BS: Racial No-nos

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 04:53 PM

greg stephens,

Thanks, however I prefer not to give my address out.

mg-I appreciate your comment. I'll give banjo music another try, and if it meets my personal taste, good. If not, well-life goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Biskit
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 04:48 PM

By seperating into groups wheter they be academic, religious, ethnic,or whatever, you are retarding the effort to be accepted as a person, as a fellow human being, by saying I'm Black, or I'm White, or I'm rich, or I'm Poor you are limiting yourself and the people around you from being part of the whole of the human experience. How can we ever overcome prejudice, hatred, and genocide, when we see ourselves as belonging to this group or that, rather than just accepting your brother or sister for who they are. Not who their parents, Grandparents, or Great-Great Grandparents were or what they did and to whom, or what color their skin was or wasn't. But who that individual is and what they are doing to help the world become a better place. I believe with all me heart until we are able to accomplish that, we'll never progress as a spiecies. This is my humble opinion, I know their are a lot of folks on this forum much more educated and "enlightened" than I, but it has always seemed pretty simple to me. C'mon people now,smile on your Brother, everybody get together, an' try to Love one-another right now.
Peace! Through Understanding
~Biskit~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: mg
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 03:49 PM

you don't have to like the banjo. i don't especially like the harp and supposedly some of my ancestors must have at least wanted to play it..well, my aunt wanted me to learn it. If you don't like it, you don't like it. You don't have to. You don't have to hate it either.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 03:10 PM

Azizi: if you were to PM me your address, I would be very glad to send you a nice compilation of black banjo players(not to mention a few white ones such as yours truly) in the hope of converting your mind to a more Right Way of Thinking about the banjo, a much maligned instrument. to my way of thinking.
    As to "Pick a Bale of Cotton" and such-like material, avoid any recordings featuring Leadbelly with the Golden Gate Quartet. Stick to him on his own, much better value.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 02:53 PM

greg stephens,

I answered I don't know how I would have responded to Lead Belly or anyone else in the 1940s because I truly don't know.

But one thing I'm certain about- jeering isn't my style.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 02:41 PM

Azizi: I suppose the most influential musician in the world in the 20th century was Louis Armstrong, few would dispute that. And of his wondrous range of recordings, I suspect a majority of those who have made a study of him would pick the Hot Five records as the absolute bees-knees. Now, these incredible gems of perfect music feature the great Johnny St Cyr on the dreaded b***o. I think if you are are trying to deal with your issues on this subject, just put the record on, and listen with a big smile on your face.
    As to Leadbelly in the 40's, of course you don't know how you would have reacted. I am just asking you, very sincereely, here and now: are you with the people who recorded him, admired him, smoothed his path, promoted him etc etc: or are you with the rather small number of people who derided him and actually demonstrated at his performances by jeering. Their reasons were broadly the same then as your objections now to "Pick a bale of cotton" and other items in his repertoire that were a little too down-home for the tastes of some, at the tim.
    I am, by the way, not making a judgement on the rightness or not of the current school incident we are debating. I don't know the circumstances in enough detail. I just hope that the ensuing fuss will not result in further censorship of black music because it has elements now felt by some to be inappropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 02:07 PM

I don't think I have anything useful to contribute to this discussion, but I would like to say that I appreciate the opportunity to hear your thoughts and feelings on this subject, Azizi, and I'm glad you felt you could start a thread like this one here in the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 12:36 PM

Roger,
*sigh*...

Azizi,

good thread, and I have been following it with a lot of interest, though I have little more to contribute. I think there are very few absolute universal truths, and "what is deemed to be offensive" is not one of them, as it depends so much on context, background etc (the fact that the rules for avoiding offence have changed over the years is itself proof of the variability of the matter). But I am learning a lot of the current background thinking on the subject, and what influences it, and I find it fascinating.

Most people have persevered in treating this as a serious discussion; we can ignore those that sidetrack it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 12:11 PM

A story:

Several years ago when I was first invited to join the Male Chorus of an all black Baptist church, I was astonished by the reaction of some of my white friends. In particular, I couldn't believe some of the things that a married couple I'd known for years said. Each of them had dedicated their life to helping the poor and minorities. Each of them had been honored at one time as Person of the Year... one by the City where I lived and the other by the Council of Churches and Synagogues for a much larger area. They served on Boards of inner-city organizations and were tireless in their efforts to raise funds to support them. You'd be hard-pressed to find two people who had so committed their lives trying to help a primarily black community.

