend to assume you're pretentious.

These guys are a crack-up!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:15 PM

Sangazure was the surname of the spoilt brat Alexis' bride in G&S's the Sorcerer.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 03:39 PM

Note to Guest_KnowItAll: As I heard it, that situation is the source of the phrase 'Pulling my leg'. Never checked for authenticity, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 03:48 PM

On checking, it seems that the phrase "You're pulling my leg" only goes back to the 1800's. It's an English reference to tripping some one as a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 08:26 PM

It was not 'Pull a leg' that was used on Georgian period ships but 'Show a leg' If the leg was hairy then the possibility was strong that it belonged to a sailor.

Cannon shot was never piled for reasons already given. The brass plates were flat and had circular recesses to hold the iron shot. Brass was used because brass striking iron could not make a spark.

Even in todays modern navy only brass tools are allowed in magazine areas.

Another expression not often used today is 'To have another shot left in the locker'

Refers to the use of what was called ready use lockers placed near guns to hold a small amount of powder. There was just enough in the RUL's to bring a ship to action and fire whilst the powder monkeys started their run to the magazines which were well below the water line of the ship.

'Tightwad' today has the connotation (or did have) of being tight fisted. Again it comes from the use of extra wadding used to hold the ball in place in a muzzle loading gun. Tighter wadding meant a bit less powder could be used as the seal between the powder charge and the ball in front was better and a better explosive force could be developed.

A much older expression 'to pick a quarell' goes back to the days of the crossbow. The quarrell or quareau was an armour peircing bolt used against mounted knights.

The Pope I believe at one time tried to excommunicate Richard The Lionheart because his armies used crossbows which the Pope stated were unchristian. The Lionheart was not excommunicated as he pointed out it was being used against non-christians. I am not sure of the veracity of that story. Maybe someone will know more.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 08:50 PM

Our friend GUEST Know All is just full of urban legends and folk etymologies, isn't (s)he?

Incidentally, any time you see an explanation of a word which makes it an acronym from some interesting story--take it with a grain of salt. No, better, take it with a POUND of salt!

The practice of referring to things by acronyms is only a development of the last ninety or so years, since about World War I, when I assume it grew out of in-group reference to the names of government boards and bureaus.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 09:41 PM

Shanghaiceltic, I believe you are right about the crossbow. There was quite a debate at the time and I believe the Genoans got into trouble over it once or twice.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: HuwG
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 10:36 PM

Also from mediaeval times: "To get on one's high horse", which nowadays means to react indignantly, or to take an agressive stance in argument.

In battle, something the size of a carthorse was required to carry a knight encased in armour (and sometimes armour for the horse also) at anything like a gallop. This was the destrier, or "high horse".

To save its strength, the destrier wasn't usually mounted until the moment of battle arrived. It was usually led by the squire or varlet, while the knight pottered along on something hardier and more willing, the ambling palfrey.

When the knight "got on his high horse", combat was imminent.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 10:59 PM

I've always enjoyed these threads as you can tell from the post that was quoted above. It's great to feel stupid after feeling so absolutely sure you have some secret answer that makes you look brilliant......kinda' humbling.

Snopes is an excellent site for debunking the bullshit and I love reading there. So........before it comes up here and I am already surprised it hasn't...........CLICK HERE for the Snopes page dealing with the word fuck....which is NOT an acronym.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 11:29 PM

HuwG, where did you get that from?
The armour worn in battle by knights actualy weighed less than a modern infantryman's kit and the weight was distributed evenly across his body. Surprisingly agile. Nobody would have been stupid enough to wear something like you describe had their life depended on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: rich-joy
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 12:22 AM

still want to know about "you're pulling my leg" origins!

but I found this to add to that old chestnut, The Brass Monkey Debate :

" HMS Victory and Greenwich used to have an educational piece as part of the tour, according to them a 'Brass Monkey' was a small brass cannon from the time of transition from bronze to iron, usually swivel mounted that used stone ball or cylinder shot, both of inconsistent size and shape. 'Freezing a brass monkey' either refered to the cannon shrinking enough that *some* shot wouldn't fit so slowing the reload, or 'Freezing the tail off a brass monkey' was the tail being the handle at the end of the gun used for aiming which reportedly broke when levering a piece around on the pivot.

Another story is apparently pawn brokers where originally known as brass monkeys and the three brass balls hung outside the shop has something to do with the idea ..."

From: "charles" (via cache on Google : USENET ARCHIVE)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: How do they make worry balls?



cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:32 AM

As I understand it, the 3 gold balls that traditionally hang over a pawnbroker's door were taken from the di Medici coat of arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:46 AM

"it grew out of in-group reference to the names of government boards and bureaus."

