BS: Racial No-nos

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 06:36 PM

Nowhere did Azizi say that the b/a-ac had its house in order. She spoke to things that she as a woman of colour found offensive/hurtful.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 06:01 PM

Does anyone else feel that the black/afro-american community might have to put it's own house in order first culturally for respect to expand into other ethnic groups?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 05:48 PM

Short people must have to get used to jokes made at their expense but usually these are good-natured if still thoughless and offensive and these would generally be made by people who they were at least aquainted with.

I accompanied an exceptionally tall workmate of mine on the London Underground. He used to say good naturedly when asked - which was often - that he was six foot eleven and a half. His height was often referred to in the workplace but I must admit that was astonished when a complete stranger came up to him on the platform and asked him what the weather was like up there and a bit further on in our journey another group of young lads passing on the escalator thought it ammusing to shout-out comments about this height.

When I mentioned this to my friend - he was surprised that I should be surprised at this sort of thing. For it was something that he just took for granted and hardly noticed as it was just the way things were for him. I thought his attitude and conduct was always exemplary - not something I could say of those who took advantage of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 05:43 PM

"If you have another interpretation of it than the obvious one, Peace, I 'd like to hear it-- "

What's to interpret? I took it at face value.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,A
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 04:09 PM

Ah yes, Cluin, but continue to hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Cluin
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 03:50 PM

Thanks to the Powers-That-Be that we have your example to lead the way, A. We'll all endeavor to be as perfect in future, though we can't benefit from the omniscience that you are blessed with.

This is a valuable thread and an important issue, as evidenced by the way it makes people uncomfortable. Loaded language; sensitive issue. I salute Azizi's bravery in starting the thread. Hopefully I'm not too old to learn something new.

In the thread I started here on bad album cover art, I posted a link to a cover showing a person billed as "Big George". It was a cheesy looking cover with a tall tubby fellow in a tacky stretch polyester suit with big lapels and a big frilly shirt. It struck me as funny and it still does. But someone sent me a PM asking if I was making fun of him because he was fat? I answered, "No. It's because the photo was cheesy and he billed himself as Big George." And had a song called "Blanket on the Ground".

But I guess I really was making fun of his being fat, in a way.

I really dislike the way obese people are often ridiculed as if they deserve it. People that would be repelled at hearing an uncomplimentary racial epithet or a joke making fun of someone's disability often wouldn't think twice about the feelings of the overweight. I have a lot of friends and family with weight problems of varying degrees and it bothers me to think of such callousness inflicted on them.

So on second thought, I guess I can still learn something. Or re-learn it anyway.

I still think it's a funny cover. But not in a mean way.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 03:29 PM

I read it very carefully, Peace. For instance, I read this:

>There was a time in my life when I was desperately looking for >good White people to conteract accounts of chattel slavery that I >was reading, and accounts of the killing and maltreatment of >Black people in the United States during the Civil Rights era, >and the accounts of other atrocities perpetrated by White >people toward people of color in the United States and >throughout the rest of the world. I also needed and wanted to >know that there were good White people out there to counteract >the hurtful personal experiences with racism that I had.


If you have another interpretation of it than the obvious one, Peace, I 'd like to hear it--

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,A
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 03:08 PM

It wasn't designed to be a lecture, just a reminder and perhaps more for others plus we continue to do our part as with anything else in our lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 02:43 PM

"Peace, it is up to the indvidual to create an atmosphere where "color doesn't matter."

Thanks for the lecture. I know that.

"I know racism still exists, but I have done my part."

I haven't finished doing mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,A
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 02:20 PM

The only people I have overheard using the 'N' word were black (nigger, not nigga) What street corner were you hanging on, bobert?
Better start associating with a better class of white folk.

Peace, it is up to the indvidual to create an atmosphere where "color doesn't matter. I and my friends have been there for years but we can't control or influence everyone.

Ted, I think you have pin pointed it.I too felt a little offense in that someone could suggest that whites in general have racist tendencies. I would not be surprised if Azizi is a more educated person than myself. That, however, does not give permission for anyone to attach a 'tag' to those of us who have personally not seen "colour" since before puberty. I know racism still exists, but I have done my part.

Still, at 8:41 this AM, I asked, "okay, what am I supposed to do?"