When I told them that I was going to go to the black church because I I wanted to worship with the people I'd been invited to sing with, they came up with an astonishing admonition: "You shouldn't go to a black church. That's the only place where they can be "black." As soon as you walk in the church, they won't be comfortable."   Once I stopped laughing and said, "What? They won't be able to eat watermelon?" I realized they were dead serious. They said it out of a greatly mis-directed respect for the black community, not out of any negative judgment. When I challenged them on the statement (which I thought was one of weirdest things I'd ever heard anyone say,) they stuck to their guns. They backed up their belief by referring to another white woman who was extremely active in inner-city anti-poverty groups, and was equally well-intentioned who believed the same thing. This is an extreme example of how little some people understand each other, even when they have dedicated their lives to helping them.

When I told Joe and Frankie about this, they thought it was hilarious, and for awhile, I'd say jokingly as we walked into an all- black church... "Just watch now.. as soon as I walk through this door, everyone will have to stop being black." That was when I still paid attention to my being a different color. Those days are long since gone, thankfully.

To end the story, the couple who admonished me never to go into a black church asked to come to church with me one Sunday. I could see that they were uncomfortable, but I respected that they were beginning to realize how foolish the barrier was that they'd set between themselves and a community they'd spent thier life helping.
They thought that they were being respectful and sensitive. I thought it was a very positive step forward to them to see blacks as just other folks.

As the occasionally maligned Leadbelly sang "We're in the same boat, brother."

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 12:10 PM

This is in response to GUEST's question "Azizi, do you dislike White people?"

Guest, race & ethnicity has nothing to do with who I like or dislike.

****
In reply to Shamble's question "Is it not enough for you to be shown respect as an individual?"

No-that is not enough. Individuals are members of groups. IMO, group esteem is an important part of self-esteem. I believe that people should be concerned about how groups are treated, not just how specific individuals in those groups are treated as a result of personal and institutional racism.

****
Shambles, as you can discover by examining my Mudcat posts, there are numerous posts that I have written [including posts in threads that I have started] where I did not mention my race because I did not consider it to be pertinent to the topic being discussed.

In my very first Mudcat post, I mentioned my race because I believed it added credibility to my comments on the African American origin of the spiritual "Kumbayah". In other Mudcat threads on African American spirituals, I cite my race to indicate that I am speaking from my direct experience as an African American person.

In Mudcat threads on children's rhymes {my main area of interest here]when I provide examples of children's rhymes, I attempt to gather as much information as possible for the historical record. In the past it appears that researchers sometimes gathered age, gender, decades of performance, and geographical location of children's rhymes {or the rhymes that people remembered performing as children}. I believe that it is also important to document the race/ethnicity of informants/contributors. I believe this because my research strongly suggests that while there are a great deal of similarities in English language rhymes over space & time, there also are some differences in the types of rhymes African American children & non-African American children recite. There also appears to be some racial differences in the performance of rhymes. Of course, more research needs to be done to verify these findings. However, this research can not be conducted if people don't document children's race/ethnicity.

It appears that Hilda Fish and I are the only Mudcat members who identify ourselves in threads as being Black. However, I included a question mark in my statement about this as there may indeed be other Black people who post here. If so, I wish they would come out of the closet and join this discussion, whether they agreed with Hilda and me or not.

****

Greg Stephens, it may not be clear from my posts in this thread, but I am working on my issues with banjo music. I am trying to separate banjo music itself from the stereotypical images of banjo playing slaves that were perpetrated by proponents of slavery. Futhermore, I am trying to separate the music itself from minstrelsy, which imo was also portrayed Black people in very uncomplimentary ways.   

If I were a guest at your or anyone's home who was playing or singing music that I did not like, I would behave appropriately [meaning, that I would have manners]. Meaning, that I would grin & bear it]. And who knows, I might find out that I actually like that music.

As to whether I would have been an admirer of Lead belly's music in the 1940s. Who knows?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 11:50 AM

I'd like to see 50cent playing a banjo! Most uncool Greg!

