BS: Racial No-nos

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 01:38 PM

"'Pick A Bale Of Cotton' is a horrible song not because of how it sounds, but because of what it celebrates. How sick to look at it any other way. "Tomorrow Belongs To Me" is the song of the former Hitler Youth that still reverberates among the young fascists of today. Do we get children to sing it because it is "anthemic" and "choral" and has a significant European history. I don't think so."

"Thanks for the comment Micheal Morris but the song has nuthin' to do with Leadbelly - ever"

Hilda Fish-

I too am puzzled by your response to my post. You said that Leadbelly's "Pick A Bale of Cotton" is "a horrible song...because of what it celebrates," and you compared it to a song appropriated by the Nazis. As Greg Stephens and others have pointed out, Leadbelly's popular version of "Pick a Bale of Cotton" is a bragging song, it dates to the early twentieth century, and it has no connection to slavery or the Hitler Youth.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 09:46 AM

"Tomorrow Belongs to Me" is from Cabaret, and the lyrics are pretty innofensive by themselves. Isn't it remarkable that such harmless (English) lyrics can cause such a strong reaction based on who and what people associate with a song? Others can choose to take whatever it is back or let the bad guys steal it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 05:39 AM

Hilda Fish: your last post is a bit confusing, and I'm not quite clear if your Leadbelly comment refers to "Pick a Bale of Cotton" or "Tomorrow Belongs to Me". Just to clarify things, "Pick a Bale of Cotton" is quintessentially a Leadbelly song, and is a classic example of a long tradition of oppressed people bragging in adversity("John Henry" and "Grey Goose" are often cited as similar examples). Leadbelly is unassailably a huge figure in African-American cultural history, but some people have been ambivalent about some of his songs. Azizi objects to W"Pick a Bale of Cotton" because he is so upbeat and celebratory and boastful in it. Others,have taken a completely reverse viewpoint, and have objected to being reminded of the tragedies of oppression in the hideously realistic and mournful "Aint no more cane on the Brazos". My own personal opinion is that both these songs are fantastic bits of music, and extraordinary historical evidence. But context is everything, and I dont pass any judgement on the correctness of the decision about whether or not it was a good thing to sing the song in one specific school on one specific occasion in one speciifc set of circumstances. I dont think I, or Azizi, or Hilda Fish, know enough about this case to be certain of a position on that question.
On the subject of the other song Hilda Fish is referring to,"Tomorrow belongs to me" is not a real Nazi song: it is a spoof Nazi song, as far as I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 04:31 AM

Tomorrow belongs to me was not a Nazi song - it was written for the musical Cabaret. It illustrates a point beautifully in that context. I don't think the Nazi's ever knocked up anything of similar worth.

You have made the common mistake of mistaking the words that a character says in story, for the the subtle intentions of the author. Poor old Salman Sushdie is under sentence of death because of similar dumb apprehensions.

I suppose there are people out there who really think Randy Newman hates short People and in favour of 'keeping the niggers down' - a very ironic line from his song Rednecks.

Life must be full of alarums and dangers if you can't think, and insist that your kids don't make the effort either.

Would you favour the banning of the song Summertime in schools because of the patronising view of black society in Porgy and Bess?

educating kids is too difficult, they should start on the parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: hilda fish
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 02:06 AM

Thanks for the comment Micheal Morris but the song has nuthin' to do with Leadbelly - ever - The sun on the meadow is summery warm
The stag in the forest runs free
But gathered together to greet the storm
Tomorrow belongs to me

The branch on the linden is leafy and green
The Rhine gives its gold to the sea (Gold to the sea)
But somewhere a glory awaits unseen
Tomorrow belongs to me

Now Fatherland, Fatherland, show us the sign
Your children have waited to see
The morning will come
When the world is mine
Tomorrow belongs to me
Tomorrow belongs to me
Tomorrow belongs to me
Tomorrow belongs to me

[ADDITIONAL VERSE]
The babe in his cradle is closing his eyes
The blossom embraces the bee
But soon says the whisper, arise, arise
Tomorrow belongs to me
Tomorrow belongs to me


Sorry Azizi, I weakened there and know will regret it. Thanks for the advice Art Thieme. I will take it very seriously indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 11:38 PM

Black people should never open a diaper service business in a Greek neighborhood and name it "Afro Ditey" !!   ;-)

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 11:22 PM

"I think all black people should all go back to africa "

Come back when you sober up.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 06:37 PM

Only if they had accordions in Pangea.