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 02:08 PM

Read the thread, Ted?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 01:40 PM

Like Jeri, I have been thinking about why this thread offends me, and it comes down to this--
If Azzizi has a problem with something that someone says, she should talk to them about it, and   not hold everyone with a similar skin tone accountable for it--

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 11:45 AM

"Azizi - does it ever occur to you that you may cause needless division and offence to others in your ernest attempts to try ensure that they do not cause offence to you and your particular racial grouping?"

She's one helluva lot smarter than you are, Shambles. I don't doubt she's considered that.

Azizi, this thread has prompted some great responses and maybe a few one could expect. I am glad it's here. I too pray for the day when colour don't matter, race don't matter. It won't come soon enough. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 11:29 AM

When I was young "Schwarzer" (black person; black one) was considered a derogatory term in German and we were admonished to use "Neger" (negro) instead. That has changed now.

Most people now use "Schwarzer" though that's unfortunate for that is also use as a term (often of endearment) for a conservative and a derogatory term for a priest.

Of course, some very EC people now use 'Afrikaner' (African) but I know people who consider that term offensive to themselves (Muslims/Arabs from the Mediterranean coast of Africa who do not like the term 'Afrikaner' being equated with 'black').

Wolfgang (who sometimes uses "Afroamerikaner" in German in an attempt to mock about the EC brigade)

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:44 AM

The 'n' word debate here azzizi appears to be preaching to the converted? It is widely heard still but amongst the black community. Have you posted your thoughts/links to any forums where more black people participate to canvass their views? What was the general consensus of opinion amongst those who use it as an everyday word?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:42 AM

Well, somehow I doubt continuing use of hte word will make it any less offensive in the long run. And for those who might be interested in learning how to use the time-honoured word to insult other racial/ethnic groups, check out this Wikipedia article about "the N word"

"The term wigger, or whigger, refers to a young, white mimicker of certain affectations of hip-hop and thug culture. It is a portmanteau of white and nigger. The word is widely considered offensive because of its similarity to nigger and because it reflects stereotypical notions about blacks.

Similarly, other portmanteaus formed from nigger, also usually considered offensive, are used to describe other nonblacks who adopt certain, usually hip-hop, African American cultural affectations. These include combining nigger with Chinese, to produce chigger. (A chigger is also a type of mite and a type of flea, pests whose bites cause intense itching.)

Nigger is also combined with Jew to produce jigger; with Korean to produce kigger; and with spic, a slur for a Latino, to produce spigger. The terms timber nigger and prairie nigger are used in some areas to refer to Native Americans. This term is found more in the northern part of the United States where the original Native Americans flourished in the large forests that once existed there. Sand nigger refers to those of Arab descent, and snow nigger is a slur against those of Inuit descent. None of these derogatory terms implies any connection to African American culture."

Geez, lemme write all this down. See? There's something new to learn everyday! (but not, in this case, anything that I particularly want to learn ....)

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:40 AM

BTW, I have never heard a black person use the word "nigger"... "Nigger" seems to be very much a word used by unenlightened white folks...

What I have heard is "nigga" by black folks and it takes on an entirely diffent connotation (in most cicumstances, that is)...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,A
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:31 AM

Okay, what am I supposed to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:25 AM

Warning: An article that repeatedly references the "N word":

Here is an excerpt from an online article about the use of the
"N word" by Black people. This article appears to addresses some of the questions that were asked by previous posters. I have not edited the article's spelling of this word, though in my writing I always use a shorthand version of it.

I would like to note that this is NOT a word that I ever use in in everyday speech.

"Erdman Palmore researched lexicons and said: the number of offensive words used correlates positively with the amount of out-group prejudice; and these express and support negative stereotypes about the most visible racial and cultural differences. When used by Blacks, nigger refers to among other things: all Blacks ("A nigger can't even get a break."); Black men ("Sisters want niggers to work all day long."); Blacks who behave in a stereotypical, and sometimes legendary, manners ("He's a lazy, good-for-nothing nigger."); things ("This piece-of-shit car is such a nigger."); enemys ("I'm sick and tired of those niggers bothering me!"); and friends ("Me and my niggers are tight."). This final habit, as a kind word, is particularly challenging. "Zup Niggah," has become an almost universal greeting among young urban Blacks. When asked, Blacks who use nigger or its variants argue that: it has to be understood in its situation; repeated use of the word by Blacks will make it less offensive. It's not really the same word because whites are saying nigger (and niggers) but Blacks are saying niggah (and niggaz). Also it is just a word and Blacks should not be prisoners of the past or the ugly words that originated in the past.

