I've upset someone with my Chord Convert

Subject: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Trouble at Mill
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 03:39 PM

I had a Chord Converter on my website - most of you will know the type - two
circles of card with the twelve notes going round on both cards. Original
key on outside card and new key on the inside card.

I've just received a phone call followed by this Communication (below)

I have removed the converter

I'm now 51 and first came accross this method of converting Chords/Keys at
school about 1970

---

---

My Name is Marc Oglesby i am the inventor of the chord converter you have
published on your pages http://www.btinternet.com/~troubleatmill/conv.htm i
now respectfully ask you to remove it as i have sole copyright on this item
as recorded at the British Patent office 17th May 1995 No. GB95086266.5
If you do not remove this in 48 Hours from now 20/09/2005 i will take legal
action against you.

Your Faithfully
Marc Oglesby

---

---

http://www.btinternet.com/~troubleatmill/conv.htm

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: the fence
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 03:42 PM

Most people will realise you were just helping them out, unfortunately the owner of this 'converter' seems a little narrow minded.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 03:47 PM

I cannot believe the concept is new. I have at least one book that tells you how to make one out of cardboard. I have bought variations of these things for years. I notice his copyright is dated 1995. I would check that out with the appropriate agency. I think he is just bullshitting you. I would ignore this guy, but that's just me.

Mick

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 03:49 PM

What a load of bullflop... legal action my butt!

Put it back up, and let them chew ya!

Email it to me while yer at it, and I'll put it on MY web site too!

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 04:08 PM

Hmm! I wonder about this guy's claim.

I don't know exactly what your chord converter was like, but back in 1952, when I bought my first guitar (a $9.95 Regal with a $5.00 fiberboard case), the guy at Myer's Music threw in a free pick (never used it), a copy of Nick Manoloff's How to Play the Guitar, and a Nick Manoloff, Special Patented Chord Wheel.

It consisted of two round pieces of heavy cardboard about eight inches in diameter, fastened together with an eyelet in the center. The disk on top had rectangular holes in it, labeled "Tonic," Sub-Dominant," "Dominant," plus a couple of other holes with labels like "Dominant 7th," "Double Dominant," etc., and inside that (closer to the center) it had the relative minor chords. The bottom disk had chord diagrams printed on it (major, minor, and 7th chords), arranged in the Circle of Fifths. It was sort of a circular chord slide-rule. Dial a key, and it showed you what chords to play. I absorbed my first knowledge of music theory from that gadget.

I know you can patent gadgets and gizmos, but somehow I don't think anyone can patent or copyright the Circle of Fifths or any other aspect of music theory.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 05:16 PM

I agree with the above posters that this guy is probably full of it - the cycle of fifths is a basic cornerstone of western tonality, and they have had those disc-converters for absolutely ever. There's no WAY it was only conceived in 1995.

I can't see how you can get a "patent" on what is basically a diagram, and am pretty sure one can't copyright a concept. Still it would probably be wise to check out application No. GB95086266.5 to see what it actually IS. You could also look in some old music theory books because sooner or later you will find this table, which should blow him out of the water.

I'm not a lawyer but I think the guy's a troll. (Did he provide you with a valid address & contact number?)

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 05:21 PM

I haven't had time to read through the UK Patent Office's website, but there's more info here: http://www.patent.gov.uk/patent/index.htm

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 05:36 PM

This appears to be an English law issue. Welsh and Scottish law are the same in this respect.

Well, if you go to the Patent office website and plug that number in (I cut and pasted, no chance of error) it says "publication number invalid".

Of course, if it is a patent, then copyright is irrelevant, and a patent owner would probably know the difference.

If a threat of patent action is made, then the person threatened may start a so-called "threats action" against the person threatening, so informed patent owners hardly ever write like this. They write "May I draw your attention to patent specification (number) a copy of which is enclosed".

So on balance I think you ought to write to this guy and say

"I am concerned by your email. I have checked at the Patent Office and find no patent of that number in force. May I trouble you for a copy of the specification? May I also draw your attention to Section 70 of the Patents Act 1977 as amended by Section 12 of the Patents Act 2004 and invite your comment? I should of course value your full and correct address shoud it transpire that I might have a cause of action under those sections. The chord wheel has of course been well known and publicised for many, many years, certainly prior to 1995."

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 05:46 PM

"you ought to write to this guy"

Don't reply to spam... just delete his email, repost your chord wheel and think no more of it...

If he continues to email you, report him to his ISP as a spammer and request that his account be suspended...

That'll fix his little red wagon

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 06:20 PM

hey were around when I was a kid, too. And I am 58.

Richard has given you excellent advice. He knows whereof he speaks.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 06:27 PM

The Application number Oglesby has provided seems not to be valid.

http://webdb4.patent.gov.uk/patents

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 06:39 PM

Richard Bridge said that already Peace....

:-)

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 06:50 PM

Worldwide Search for Patent Owner Marc Oglesby

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 07:25 PM

I saw those years ago. I also have a linear red & yellow slide rule with the same info on. I can't dig it up right now.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 07:33 PM

Sorry Richard.

Thanks, Clinton.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: number 6
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:04 PM

Well, that all said and done ... put this chord converter back on your website troubleatmill ... I'd like to see it.

sIx

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:11 PM

What I'd like is a free transpositong thing!

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:13 PM

Here ya go, Sorcha.

http://www.banjolin.supanet.com/strings.htm

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:36 PM

The gadget referred to in either circle or linear form will assist in transpositions - adjust the two bits to the start and target key, then just read off the relative notes.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:40 PM

No no...you mis understand....I can do it w/o that chart....what I want is to be able to put the notes in a prog and click Enter.....save me the hassle.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:45 PM

Ahhhhhhhhh . . . .