Sadly they did - I fear that is when the continent started to divide.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Goose Gander
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 05:17 PM

"'Pick A Bale Of Cotton' is a horrible song not because of how it sounds, but because of what it celebrates. How sick to look at it any other way. "Tomorrow Belongs To Me" is the song of the former Hitler Youth that still reverberates among the young fascists of today. Do we get children to sing it because it is "anthemic" and "choral" and has a significant European history. I don't think so."

Hilda Fish-

I am aghast that you would equate Leadbelly's bragging song with a Nazi anthem, and I can only conclude that you yourself do not know "what the song celebrates."

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Biskit
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 03:44 PM

While it is tempting to go Pangea-a-wondering,....who'll stay here an' slay the dragons?,if not for us, who'll keep the children safe an' warm? unless,........ we could take the young-uns with us??!!?? In that case I'm in! piss on the dragons they'll die of boredom or do each other in.
;)
Peace! Through Understanding
~Biskit~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 02:41 PM

They had not only accordions, Carol, but also banjos. And that drum thing that will remain nameless. (It starts with b.)

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 02:28 PM

Only if they had accordions in Pangea.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 01:56 PM

It rather depends how far you wish to go back.

Prior to the Triassic period in the earth's history - all the land masses were all joined together in super continent called Pangea. They have drifted apart into continents - rather like all of the human beings who evolved and wanderered them have also drifted apart.

Anyone fancy joining me in being a Pangeian?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 01:51 PM

Agree, you can not use that same criteria i used for N.America.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 01:48 PM

repression of the host peoples culture

That statement right there is problematic here in the US. The "host peoples" would be the indigenous peoples of North America (who collectively refer to themselves these days as American Indians), and their culture was indeed brutally repressed by people who came here from elsewhere (Europe). African culture has been a part of the cultural mix in North America for just about as long as European culture. So here, at any rate, European culture is not the host culture to African culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,A
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 01:33 PM

"No one wins when it comes to opions
and I don't know of anyone that thinks that way."
"Well at least until now."

If that was what you considered the "cheap shot", good. Because that comment was directdly soley towards you.

And I apologize for the "please and thank you" remark. For a minute, I was reminded of a shirt salesman I encountered one time.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: wendyNY
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 01:30 PM

I think all black people should all go back to africa

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 01:22 PM

"Peace, I told you I was naive. Explain the "cheap shot to me."

Not naive, Disingenuous is a better term. If you don't understand all by yourself, my explanation won't help anything. And drop the "please and thank you" routine. No one snaps his fingers at me and gets service. That means you, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: stevenrailing
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 01:12 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,David Hannam - PM
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 08:12 AM

I have said this before, man will always offend man. Being offensive is part of human nature. We are not clearly talking here about racial crime, (both ways) we are talking about 'no no's'! These no no's are a stifle on human nature.

Yes someone will call a black man a 'n*****' and wrongly so too, yes someone will abuse a white man for being white, wrongly so too, but should the increased danger of criminal prosecution be introduced to curb offensive behaviour? I'm not telling, i'm asking?

When in an argument, i call my opponent 'fat obese s***'? He in turn calls me a 'big nosed 'd**k', lol, or vice-versa, so what is the answer? Imprison either on the basis of making 'inflammatory remarks designed to offend'?

Sensitivities between the varying ethnicities are a product of liberalism, and white liberalism at that, gone mad!!! In truth, the Sikh doesn't mind whatsoever that Briton's would celebrate Christ at Christmas? But white liberals cater for a myth surrounding the minorities that they have created. A myth based in repression of the host peoples culture, and a complete lack of understanding that most people, from whatever background simply want to get on with their life, and really couldn't care less if people want to celebrate Christmas. I refer here of course to various councils banning the word 'christmas' in public celebrations!

Nursery ryhmes - Blah Blah Black Sheep? Do black people really care, i suspect they don't!

This is commonsense talk. i have friends from all communities and backgrounds for the most part and none care about sensitivities. the whole thread is the effects of hyper-sensitivity.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Janie
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 01:06 PM

Having knowledge of the 'other's' history, culture and personal experience increases understanding and the ablility to see the 'other' POV as having validity.