These arguments may not be true to life. Brother (Brotha) and Sister (Sistha or Sista) are terms of endearment. Nigger was and still is a word of disrespect. More to the point, the artificial dichotomy between Blacks or African Americans (respectable and middle-class) and niggers (disrespectable and lower class) ought to be challenged. Black is a nigger, regardless of behavior, earnings, goals, clothing, skills, ethics, or skin color. Finally, if continued use of the word lessened its damage then nigger would not hurt or cause pain now. Blacks, from slavery til today, have internalized many negative images that white society cultivated and broadcast about Black skin and Black people. This is mirrored in cycles of self-and same-race hatred. The use of the word nigger by Blacks reflects this hatred, even when the user is unaware of the psychological forces involved. Nigger is the ultimate expression of white racism and white superiority nomatter how it is pronounced. It is linguistic corruption, an attack on civility...."

-snip-
Click here to read the entire article:

A history of the use of the N Word by African Americans

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 07:46 AM

I hear black youths call each other nigger on an almost daily basis. I hate my children hearing that in particular. My children are white, but have been brought up to know that that is unacceptable.

I never understood this. Why, for instance, are rap lyrics chock FULL of the "N" word? Can't believe it's due to ignorance or self-hatred! Maybe it takes some of the 'edge' off to use it themselves, as a term of endearment?

I agreed only reluctantly with Azizi that "farmer" is better than the "N" word, only because the word "farmer" does not necessarily carry negative connotations. It seems to me the "N" word is always meant as an insult, no matter what color the speaker's skin might be.

It's the same with gay guys calling each other "queer" or "faggot". IF they had any 'pride' or self-esteem to speak of, surely they'd come up with a more loving turn of phrase!

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 06:23 AM

I have a black male friend who is called a coconut and worse by some other black folk because his friends are predominantly not black.

I know a white woman happily married to a black guy, I have seen her being insulted and even spat at by black females because she dares to take one of 'their men.'

I hear black youths call each other nigger on an almost daily basis. I hate my children hearing that in particular. My children are white, but have been brought up to know that that is unacceptable.

Irregardless of colour we all have the capacity to act offensively.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 06:17 AM

Down On the Border

Down on the border, where do you draw that line?
Well here I can lay down my life for a land that will never be mine
If I was standing on the outside, you wouldn't let me in
It might be my religion or the colour of my skin

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

They're telling you life should be rosy, "ain't you living in your own backyard"?
The stakes are getting higher, time to play that nationalist card
That joker's a wild one, eager to get out of the pack
It ain't so easy, trying to get the bastard back

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Does the fruit really taste better, just because it's home grown?
Why should there be an improvement, when we are ruled by one of our own?
When they come and they tell you. it's time to make a stand
Remember the good and the bad apples, growing on your land

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Whatever country claims you, it's no measure of your worth
You can take no credit, it's just an accident of birth
Why not strive for a union, a federation of states?
Sustained by co-operation, where nations are maintained on hate

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Roger Gall 1997

Azizi - does it ever occur to you that you may cause needless division and offence to others in your ernest attempts to try ensure that they do not cause offence to you and your particular racial grouping? I suspect that you may be offended and would not appreciate others instructing you how you should think and what words and actions you should avoid - why would you think that others would be any different?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From:
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 05:49 AM

When I was in primary school in the late 1980's we were taught Pick a Bale O Cotton, but like others it didn't have the words O Lordy in it. When I did my teacher training, I too taught the children the same song. I also knew the counting rhyme eeny meeny miney mo with the word tiger...never occured to me that it ever had any other words!

I agree though with some one earlier that if the songs aren't taught and sung...perhaps with a bit of history, they will be lost and forgotten.

I live in in a predominantly black and Asian area. When I first moved here I was frequently offened by the way I was spoken to by these people...I hasten to add NOT all of them, but some of them. Some of the attitudes towards white women by 'black' males is intimidating and frightening but is seen as OK in their culture. I frequently hear 'black' people call each other the N word however if a white person were to use it then it would be racist comment. Go figure? if it is going to be a racist word it should be a racist word all round not just one way.