More likely from the stencil marks on sides of cases.

~~~~~~~~

A medieval knight in full fighting armour, afoften ter his years of training as a squire from a young lad, could leap onto his saddle from the ground without using the stirrups. Those huge suits of thick plate armour from a much later period, ARE as heavy as all shit, and were used for only tournament jousting, and the rider was usually lifted into the saddle by means of an A-frame style of crane.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:52 PM

The myths about medievil armour just refuse to die. If only everyone had to join the Sealed Knot, or SCA or such like for a while....


The average combat load ( weight of kit etc) of fighting soldiers has remained fairly constant since at least the roman legions, if not the Greeks and before.
People can only carry so much weigh for a long period and remain combat fit, and it doesn't make much difference if you were marching with Ceaser, Wellington or todays Commanders.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: HuwG
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:39 PM

OK folks, I did indeed exaggerate a bit about the weight of armour carried by mediaeval knights. A really full set weighed about forty-five or fifty pounds, well-distributed. (They could become hot and wearisome after a while, but for short periods at least, a fit knight could run, get up from falls or even do acrobatics.)

The horse tabard could be an unwieldy piece of kit. I don't have any weights to hand, but another fifty pounds seems about likely, if only the front of the horse was protected, or a hundred for all-round protection.

However, war-horses did have certain desirable attributes. They were usually stallions, with their own testosterone-fuelled aggressive reaction to noise and stress. They did indeed stand high, allowing the rider an extra inch or two of reach. And they were valuable, and were preserved for the moment of battle.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: lady penelope
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 06:06 PM

Woad - the blue dye comes from the leaves of the plant and not the seed (crushed seed apparently gives you a pale pink dye). The initial infusion from the leaves has to have urine added to it to make a) actually fix as blue and b) fix in the cloth that's being dyed. It takes about 1 - 2 weeks to dye a piece of cloth with woad (depending on how deep a colour you want).

Some how I don't see this as a good material for painting yerself with. There may be the possibility that it was used for tattooing depending on the fixatives that they may have used. Once woad has fixed, it's apparently quite a stable colour. But the quantity needed to make the dye (and the fact that you can only use the plant at certain times during it's two year growing cycle) would have made it reasonably precious.

TTFN Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:41 PM

Snopes also disputes the cannonball storage idea as inaccurate:

"Somebody's fanciful imagination is at work cooking up spurious etymologies again. In short, this origin for the phrase "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" is nonsense because:

Not even the venerable Oxford English Dictionary, records a usage of "brass monkey" like the one presented here.

When references to "brass monkeys" started appearing in print in the mid-19th century, they did not always mention balls or cold temperatures. It was sometimes cold enough to freeze the ears, tail, nose, or whiskers off a brass monkey. Likewise, it was sometimes hot enough to "scald the throat" or "singe the hair" of a brass monkey. These usages are inconsistent with the putative origins offered here.

Warships didn't store cannonballs (or "round shot") on deck around the clock, day after day, on the slight chance that they might go into battle. Space was a precious commodity on sailing ships, and decks were kept as clear as possible in order to allow room for hundreds of men to perform all the tasks necessary for ordinary ship's functions. (Stacking round shot on deck would also create the danger of their breaking free and rolling around loose on deck whenever the ship encountered rough seas.) Cannonballs were stored elsewhere and only brought out when the decks had been cleared for action.

Particularly diligent gunners (not "masters," who were in charge of navigation, sailing and pilotage, not ordnance) would have their crews chip away at imperfections on the surface of cannonballs to make them as smooth as possible, in the hopes that this would cause them fly truer. They did not leave shot on deck, exposed to the elements, where it would rust.

Nobody really knows where the phrase "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" came from, but the explanation offered here certainly isn't the answer.

Last updated:   9 January 2001"

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:59 PM

Hi Amos, see my reference to ready use lockers where small amounts of powder would be kept, small quantities of round shot would also be kept available. I agree the gunners would try and keep their iron shot in good condition and free of rust which has a blistering effect on cast iron.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: HuwG
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 10:16 PM

Amos, Shanghaiceltic et al.

I believe that warships of Nelson's day and thereabouts, held at least some of the shot for their cannon in "garlands". These were flat wooden racks recessed into the decks along the centreline of the ship. When not in action or at exercise, wooden lids covered the garlands. The garlands plus lids stood only a few inches proud of the decks themselves, allowing sailors to stand or walk on them, sling hammocks over them etc.

At a guess, ten or perhaps twelve rounds per gun could be carried in the garlands. Don't forget that shot is quite heavy. When clearing for action in a hurry, you would not want sailors staggering up the ladders each carrying a twenty-four or thirty-two pound lump of metal. No doubt more shot would be carried in the holds, but it is reasonable to suppose that after twelve broadsides, the battle would be won or lost.

I believe the concept of "ready-use" lockers came later in Queen Victoria's time, with brass cartridges and QF ("quick-firing") guns which could get through ammunition faster than the hoists could fetch it from the magazines. The ready-use locker could allow the guns to indulge in a minute's rapid fire in case of emergency.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Shanghaiceltic
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 11:12 PM

HuwG you are correct, I used the term RUL as that was a term I was used to when I was in the RN.

Having shot and more importantly even small quanitities of powder on the gundecks was the reason why most sailors were only allowed to chew tobacco.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 11:31 PM

