Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions

Subject: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:18 PM

In a recent thread on a song in German, Q posted a link to a seventeenth century song. My friends are going to like this one; it's old and it has parts for both flutes.

Apparently the song involves a bird and a woman or girl who sitting at a door.   

I understand the lyrics pretty well until I get to the third verse. I would like German speakers to look at the words and at my translation and make helpful comments, if possible.

~1680
1. Es flog ein klein' Waldvögelein Der Liebsten vor die Tür,

A little forest bird flew to the beloved woman at the door

Klopft an mit seinem Schnäbelein Gar still mit aller Zier.

It knocked quietly with its bill, apparently using an ornamental door knocker.
Ich bin weit geflogen In Kummer und Sorgen groß,

"I have flown so far, amid grief and care
Doch still und ganz verborgen Der Liebsten in den Schoß."

yet quietly and concealed (perching in) the beloved one's lap"

2. "So grüß dich Gott im Herzen, Du schöns Waldvögelein!

woman: "greetings from my heart, little forest bird!

Vertreibst mir viel der Schmerzen, Daß du bei mir kehrst ein.

It drives away my care that you have come


Bist du so weit geflogen In Kummer und groß Gefahr,

You have flown so far amid grief and danger
Dir bleib ich stets gewogen Mit großer Liebe gar."

I look kindly upon you, with great love"


3. "Bin g'flogen über Berg und Tal, Doch mit sehr großer Müh,


bird: I have flown over mountain and valley, amid great trouble


Und such mein Lieb ganz überall, Trag Sorg, sie sei nicht hie.

and seek my love everywhere. Take care, she is not here."
Herzlieb, bist du vorhanden, Tröst mich Waldvögelein!

Lady: heart's love, since you are here, comfort me, little bird!

In dein schneeweiße Hände Schleuß du, Herzlieb, mich ein!"
?
-------
So I guess that whole story is that the bird cannot find its mate and so it decides to stay with the woman, who holds it in her snow-white hands. Or am I missing something?

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 06:05 PM

A little forest bird flew to the beloved woman at the door
It knocked quietly with its bill, with all due decorum
"I have flown so far, amid grief and care
yet quietly and secretly into the beloved one's lap"

"Greetings from my heart, beautiful forest bird!
It drives away my care that you have come
You have flown so far amid grief and danger
I look kindly upon you, with great love"

"I have flown over mountain and valley, amid great trouble
and seeked my love everywhere, worrying she might not be here."
heart's love, if you are there, may the little bird comfort me
Clasp me in your snow-white hands, my heart's love

I'm not surprised you're having difficulties with verse 3. I can't really work out who is speaking. I think the first two lines are by the bird (who seems to be the lover's voice, or even the lover himself), the last two by the lady, addressing her love over the little bird's head, so to speak. I may be wrong, though. The last line might be spoken by the bird again. Slightly confusing, as ancient lyrics are wont to be ...

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: Eichenhof
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 09:48 PM

At last a practical use for what I learned in Mittelhochdeutsch in grad school!

My interpretation of verse 3 is:

Verse 3 is sung by the bird alone:
"Bin g'flogen über Berg und Tal, Doch mit sehr großer Müh,
I have flown over mountain and valley, indeed with very great effort,

Und such mein Lieb ganz überall, Trag Sorg, sie sei nicht hie.
and seek my love everywhere, I am worried she might not be here.

Herzlieb, bist du vorhanden, Tröst mich Waldvögelein!
Heart's love, if you are here, comfort me, (your) little forest bird!

In dein schneeweiße Hände Schleuß du, Herzlieb, mich ein!"
Do hold (surround) me with your snow-white hands, my heart's love.
[ schleuß as dialect variant of schließ ]

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 11:15 PM

Eichenhof, could you help me with Gar in verse 1? The capital 'G' Gar an old form?

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 04:58 PM

'Gar' simply means 'very' in this context.

Eichenhof, your 'indeed with very great effort,' is closer than my translation. However, you aren't claiming the song's language is Mittelhochdeutsch, are you? You just found it helped you understand better?

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 07:21 PM

But a bird cannot have snow-white hands. Mysteriouser and mysteriouser.

I wonder if this song came from a play or puppet show. It has so much dialog.

Further interpretations, anyone?

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 07:57 PM

I forgot to mention - "schleuss" (in the last line) is not a dialectal form for schliessen. My Langenscheidt's says that a Schleuss is a sluice or lock. As a verb in 1680, it probably meant something like "enclose".

Whoever said that "sie sei nicht here" was spoken by the bird is right. It's the weak subjunctive, and the bird is worried that its mate might not be there.

What about "vor die Tur" in the first line. At present, "vor" is supposed to take the dative.

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: gnomad
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 05:27 AM

Leenia: If my long-ago German lessons serve me rightly "vor" was one of the group of prepositions taking either acusative or dative.

Which to choose depends, I think, on whether the subject is merely in position, or in motion, but for the life of me I cannot remember which way around it goes. Someone here will know, Im sure.

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 06:46 AM

OK, the beloved woman is the Virgin Mary, the forest bird is the human soul. Is it in code because it was sung by underground Catholics in a Protestant area?

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 07:45 AM

The song is in New High German language, a dialogue between two lovers. The forest bird, could be a messenger of love, as so often in German folksong, but in the last verse it is revealed we have a simile: the bird is the lover. Maybe he is living in the woods (outlaw?) or a knight errant - there are many possibilities.
The speakers: 1. male, 2. female, 3. male.