    Yesterday I listened to Terry Gross interview Jerry Mitchell on Fresh Air. Mr. Mitchell is a reporter for the Clarion-Times in Jackson, Mississippi, and is about to win an award (sorry--I now forget which one) for his investigative reporting that has led to the reopening of several civil rights murder cases from the 1960's. On another thread I have mentioned a book by Timothy Tyson called "Blood Done Sign My Name" about race riots in Oxford, NC in the early 1970's. By the way, both men are white southerners.

    We white Americans may have a tendency to forget that legal racial discrimination is NOT ancient history, and that blatant racial prejudice and discrimination, while not legally sanctioned, and not as common, are still very much alive and well in our country, especially here in the South.

    In our country, we are not merely experiencing the institutional legacy of slavery and the Jim Crow south, we are still seeing racism actively practiced on a personal level among some whites in every single community of this country. To not expect that everyday reality to color how many African Americans interpret all, or nearly all, of their social experiences with the dominant white culture, is very naive.

    And so....while I may experience Azzizi telling me the N-word is a no-no as condenscending, I can certainly understand that she may not have intended it to be so. And intentions do matter--but we can't get to the intentions without these open, honest, and uncomfortable conversations.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,A
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 12:58 PM

Peace, I told you I was naive. Explain the "cheap shot to me.
Please, and thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 12:49 PM

Hey Peace - please don't allow it to make a Shambles of your own Peace (of mind I mean)   it's an improvement on Dave Chappelle anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 12:35 PM

Shambles. You are a very sorry individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 12:17 PM

A Mere Man

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 11:26 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Cluin - PM
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 04:37 AM

"Will your next racial no no be the playing of banjos?"

That right there is called hyperbole.
It's an old weapon of master debaters and like many of those old strokes it gets in the way of intelligent discussion.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And a little later in his thread as expected – along comes Racial No No 4.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 08:16 PM

Racial no no

4. Playing banjo music to celebrate Black American history and
culture would be considered offensive to many African Americans
as we {perhaps more than White Americans} consider this
instrument to be part of the caricature of the watermelon eating,
pop eyed Southern widely grining slave who was happy in his
servitude.

I trust that we can now safely ignore racial No No 4 and perhaps I will receive an apology for being accused of hypebole for my question - which turned-out to be a very accurate prediction?

Perhaps not?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The one thing I have noticed here is many of the men, and not to exclude myself, could learn a lot from the ladies that post here Decorum, friendliness, not expecting to be agreed with all the time and just some positive responses that they give. Would be difficult for me to exclude any of the Ladies. Is it possible that a differenc in a males' Nationality makes him more agressive? Turf comparisons?
Or perhaps just plain jealousy? From my position, the Pike fishing is so much better 'up North'.

Yet another can of worms………………..But of course the pike fishing is so much better 'down South'. *Smiles*

I can't help wondering what the response would have been from all posters to a man who was attempting to introducing these racial no nos? Possibly the ability of males to tolerate without agression and posturing - is somewhat better than thought? Well towards females anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 11:23 AM

Shambles: For someone who refuses to ever admit that even one word of all the stuff you post might not be the right choice, it is sad to see you cutting and pasting Azizi's sincere expressions of a change of heart and a desire to be more open-minded. The day that you acknowledge that you have stated something poorly and are sorry for any hurt you caused others will be a day to remember. I'm nopt counting on it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 11:14 AM

I think both the group and self-esteem of "African Americans" (guess I'd better include "African Canadians" here too) would be improved immensely if certain members of that particular "group" quit promoting and propogating use of "the N word" either as a term of endearment or to embellish (??) hip-hop/rap music!

Shoulda mentions so-called "stand-up comedy" too. Ever heard of Dave Chappelle (ie The Chappelle's Show)? My son unfortunately likes it, and I've had to set up some very clear boundaries around here because it literally MAKES ME SICK. Dave Chappelle is a good-looking young African-American, who makes millions every year propogating the ignorant racial/gender stereotypes at the root of the "social disease" this thread addresses. Check out these poor excuses for "humour" ...

I'm Rick James, bitch!
# Come here, darkness.
# Brother darknesses! Look everyone darkness is spreading.
# I'm one of the baddest motherfuckers of all time, one of the best singers and one of the best looking motherfuckers you've ever seen. Hold my drink, bitch.
# I wish I had more hands, so I could give those titties four thumbs down!
# They shoulda never given you niggas money!
# Then Jasper said 'look here nigger, if anyone's gonna have sex with my sister, its gonna be ME.
# Let's talk about Chinese people! With their kung-fu and their silly chang-chang-chong talk! We can't understand you! Go back to yer country! White power!
# I hate niggers, jews, ho-mo sexuals, A-rabs, mexicans, and all sorts a Chinks, they STANK and I HATE 'EM!"