certain expressions need no explanation.
P G Woodhouse (sp?) had a few I have always loved.
A " Vapid Waistrill " comes to mind

as dose making a social blunder or a " Floater " . Gosh I wonder what that comes from ??

More soon , Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 11:21 AM

In Adelaide, they sell a 'Meat Pie Floater' - which is a meat pie served in a large bowl of pea soup.

On Naval Gins (sorry Guns!!!!) I remember a story in a collection of volumes (The Golden Pathway) produced in the 1920's or thereabouts which was about a gun that broke loose and the resultant efforts to tame it like a wild beast.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 05:20 PM

Blue bloods : Is a verified medical condition that results from inbreeding. It was true of very few Europeon royals but predominant for the highest class (Brahmans) in India going back several hundred years ago. You will note that not just ancient Indian artists painted Brahmans blue.
The condition was associated with hemophelia bruises but that is not always the case.
There were some cases known among the very poor in Appalachia but it is not politically correct to stereotypically inflict this fact upon West Virginians today.

.................


"Shit fire and save matches"

I suppose if one did shit fire they could conceivably save on matches or any other such lighter device.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 06:00 PM

Whaaaat?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 06:40 PM

A Cacadragon?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:25 AM

"Shit fire and save matches"

Corruption of saftey matches????

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Torctgyd
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:47 AM

As a kid in nw London we used to play the game of knocking on a front door or ringing the bell and then running away (oh what fun we had!). We called it Knock Down Ginger. This seems to have been a fairly local expression; any ideas where it came from?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Raedwulf
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 04:28 PM

Speaking as an active re-enactor, may I clear up the armour nonsense?

Full harness of around the 15thC weighs something around/over 100 lbs. A mate of mine regularly represents himself as Edward IV (including at Tewkesbury, one of the biggest UK re-enactments). I can't provide you with independent verification, but he has told me that his harness is made as closely as possible to match Eddie IV's armour (can't remember what the 'model' is...) & weighs around 140 lb. This is heavier than most re-enactors wear (98-112lb is a typical figure), but Simon has also spoken slightly disparagingly of 'lightweights' wearing slightly cut down (this normally means not bothering with some of the chain mail that is still part of harness at this period) kit!

Full harness is still very mobile. It is well articulated, the weight well distributed, & most importantly, the knight was a highly trained martial artist used to wearing the bloody stuff! The notion that you needed a crane to get on horseback is yet another Victorian distortion. There was a notorious attempt on the part of a Victorian blue blood (dare I say "effete"?) to stage a medieval tourney. Neither he nor his friends had any training, the weather mostly washed it out, & he (Viscount Edington, Edginton? Something like that...) just about bankrupted himself, silly bleeder.

Although Robin is half right. Armour strictly-for-tourney was thicker & less flexible than that for regular warfare (in particular, helms for tourney developed a very distinctive shape (thicker & shaped to deflect at the front), & were heavy!). Not to the extent of needing a crane if you were properly trained, though! In any case, tourneys were usually illegal...

There is a lengthy passage from a medieval treatise that includes the quote above about being able to vault onto horseback without using the stirrup (personally I suspect they still used the saddle for leverage!). It is accurate. Unfortunately, I can neither remember the title of the treatise, nor the full quote, but the "vault" is more or less the last in a lenghty list of accomplishments that, yes, includes acrobatics, handstands & such like. This is not at all unreasonable if you realise that these guys trained with the same dedication as any full time soldier, martial artist, or Shao-Lin monk!

HuwG - Whilst I wouldn't quibble with your naval opinions (generally, I'd agree) your medieval musings smack more of guesswork than research. Horse armour was "barding", not a tabard, which is a sleeveless, sideless, cloth over-vestment typically worn by heralds! You don't seem to be able to decide just what you think medieval armour weighs. Etcetera. And your explanation of "high horse" I'm highly dubious of too! I very much doubt it dates back to medieval times. It might, again, represent a Victorian misunderstanding of earlier history.

Palfrey can be literally translated as "light horse", but the corollary is not "high horse". Knight's mounts were not "carthorses", which generally don't gallop very well, not being bred for that sort of activity. Destrier (probably the premier re-enactors of jousting in the UK, whose MC/spielman is a good mate of mine) use more or less normal horses (insofar as my inexpert eye is a judge of horseflesh - Shires & Clydesdales they are not!) & still wear full harness.

Admittedly, modern horses are certainly larger than their medieval predecessors. I have heard it reckoned that the medieval warhorse was probably about the size of a polo pony, or a little larger. But certainly medieval warhorses were not 'carthorses'. Destrier as a word, according to the OED, stems from Latin dextra "right hand", which refers to the fact that the squires would lead the horse with their right hand. Again nothing about 'high'. Many other professions use 'horses' of some description that are not necessarily equine (carpenters, frex). Virtually any bench that you sit astride whilst working has been termed a horse, & your explanation very much smacks (like all the acronymic origins) of a modern back-formation. And since horsehair was often used as a cushioning material, I would be inclined to wonder whether "on your high horse" (which in my experience tends to have a judgemental, rather than confrontational, context) has a legal origin.