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 11:35 AM

Azizi:

I have pretty much stayed out of this thread for awhile now, as it seems that it's slid into heated exchanges and missinterpretations.
I really appreciate your last few postings. They are calmly, and beautifully stated and at least as far as I'm concerned indicate a sincere desire to communicate with others. Part of the problem with forums like this is that words typed hastily become chiseled in stone, and it's hard to erase them. I have found some of your statements about not using the n-word or dressin in raggedy clothes and singing slave songs so obvious that I wondered why you even posted them. I doubt that there is anyone on this site who would even consider doing either of those things. For me, it's the subtleties of communication that are the ones that can create unintentional misunderstanding. For example, when I started going to a black church I forever banned the phrase "He's got it in spades" from my language. It's not that the phrase referred to the black slang word for blacks. But, I thought it could be somehow misinterpreted as that, so I stopped using it. It's not that I am nervous about saying that our car is black. If I've lost track of where I parked my car, I don't think I have to tell someone that I'm looking for an African-American car. But, there may be other ways that without intention I could say something that some (and I emphasize some) blacks might find offensive. I don't need to know that "all" blacks would. "Some" is enough for me to change the way I express myself. (One of the humorous, but not offensive assumptions that I've heard a few times from blacks is because I'm white, I must play golf. White folks play golf, black folks eat watermelon.. :-) Perhaps the missing ingredient in these discussions is even the faint glimmer of a sense of humor. Perhaps it's difficult to see anything in our trouble to communicate as humorous, but humor can help ease tension.

Mostly Asizi, your recent posts have meant a lot to me. By sharing your experiences and how you've felt, you've made a connection that I appreciate. I'd add one other. In the 60's when I was in Greenwich Village, a friend commented once that he was reverse-prejudiced. He'd had so little contact with blacks in his life, and identified so much with what they'd been through that he overlooked and nasty stuff they did. In the long run, that's not helpful either. We can try to understand what drives people to do destructive things, but we can't say that what they do is alright.

I'd hope (the topic of a different thread) that this conversation could get out of challenging or insulting each other so that we can humbly talk about our experiences and share ways that we can communicate better together.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 11:03 AM

"Whatever your racial grouping - I and I suspect many others will treat your posts no better or no worse than we would treat others. But perhaps that is not what you want?"

Your implication is disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 10:53 AM

Well, this is all very interesting and informative. Now, I have a bit of a problem here(here in England, by the way, I appreciate Azizi is talking about America specifically). Well, the thing is, I have lot of black friends and colleagues(I am white) who are mostly musicians. And I play a lot of tunes on the tenor banjo, and quite a few people (surprisingly enough, given the reputation of the instrument) quite like it: and sometimes they even ask me to play. Now, just supposing we are sitting around in my house having a little social session, and we're all playing and singing. Now, say there's a knock on the door, and it's Azizi, and I invite her in. Now, what should I do? Knowing her distrss at the sound of a banjo, is putting the instrument away the right thing to do. But wouldn't this be rude to the (black)person who's asked me to play? So, what is the correct etiquette here?
    And also, would Azizi have joined the demomstrators who tried to stop Leadbelly playing, or would she have been one of his many admirers? I think we should all, irrespective of colour. consider this specific question. Difficult, I know, this is 2005, that was the 40's, but worth a bit of thought, I would say.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 10:32 AM

let's just say that your initial statement was unfortunately phrased and could easily be misconstrued for meaning things you did not intend it to mean

Let's not.

My statement was simply a fact made in response to the preeding post . If it was construed by as being some form of judgement - then that is their mistake for not reading it carefully enough or for wishing to see in it something they wanted to see and take issue with.

There are surely enough real issues here to be addressed without this pedantry?


Azizi - Is it not enough for you to be shown respect as an individual? For you to take issue only if and when you do not feel that you have been shown sufficiant respect? Rather than as you appear to do - as some form of representitive of your racial grouping?

For I do find it a little strange that as you say that you found the role of black spokesperson so draining - that this appears to be exactly the role you have so willingly adopted on our forum. Especially as no one would ever know what your racial grouping was from your posts - unless you specifically stated it. Which of course you have.

I know and respect what you have said before about not feeling happy to be thought to be pretending to be something other than what you are or of perhaps being thought to be ashamed of it. But I can't help thinking that perhaps you may be a little confused in this thinking and asking rather too much of yourself and perhaps others.

