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Origins: Wild Rose / Heidenroeslein (Goethe)
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Subject: RE: Follett School Songbook Index PermaThread From: GUEST,arnie.spilman@diageo.com Date: 19 Sep 05 - 07:36 AM In the 50's at my primary school we sang a song containing the following lyrics: "Wild red rose, red rose of May on the moorland growing". and "Said the rose I'll prick you now, on the moorland growing" coupled with "Blood was freely flowing". Real Victoriana in style and very redolent of my time in the classroom. There was another, called "The Far Coolians" (perhaps?). Contained lots of references to scottish islands. All very sketchy I know, but could you help? Any info or guidance greatly appreciated. Arnie Spilman
"Far Coolians" is almost the correct phrase - it's from Road to the Isles (click). -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Req: Wild Red Rose of May on the moorland grow From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Sep 05 - 01:07 AM "Road to the Isles" was easy, but how about "Wild red rose, red rose of May on the moorland growing"? -Joe Offer (e-mail sent to requestor about "Road")- |
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Subject: RE: Req: Wild Red Rose of May on the moorland growing From: Snuffy Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:00 AM Sounds like a singable translation of the German Röslein Auf Der Heide |
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Subject: RE: Req: Wild Red Rose of May on the moorland grow From: gnomad Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:38 AM I learned this at school as "Soft red rose, red rose of May" I will try to pull it out of the depths of my memory and come back if I have any luck. I can confirm Snuffy's guess though, the tunes are the same, and the words do translate across (allowing a little license to the translator to make it scan/rhyme). I suppose it could be a translation English>German, but it feels like the other way round. |
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Subject: RE: Req: Wild Red Rose of May on the moorland growing From: Tannywheeler Date: 21 Sep 05 - 10:12 AM Sah ein knab' ein Roselein (needs an umlaut) rot; Rose(uml.)lein auf der Heiden... Oy--my mispent youth. Several verses. Goethe? Schiller? Heine? Someone von Deutschland. Tw |
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Subject: Lyr Add: HEIDENRÖSLEIN (Goethe, Schubert) From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Sep 05 - 12:17 PM Hey, you guys are good. I have to admit most of the German songs I learned were drinking songs, and I don't believe we were supposed to this one. So, can anybody find singable English lyrics? -Joe Offer- Heidenröslein Tune: Franz Schubert, 1815 Another tune: Heinrich Werner, 1829 Lyrics: Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, 1771 1. Sah ein Knab' ein Röslein steh'n, Röslein auf der Heiden, War so jung und war so schön Lief er schnell es nah zu seh'n Sah's mit vielen Freuden Röslein, Röslein, Röslein rot, Röslein auf der Heiden. 2. Knabe sprach: "Ich breche dich, 3. Und der wilde Knabe brach |
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Subject: RE: Req: Wild Red Rose of May on the moorland growing From: asirovedout Date: 21 Sep 05 - 03:08 PM We had to sing the song for a while in school music lessons. I believe the first verse went: Once there was a wild rose gay, On the moorland growing. But a careless boy at play Chanced to see the tempting spray Which the wind was blowing. I hope that helps. I can't remember any more verses (and I'm not even sure about 'tempting'), because I didn't like the song. Mind you, I can hardly remember anything about the folk songs I must have been taught in early schooldays - which is probably good otherwise I might have been put off folk song for life. (However, I've often regretted giving up school music lessons altogether at the age of 12, as you had to in order to specialise in Science subjects.) @ |
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Subject: RE: Req: Wild Red Rose of May on the moorland grow From: asirovedout Date: 21 Sep 05 - 03:25 PM I just sang it to my good lady wife. And now I can't get the tune out of my head! She says her school had to sing that tune with a song beginning: A carrion crow sat on an oak Hoby deri dando If you ever learn this song, you may find that you can stir all sorts of buried memories in audience members of a certain age. Scary. @ Hob Y Deri Dando (click) |