Moreover, whilst the notion of knights as being wealthy & upper class is very de rigeur & romatic, the reality is that most of them were about what the modern view of a country esquire is. Working middle class on the make, if you see what I mean. How many could afford a second riding horse, after having equipped themselves & their retinue appropriately, is open to debate. Most of the time armour would not be worn. The 'honourable' preliminaries would allow more than ample time for a knight to get armoured, & if there was not felt to be any imminent threat they would not have been wearing full harness (it takes 5-10 minutes to don, with a competent squire - like modern warfare, medieval war was 98% standing around bored, punctuated by occasional 'brown' moments of frantic activity!). No great impediment, then, to riding your warhorse at the walking pace that allows the archers, men-at-arms, & baggage train to keep up... I'm less than convinced, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: The Curator
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 04:37 PM

I have often heard it said that when Oliver Cromwell was at his work in Ireland he ran into a bit of opposition and had to to rethink his sea landings on the southern bays of Ireland. To this he said he will reach shore BY HOOK OR BY CROOK which he did, two bays on the southern shoreline. Anyone else ever hear that one ?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Raedwulf
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 04:39 PM

Guest, Know all - perhaps you should rename yourself "Know nothing" Hangers on? What rubbish! Hanging was hardly a standard method of execution in the 16th & 17th centuries, no matter how much lynching might be beloved of spaghetti western directors. It would certainly not have engendered the modern phrase you attempt to explain.

Without bothering to research at all, I would suggest, purely from my knowledge of history, that "hanging-on" is more likely to derive from the practice of a servant "hanging on" to his master's stirrup (even the horses tail in some tales!) as an aid to keeping up with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:02 PM

Hanging has always been pretty standard.

Cromwell might have said by hook or crook, but certainly didn't originate it. However, this sounds like a legend.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:04 PM

I have seen several references that say "by hook or by crook" comes from the old English forest laws. Pesants were not permitted to cut firewood but were allowed whatever they could pull down by hook or by crook.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 08:27 PM

If you want to see what a medieval Destrier was capable of, look at the white Lippen... (spelling!) Stallions. Most of their moves are claimed by their trainers to date back to natural horse movements that Destriers were trained to perform on command (and sometimes of their own free will) in combat. Biting, kicking, etc - the horse was about as destructive as a tank, and well capable of taking out lightly armed foot-soldiers before those damned 20 foot pikes became all the rage!

I have seen a clip of an old B&W movie (it was inserted in something else - I suspect it may have been originally from that Russian epic silent movie about the history of German Invasions) in which the fully kitted up horses and riders are lashing out at foot-soldiers around them - sweeping thru them like a scythe - freaky shot and one wonders just how many extras were hurt for real.

I have seen 16-18 hand high Shire Horses at the gallop - a hundred of them coming at you fully armed would definitely be brown pants stuff, and would seem like an earth quake - and if just 4 pulling a waggon at a fast trot could shake the ground under my feet that much... definitely a terror weapon!

A hand is 4 inches so 64 inches at the shoulder is BIG... the neck towers above you when they are on all fours - wouldn't like one to rear and lash its front feet at me - tin hat or not!

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 09:43 PM

Foolstroupe:

The breed of horse sounds like Lippizaners, except that the dictionary says they're 'compact'.

The movie sounds like Sergei Eisenstein's Alexander Nevsky, if I remember the name correctly. Except that the Teutonic Knights were done in when the ice they charged across broke.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 20 Aug 05 - 10:09 AM

War horses have always been trained to kick and bite, they are just plain nasty during a fight. Marbot, for example, rode a a very bad-tempered mare called Lissete that bit the face off a Russian soldier at Eylau.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 20 Aug 05 - 10:40 AM

Alexander Nevasky it could be. It's not silent, but it is in Russian, and Prokoveief's soundtrack for it might have been a bit out of place in the programme..

Quite alot of the acronym explanations do see to be good examples of contrived ridiculous acronym phenonoma Or crap.....

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 12:21 AM

Yes I had thought it might be "Sergei Eisenstein's Alexander Nevsky", but Briz31 showed it awhile ago. I don't remember seeing the particular fighting sequence I mentioned, but then I don't remember if I manged to stay awake for the umpteen hours either... :-)


"Lippizaners" that's the one - they may not be big, but they are nice horses. I'm not sure that a war horse had to be huge, the heavy cavalry of medieval times didn't tromp around at full speed for hours like light cavalry (as was discovered in the C13 in the middle east!!!), but were solid boned and hardy.

There was a story that some of the original horses were rescued during the end of WWII - read it in the Reader's Digest, so it must be true!

The Lippizaners are only claimed to be doing many of the original moves, not even descended from them. We had a troupe of them on the Gold Coast a while ago, but I think the owner went bankrupt some years ago. I think the horses are still doing their act around Australia somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 09:15 AM

Raedwolf. I have to agree with the guest on this one as there was a recent programme on the TV in the UK which explained the use of 'Hangers on' at hangings and how the person being hanged would sign over his worldly goods to those of his family who hung on his legs to make his death much swifter than if he/she were left to choke to death slowly.
Perhaps a little research may have been good for you to do after all.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 03:12 PM

I once heard that 'time immemorial' was legally defined as being a certain date, before which no-one could be expected to know exactly when some thing happened. The date was some time in the Middle Ages, but I can't remember when it was. Does some one know?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 03:37 PM

Isn't it more likely to have ment simply 'since goodness knows when'?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 03:45 PM

Well, that's what it generally does mean; but I heard somewhere that a date had been set as a legal definition, and I thought someone might either know, or be able to find it.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 05:27 PM