Racial tolerance and respect works both ways. The past shouldn't be forgotten but there is little point in living in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 04:31 AM

My intent in starting this thread was to share my view on what things turn White people may innocently or purposely do that are offensive to African Americans.

I am grateful to Hilda Fish for deepening the discussion to the politics of inequity.

I am not sure if Hilda Fish thinks that only certain racial groupings are or can be angry about the politics of inequality. But I am not sure if such potentially divisive expressions of anger are helpful in addressing it - however understandable that anger may be.

But I agree that there is a difference between measures that are really addressing this inequality and the political correctness that started this thread.

Perhaps it should be recognised that political correctness has served its purpose? That it was never going to have any affect on those who wished things to stay as they were and intentionally wish to cause offence and stir-up trouble or those that did not care?

That the blunt weapon of increasingly imposing political correctness will not at the same time address both innocently caused offence and the purposeful one?

That continuing with it (without a general consensus) is pushing at an already open door. The effect of which upon those who are already desparate not to use the wrong words and cause offence is just to make them even more confused and twitchy. To make these people worry worry about things like asking for a black coffee or listening to banjo music - is not helping to address matters of serious ineqality.

For this can not be done if we are divided and this constant drive to make people feel guilty about a past they can do nothing about is risking this division and risking a reaction against political correctness which will help no one.

Azizi - Must everything continue to sound so negitive and so accusatorial to folk who honestly mean no offence? Along with the stick - there is also the carrot. Where is the encouragement for what has been achieved? Are there only racial no no's - are to be no racial yes yes's' from you?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Kaleea
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 01:18 AM

I always heard arguments re whether the Banjo came from China or Africa. Silly me, I thought it was China.
There are many kinds of racism which many people do not realize. I frequently have known people who call any Native American male "Chief," or a female Native American "Squaw" (which means cunt), or say, "How," or make jokes about wearing "war bonnets" (the long feathered headress normally whas been of Spiritual significance, not about killing), or rain dances, or hatchets, etc. I also hear people speaking to Irish Americans with a poorly done "Irish" lilt, or asking about leprechauns, or assuming all Irish Americans are drunks. We may not realize that, just as someone from any country in Europe is European, anyone who is native to North or South America is an American but not necessarily a citizen of the U.S.A. I have heard some anglo people here in Southern California (& Arizona & New Mexico & Texas) comment that Hispanic people should "go back where they came from" and not realizing that Hispanic people were here before anglos.
Because most of us are Musicians who are actively involved in Traditional Music, we are more often faced with choosing songs from days when racism was the rule than the average Musician. Many of us are likely to perform these songs for young people. We can choose songs which are appropriate for young people to learn in order to help them understand our history. In a teaching environment one might use songs which one might not use in an average concert setting. When we sing songs for a G-rated audience, most of us are respectful enough to not include songs with profanity. This is not censorship, this is using wisdom.
We can also help others to be more respectful of people who are different from themselves by setting an example for them to follow. We Traditional Musicians can do this with our Music. I believe that most of us have the ability to use good judgement. Whether we use this good judgement is up to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 11:15 PM

When the ETs come after us, it will unite us all right-- under a war umbrella where we soon sell each other out anyhow, because it will turn out there were NO e.t.'s at all, just a manufactured threat as an excuse to warm up the ole guns for profit, as usual. The temporary cooperation will merely give way to renewed mutual blaming for whatever can distract us from the truth about the need for the "war." Cuz after all is said and done, we are still merely human-- and BTW, as further evidence of same: notice how hard it is to talk about ETs at all without "naming" their color!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 09:59 PM

(Hmmmmmmm??? Think Bruce might be on to somethin' here...)

Now back to the serious discussion... Me and Bruce is sorry...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: mg
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 09:56 PM

back to the point about songs being offensive because they are combining tragic history with an uptempo beat. That is just plain how a lot of songs are sung...very very common in the Irish tradition...in 1847 Paddy's on his way to heaven..if he left one kid he left eleven while working on the railway...or my back is nearly broken from the clear day light to the dawn and i know i'llnever be able to plow the rocks of bawn.
3
or in Peter mberly assuming you sing the right..yes there is a right and a wrong here...tune..i was hit by a big log and died tra la la..

enlist bonny laddy and come awa with me to the crimean?? wars,,,or come sail to high barbaree..to execution's dock i must go i must go..put my head upon the block...or the6y gave us a pension of 2 pence every day but we will nevertheless make the rafters ring..