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Subject: Lyr Add: WILD ROSE (Goethe/Münsterberg) From: Jim Dixon Date: 28 Apr 08 - 12:00 AM From A Harvest of German Verse selected and translated by Margarete Münsterberg, 1916. WILD ROSE Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Once a lad a rose did spy, On the moorland growing, Young and lovely to the eye; Fast he ran to see it nigh, Ran with pleasure glowing. Red rose, red rose, red rose red, On the moorland growing. Spake the lad: "I'll pick thee now, Rose on moorland growing!" Spake the rose: "I'll prick thee now: Thou wilt think of me, I trow!— Go, wild boy, be going!" But the boy so wild and bad Broke the red rose glowing; Rose in anger pricked the lad, Rose must suffer him, though sad And her fury showing. Red rose, red rose, red rose red, Rose on moorland growing! |
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Subject: RE: Req: Wild Red Rose of May on the moorland growing From: GUEST,Steve Gardham Date: 28 Apr 08 - 04:15 AM Many of those songs we sang in music lessons in the 50s were foreign translations, Marianina (Italian I think), Red rose, Paul's Little Hen (Norwegian). I have the original booklets somewhere, produced by the BBC for 'Singing Together' programmes. Once there was a wild rose gay on the moorland growing, But a careless boy at play chanced to see the tempting spray On the moorland gro-o-owing Soft red rose, red rose so gay, on the moorla-and gro-o-owing. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,janet, west sussex Date: 19 May 09 - 04:40 PM Once there was a wild rose gay, On the moorland growing, But a careless boy at play, Chanced to see the tempting spray, Which the breeze was blowing, Soft red rose, red rose of may, On the moorland growing. Roughly then he snatched his prize On the moorland growing, After this he'll be more wise, There before his very eyes, Blood was freely flowing, Soft red rose, red rose of may, On the moorland growing. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: Susanne (skw) Date: 21 May 09 - 06:06 AM The Goethe lyrics are usually regarded (and sung) as a straightforward pastoral (?) song about a headstrong child and a flower. However, it has also been read as referring to a rape, the 'flower' being code for a young girl. I could go along with that. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: masato sakurai Date: 21 May 09 - 08:08 AM There have been at least 81 tunes composed to Goethe's "Heidenröslein." Schubert's and Werner's are most famous. All the midis are here. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: Marilyn Date: 21 May 09 - 12:47 PM The most famous setting of Goethe's "Heidenröslein" is the Schubert one and that's the one I learnt in primary school in the 1950s (from the Singing Together series I think). I'm a Schubert fan (understatement) and remember my mother, another fan, singing this when she was pegging out washing! What the neighbours made of that I can't think! Marilyn |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: Ron Davies Date: 21 May 09 - 10:26 PM I'd think a closer translation of the original Goethe poem (without regard for rhyme, of course) would be: A boy saw a little rose A little rose on the heath It was so young and beautiful He ran up quickly to see it close up Saw it with great joy Little rose. little rose, little rose red Little rose on the heath The boy said: "I'll break you, Little rose on the heath". The little rose said: "I'll prick you So you'll remember me forever And I won't let you get away with it" (breaking me)--literally: :"I won't suffer it" Little rose.... And the wild boy broke The little rose on the heath The little rose defended itself and pricked him All his crying and moaning did him no good He just had to suffer Little rose... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,Christopher Hall Date: 29 Jan 10 - 01:14 PM Dear Friends What a lovely memory this song brings from the distant past. Janet Guest (19th May) has written the version exactly as I remember it, except that when I learned it (some 50 years ago!) there was a second verse as follows: Said the boy, "I'll pick you now", On the moorland growing; Said the rose, "I'll prick you now, "That you may remember how Sad I was at going". Soft red rose, red rose of May On the moorland growing. May the God whose tender touch created the rose keep you in the love and grace of His Son Jesus Christ. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,Grateful fellow Date: 07 Mar 10 - 04:05 PM Many thanks for rescuing my sanity - so I'm not the only one who learnt this song at school all those years ago and somehow got it stuck in my head..... Especial thanks to Janet (19May09)and Christopher (29Jan10)who assembled the verses as I recall them. And to Masato (21May09) for the link to the tunes, which confirmed my memory of the Schubert version. At long last I can sleep easy again! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,Denzil Date: 15 Sep 10 - 05:13 PM I feel the first lines must go: Little rose, little rose, little rose red, Little rose of the heather. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,German Date: 15 Sep 10 - 06:11 PM Only Heinrich Werner's melody, in 3/4 time, is commonly sung as a folk song in German-speaking countries. Schubert's (older!) 4/4 melody is considered Classical Music, in spite of its simplicity (including the easy piano accompaniment). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 16 Sep 10 - 11:21 AM When I was in school, the first verse went: Sah ein Knab' ein Röslein stehn, Röslein auf der Heiden, War so jung und morgenschön, Lief er schnell es nah zu sehn... Notice the line 'war so jung und morgenschoen.' This line has been simplified to 'war so jung und war so schoen.' The original says that the rose was young and morning-beautiful. I think the idea 'morning-beautiful' deserves to be preserved. I googled 'Johann Wolfgang von Goethe gedichte' and found a site in German which says that 'morgenschoen' is right. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,German Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:24 PM leenia, you're right. Goethe wrote "morgenschön", and that's how it's usually sung and printed. The "Google quota" is 45,900 : 4,470 in favour of morgenschön; a quota like this you may get for about any spelling error. Ingeb.org is mistaken. The rape question has been discussed frequently. It is undisputed that the poem is about a love relationship with some component of violence, not necessarily physical. Many singers of Heinrich Werner's somewhat sentimental tune choose to ignore this fact willfully. Others, like Goethe himself, think that acts based on archaic emotions should not be measured in legal terms; the victims might disagree. I know a woman who is "morning-beautiful": her wrinkles become more marked during the day, and when she has put on her evening makeup she's quite ugly; hardly a knave would rape her then ... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:37 PM Danke sehr. It's nice to know my German teacher was right. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,Tomfull Date: 30 Sep 10 - 07:49 AM The full lyrics to this song: 1st verse Once there was a wild rose gay, on the moorland growing. But a careless boy at play, chanced to see the tempting spray which the breeze was blowing. chorus: soft red rose, red rose of May,on the moorland growing. 2nd verse Said the boy I'll pick you now, on the moorland blowing. Said the rose I'll prick you now, so that you'll remember how sad I was at going. chorus 3rd verse Roughly then he snatched his prize, on the moorland blowing. After this he'll be more wise. There before his very eyes blood was freely flowing. chorus |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,Georgio, Bangor Date: 27 May 13 - 12:34 PM Once there was a wild rose gay On the moorland growing, When a careless boy at play Chanced to see the tempting spray Which the breeze was blowing. Soft red rose, red rose of May, On the moorland growing. Said the boy:'I'll pick you now, On the moorland growing.' Said the rose: 'I'll prick you now, That you may remember how Sad I was at going.' Soft red rose, red rose of May, On the moorland growing. Roughly then he snatched his prize On the moorland growing, After this he'll be more wise; There before his very eyes Blood was freely flowing. Soft red rose, red rose of May, On the moorland growing. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 May 13 - 10:30 AM Tune: Franz Schubert, 1815 Another tune: Heinrich Werner, 1829 ··· I seem to recall from my 66 years ago school German lessons yet another setting by Friderich Silcher, another well-know lieder-writer and folksong collector, also noted for setting of Heine's "Die Lorelei", and reworking of traditional and "Muss i' Den"? Does anyone else recall this one, or am I misremembering or confusing it with Werner's? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 28 May 13 - 01:22 PM Ten seconds of googling show Silcher's arrangement for male voices, clearly the first tenor being identical to Werner's melody. IIRC, the popular "Loreley" tune is sometimes attributed to Silcher, on the sole grounds that we know of no older source. We had a thread on that. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 May 13 - 01:29 PM Many thanks, Grishka. That is indeed the tune I had in mind; and would explain why it is attribd both to Werner, as above, and to Silcher as I recall it as being in the German Songbook we had in or classes at Hendon County School in 1947. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 28 May 13 - 01:46 PM On second reading, I am not sure whether the arrangement is by Silcher or by the editor. Silcher's name appears on the web page, but apparently in a different context. In fact I cannot find any website that clearly mentions any "Heidenröslein" arrangement by Silcher - are you sure it exists? Silcher is also notorious for (ab)using Schubert's "Lindenbaum" (lyrics by Müller), perhaps you are confusing these two? Our experts may know more. (The native speakers Susanne, Wolfgang, Gerhard, Reinhard, Wilfried, etc. seem to have vanished, but I think some of our American friends can help.) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 May 13 - 05:29 PM No, not sure, Grishka. Hence my question... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,Wendy Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:42 PM Are roses in bloom in May? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: Marje Date: 05 Nov 15 - 09:39 AM The German text doesn't mention May - don't know why it's in the English translations. Marje |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,standchen Date: 23 Jan 16 - 04:40 PM I sung this as a soprano and our copy had these lines (not in order): Saw a youth a morning rose Rose among the heather ......said the youth I'll pluck thee now If anybody knows this (I think the best translation) could they post it here Thanks -Brian |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: keberoxu Date: 24 Jan 16 - 11:20 AM Guest Brian, I don't personally know this version. A quick and dirty Google search shows Natalia MacFarren, who wrote many English translations during the Victorian era for music with originals in other languages. I am having trouble pulling up MacFarren's translation itself, but it does seem that she is the translator: Said the youth, I'll cull thee now, Rose among the heather, Said the rose, My thorn, I vow, Thou shalt feel, 'tis sharp enough, Me thou shalt not gather. Rose, thou pretty rose so red, Rose among the heather. ...that's the only snippet I could look at. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: keberoxu Date: 24 Jan 16 - 11:28 AM ...like pulling teeth, this is. Come ON, google. One verse at a time... Saw a youth the morning rose Blooming in the heather, As her dainty leaves unclose, Straight to gaze on her he goes, 'Twas in summer weather. Rose, thou pretty rose so red, Rose among the heather. Second verse above. Third verse: But the youth impatient culled Rose among the heather; Rose stung sharply as he pulled, But her days, alas, were told, Wounded both together. Rose, thou pretty rose so red, Rose among the heather. Yes, MacFarren is one of the more tasteful translators; there are others whose translations have unintentional humor (howlers) in them. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: Nigel Parsons Date: 03 Apr 16 - 02:09 PM THE WILD ROSE Song by Schubert, words by Goethe, translated by E. Fiske Once there was a wild rose gay On the moorland growing. But a careless boy at play Chanced to see the tempting spray Which the breeze was blowing. Soft red rose, red rose of May, On the moorland growing. Said the boy:'I'll pick you now, On the moorland growing.' Said the rose: 'I'll prick you now, That you may remember how Sad I was at going.' Soft red rose, red rose of May, On the moorland growing. Roughly then he snatched his prize, On the moorland growing, After this he'll be more wise; There before his very eyes Blood was freely flowing. Soft red rose, red rose of May, On the moorland growing. From 'The Oxford School Music Books', Teacher's Manual Senior, Part I by permission of Oxford University Press This version, the one which seems to have been partly remembered from schooldays, appears in Singing Together, Summer 1959 This would fit in with the opening post which mentions school in the 50s. The bit in italics about the source is also quoted verbatim from 'Singing Together' NP |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: Nigel Parsons Date: 03 Apr 16 - 02:44 PM And, just in case, here's the ABC (possibly a little slow!): X: 1 T: The Wild Rose M: 2/4 L: 1/8 Q: 60 C: Schubert N: Words Goethe, translated by E. Fiske Z: NP 