Time immemmorial is a time before anyone living can remember...ie no-one has a memory of that time.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:02 PM

O.K question for you...where did the expression "Hoisted by his own petard" come from?. No prizes but who knows?
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:19 PM

shakespeare, of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:57 PM

PETARD
A small bomb used to blow in a door or gate.
If it wasn't for its appearance in Shakespeare's Hamlet: "For 'tis the sport to have the enginer / Hoist with his owne petar" and its fossil survival in the rather more modern spelling to be hoist with one's own petard, this term of warfare would have gone the way of the halberd, brattice and culverin.
A petard was a bell-shaped metal grenade typically filled with five or six pounds of gunpowder and set off by a fuse. Sappers dug a tunnel or covered trench up to a building and fixed the device to a door, barricade, drawbridge or the like to break it open. The bomb was held in place with a heavy beam called a madrier.
Unfortunately, the devices were unreliable and often went off unexpectedly. Hence the expression, where hoist meant to be lifted up, an understated description of the result of being blown up by your own bomb. The name of the device came from the Latin petar, to break wind, perhaps a sarcastic comment about the thin noise of a muffled explosion at the far end of an excavation.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 03:18 PM

Thanks Beardedbruce....Tony Robinson gave us the answer in his series of programmes on the worst jobs ever which is being repeated on UK TV at present. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 06:43 PM

Time immemorial is more or less what's meant by the old expression, "A long time ago, the memory of the oldest inhabitant runneth not to the contrary". Or something close to that.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:12 AM

When references to "brass monkeys" started appearing in print in the mid-19th century, they did not always mention balls or cold temperatures. It was sometimes cold enough to freeze the ears, tail, nose, or whiskers off a brass monkey. Likewise, it was sometimes hot enough to "scald the throat" or "singe the hair" of a brass monkey. These usages are inconsistent with the putative origins offered here.


It would have been difficult the refer to monkey's naughty bits in print in the 19th century, when the dialogue of villains was rendered as "---- your eyes! Take THAT, you d------!"

However, some facts. Let's assume a cannonball is 10cm in diameter. The differential temperature coefficient of expansivity between cast iron and brass is about 7 micrometres per metre per degree. Also assume that the balls were stacked in the tropics, near Brighton, at a temperature of 45C, and that they have reached the bloody cold waters of the north east Scottish coast, and the air is at -20C.

That's 65 degrees change, so the differential contraction between the monkey and the balls is 65x7x.05 micrometres per ball, or approximately a thousandth of an inch. Each ball has changed by about one-and-a-half thousandths in diameter.

If balls were to need to be so accurately aligned to remain stable, I don't think they'd last long in a swell.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST, Jos
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:21 AM

On 'time immemorial'

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/time_immemorial

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:37 AM

Swearing WAS different then, Paul. Nowadays it's about sex or bodily functions, but in Victorian times (and earlier) blasphemy was it. Damn was very bad, that's why Sam Hall was so shocking!!

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:39 AM

Nowadays it's about sex or bodily functions, but in Victorian times (and earlier) blasphemy was it

They spell Sunt with a C, which is damnable. I think that's 17th century. It's not that they didn't use sex and bodily fuctions- it's just that the blasphemy got printed, but by God and Mary, it's lost its power now, the very Devil it has!

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:33 AM

Blasphemy was considered worse, much worse, I didn't say they never used sex and stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:27 PM

Degeneration I call it...pure degeneration.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 04:47 PM

GS - I consider myself thoroughly told off. It was on TV! It must be true! And you even (fail entirely) to name the program that said so!

{rollseyes}

Now try producing some real evidence. Because, of my own curiousity & volition, I went looking for a source. The only thing I could find outside of a bare defintion, is that Partridge's Slang dictionary says it is first recorded in the 16/17thC. I cannot find any explanation of the the origin of the phrase.

Not your assertion, not my supposition, not anything. So produce some genuine attributable evidence. I only suggested that "know-nothing"'s explanation was unsupported rubbish. MY theory is only an educated guess. Where's YOUR evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 07:26 PM

Oh Raedwolf..I have so failed...to name the programme. Please trust that I actually did see the programme but fail in remembering the name of it. Perhaps some other helpful catter in the UK can remember it for me. I don't consider that I was thoroughly telling you off either..merely supporting something from my own framework and suggesting a little research.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: The Walrus
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 08:42 PM

I haven't read most of the rest of this thread, but, has anyone dealt with 'Bombing Along' for moving at a good speed?
The version of the story, as I understand it.
In the early stages of the Great War, the method of trench clearing involved riflemen and 'bayoneteers', each bay having to be cleared by fire power and by use of the bayonet (or less regular improvised weapons) when fighting corps a corps.
With the advent, first of large quantities of smaller grenades (as opposed to the longer and slightly unwealdy Grenade MkI<1>), and later of the Mills type grenade, clearing of fire bays and dugouts became a much quicker affair. The trench clearing parties now consisted of riflemen, bayonet men and bombers.
The use of grenades was known, in the British Army as 'bombing' (There had been some complaint - from certain Regiments with influence - about referring to the bombers as 'grenadiers').

Any other theories?

Walrus

<1> The Mk.I Grenade was originally issued for siege warfare (Royal Engineer issue only), it was in a long cane handle (unwealdy in the confines of the trenches) and were detonated by a percussion system, dangerous when throwing from confined spaces and requiring a good direct strike to detonate.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: kendall
