BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 10:10 PM

*grin*...oh, I totally understand your point, Dick...but the very laws we live by every day are decided the same way. Every law on the books probably has someone who doesn't believe in it.

   Just because I can't convince everybody, doesn't mean I'm 'wrong' about the need to draw a line. There is a legal concept of behavior that is prohibited because it disturbs the peace or incites a riot....in other words, stuff you can do alone, or in private gatherings, but which cause too much consternation when done in public.

(Naked girls walking down the street 'can' contribute to traffic accidents....on certain beaches, they are not a serious problem....if you see what I mean.) And playing bagpipes outside YOUR window at 3AM might not meet with approval, no matter how well they're played, or how sincer the piper.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 09:37 AM

In Germany, it would be a question of the context.

As a cartoon accompanying an article critical of a faith it would be considered as free speech.
Someone wearing the T-shirt at a concert of the band would be considered free speech.
Someone wearing the T-shirt walking down just any street would probably still considered using his right of free speech.

Someone wearing that T-shirt ostentatively during a Christian religious procession or in a church would probably be sentenced.
Someone walking with that T-shirt in Bunnahabhain's version down a street with nearly exclusively Muslim neighbourhood would be sentenced for inciting religous hatred.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 11:14 AM

you see?! If Wolfgang & I both agree, it MUST be the right approach!

;>)

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Oct 05 - 11:42 AM

One more and you can invade Poland.

I have heard a recent rumour
That some German's are judges of humour
Perhaps they're confusing
What they find amusing
With the misery that comes with a tumour?

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 08:01 AM

BillD,

"Clever things with double-entendré remarks are one thing: stupid, hateful obscenities are another."


And you will now comment on all the stupid, hateful obscenities piled on conservatives here? Or is it that ALL remarks about conservatives are "Clever things with double-entendré remarks" ?

It always seems that the offensive speech or image that SHOULD be suppressed is that of those who the supresser does not agree with.

I would still rather have the impact of the offensive speech than the supression.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: DavidHannam
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 09:14 AM

Yes. When i hear words like offensive, i cringe. I cringe because just as the bully at school called me big-nose, i called him fatty, being offensive has been human nature since the dawn of time.

We are human afterall. I as you may imagine, get called many names, do i get offended, yes sometimes, do i think that person should be locked up for offending me, no.

Being offensive is what happily makes us human. Laws trying to change that are really the pinnacle of repression.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 10:46 AM

I once saw a tee shirt that said "I'm so horny the crack of dawn looks good." I was amused by that, because know a woman named Dawn. However another I saw said "Smile if you like to fuck." that one reminded me that profanity is the effort of a feeble mind to express itself.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 10:51 AM

"profanity is the effort of a feeble mind to express itself"

What an inane, ludicrous and erroneous statement...

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 11:43 AM

"stupid, hateful obscenities piled on conservatives here?" ...you will note I don't use such. I object to ALL gratuitous use of obscenities - especially in conducting arguments. When I am made Lord High Mudcat Poobah of Taste and Delicacy the standards will be a bit higher.

In the meantime, I am hard pressed to remember just how & when conservatives were singled out. I barely remember it happening at all. What I remember is Martin Gibson, local conservative, dishing it out in the other direction.

I don't want to spur a frenzy of searching and posting examples,ala Shambles, but do you really remember LOTS of "stupid, hateful obscenities piled on conservatives here"?

And why did you expand my remark about basic bad taste to include purported castigation of conservatives??? Followed by an extra bit of "straw man" hyperbole: " Or is it that ALL remarks about conservatives are "Clever things with double-entendré remarks" ?"

I was not talking about conservatives! Conservatives had not been an issue until you dredged it up! Why, some of my best friends are conservatives! ☺

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 11:54 AM

"When I am made Lord High Mudcat Poobah of Taste and Delicacy"

Then we'll know there isn't any taste or delicacy....

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 12:26 PM

...an inane, ludicrous and irroneous statement? I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 12:31 PM

giving your spell checker a rest, too, I see... ☺

"Then we'll know there isn't any taste or delicacy...." gee, Clinton,..and I was gonna make you my deputy! Now I have to look for someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 01:20 PM

Taste is the enemy of art.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 01:30 PM

BillD,

We were discussing the line you would draw between free speech and stupid, hateful obscenities: I chose the example of the sometimes objectionable ( ie, if it was done to a side one supported one would object) treatment of the minority viewpoint here. I DID NOT state that YOU were talking about conservatives.

YOUR statement was "Clever things with double-entendré remarks are one thing: stupid, hateful obscenities are another." Thus, my comment. How is that a straw-man arguement? If you chose not to voice your objection to treatment you claim to object to, what should I think, given your statement?

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 02:15 PM

straw man is suggesting arguments that have not been made in order to ridicule them.....

Suggesting that "...ALL remarks about conservatives are "Clever things with double-entendré remarks" is such a usage, even when asked in a rhetorical way. The example feels like 'bait' to change the issue under discussion.

" I DID NOT state that YOU were talking about conservatives." ..of course not....but the choice of examples seems to imply that I should.

As to 'sometimes objectionable treatment of minority viewpoints'...it happens to all viewpoints at times, although I still do not see the volume here that would make THAT a good choice of examples. One's choice of examples, just as in one's choice of insults, steers the conversation awry.