Whatever your racial grouping - I and I suspect many others will treat your posts no better or no worse than we would treat others. But perhaps that is not what you want?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 10:19 AM

Martin, you know that Bobert is just trying to get you to come and visit--he'll take you down to the barbershop to meet the guys and play some blues, and maybe have some barbeque--and if you do, I will certainly come down, and, I am sure Bill D and Ron Bacon, among others will want to plan something too--and it ain't that far from Pittsburgh, Azizi, and, rest assured, in DC, you won't have to explain much of anything to anybody--

Anyway, it is probably time to post this link--Lyrics to "Everyone's a Little Bit Racist"   from the recent Broadway Show "Avenue Q"
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 10:02 AM

Confucius he say "When hole is up yo lower lip, wise man stops digging.

Seriously tho', the tenor of this thread has changed for the worse, with sensitive debate being replaced in part by verbal fisticuffs.

If a bunch of normally fair minded Mudcatters find this issue difficult to deal with, how much more difficult for those with a genuine sense of grievance, and persecution.

The solution IMO, will remain a distant dream until BOTH sides learn to respect each other, and work at it together.

My last word on the subject, as I don't much like the direction this is taking now.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 09:50 AM

Azizi do you dislike white people?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 09:14 AM

Roger,

let's just say that your initial statement was unfortunately phrased and could easily be misconstrued for meaning things you did not intend it to mean. Best to simply say "sorry, wrong phrasing, what I meant was..." and leave it at that. Don't dig further.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 09:06 AM

However, both types of music, can be loaded with associations-including racist ones-for some individuals and for some groups of people.

Perhaps you would accept that being loaded is not the same as actually being fired?

And some people can find racist associations and see offence - it would seem in almost anything. And some seem determimed not only to do so but to make everyone else feel forever guilty about their single-minded determination.

I was told once that in order to be offended - you had to subconsciously appear in some way to have given your permission for someone to offend you. That is possibly rubbish - or it may not be.

Azizi are you forever going to see yourself sitting at your college table and refusing invitations to sit with other groups? You seem almost determined - to stay in that isolated position here on our forum despite many warm approaches from people of whatever racial origin. There is little firm evidence to support your view of being minority here of two - as very few posters seem to see the need to express their racial grouping in the normal course of exchanges here. Many only seem to do so in response to threads like these.

I suggest that (as you say) yours is an American view - where many cultures appear to exist in one land but almost as if in separate countries and do not really have much common ground. The strength of our forum is the opportunity to read how other cultures with different histories deal with these issues - perhaps not to attempt to also tie them down to the way it tends to be done in the U.S.A?

I do not say that other counties had found the way to do it properly. Do you consider that the U.S way is the one everyone else should follow?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 08:54 AM

Apparently you have not read this entire thread, GUEST A 'er you'd know my history...

And, fir the record, I ain't got no low level of aself esteem, thankee very much... I'm still very much *in the game* and doing alot of varied things...

BTW, if you can pull up the issue of the Page News and Courier (Volume 138, No 35) which came out the first week of this past Septmeber you'll find my smiling face on the front page and a long article about the stuff I'm doing... No self esteem problem here...

No brag, just fact...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 08:52 AM

Now, I don't know Bobert. Never met the man, although I'd consider it a privilege to do so. I've also never met a former slave, of any skin color. I have no idea how a former slave of African origin or descent actually spoke English, and I submit that there are very few (if any) people living today who do. I expect that their dialect was the same, or similar, to that spoken by their tan owners, who were mostly of Northern European origin or descent. I have known many tan people from Arkansas, West Virginia, Georgia, Alabama and other places in the southeastern United States who speak one of the several dialects of American Southern, and I have always assumed that Bobert's Mudcat-speak was his attempt to reproduce his own version of spoken English. Somebody who knows him...does he actually sound like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 08:11 AM

There are many different definitions of racism. Most of them include some belief that one race is innately superior to others.

That is ABSOLUTELY NOT what I believe.

See this definition which is how I define racism:

"Racism may be viewed as any attitude, action, or institutional structure which subordinates a person or group because of his or her color. It is an ideology that considers a group's unchangeable physical characteristics to be linked in a direct, causal way to psychological or intellectual characteristics. This distinguishes between superior and inferior racial groups."

However I would add "racial background", "ethnicity", & "religion" as other reasons for the subordination of a member of one group by another group.

See other Definitions for racism

Note that I do not think that the music instructor who included "Pick A Bale of Cotton" in that school concert program was racist. I think he or she made a poor choice.