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 09:24 PM

I've heard many explanations for "OK". One of them is this: President Martin Van Buren came from the town of Old Kinderhook New York. He was said to have signed papers with his nickname, "Old Kinderhook" or OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 09:52 PM

The best explaination of ok I have heard was in science fiction...


Because of the (future ) use of the metric system, the time travelers that went back used the term "0 k" ( zero kilometers) to indicate something that was unused, totally new, or like new. Since the people of the era they visited were using the English system, when they were overheard to say "ok", it was thought to be slang. As the time travelers had set themselves up as upper class ( wealthy) individuals, this soon caught on, and thus...

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 12:46 AM

An official etymology was announced about 10 years ago. One of the various stories was that Andrew Jackson initialed state papers with "OK" for 'Oll Korrekt'. It was a lie. He was quite literate. However... In New York state there was a little town called Knickerbocker where folks from New York city went to escape the summer heat. Even there, the dog days were so bad that people just sat on the porch and drank iced lemonade. The local paper, The Knickerbocker Times, knew this, of course, so during the hottest part of the summer they published many games, puzzels, and humourous essays. They are the ones who started the Andrew Jackson canard. That was the very first print appearance of "OK" in any country.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:39 AM

To be at loggerheads with someone...

The battle of Blore Heath, in the Wars of the Roses, was fought in Shropshire in 1459. As usual, Yorkshire won, they won all the battles except the ones that mattered. The outcome was that Richard III became king, but that belongs in the other thread.

Quite near Blore Heath (about 2 miles) is a place called Loggerheads- it's the nearest village, and the Lancastrian army would have marched through it, if not camped there for the night. The area supported the Lancastrians, so would probably have collected feudal levies on the way.

So did the phrase come from the battle?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: kendall
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:56 AM

Many of our expressions come from the sea.
Scuttlebutt. Gossip. A scuttlebutt is a water keg.
By and large refers to the set of the sails.
Sailors refer to the toilet as "the head". In the days of sail, the relief station was located at the bow ,or the head of the ship.
Hold a turn. To belay a sheet or halyard.
By the boards. In the early days a ship was steered by boards which hung over the side. Starboard is a contraction of "steer board"
Larboard is the "Lee board". The left side of the ship was the "Port" side, the side that was up against the wharf or pier.
You sometimes hear people say, up against the dock. No, a dock is a body of water between to piers.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: open mike
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 12:15 AM

i have a book called
heavens to besty
if any0ne wants me to
lok up any thing, let
me know
it is a book about
origins of expressions
and figures of speech

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 12:23 PM

My 'Old Expression' is very simply explained !! Its down to my Age !!

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Schantieman
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 12:48 PM

Tony Robinson's TV programme is called The Worst Jobs in the World and featured the dyer, boiling up crushed woad leaves to make a brilliant blue dye. Smells awful apparently.

HMS Victory does indeed have wooden shot racks on all the gundecks but I suspect they've been put there for effect. It doesn't take a particularly rough sea to get the ship pitching and/or rolling and the damage to feet and bulwarks would have been severe. Shot was stored in the shot locker in the hold where it would be used as ballast. Captains who cared about the sailing performance of their ships (Lord Cochrane, the model for Hornblower, for one) used to get their ships' companies to redistribute the shot to change the trim of the ship. Jack Aubrey did this too, so it must be true ;-)

Larboard originated as 'ladeboard' - the side of the ship (board) over which it was laden and unladen. It had to be done on that side coz on the other - steerboard - side was the steering oar which would've been damaged if ground against the jetty. (Of course, it was on that side coz most of the steersmen were right handed). The term 'Larboard' was replaced by 'Port' in the nineteenth century to avoid occasional confusion with 'starboard'.

I agree with Shanghaiceltic's views on the cat. The prisoner used to have to make his own from a length of rope. Thieves were further punished by having the tails knotted so they'd bite into the flesh more effectively. No-one wanted a thief on board.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 07:29 PM

The best 'Old Expression' is a smile - self explanatory.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:56 AM

Here's an old expression - at least it's been heard around here a few times before...........

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:56 AM

100!

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:58 AM

Thats OK jenny - I looked at this one earlier but couldnt think of any thing sufficiently witty for a 99th !! You are welcome to the 1ooth !!

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,xavior
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 03:56 PM

Hey.....no one answered the person who wrote in wondering where the
expression "chocker blocked" came from. Anyone know. x

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:47 PM

yes they did...right under the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Rowan
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 08:04 PM

GUEST,Boab's "All info as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike---"
reminded me of two that are common around where I live:
"Useless as tits on a bull" and "Useless as a plough upstairs".

The continuing posts about cannon balls and brass monkeys is intriguing for a couple of things:
1 Everybody, with the possible exceptionof one poster who made reference to Brighton and Aberdeen, seems to have associated cannon and their ammunition with ships (and the Victory seems central to many notions) when there is plenty of evidence (ie stories) about land-based use of them,