3/4/2016 K: D FF FF| (A/G/)(G/F/)E2|EE FG|A2dz|FF FF|(A/^G/)(G/F/)E2|AAB3/2A/|(^G/A/)(B/C'/)A2|(A/c/)(B/A/) (^G/F/) (^E/F/)|(d3/2^G/)A2|EE FG|A(B/c/)d2|Bd GB|(DF/E/)D2| |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,silver Date: 04 Apr 16 - 08:20 AM It seems everybody has overlooked a certain oddity in the German language: Words with the ending -lein or -chen are treated as "it", (even Mädchen = girl). In some cases, "it" has the same pronoun as "he", as opposed to "she". Thus, in the 3rd verse of Heidenröslein: Röslein wehrte sich und stach, Half IHN doch kein Weh und Ach, Musst es eben leiden. translates as follows: Little rose defended herself and stung, Crying and lamenting helped HER none, Had to suffer it anyhow. The rape motif is obbvious. There was no mention of blood in the original poem, but if there had been, it would have been hers, not his. It's been 55 years since I learned the song at school. Didn't understand the meaning then, of course. I remember we translated "morgenschön" in the 1st verse as "sprinkled with morning dew". |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: michaelr Date: 04 Apr 16 - 10:57 PM Guest Silver, you are correct that the diminutive form assumes not the male or female, but the "third gender" (sachlich). Your translation is therefore correct in that the line refers to the rose, not the boy. However, the correct word is IHM (the dative), rather than IHN (the accusative). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,silver Date: 05 Apr 16 - 03:21 PM OK - as I said, it was 55 years ago. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: Mo the caller Date: 05 Apr 16 - 03:58 PM Yes we sang the Schubert tune and a translation similar to keberoxu's at Secondary school. New National Song book possibly. Though I remember the refrain as Rosebud, pretty rosebud red. I know the Heinrich Werner tune as a solemn Communion hymn (Baptist Hymnal) so it feels a bit incongruous that there is also a Pat Shaw dance set to it. Some 'English Dancers' in the US don't feel comfortable with the dance because of the words of the song. Which could drift the thread who knows where. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST Date: 19 Feb 17 - 11:15 AM Adrian I remember singing this version at grammar school in Bristol, in the late 1940's. I left school in 1951. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: MoorleyMan Date: 19 Feb 17 - 01:02 PM By a curious coincidence, this little Lied has been a persistent earworm over the past week or so. Can't think what prompted it... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: Nigel Parsons Date: 04 Sep 18 - 07:31 AM Just another update with another version used in British Schools from Summer 1963 Rhythm and melody THE WILD ROSE Schubert Translation William Murphy (BBC Copyright) Once a boy a wild rose found, Growing in the hedgerow! She, with morning beauty crowned, Bright'ning all the buds around, Gave the boy such pleasure. Dainty wild rose growing red Wild rose of the hedgerow To her, thus, the boy was drawn, Wild rose of the hedgerow! He will pluck her, but she warns She could fight, and with her thorn, She could sting him sadly. Dainty wild rose growing red Wild rose of the hedgerow Then the boy, with no more thought, Wild rose of the hedgerow! Plucked to rose, although she fought, As she stung him she was caught, And each one was wounded. Dainty wild rose growing red Wild rose of the hedgerow Tune as at: 03 Apr 16 - 02:44 PM but in E |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenröslein (Goethe) From: GUEST,Linda TRUSCOTT nee Fletcher Date: 20 Dec 21 - 04:54 AM We sang this in my Liverpool secondary school sitting on P.E. benches (forms) when we had our weekly singing lesson. The teacher was Mrs Scott a plump and strict Welsh music teacher. I am now 71 and she taught us this song , the words and music have stayed with me. Who is Sylvia is another I remember. I was from a poor family and it was unlikely that I would have come across these beautiful pieces of music outside of school. What a loss singing lessons are in schools today. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Wild Rose / Heidenroeslein (Goethe) From: GUEST Date: 14 Jul 23 - 04:12 PM We sang the same two songs also in a primary school in Folkestone, Kent. It is funny how some of these songs from way back stay in your head. How about “We must have safety on the Queens highway”. Anyone remember that one? It was to encourage us to be careful crossing the road. Janice Drew Crotts. (Facebook) |
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