I also believe that instrumental music & vocal music can bring people together.

However, both types of music, can be loaded with associations-including racist ones-for some individuals and for some groups of people.

Should performers [and music teachers] be mindful of the negative associations that certain songs and certain instrumental music compositions have for groups of people?

My answer is Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,A
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 06:01 AM

Wow Bobert, it would appear you have done everything! Surfs up in West Virginia, eh? Are you able to discuss anything with anybody that may have a differing opinion. Usually when a person becomes agitated and feels threatened by others, it is an indicator of several things, one being a lack of self-esteem.

Where were you able to latch on to "slave talk"? Jusy how old are you anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 05:31 AM

I think sometimes Shambles isn't too clear. One would hope he just didn't express himself well and doesn't realize what he said. Just in case you DID mean it, Roger: let's say a person's offended that they have to share a bus or school with a black person. In what circumstance would this NOT indicate they're a racist?

What I said was clear and it remains perfectly clear. It was this.

And at the same time anyone who was brave or foolish enough to post here to say that they found it offensive and hurtful to have to share a bus or a school with a black person would be labled a racist.

Jeri - Perhaps you could first say whether you are in agreement with what I actually did say here before you go on accuse me of saying something I did not?

For what I certainly did NOT say - is that the label of racist in this instance would be at all undeserved. As far as these labels are helpful and they probably are not very - I probably consider that anyone of any racial grouping who first approaches any and every issue from their racial standpoint - could probably be labelled a racist. The queston is there anywhere can we can go positively from that simple judgement?   

If we have leaned anything from history - it should be that when any racial grouping makes demands upon the thinking and behaviour of another racial grouping - it will be problematic.

But my main issue with Azizi's position remains one of music. To me this universal language presents us with our one chance to work together through all of our differences and demonstrate that common interests can and should come before our racial backgrounds and history. To also first approach music from looking back at your own racial perspective is to miss or limit the opportunity that this universal language presents for us all to move on together. Probably something that all of our ancestors would welcome....

To a lesser degree it is also a difference of the use of the written word. Does it really matter if we always know what racial grouping posters come from? Can we not just agree or disagree with what is said? You could always assume that every poster is whatever colour you wish them to be rather than assuming that they are not of your racial grouping. It is possibly not helpful to also assume that without being from a particualar racial grouping and without that direct experience they are too stupid to appreciate the things what may cause offence to another racial grouping.

Perhaps if your racial grouping matters so much to you - it is probably reasonable for you to think that it also matters as much to others. Perhaps this aspect just does not matter to many posters here?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 03:17 AM

In my opinion, we are all victims of racial misunderstandings and racial prejudice.

Sometimes African Americans do not venture out of our comfort level to experience new things, including interact with people of different races.

In the mid to late 1960s I attended a small New Jersey college. I wasn't aware till I arrived on campus for the beginning of the school year that the college had few people of color enrolled as students {and no professors who were people of color]. In my freshmen year there were only 3 African American women {including myself} and three African American men who lived on campus.

In my freshmen year my roomate was Jewish {only later it occurred to me that this was purposeful-the school placed two "minority students' together]

I vividly remember going to the cafeteria the first day of school with my blond haired, blue eyed Jewish roomate. I noticed that there was a table with about 5 Black students {who I later learned were commuters}. One of the students came over and invited me [and not my roomate]to sit with them. I declined that invitation. I remember thinking [but I'm sure I probably didn't say] something to the effect that I came to college to broaden my experience and not limit it by only hanging with people who were familiar to me {as if all Black people from varied backgrounds were familiar to me! Well I was young}...

But my point in sharing this was by my senior year, as a result of a multitude of racial slings and arrows in the classroom-some of them probably well meaning but still DRAINING such as "What do Black people want? [because I was the ONLY Black person, I had to be the spokesperson for Black people everywhere or in this country? I don't think so..and if I tried then mostly I was met with either uncomfortableness or arguments] and then there were the well meaning but still DRAINING questions such as "Do Black people get suntan?" tan"-short answer "YES". And "Why do you put grease in your hair?= short answer "Because it gets dry if I don't".

Overtime this drip drip drip of questions and prejudicial attitudes
[for instance, I recall how shocked I was that White girls would share with me how they didn't like Jewish people. Prior to going to that college, I thought that Jewish people were White {not having met any Black Jewish people-though I now know some].