Some of your grammatical questions:
leeneia - you must read your dictionary with more care. Schleuse is a sluice, but schleuss is an old infinitive of schliessen (to close, to lock). Here you guessed right: it is to enclose.

"Vor" and "in" are prepositions reigning either the dative or accusative. When used to describe a position (rest), they reign the dative. When used to describe a direction (movement), they reign the accusative. With "in" you have it in English, too. Position: Ich bin im Haus = I'm in the house; movement: ich gehe ins Haus = I'm going into the house.

The snow white hands don't belong to the bird, but to the female adressed by it.

Songs with a dialogue must not have their origins in plays; there are a lot of them going back to times of old (Tragemund's song, or the Blue Stork: song, thread.

Paul - A Marian song in code? I dont think so, it is a love song.

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 07:52 AM

And who is speaking is clear if you look at ingeb.org where the quotation marks show the change of speakers.. In the entire 3rd stanza the lad is addressing his lass. Eichenhof has seen it right in his translation.

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:43 AM

It makes more sense in my eyes if in the third verse lines 1 and 3 are by the bird, line 3 is by the girl, and line 4 by the bird again.

Wilfried, I'm sure you are right about 'schleußen', but is there no connection between Schleuse (sluice) und schließen/Schloss?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:44 AM

correction: It makes more sense in my eyes if in the third verse lines 1 and 2 are by the bird,...

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 03:22 PM

Everyone else is right about "vor". I was thinking on "von" by mistake.

I have a new interpretation. Let us assume that any quotation marks are recent additions and are open to interpretation. Let us also agree with Wilfried Schaum that the bird is the lover. Then perhaps the third verse is saying:


Bird: "Bin g'flogen über Berg und Tal, Doch mit sehr großer Müh,
"I have flown over mountain and valley, amid great trouble"


Bird: Und such mein Lieb ganz überall,
(and seek my love everywhere)

Lady, (teasing) Trag Sorg, sie sei nicht hie.
                too bad, she isn't here (not really)

bird: Herzlieb, bist du vorhanden,
      (Heart's love, you are right here!)

Lady: Tröst mich Waldvögelein!
       Snuggle me, little wood-bird!

bird: In dein schneeweiße Hände Schleuß du, Herzlieb, mich ein!
      (hold me in your snow-white hands, heart's dearest!
---------------
This puts the words "Trag Sorg" in the mouth of the right character and explains why "Sie sei nicht hie" uses the weak subjunctive.

I admit this is getting so complicated that it would need to be acted out, but why not?





















Lady: heart's love, since you are here, comfort me, little bird!

In dein schneeweiße Hände Schleuß du, Herzlieb, mich ein!"

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 06:31 AM

When I read the thread title I assumed it meant 'Waldvogelein for sale' - and I wondered what kind if instrument a waldvogelein was.

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 06:49 AM

Trust a native speaker and linguist - I stand by my exegesis. Why make a text more complicated than it is? I live with and in this language for more than 62 years, with German and other folk songs about 50 years.
The subjunctive is necessary because of oratio obliqua = dependent speech. The use of the subjunctive is now widely forgotten in modern German everyday speech.

3. Bird: "I'm looking for my love everywhere and am afraid she couldn't be here. But if you are, console me birdie and enclose me in your white hands." That makes a lot of sense!
Note the difference: "tröst mich Waldvögelein" (apposition to me): console me, the birdie and "tröst mich, Waldvögelein" (direct address): console me, oh birdie!

Wolfgang - schließen/Schleuse same stem. Having seen a sluice working it is obvious. Old form of schließen in our hymnal: "heut schleußt er wieder auf die Tür ..."

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 01:02 AM

Re" I wondered what kind of instrument a waldvogelein was."

There is such an instrument. It is a kind of recorder, only 3 inches long and very high pitched. You play it by dipping the lower end in a stein of beer, then blowing and fingering in the normal fashion. The result sounds quite a bit like a starling in a lyrical mood.

I don't have one for sale, though.
---------
As for the song, I have decided that if the third verse makes sense, it does so in an awkward fashion. So be it.

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 09:54 AM

I have found a much longer version (many verses added later) which makes it clear that in all of the third verse the bird is speaking. Wilfried's idea ( "tröst mich Waldvögelein" (apposition to me): console me, the birdi) is the correct one.

The first two translations have been incorrect here (BTW, I had made the same mistake when reading it). "Me" in the third line of verse 3 refers to the bird.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 10:08 AM

Danke sehr fuer die Erklaerung.
Thanks for the clarification.

Now I'm going to e-bay to look for a Waldvogelein-blockflote and a beer stein.

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 01:41 PM

Isn't the word from einschliessen? Encircle?
(Mostly lost my German)

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: moongoddess
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 07:03 PM

My daughter, who teaches high school German thinks the translation is pretty much on target, with "Trag Sorg" meaning "I carry a burden".

Subject: RE: Es Flog Ein Waldvogelein - questions
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:22 AM

[ich] trag[e] Sorg[e]; leaving out "ich" is poetic licence, omitting the "e"s is found often because of the metre.
"Encircle" or "enclose" isn't wrong, but literally it is "lock". Anybody having been in love will know the feeling of a passionate embrace so strong that you think you can't breathe anymore.