Then I have NO idea what you're talkin' about.

lol

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:47 PM

Try again . . . .

http://www.macintouch.com/musicnotation.html

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:51 PM

And again.

http://musicmall.com/cmp/article5.htm

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:55 PM

Once more . . . .

http://www.ceolas.org/tunes/

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 09:46 PM

I like Richard Bridge's letter a lot. It is never a good idea to give in to an unreasonable request, for the simple reason that it encourages even more unreasonable requests.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Mooh
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 10:35 PM

Funny isn't it, how we've all had these devices, homemade and otherwise. I remember an OLD one when I was a teenager, likely something my Dad had made in his youth, and the idea is likely much much older than that. It's just a chart, for heaven's sake!

What's next?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 10:39 PM

I don't know that anyone has yet patented the reef knot. Maybe that, Mooh.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:36 AM

Finale would do it...for $270.00!! NOT. Don't see a transposition prog at Ceolas....Noteworthy has one, but it is a pain to use. Cheaper than Finale tho.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:37 AM

Yer up way past your bed-time

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:38 AM

Yup...had coffe at the gig....and found the things listed at Ceolas.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:39 AM

Chat?

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 04:25 AM

I would also point out that a UK patent cannot be valid if the invention was not novel (or within a convention priority period if first applied for in another country) at the time of application, so my first reaction is that even if Oglesby has a patent that we have not managed to discover (and I did that other search too with the same result), it is likely to be invalid, which would make his threat unlawful, and so make a threats action possible.

The UK has a pre-grant examination process for patents, and I would have expected an examiner to have thrown an application for this alleged patent out as not being novel.

However, there is no necessary registration process for UK copyrights (you can still effect registration at Stationers' Hall, but it achieves pretty well nothing). It is unlikely but possible that Oglesby has purported to register a copyright there and got this number (it does not look like an appropriate form of number). He might then have a valid copyright for his particular artistic work or work of artistic craftsmanship - which could be infringed by copying that particular work, but not by copying any other work (even if that other work was a chordwheel) unless that other work, of course, was a copy of Oglesby's work.

I still recommend writing to Oglesby. He may be genuine, but ill-informed, and a letter might get to the bottom of things which is better than risking litigation on assumptions. He is not a spammer as such, as there is no evidence of random distribution, and no evidence of intent to obtain commercial gain (yet), so what is the downside of writing?

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Tootler
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:42 AM

I suspect that the patent if it has been granted is almost certainly invalid on the grounds of prior art. Possibly also on the grounds of obviousness.

I worked in the UK Patent Office many years ago and although things have changed greatly since then, in my day the only search requirement was on UK patents, so the examiner may not have turned up a prior patent. However, it is still possible to challenge a Patent on the grounds that the alleged invention is already known and has been previously published.

This device is certainly not new, I would also say it is pretty obvious. I came up with the same idea about 20 years ago and made one. Though I have not seen it published elsewhere, that it has been does not surprise me. I used mine for a number of years before I finally threw it away because it was falling to bits.

If you really feel like it, call his bluff.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 06:04 AM

By the way, I have patented the chord of G major: so you'd better not use it in any of your tunes/songs/arrangments. Or pay me a substantial royalty for each use (special discounts apply if you're only practising)

I'm working on a similar patent on some other chords, but, unfortunately, I needed to consult my chord converter to do this, and I found that I was breaching some other patent. Now, how mean-spirited is that?

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 06:44 AM

Richard, when I contacted Stationer's Hall a few years ago to try to register a copyright, they told me (on the phone) that they no longer provided this service. I don't know what the situation is with registering patents there - if any - but I think the only way one can now register a copyright is the good old send-it-to-yourself-via-registered-post route (and the PO sez: don't tape the envelope flap down).

I fully agree with you that this guy should be challenged with a letter querying his actions. He sounds unscrupulous, has obviously caused a lot of anxiety, and should be given a dose of his own medicine. Your sample letter (and everything else you wrote) is excellent and helpful. I hope Graham will follow your advice and then let us all know how it turned out.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Mooh
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:06 AM

...or is the guy so naive to think he actually invented this? Probably just a scam. Mooh.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: GUEST,davetnova
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:28 AM

I wonder if this is the same guy http://www.jenkins-ip.com/mym/autumn2000/correct.htm

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: GUEST,Duke
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:49 AM

Is it possible that he is one of these smart people who registered a patent when no one else had done so before?

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 12:51 PM

This reminds me a bit of the kind of stuff that was going on in the Sixties during the "Great Folk Scare." People claiming copyrights on various folk songs. I understand that at one time, there were nineteen different entities (individuals, publishers, etc.) claiming a copyright on Greensleeves.

For some strange reason, the matter never came to court.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: treewind
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM

I hear he's put the web page back, having established that no such patent exists.

Anahata

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:35 PM

It's up but all the images are broken...

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 03:56 PM

Yeah, I can't get it either. I can get some text, but other than that, just little boxes with Xs in them. I right click on them, click "Show Picture," and still get nuthin'.

Is it me, or the web site?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:25 PM

It's not you Don

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:41 PM

I was messing around with wire the other day and I came up with a cool way of bending it. It's kind of an elongated spiral and, if you pull it ever so slightly apart, and stick a stack of papers between the spirals, the papers stay in a neat little stack.

I better not catch any of you stealing my idea.

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 04:42 PM

Ya gonna fix the borken images?????

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 06:30 PM

Bork, Bork, Bork...

Subject: RE: I've upset someone with my Chord Convert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 06:43 PM

It appears not to be the same Oglesby - since it is spelt Ogelsby.

Info on Stationers' Hall