My sense was if these White girls didn't like my Jewish roomate who looked just like them [in skin color and hair color & texture],
I KNOW that they didn't like me {who looked very different from them in these regards.

And then there were definite differences in music, and slang, and --overtime, it just got draining....By my senior year, I found that most of my friends were African American, and I was one of those people sitting at the all Black cafeteria table.

But here I am at Mudcat-one of two [?] Black people who are members and active posters. History has a way of repeating itself.

****

See this article on a study of cross racial interactions at an American university:

Diversity In Higher Education

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 02:29 AM

Earlier in this thread I had attempted to explain what I meant by a comment I had written some time ago on an earlier Mudcat thread {and was quoted by Shambles in this thread}.

I had indicated that I personally did not like banjo music. I should have but did not expand on that statement to explain that rightly or wrongly that instrument serves as a symbol for me and [from vooks and articles I have read]some other African Americans of Southern United States slavery. Specifically, what I mean by this is the that the banjo feeds into once heavily promoted images of enslaved people who are happy in their servitude.

In that sentence that Shambles quoted, I then tried to say [but did so poorly] was that-in spite of the fact that I personally don't like banjo music [beause I have tied that stereotype to that music]- I feel I need to show respect to my [African] ancestors [by acknowledging]that the banjo originally came from Africa.

One positive outcome for me that has occurred as a result of this thread is learning about efforts that are underway for Black musicians-seperately and along with those of other races-to re-claim the banjo and create music with the banjo that speaks to varied Black musical aesthetics.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 02:11 AM

Perhaps it would be helpful if I reiterated the reason why I started this thread.

This thread was prompted by an earlier Mudcat thread PC-where is thy sting?-Pick A Bale Of Cotton Ban

As you will recall, that thread discussed the fact that a school recital on folk music turned controversial because the parent of the lone African American in the school protested the inclusion of "Pick A Bale of Cotton" to represent Black culture.

It was my sense from reading the comments about this incident that the school and music instructor meant well, but may not have understood what things were likely to be considered offensive to Black Americans, and why.

I believed and still believe that increasing multicultural understanding is an important goal for the United States and for the rest of the world.

I believed and still believe that Black Americans as individuals and as groups of people {since we are a very heterogeneous mix of peoples} must "clean house". By 'clean house' I mean that we should confront and eradicate prejudicial feelings and those things that we do that sustain and increase those feelings that we have toward ourselves [such as skin color preferences for either light skinned Black people or skin color preferences for dark skinned Black people] And we should confront and eradicate the prejudice and those things that that we do that sustain and increase those feelings that we have toward White people and other non-Black peoples.

This discussion has provided opportunities for people to express their opinions on sensitive issues. Discussions such as this may be one way to help eradicate racial misunderstanding and promote positive interracial communication and understanding.

Rodney King's name will live on in history in part because of his inpromptu question that I believe came from the heart:

"Can't we all get along?"

I believe that in order for us to get along [with each other] we should face the pain that racism directed to individuals has caused and still causes. I also believe that we should do what we can to correct the societal inequities and injustice that sustains institutional racism in education systems, in housing, health care, the mass media, and other systems.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Biskit
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 01:55 AM

c'mon people now,..smile on your brother,everybody get together, an' try to Love one-another right now.
Peace! Through Understanding
~Biskit~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 12:49 AM

shall we just leave it that if you want to relax your coloured friends at a party (as Lenny Bruce put it), don't go into a couple of choruses of Pick a Bail of Cotton.

on the other hand, if its that sort of party.....

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 12:22 AM

Put yer white ass on the airplane, Martin...

I'll pick yer white ass up at BWI 'er National and gige you a real lesson on what it means to be black in the Nation's Capitol...

Back in my surfin day you were what we called "hoo-dads"... Yeah, hoo-dads didn't ever take their borads off the the top of their cars... Like never!!!

That's you, Martin...

Where I'd take you in D.C. you'd be scared to friggin' death...

You ain't no street person... You don't ,know nuthin' 'bout folks, Martin the Faker, all you know is this little fantesy life that you have where you do these Dean Martin hootnannies...

Hey, when you come to D>C.; Bring yer Dean Martin hootenannie stuff with you, will ya??? Oughtta go over big where I'm gonna taken yer sorry white ass...

No brag, just fact...