   It is, sadly, the case that many extreme conservative viewpoints are expressed with a rigidity and attitude (ala Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter) that make it VERY hard to debate certain points seriously. (No...I do NOT think that 'most' liberal viewpoints employ similar rhetorical devices...so pointing out one example won't convert me.)

short version of all this: It felt like bait.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 03:59 PM

Profanity is the spice rack in the kitchen of language... muthafuka

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 04:16 PM

indeed, Clinton...if used judiciously! Those who salt, pepper and flavor EVERY dish with lots of spices lose the taste of the food....and 'mothafuka' has been so overused that it means almost nothing anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 04:36 PM

re; DRAWING LINES

DIYARBAKIR, Turkey (Reuters) - A Turkish court has fined 20 people for using the letters Q and W on placards at a Kurdish new year celebration, under a law that bans use of characters not in the Turkish alphabet, rights campaigners said.

The court in the southeastern city of Siirt fined each of the 20 people 100 new lira for holding up the placards, written in Kurdish, at the event last year. The letters Q and W do not exist in the Turkish alphabet.

Under pressure from the European Union, Turkey has improved language and human rights for its Kurdish minority, but the EU says implementation has been patchy and loopholes remain.

The 1928 Law on the Adoption and Application of Turkish Letters changed the Turkish alphabet from the Arabic script to a modified Latin script and required all signs, advertising, newspapers and official documents to only use Turkish letters.

More than 30,000 people have been killed, most of them Kurds, since the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) rebels began an armed campaign for Kurdish self-rule in the mainly Kurdish southeast of Turkey.

As I said before, if you're gonna draw a line, it doesn't much matter exactly where you draw it.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 07:24 PM

"scholars differ bicker."

in that case, it made a great deal of difference....and in that case, those who drew the line knew exactly what they were doing in daring anyone to assert a cultural/political position different from the government's.

In Quebec, they draw the lines differently, requiring that signs must not be in English only.

I maintain that lines can be drawn that allow everyone 'some' leeway, or that guarantee strife.

Unless you are using a pretty personal notion of 'makes no difference', I don't see why you say it that way, Dick. Are you advocating drawing no lines? You don't say so specifically. I DO advocate carefully considered lines.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 07:56 PM

No Bill-
I'm all in favor of lines. I just don't believe that there's any inherent righness of wrongness in where they happen to be drawn. I went through this in agonizing detail when my daughter was in high school, and dress codes were imposed by the school. I funally convinced her that there was no magic skirt length measurement that was decent; just one that the rules prescribed.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 08:26 PM

"What I remember is Martin Gibson, local conservative, dishing it out in the other direction."

I'm not sure, speaking as a conservative (though I'm no Poobah of conservatism), that I can remember a time that I ever agreed with Martin Gibson.

I do own a Martin and a Gibson. A Yamaha, 2 Harmonys, and a Flatiron as well.

I own dishes too. In fact, I make dishes. I rarely "dish out" though.

I will say that, though I was raised around a Christian fundamentalism that believed in the ultimate persecution of the Church, I tended to kind or poo-poo the idea (which is different that Pooh-bahing the idea). I never ran into the kind of religious hatred that would make me believe in the capacity for people to persecute the Church.

Then I ran across the mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Oct 05 - 10:10 PM

"...no magic skirt length measurement that was decent;"

I'm beginning to see your point, Dick...indeed there is no way to 'specify' a single point for a line to be drawn that is clearly THE right place, but there are obvious wrong places.... as I said up there ↑, there is a grey area where most of the dithering takes place.

I guess that grey area is where different administrations take turns re-drawing lines.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 01:30 PM

"has been so overused that it means almost nothing anymore"

That's yout take... it's a 'chili' I happen to like a lot...

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 01:32 PM

As to the first - since the T-shirt bears the image of a "nun" masturbating it would violate "public" obscenity laws in the U.S. We can't even show a cartoon butt anymore without worrying about getting fined.

On the second I would pass it off to very poor taste on the part of the wearer. You can usually find a sign near the entrance to most "public" places that are privately owned which state: We reserve the right to refuse services. If he want's to wear it fine. But that doesn't mean he's going to be able to wear it anywhere he likes. And as far as the message goes, it is not freedom of speech to make a statement using vulgar or obscene language. The message could have been made without that language

For most of us not wearing / saying / displaying offensive messages or materials is understood to be part of a social contract to ensure we all get along. Some are to childish to understand that.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 12:54 AM

The Queen's stupid, little purse hanging over her arm offends me. I also thought the Queen Mother's hats were very offensive. There otta be a law!

Subject: RE: BS: T-Shirt/Censorship/Religious hatred
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 04:10 AM

I'm with Stephen Fry on this one:

'It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so fucking what?'

--------------------------------------------------------------

The main trouble with the drawing of lines is that those who could exist quite happily on either side – will be then excluded from one side or the other.

Down On The Border

Down on the border, where do you draw that line?
Well here I can lay down my life for a land that will never be mine
If I was standing on the outside, you wouldn't let me in
It might be my religion or the colour of my skin

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

They're telling you life should be rosy, "ain't you living in your own backyard"?
The stakes are getting higher, time to play that nationalist card
That joker's a wild one, eager to get out of the pack
It ain't so easy, trying to get the bastard back

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Does the fruit really taste better, just because it's home grown?
Why should there be an improvement, when we are ruled by one of our own?
When they come and they tell you. it's time to make a stand
Remember the good and the bad apples, growing on your land

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Whatever country claims you, it's no measure of your worth
You can take no credit, it's just an accident of birth
Why not strive for a union, a federation of states?
Sustained by co-operation, where nations are maintained on hate

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Roger Gall 1997