I love those songs..no one is trying to offend anyone..it is courage in the face of terrible wretchedness...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 09:52 PM

There's a green dog on another thread. Therein is the answer, maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 09:48 PM

Oh, there we go, Mizi...

Not only do we have all the existin' knotheads but no we have green people??? Awww, jus funnin'...

Yeah, sometimes it takes an external threat for folks to find what it is that bonds us...

Yeah, I get that one... Think 'bout after 9/11 an' evryone in the US was right pissed off at Osoma, er his buddies...

Problem is that there ain't 'nuff Osoma's to go 'round and we ain't go no "boogie-man" factory to manufacture them so I reckon green people will do jsu fine...

Maybe not, but Iz perfectly willin' to try a healthy dose of green people, if that's what it take....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 09:28 PM

This world is not as I would want it to be.

If I had a magic wand, there would never have been and would now cease to be any discrimination or any hatred. My magic wand would whoosh away depression, sickness, poverty, and untimely death.

I wouldn't want the world of my dreams to be pollyanna-like since that would soon become awfully boring. We'd stagnate in a world of sweetness & light. But how I wish this world were better than it is now and has always been!

For some time I've wondered if the only thing that would unite humans would be the arrival of extraterrestrials who meant us harm.
But maybe even then these beings from "outer space" would have to be so different from us that we humans would join together without regard for our racial, ethnic, religious, and national differences.

Does something like this have to happen in order for us all to get along?

I hope not.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: number 6
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 09:06 PM

Understandable Peace ... it's a hard call these days.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 09:04 PM

I can't answer that for you, sIx. You can change the words around all you want. It doesn't change the facts around for me. Sorry, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: number 6
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 09:01 PM

But is it really discrimination ... culturally it would makes sense. My son after finishing university applied to the Toronto Fire Department .. he was turned down as he was blonde and 6'2" .. culturally Toronto has changed, would he have been the best fit?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 08:57 PM

Azizi, I have tremendous respect for your eloquence and your obvious concern and respect for others, and I recognise the sincerity of your views.

You say that you have no problem with white pride, and I believe that to be your honest POV.

However, there is a problem with white pride for me, and it is this. I feel very uncomfortable with publicly stating that I am proud to be a white British citizen, because I have in the past been accused of being racist when I have done so. It seems that white pride is considered anti black by many black people, while black pride is an inalienable right.

If I were to post a similar thread suggesting words and ideas which, used by black folk, would be likely to cause offence or distress to whites, the response would, IMO, be very different than what has been posted to this thread.

I have noticed that sensitivity to perceived insult varies according to the group. It would be impossible to make a film in which the N word was used by a white character to a black character, because it would raise a storm of protest, and quite possibly (and rightly) be banned from showing at cinemas. However, there are a number of films and TV programs made as late as the 1980s (and still being repeated on satellite & cable TV) in which the words honkey, whitey, or cueball are used by black characters to whites, and these do not as far as I can see raise any protest at all.

Now it may be that we just aren't that upset, or it may be that we feel that we would be seen as racist if we objected. I don't know which, but it is a fact, and speaks to my earlier comment that we would all be better employed in thinking ahead rather than dwelling on the unpleasant actions of people long dead and for the most part unlamented.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 08:51 PM

Maybe. But, it was still discrimination. Telling me I am being discriminated against because someone else was discriminated against and this new form of discrimination will benefit that person or those people doesn't change anything from my point of view. FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: number 6
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 08:47 PM

Peace ... you are a White Male... many other doors are open to you ... for those that were on the 'top of the list' ... in all probability, that was the only door that they could get in.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 08:27 PM

I understand where you are coming from when you say the above, Janie. I hope it works out for the folks in the Territory. I do not harbour any ill-will as a result. However, it was discrimination because I was valued less BECAUSE I am a White male. Calling it 'social change' in the long run doesn't change that as a fact. Wheter it actually leads to better education in the NWT is still to be determined. I hope it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Janie
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 07:46 PM

Peace,

   I think we are into a bit of thread-drift here, but not terribly so.