IMO until the unwashed masses quit forking out millions in support of this type of "humour" (???), we've about as much chance as a snowflake in hell of doing away with negative stereotypes.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Biskit
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 11:03 AM

;)

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 11:02 AM

Once a person--in this case Azizi--has admitted she wasn't as right as she though she was, only a cad would stand on the sidelines and cheer the way you did with that remark. You are not simple. You are cheap. And that shot you took shows it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,A
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 10:47 AM

Peace, I have admitted I am a simple individual (not minded) and can be somewhat naive. No one "wins" when it comes to opinions and I don't know anyone that thinks that way. Well, at least until now.
I simply want a couple answers so I can formulate an opinion, whetehr it be agrees with all or not. (and, of course it won't nor do I expect it to.)

The one thing I have noticed here is many of the men, and not to exclude myself, could learn a lot from the ladies that post here Decorum, friendliness, not expecting to be agreed with all the time and just some positive responses that they give. Would be difficult for me to exclude any of the Ladies. Is it possible that a differenc in a males' Nationality makes him more agressive? Turf comparisons?
Or perhaps just plain jealousy? From my position, the Pike fishing is so much better 'up North'.

Woof!

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 10:29 AM

Azizi says above In reply to Shamble's question "Is it not enough for you to be shown respect as an individual?"

No-that is not enough. Individuals are members of groups. IMO, group esteem is an important part of self-esteem. I believe that people should be concerned about how groups are treated, not just how specific individuals in those groups are treated as a result of personal and institutional racism.

Yes, group esteem is an important part of self-esteem. I'd like to point out that this works both ways too. THe way members of a group allow themselves to be treated and how they choose to respond to that treatment is an important part of group esteem too.

For example, I just made some major changes in the way I run my small business. As a private music teacher, I used to lose weeks of income/year and spend hours of my "personal time" each week trying to reschedule lessons missed for the lamest of excuses ("I forgot" or "little johnny got invited to a birthday party" or "we're taking the kids to Disneyland for two weeks - so here's your cheque for only half the fees we owe this month" etc etc etc etc).

For years I allowed my salary and working hours to be dictated by the fleeting whims of the 30-40 families I serve. The stress and loss of income didn't seem to be enough to inspire me to change my ways, but thankfully getting some ideas from other teaching Catters and reading what another piano teacher had to say about it a couple weeks ago did the trick ...

"When we represent ourselves as a quality product, the public will view us as such ... Through our policies and attitudes we contribute toward the way the public treats ALL piano teachers. If we let ourselves become "doormats", we are contributing to the view that piano teachers are (and should be) treated poorly, that their income and business policies are not as important as those who work for a big corporation, or just plain work for someone else!"

Changed those policies 10 days ago - and it's saved me $100 already! Students and parents are now motivated to put music first instead of last on the priority list. And they think twice before they call me to cancel, because their studio fees have been paid in advance and are NOT refundable, and they know missed lessons are rescheduled only for a (very short) list of legitimate reasons now.

I'd be a much richer, more relaxed and respected lady if I'd done this long ago!

I think both the group and self-esteem of "African Americans" (guess I'd better include "African Canadians" here too) would be improved immensely if certain members of that particular "group" quit promoting and propogating use of "the N word" either as a term of endearment or to embellish (??) hip-hop/rap music!

On the same note, it's helpful to remember that no matter what people say or sing or do, it cannot "hurt" me unless I allow it to!   Whether I feel hurt or angry or offended depends not on what other people say or sing or do but solely on my own thoughts and attitudes. ANd my attitudes/thoughts are MY CHOICE, and mine alone.

Part of self-esteem and self-acceptance is letting go of other people's opinions. If someone kept telling me over and over again "You are a purple pig ...you are a purple pig ... you are a purple pig", I'd either laugh, feel annoyed or think they were crazy. It would be highly unlikely that I'd believe I was a purple pig, or allow myself to feel even a moment of grief over it!

Why not adopt the same approach to racial slurs/stereotypes? It's much easier and more effective remedy than trying to dictate or control what other people think or do or sing or say! As human beings, we cannot change another person anyway - we can only change ourselves.   

IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 10:08 AM

"Good one, Shambles!"

You seem to have all the grace of a dog in heat, GUEST,A. It's about 'winning' to you, isn't it?!