2 Everybody, again with the possible exception of the poster who started the reference to monkey's tails and other anatomy, seems to give little credit to the possibility that much earlier people had the same sense of absurd wit that we value, exemplified in the more modern Goon Show; the absurdity of linking the feeling of bitter cold to both balls and a brass monkey is exquisite.

But to add to the list, a couple from the days of cutting tall timber manually.

"Top notch" is used to describe "the best" and there are two situations where it applied literally. The tallest trees in Australia's forests (and the one measuring 366' when felled was regarded as the tallest in the world) are Eucalyptus regnans and had very large buttresses (my grandparents had a piccie of the base of one that took 39 blokes to stretch arms to reach around it) that reached a good 40' up the trunk from the ground. To fell the tree and have a log that was round, two axemen would operate from opposite sides cutting a notch as far up as they could reach. Into the notch they'd ram a 6' long horizontal plank, climb onto it with their axe and another such plank and stand on it to cut another, higher notch. This would be repeated until they got to the desired height when they would fell the tree. Woodchop competitions still celebrate this technique. To get to the required height the fastest was to be top notch.

The other situation was when the log was being sawn longitudinally and gave rise to another expression often used in Australia. Before mechanical milling, the log that was going to be sawn was positioned over a pit and sawn by two men pulling the opposite ends of a long saw; crosscut saws (with a particular set to the teeth; another 'term') were used when cutting across the log and rip saws (with a quite different set to the teeth) were used for cutting along the log.

The "top dog" would stand on top of the log and place the rip saw in the top notch where the cut was to start. The "under dog" would stand in the bottom of the pit and pull the saw down. The top dog would then pull the saw back up but, to maintain rhythm and speed, would not bite the saw into the timber as hard as the under dog could when using gravity to assist his pull down. The underdog also got covered in sawdust from all this, as well as doing the tougher labour.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 08:07 PM

Lovely explanation, Rowan! Thanks!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 11:47 PM

The Mrs. and I saw a "top dog" and "under dog" demontrate that technique a couple of years back. Any extended time working as "under dog" had to be one of life's almost unthinkable occupations.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 12:05 AM

It's just possible, though, that the concept of observing a top dog and an underdog at work goes back waaaay before saw-pits...



A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Rowan
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 12:41 AM

Life's a bitch, isn't it Amos.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 03:39 AM

Re. hangers on.

In the Newgate Calendar (a collection of records of infamous villains, Dick Turpin, Jack Shepherd & such) there is frequent reference to friends and family hanging on to the victims legs to hasten death. The standard execution was hanging but this meant a slow death by strangulation, the 'modern' method of neck-breaking had not been developed. The victims were referred to as being 'turned off'.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 09:38 AM

I've seen so many plausible and implausible, delightful and mundane expanations of old expressions bunked, debunked, rebunked, junked and defunct, that no longer believe ANY of the explanations. I think Snopes captured the matter well:

"Most of us feel a bit of a glow when we think we're in possession of information others aren't privy to, and when a titillating or apt story is thrown in behind the trivia, these things just take off."

(But - carry on!) (Oh - sailors in the British navy had to tote or "carry on" their personal gear, when boarding a ship. Often, the morning after a last night's spree ashore, a groggy sailor would hesitate to try to determine if he was about to board the right ship. The presiding officer would holler ... hence the commonly used ... blah, blah, blah ... ).

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 09:39 AM

In other words - have fun! (From the acronym, F.U.N., or "F---ed Up Nonsense").

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 10:18 AM

square plates = "Square meal"

so following on logically, why didn쳌ft the navy have square balls to stop 쳌eem rolling around?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 01:56 PM

When I was at (UK)school in the fifties we were taught that in medieval times, market days were held & people bought piglets sewn into a bag called a 'poke'. Thus you were never to buy 'a pig in a poke' because it could have been a cat, hence (as mentioned above) the buyer could warn others about the swindler by 'letting the cat out of the bag'.

If not true, it shows you should never rely on teachers!

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 02:22 PM

Do your own homework, research, and thinking, for the love o' PEte, insofar as possible. There is so much trash on the Internet about false histories (for example, the railroad-gauge deriving from Roman chariot widths story) that you can get a head full of false data and end up stupider than you would be if you'd never even found the Internet in the first place.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 02:37 PM

Yeah, but you and 97.8% of the people you meet will THINK that you are wise, and that's all that matters.

Btw - re: "for the love o' Pete". This expression refers to a well-known gigolo of mysterious origin who appeared in Paris around the end of WWI - or, according to some sources, around the end of the Roman conquest of Gaul. Lonely patrician women would ...

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 03:26 PM

ROFLMAO!! It actually derives from an Old French vernacular word "piet! piet!" which was used as a nickname for small housecats by Breton farmers and their wives. Circa 1278.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: MMario
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 04:00 PM

I'm waiting for the day some of the "explanations" and "histories" humourously posted here at the 'cat show up on someone's internet page as "truth".

already seen a couple cases of recently composed verses being touted as "traditional" - and tracing them back to challenge!s or speciulative postings by 'catters. (though it wasn't intentional on the part of the people claiming that - it was confusion and inadaquete reading)

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:02 AM

Regardless of how much it weighs, armour is dangerous ! Last year, I read a newspaper report about a man ,in full armour, at a re-enactment or something in, I think, Sweden, who was struck by lightning-----Shocked witnesses reported a hissing sound, and steam coming from the eye-slits in the helmet !! Uuugh !!