    I am a social worker--a pretty archtypical social worker. I recently told how impressive a candidate for a job I was, and was pretty much informed they had to finish interviewing, but I had the job. Well, I waited. And I waited. And I waited some more. Finally, I got a phone call from the woman who had wanted to hire me. She was very embarrassed, and therefore a bit indiscrete. She told me that her boss was insistent that they hire a "person of color" to the position.

    Now, this was not just me going for a better position. Our agency is divesting all services and will be administrating only. This was one of the few additional adminstrative positions that opened. It would have meant I remained employed, and even more important at my age, within the government retirement system. (I am the breadwinner in our family.)

    My personal interests and the well-being of my family ran smack dab into my values around social justice and the need for affirmative action. Talk about pondering. I had to go back to school and study a right smart while on that one. I am still struggling with this lesson, but ultimately have decided I need to put my money where my mouth is.
   
    Have I been personally harmed because of affirmative action? Yes. Was I descriminated against? No. Why? I was not less valued because of stereotypical assumptions about my worth or fitness. I was an individual loser on the road to institutional change that will ultimately, I believe, benefit my community. It is a bitter pill to swallow, but one I am willing to try.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 07:15 PM

Its a good song though.

if they didn't hear it at school and they weren't fortunate enough to have folksinger parents when would kids get to hear folk songs? Its part of their national culture, and a lot of folksongs have to with murder, cruelty, drinking, sailing in bad weather - all activities which are bad for you.

the school has some sort of responsibility to disseminate the national culture

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 07:14 PM

I worked in Canada's Northwest Territories. There were eight placements as to who would get hired. I was last on the list in the eight categories. That law was brought in and I left the Territories. The list/categories was based on race and sex. FYI.

Discrimination happens in lots of places and it is ugly.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Janie
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 07:11 PM

Sorry to be so convoluted--don't know how else to write it.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Janie
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 07:10 PM

One thing this thread highlights is the importance of experience and cultural or ethnic history in shaping how and what we perceive or DON'T perceive. Traditional music is one oral tradition used to transmit cultural heritage and experience. Each of our legacies are both gift and burden. When a dominant group has largely shaped the institutions of a society, those who most closely resemble the stereotype of the dominant group will be the most blind and deaf to how those more distant from the dominant group may experience or perceive the actions and effects of social institutions. And visa-versa.

    Most of us can probably identify in some way with being part of a group with less power, a group that experiences institutional descrimination. For myself, those are the experiences of being a woman, being over 50 in the work place, and being from West Virginia. From that I can at least try to imagine what it would be
like in America to be a person of color on top of the rest.   

    Prejudice and descrimination are not synonomous. Prejudice on the part of those with power leads to descrimination. When one is part of a group which has been (and continues to be to one degree or another) descriminated against, that very real experience can make some people in that (those) group(s) people hyper-sensitive and can sometimes lead some persons of the group to experience something as descriminatory when it is not. Conversely, people who are blind to their prejudices, and especially those who are both blind and in a dominant group, can be hypo-sensitive and fail to recognize when they are descriminating against some one.

    Unintended consequences are consequences none-the-less.

I say---let's keep talking!

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 07:00 PM

Well, no matter how we all look at it, this thread has grown to over 100 posts in less than 36 hours. So, agree or disagree, folks are interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 06:58 PM

Well I'm sick and tired of everybody being sick and tired.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 06:45 PM

Yeah, I know. I'm interested, but not really influenced.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 06:38 PM

I don't think that's the purpose of this thread, Martin. Azizi ain't tellin' anyone what to say or think. She's just stating her opinion for people who might be interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 06:25 PM

Quite frankly, I am sick of people telling me what and what not to think and say.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 05:59 PM

Race, economics, class, ethnicity, religion...they're all distinctions. With the singular purpose of keeping certain groups, bounded by those definitions, separate from each other. How about one distinction?

Human.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial No-nos
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 04:03 PM

I see Azizi's intention in starting this thread as a means passing on information about what might be considered offensive to some people in some situations, from her perspective. The particulars of that she has--and will further--elaborate on. That's valuable. More knowledge is a good thing.
What you do with that knowledge is up to you. She's not telling you how to speak... she's just informing you of the ways your speech might insult. You can never make the assumption that others always possess that knowledge already.

So if you want to racially insult African-Americans, you now have a few tips.   ;)