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,A
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 09:55 AM

Good one, Shambles!

Bobert, Reference our posts of 22 Nov 6:01 AM and 22 Nov 8:54 AM;

I could less what you have done, can do or are planning to do. I have my own little life to work with albeit much more minor than yours or so you would like some to believe.

My question was "how did you pick up slave talk" and "how old are you anyway" since the vernacular has changed greatly in the past 150 plus years

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 08:35 AM

Stop doing that silly little victory dance, Shambles. You're spookin' the horses.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 02:06 AM

They do say that one picture is worth a thousand words.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=86612&messages=17

The following from the above thread.

Subject: RE: To Azizi-Please check this out
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 11:10 PM

Notice to all Mudcatter Members and Guests:

I, Azizi Powell, hereby promise to cease dissing banjos.

I publicly admit that in the past banjo music has hit a number of triggers in me. However, henceforth and forever more when I think about banjos I will replace the negative images that I believe were used to promote slavery and minstrelsy and replace those images with Henry O Tanner's positive painting of a Black grandfather teaching his grandson how to play the banjo.

I will not go so far as to seek out banjo music, but I will keep an open mind and an open ear while hearing that music.

Also, I want to apologize to any banjo player I may have offended by dissing your instrument of choice.

My bad.

I will try to do be more open minded in the future.

Thank you,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 12:29 AM

"Peace through understanding".

I love it.

And the song is great too.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 12:26 AM

When you first posted that I thought you were nuts. Now, hell, you're a beautiful kinda crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Biskit
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 12:23 AM

Bruce, Michelle, all together now in 3 part harmony C'mon people now, smile on your Brother, everybody get together, try to Love one another right now. maybe it'll be contagious and spread Eh?
Peace! Through Understanding
~Biskit~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: LilyFestre
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 11:30 PM

*Humming* I love that song...been singing it around campfires for years!

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 11:23 PM

That's what Biskit's been saying.

"C'mon people now, smile on your brother . . .".

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: LilyFestre
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 11:20 PM

I haven't read this entire thread because frankly, there is so much pretense and pompous rambling here that it is just unbelieveable. I haven't ever seen a thread about how one race should act with another...tips to getting along with black, yellow, green, white, purple, red, whatever color people...geez...when will anyone get that we should ALL treat EVERYONE with respect. I am not going to tiptoe around Suzie Q because she is black or around Pete because he is Native American anymore than I expect them to tip toe around me because my ancestory is German....when will everyone stop talking the talk and start walking the walk? BLAH BLAH BLAH It's SO DAMN EASY. People are people...be nice to one another...it's that simple.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Biskit
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 08:53 PM

Yeah it did! She occasionally does a benefit concert here in Tucson. She's a little slower,(aren't we all though) and there's a bit "more" of her (ditto what I said before) but she still has a beautifuly haunting voice.
Peace! Through Understanding
~Biskit~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 08:47 PM

Azizi - you do not appear to have addressed why - having stated here how draining you found being in company where you were or felt you were expected to speak as some form of authority for your racial grouping - that you appear to have willingly volunteered to adopt that very role on our forum?

I think it is fair to say that sadly outside of our forum the choice to always avoid being included or excluded from social groups on racial grounds was perhaps not open to you or any of us. But when posting your words as a fully equal member of our forum - no one would know your racial grouping or expect you to be a spokesperson for anything.

Is it interesting and it does appear a little strange to me that having had that choice on being welcomed to our forum - and where I think you may accept that there was no stated need or request made for you to adopt this role - you freely chose to put yourself in the role of spokesperson for your racial grouping? A role that you admit you found draining outside of our forum and tried to avoid by not joining company in which this occurred.....   

Individuals are members of groups. IMO, group esteem is an important part of self-esteem. I believe that people should be concerned about how groups are treated, not just how specific individuals in those groups are treated as a result of personal and institutional racism.

I think this touches on something that others have mentioned. The assumption is made when this group approach takes precedent over the individual one - that an offence is generally made TO the group. And more importantly it then follows that the offence is made BY another group. Would you accept that individuals who would never dream of causing that offence are then included in this offending group?

For example - Seeing the playing of banjo music as causing offence to your ancestors is one thing and a personal taste of yours to which you are welcome to express and others to disagree. The implication in this thread and under this title - that all of your racial grouping would perhaps feel the same as you do - is quite another.