    As to the origins of " OK " ----My own pet theory is this :
   Many early Immigrants to America , came from Scotland. Now, when a Scotsman wishes to indicate assent or approval to / of something, he invariably says " Och ! Aye ! " , and it is easy to see how this could have mutated into " OK ", don"t you think ??? At least, it"s more feasible than some of the rather far-fetched and convoluted explanations that I have encountered thus far !!

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Black Hawk not logged in
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:26 AM

I spend my holidays in Scotland & have a static caravan on a small farm.
The most enjoyable evenings have been when the farmer & I enjoyed a 'wee dram' together sitting outside as the sun went down. Between yarning etc. there would be pauses when we just sat & enjoyed the view over the Loch. During these pauses the farmer would sigh now & again & I would hear a quiet 'Och Aye'. My children think of this as a typical scotsmans expression.
Alas, my friend died last year but I still have memories of a real gentleman to treasure. He was definately OK !

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 11:47 AM

Without yet having read right thru this fascinating thread,I just wanted to mention one resource that my waters tell me hasn't yet been referred to yet. As a means of answering these questions.




Wait for it.




books.



some people masy have heard of these,especially those who grew up B.I.

Got it?

No? yes?


B.I. - Before the Internet




There are loads of books that give phrase origins,some with detailed sources,too many without.

And books are sometimes more authoritative then the big I.






      Ivor



PS There are also amazing,little-known places that are a treasury that kind of stuff,going under wierd names like

   library

    and

   bookshop.

   Definitions of both are available in the infinite glories of www.

Subject: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Cindee Berry
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 10:48 AM

I'm trying to find the origin of an expression we used as kids ... and unfortunately, I'm not quite sure if we got it right.

We said some form of   envoir ... or Omvure ... or homvoir ...

phonetically   ahm-ver    or   ahn-ver

that meant anything from 'shame on you' to 'that's bad' or 'I'm telling'

Any thoughts or suggestions on this? We were raised in Montana.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: kendall
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 02:51 PM

The use of the word "cannon" is improper when referring to the armament aboard a ship. A cannon is used in a fortress on shore, and the same type of weapon aboard ship is called a gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:37 PM

I've been in and out of this thread at various times, and I might have missed someone else giving this, but I remembered that "blue blood" or "blueblood" was questioned earlier, so I looked it up in WorldWideWords which is an excellent source of reliable word knowledge, run by Michael Quinion. He says:

Unlike so many other expressions, this one is well documented.

It's a direct translation of the Spanish sangre azul. Many of the oldest and proudest families of Castile used to boast that they were pure bred, having no link with the Moors who had for so long controlled the country, or indeed any other group. As a mark of this, they pointed to their veins, which seemed bluer in colour than those of such foreigners. This was simply because their blue-tinted veins showed up more prominently in their lighter skin, but they took it to be a mark of their pure breeding.

So the phrase blue blood came to refer to the blood which flowed in the veins of the oldest and most aristocratic families. The phrase was taken over into English in the 1830s. By the time Anthony Trollope used it in The Duke's Children in 1880, it had become common:

    It is a point of conscience among the — perhaps not ten thousand, but say one thousand of bluest blood, — that everybody should know who everybody is. Our Duke, though he had not given his mind much to the pursuit, had nevertheless learned his lesson. It is a knowledge which the possession of the blue blood itself produces. There are countries with bluer blood than our own in which to be without such knowledge is a crime.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:24 PM

Hope that helps, Cindee.


Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Escapee
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 11:51 PM

Many of these phrases are explained in The Oxford Book Of Ships And The Sea, Oxford University Press, Peter Kemp, editor. Some of the explanations are pretty dull compared to this thread, but they're much easier to swallow. It's amazing to me how many common words and phrases come to us from the days of sail. But it was a pervasive technology. Where we see one container ship with a crew of maybe a dozen or so, our great-grandparents would have seen dozens of ships and hundreds of sailors. And its nearly gone, except for the way they talked.
E

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: HuwG
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 02:43 AM

Just re-read some of the earlier posts:

Time Immemorial does (or did) have a specific meaning in English law. In 1276, it was fixed by Statute that any custom or right which had been exercised since before 1189 (i.e. the end of the reign of Henry II and the accession of Richard I) should be regarded as having been in use since "time immemorial", and therefore did not need any specific grant to be exercised.

A requirement was that any such right or custom should be "continually exercised" i.e. could not fall into disuse and be subsequently reinstated. The difficulty of proving this over seven hundred years led to a change in the nineteenth century. It was established that any right which had been continually exercised for at least twenty years (or thirty years where the right had been exercised against a claim by the Crown) should be regarded as having existed since "time immemorial".

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Rog Peek at work
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM

I understand that 'getting the wrong end of the stick' originated from the Romans use of a santary sponge on the end of a stick to wipe their behinds. The stick was kept in a bucket of water and re-used until it became too foul. Consequently, one took great care not to take hold of the wrong end of the stick.

Incidentally Tofctgyd, I grew up in Cirencester in Gloucestershire and we called the custom of knocking on doors and running away 'knock down ginger', so it was not just local to London.

Rog