You don't like gettin put down then quit attackin' me... I can back up everything I say.... You can't back up squat!!!!

"Sidewalk Bob", alias Bobert

p.s. The challenge fie yer loosetr butt is on fir life, apl... Anywhere, anytime... Yopu know what I mean!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Biskit
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 12:03 AM

This was a good thread,..but seems to have degenerated into name calling and hatefulness. Understanding; is the thoughtful exchange of intelligent information. Exchange meaning; everyone listning to what the other person has to say, Guest A, I understand the whole Drama queen problem when faced with such a volatile, potentially explosive, topic,I've been guilty of it myself. Knowing in your heart that you are so right, and the other folks are so wrong, and it's up to you to enlighten the poor wretches. maybe everyone should re-read the entire thread, without the stumbling block of your heart being on your sleeve. (trust me, you can do this, if you just will)Most folks, have contributed greatly to this thread, Peace, reread The Shambles posts, try to put them into the context that he meant it to be in, I don't think for one minute that he is prejudiced against anyone and espescially about the color of ones skin. He started out not understanding the whole not liking the banjo or banjo music because of the music some folks played on it, The Minstrels in Black face etc.
and that Azizi was showing respect for her ancestors by not liking the instrument or the music it made. I didn't understand it either, It was an African instument originally, played by Africans, then by white folks, sometimes in a derogitory manner. If that is how she chooses to show respect for her ancestors, that's great! at least she shows respect for her ancestors, in this day and time that is commendable, I just don't understand where the banjo works into the equation. It's like killing the messenger for bringing bad news! again, it was like when M.Ted quoted the bastards that killed Emmet Till,Peace, You jumped on board ready for a fight when there was nothing to fight about. You stopped trying to understand, and let your emotions conrol your reactions. In My Humble Opinion, We'll never get together until we learn to listen to what others have to say. I mean listen to what the words mean, not just the way they sound.
Peace! Through Understanding
~Biskit~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 11:47 PM

bobert, playing stupid 3 chord blues songs hardly makes you black. And the blues in Wasshington DC is the minor leagues compared to Chicago and everyone except you knows that.

Chicago is an extremely multi-cultuarl town. What I know about black culture in my little finger compares to what you know in that tired bag of bones, bobert.

Your act of blackspeak doesn't make you an expert bobert. It makes you a moron. I am not uncomfortable in a black community. I also don't have to pretend blackspeak to get attention or look like some kind of accepting white guy. If you endorse hip-hop as being what the black community is all about and are just so comfy yourself in that, well it is obvious women probably will have nothing to do with you, pal. Your, "I'm more accepting of black people than you are" attitude is as usual for you, childish and laughable. but I expect that from you, bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 11:25 PM

Thing is, when I listen to rap and much of the music being done by kids today, it seems to be protest and railing against the status quo and the 'establishment'. Kids looking and seeing no future, seeing and disliking authority and authority figures, kids being radical in a 'rage against the machine' kinda way. I wonder if they'll grow up to be as sedate, passive and accepting as we've become?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 11:24 PM

Spoken like a real whitie that ain't too comfy in the black community, Martin...

Hey, I play blues in NE Washington, D.C....

How 'bout you???

Care to enlighten us on where you learnt up the black cul-shur???

Bobert, alias "Sidewalk Bob' in NE Washington, D.C.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 11:16 PM

bobert, to me "nigga" is the same as "nigger" with a blackspeak or ebonic accent or slang. It is the same thing. And I think it is wrong the way it is used by black people. Have you ever heard a Chinese person say, "chink, I'm goin' to kick your yellow ass." ?

When I say there has to be some housecleaning first, less niggas, ho's, gangstas, bitches, yo,yo,yo, yo mama etc. I think racism towards afro-americans will be reduced, hopefully. But this part of black culture, especially the hip-hop image, I don't see doing anyone any good. It revels and dwells in it's own blackness.

And what's with names like Ice Cube, Fifty-Cents, and stuff like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:59 PM

No, I didn't, M.Ted. My apologies to you. I misunderstood.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:55 PM

If I was a little confusing, I am sorry--but I was quoting, or at least paraphrasing, the white men who killed Emmet Till--I mean't nothing ill to Aziza--what I meant to convey was that African-Americans know that a poorly chosen word in the wrong circumstances can be fatal--but I presume you know that.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:43 PM

It is not me, you moron! You come across as such an intellectual but your ability to discern is about the same as ....