For on purely practical grounds the reaction as we can see is that many of the banjo players get twitchy and defensive at the thought that they are part of a group that is accused of causing offence to the group you have volunteered to be spokesperson for. Can you see this?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 07:42 PM

"Silver Threads and Golden Needles"

Her version definitely Rocked--with a capital R.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 07:39 PM

Aziza Says:


In reply to Shamble's question "Is it not enough for you to be shown respect as an individual?"

>No-that is not enough. Individuals are members of groups. IMO, >group esteem is an important part of self-esteem.

Aziza, neither you, nor anyone else, belongs to a permanent group of any sort. Groups exist only for the expediency of whoever happens to be doing the grouping---

Racism is simply way of grouping--the initial purpose was probably to simply create a permanent working class who wouldn't be assisimilated into the general population-- but now it functions as a way to restrict a certain group of people from the full benefits of the society that they live in--

"Freedom" in a society means freedom to group with whom you choose, or not to group at all. In other words, no "You belong there because you're one of them."

Many years ago, when Detroit had a blues scene and the suburbs were kept white by restrictive lending practices, a number of blues fans,and politically and socially "aware" students gravitated to Hastings Street--one of the crowd, oiled by a bit of Stroh's, waxed poetic about what a
"groovie scene" it was. One of the residents said, "Yeah, for you maybe, but you can leave whenever you want."

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Biskit
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 07:34 PM

I prefered the Youngbloods even though Linda is a Homegirl. However, I don't think anyone did Silver Threads and Golden Needles Better than Her. Words to live by Amigo.
Peace! Through Understanding
~Biskit~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 06:27 PM

Speech/diction change according to the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,Martin Gbison
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 06:10 PM

Greg stephens, I beg to differ about Louis Armstron as being the MOST influential misician in the 20th century. My vote goes to Hank Williams who did give credit to being influenced by a black street musician in Montgomery, alabama known as Teetot.

No one has addressed though the issue of the double standard culturally of why it is OK for blacks to insult themselves loudly and in public with the N word. I find this to be a phenomenon that I cannot say that I have ever heard any other culture/racial group do this. That, and to so continuously have their male musical artists so constantly ridicule and demean females in music.

We had for a long time a news anchor who happened to be black and was very articulate. He was really quite well respected. A friend of mine who happens to be black enjoyed telling me that he happened to be a party where this news anchor attended and without any whites present, was hardly recognizable as his speech went completely ebonic.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 05:35 PM

"C'mon people now,smile on your Brother, everybody get together, an' try to Love one-another right now"

Let's Get Together

Love is but a song we sing
Fear a way we die
You can make the mountains ring
Or hear the angels cry
Though the dove is on the wing
You need not know why

Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another right now

Some will come and some will go
We shall surely pass
When the wind that left us here
Returns for us at last
We are but a moment's sunlight
Fading on the grass

Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another right now

If you hear the song I'm singing
You will understand
You hold the key to love and fear
All in your trembling hand
One key unlocks them both you know
It's at your command

Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another right now

Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another right now

Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another right now

Biskit has a fine choice of song he keeps quoting from--if twice is 'keeps quoting'. I used it to end many sets during the 1960s, and it is a good song to remember for today. I liked the version done by Jesse Colin Young anf the Youngbloods. The words above are those done by Linda Ronstadt.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 05:15 PM

When I found "De Massa Ob De Sheefol'", I knew I could never sing it that way and be true to my own instincts. The original poem, by Sarah Pratt McLean Greene (born in CT-1856/ died in MA-1935), morphed into the song I've recorded twice. I changed it to "The Master Of The Sheepfold" --- and I left most of the dialect out of it. I knew I loved it and wanted to sing it because, from my point of view, it was about inclusion rather than exclusion! Being an atheist, any religious aspect of it just wasn't important to me. But the old dialect way of singing simply didn't seem to be respectful -- or accurate. It wasn't me, and I wouldn't / couldn't sing it with that two-centuries-ago-white-man's-exaggerated-view-of-how-blacks-talked mish mash still intact.

I think I made a better song out of it. And the feel still lets the listener get the true gist of it if they are at all sensitive to the social reality within the content as expressed in the text.

I think I'll find the thread on that song, "The Master Of The Sheepfold", and resurrect it so those interested might look into it...

That's generally how I feel about the premise of this thread. If it feels wrong, it possibly really is---so before you do it, give it some thought. It's just the good old golden rule--all over again.   ;-)

Art Thieme