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:34 PM

"2. Peace, you are certainly coorect when you said you don't have Jeris' way with words. Enough said."

I have read you on other threads. Enough said.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,A
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:29 PM

Three points;

1. Jeri, thanks for the Godwins' Law site. I am new to this type of self expression, debate or whatever these boards are for. The rest of your thread was great although I am sure much was missed by several of those whom I am starting to catagorize as "drama queens". Ironically, the ones I have bestowed this title on all are male. The term was never gender specific to begin with.

2. Peace, you are certainly coorect when you said you don't have Jeris' way with words. Enough said.

3. Bobert, your reason and logic continue to amuse me. You have not lived in the areas that I have, Boston to Chicago and many places in between. What I said is my experience. I am not going to say you don't have a clue as to who says what because I have not followed you around. I do, however, have doubts about you. And trust you, good God almighty, why should I?

Back to Jeri and Godwins Law - I have offered on this board what I considered to be polite and factual difference of opinions only to be accused of "being on drugs, a dummy, thickheaded and/or not part of the real world."
Geez, they are just my opinions mostly based on my experience and not any major poll. If one should find that their opinion differs from mine, then simply offer a rebuttal.
But no, some have to take up the role of "drama queen" and vent their spleen. Not Shakespeare but I think I will let it go at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:22 PM

"A black boy don't talk like that to a white woman and live to tell about it"and it still happens today."

So what are you saying? A Black woman don't talk that way on the Mudcat because she is gonna take shit for starting a good thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:20 PM

Peace says, "Let me reverse it: "As I am defining it here, a "racial no no" is something that a Black person says or does that is likely to cause trouble for him or her with non-Black Americans and/or other people who are concerned about racial political correctness."

Saying something that cause trouble with people who were concerned about "racial political correctness" what got Emett Till killed and dumped in the river, Peace--as in "A black boy don't talk like that to a white woman and live to tell about it"and it still happens today.

This "Pick a Bale of Cotton" rage is just bottled up anger, from that and about a million other things just as bad that you never heard about. The anger isn't wrong, but venting it on any white person that looks at you crosseyed doesn't get anyone anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 07:46 PM

Once agin, GUEST A shows how little he or she knows about the real world...

Blacks categorically don't say "nigger" unless it in the context of some academic discussion about language... Most middle class black folks never use the term "nigger" or "nigga"...

Where you find it used is by mostly urban, young and/or poor mostly urban blacks and it's always "nigga"!!! Always...

Now if you wanta hear (like who wants to???) the terribly offensive word "nigger" it is used by mostly young white folks in the South, and many parts of West Virgina and in the Irish blue collar neighborhoods in Boston...

You don't even want to get into this one with me, GUEST A... I've spent much of my life with black folks on one hand and rednecks on the other...

If there's one thing yer just gonna have to trust me on, this is it!!!

No brag, just unfortunate fact...

(In case you missed parts of this thread, you might wanta go back and spend some time readin' ot rereadin'...)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 07:39 PM

Sorry, Jeri, I just don't have your way with words.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 07:34 PM

Let me reverse it: "As I am defining it here, a "racial no no" is something that a Black person says or does that is likely to cause trouble for him or her with non-Black Americans and/or other people who are concerned about racial political correctness."

I don't see a single thing threatening in that statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 07:28 PM

This is what she said, Peace:

As I am defining it here, a "racial no no" is something that a White person says or does that is likely to cause trouble for him or her with African Americans or other people of color and/or other people who are concerned about racial political correctness.


And it was phrased as a threat, at that--not cool, at least with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 07:22 PM

One big problem with discussing anything this sensitive is that people take something personally and lash out. There should be a corollary to Godwin's Law. Here at Mudcat, the thread's outlived it's usefulness when somebody accuses somebody else's ass of encapsulating a head.

I think sometimes Shambles isn't too clear. One would hope he just didn't express himself well and doesn't realize what he said. Just in case you DID mean it, Roger: let's say a person's offended that they have to share a bus or school with a black person. In what circumstance would this NOT indicate they're a racist?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 06:59 PM

Get your head out of your ass, Shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 06:55 PM

And at the same time anyone who was brave or foolish enough to post here to say that they found it offensive and hurtful to have to share a bus or a school with a black person would be labled a racist.