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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Barry Finn Date: 20 May 07 - 08:14 AM So far Jim I've found that many of the collectors of this song state that to "blow" is to hit, none to the contrary & none to support the voice tube connection that you suggested. Some of the versions, the content itself sing the same statement. When the voice tube came into being doesn't have baring on this unless you can site a source that supports you. I did find the speaking/voice tube interesting though & enjoyed find out more about it. Barry |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 20 May 07 - 11:14 AM Barry Finn: You started this thread because you didn't know the answer and wanted it. I know the answer and gave it. Others came back and chose to debate the matter. This is the second time that you have done so and rather impolitely, I might add. Don't ask any more questions if you don't know how to accept the answer. I, for one, have have lost all interest in helping you. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 20 May 07 - 12:16 PM Here is the version of "Blow the Man Down" which so many of you seem determined to accept. When you begin to realize that it can't be right, (which shouldn't take any more than a minute) start looking for the real meaning. Kill the Man As I was a-walking down Paradise Street, To me way-aye, kill the man! A Liverpool bobby I chanced for to meet, Give me some time to kill the man! Says he, "You're a Blackballer by the cut of your hair; To me way-aye, kill the man! I know you're a Blackballer by the clothes that you wear. Give me some time to kill the man! Now in fairness to you, let's give the man a name & the phrase, some meter. Kill Paddy Doyle As I was a-walking down Paradise Street, To me way-aye, kill Paddy Doyle! A Liverpool bobby I chanced for to meet, Give me some time kill Paddy Doyle! Says he, "You're a Blackballer by the cut of your hair; To me way-aye, kill Paddy Doyle! I know you're a Blackballer by the clothes that you wear. Give me some time kill Paddy Doyle! Mull that over for a while. If it works for you, so be it. If not, then put some thought into it and open your minds. On another note: The next time any of you find yourselves asking for documentation or proof on any thread please say "I'm being really stupid here." three times and count to ten before typing. Then don't type it. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: JennyO Date: 20 May 07 - 12:31 PM I was talking to John Warner (jack halyard) about this thread. He knows a lot of folklore - particularly about the sea. He is a shanty singer and songwriter who researches his material well. I'm afraid he comes down on the side of Barry Finn, Charley Noble and others. I'll see if I can get him to come and post. He is only an occasional Mudcatter. Anyway, regardless of when the voice tube might have come into being - as Greg B said - there was simply no NEED for one on sailing ships in the period of time that the song dates from. It's an interesting idea, but flawed. Jim, you seem so sure of your facts, and yet you have made a basic mistake when you say that Barry Finn started the thread and asked the question. Take another look and you will find that the thread was started by a GUEST in 1999, and Barry was in fact the first to give an answer. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence, I'm afraid. Maybe it's time to retire gracefully. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 20 May 07 - 12:50 PM My most sincere apologies to Barry Finn. This thread was re-opened by "Blank" and Barry's was the first name to show up at the top of the page. As for you're arguments. Speaking Tubes are Ancient Egyptian in their origin and your suggestion that they were neither required nor used on board is only your opinion. I am not the only one who knows this as the correct answer but I sincerely doubt, given the reactions here, that anyone else would dare go against the pack. Once again. My most sincere apologies to you, Barry Finn. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 20 May 07 - 04:10 PM And some where, off on the distance, the fire of curiosity dwindled to a tiny flame, flickered and finally ...... died. Charley: You were the only one to show any kind of interest in gaining knowledge or at least, investigating the possibility before rejecting the notion. Thank you. We'll do that time capsule one way or another. I'll bring the six-pack. I'm outa here! Cheers! Jim |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Barry Finn Date: 20 May 07 - 06:02 PM Jim, thank you, apologies excepted, also have never called you stupid. I, too checked out all the links reguarding the voice/speaking tube & went beyond that because I did find it quite interesting. Even thought when my mother (78 yrs young) needs to move & sell that the tubes may be something I want to use if & when she wants me to build her a new home. It wouuld probably work alond the lines & beside the new style flexable plumbing. Jim as usual, I do find your input, maybe not always spot on but useful, enlightening & interesting. Barry |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Tootler Date: 20 May 07 - 07:03 PM The next time any of you find yourselves asking for documentation or proof on any thread please say "I'm being really stupid here." three times and count to ten before typing. I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at here. If you put forward a theory that runs counter to that generally accepted, it is reasonable to ask for evidence to support your theory. Looking through the thread, it seems to me that those asking for documentary evidence are making a reasonable request. I agree that sometimes that request was not made in as courteous a manner as it might have been, but nevertheless the requests mostly struck me as reasonable. Equally, of course if you are putting forward the generally accepted theory, you still need to provide evidence to support that theory. It is then up to each individual to decide who has provided the stronger evidence. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 20 May 07 - 08:04 PM Whether or not God invented the speaking tube to call to his disciples is immaterial; was it in use on 19th c. sailing ships? Not just one ship, but in sufficient use for it to be known generally to crews? Hugill and others speak of 'blowers' (see above) keeping the crew in line with blows- true, sometimes, on Black Ball, but does this have anything to do with 'blow the man down' in the chantey? Terry, in his book, speaks of the chantey as one used with the halyards, and is satisfied with 'blow the man down' as equivalent to raising the top sails, giving no further explanation. A couple of verses to give this post a salty flavor: We went over the Bar on the thirteenth of May. To me way-ay, blow the man down. The Galloper jumped, and the gale came away. Oh gimmie some time to blow the man down. So we'll blow the man up, and we'll blow the man down. Way-ay, blow the man down - And we'll blow him away into Liverpool town. Oh gimmie some time to blow the man down. Now is that the sails talking? Composed but not copyright by an unknown chantey man, the line coming into his head because the wind was blowing and the crew could make sail. See Richard Runciman Terry, 1921, The Shanty Book, J. Curwin, London. (On line, Gutenberg) |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 20 May 07 - 08:07 PM Tootler: We are on the Internet. I can't give you documented evidence of anything, on this medium. No-one can. I have proof of my birth date, a driver's license, passport & all sorts of documents but I can give you none of these, here. Furthermore, when dealing with Folk, Tradition & Ancient History, documentation, very often just does not exist. I once posted the Origins of the tune to "The Dawning of the Day" as being Pre-Roman to which someone replied "I don't believe you. Do you have proof?" to which I replied "Sure! I also have the original 3 nails from the cross". I'm paraphrasing. It was a thoughtless response which to me, indicated an unwillingness to learn. My source for that information is a good friend, a PHD, a University Prof. and a former Mudcatter who spends countless hours researching such things and gave me the answer, off the top of his head, using three languages. And the answer he gave me was brushed aside with a "Where's the documentation?" from some eejit who probably hasn't opened a book in thirty years. That was the very reason this fellow had given me for leaving Mudcat. Take a look at the most recent "She Moved Through the Fair" thread for a similar example. Now, if you go back up the page a little, you will see that I have done a fairly honest job of entertaining your theory with "Kill Paddy Doyle" Too good a job. I almost find it credible. Almost. I have found several references, on the Internet which all give the same meaning to "Blow the Man Down" and they are all remarkably similar in their structure. Looks to me like one has copied from the other. "Blow" as a noun and as a verb mean two different things and they are not interchangeable. The same goes for "Bow" which has even more meanings. There are other examples but you get my drift. I say that the "Kill the Man" interpretation makes no sense and ask that you give some thought to that rather than just trying to win a debate. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Charley Noble Date: 20 May 07 - 09:06 PM JIm- The question you raise is on the edge of what most of us "shantymen wantebees" have learned from our years of reading nautical song literature, and even listening to such primary informants as Stan Hugill. It should not be unexpected if some of us, myself included, are skeptical of your hypothesis. However, we all should be more cordial in our "dismissal" of such a hypothesis. Q does a good job of reviewing some songs, accepting that speaking tubes were used even on a few sailing ships but were hardly the general case. It's really hard for me to believe that the term "blow the man down" didn't imply striking someone down given its use in so many shanties. I'd never run across "Kill the Man" as a substitute for "Blow the Man down." But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are saying. We need a couple of brews from the Mudcat tavern so that this question may be more amicably settled. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 20 May 07 - 09:54 PM I would guess that any speaking tubes would have run from the captain's quarters to the galley. The earliest reference to a speaking tube (modern sense) found in the Oxford English Dictionary is to one being used in a London restaurant in 1833. I wonder how easily a voice through a tube on shipboard would be heard when the ship is underway. Make that a couple (or more) single malts and I just might believe either of the combatants here (heavyweights?) but I (flyweight) think both are wrong. And they call the wind ... Has anyone here a copy of James Runciman? Or Clarke Russell, "Sailors' Language" ? A number of 19th c. books that might help. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 20 May 07 - 10:56 PM "Mariah" from an old Native American legend which tells of a wind thar carried away all in its path. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 20 May 07 - 11:07 PM There were speaking tubes in the larger homes during Roman times. They would have been capped for privacy and draughts. It is not difficult to imagine that whistles would have been installed during those times also since a voice would not be heard through the cap and that some clever chap may even have fashioned whistles into handles. "Blow the man down" would have evolved just as "Ring him up" has. Another phrase which will probably die in 50 or more years. Question: What is a non stick frying pan? Answer: Prior to K-Tel it was every frying pan in the house. We've just forgotten how to season them. The Folk Process, I think you call it. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Schantieman Date: 21 May 07 - 05:48 AM Hugill, the most authoritative source we have, was of the opinion that the phrase in question means to knock down with a blow, or words to that effect. I don't have the book in front of me now as I'm at work, but I can easily look it up when I get home and cite the reference - as can any other owner of a copy. Steve |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 May 07 - 01:47 PM Hugill, "Shanties and Sailors' Songs." Hugill, "Shanties from the Seven Seas." In neither does Hugill give the opinion "that the phrase in question means to knock down with a blow,...." Hugill does mention the strikers and blowers as mates, but does not tie their actions to the chantey. The true explanation of "blow the man down" is quite simple, and, once heard, is obvious. On a Blackball packet, the bags of beans got wet in a gale. The mates agreed the beans must be eaten before they went completely rotten. For two days the men ate nothing but beans. On the third day, their complaining bowels were painfully and noisily demanding relief. The captain ordered all hands to take a carminative, the ship headed into the wind, and shouted "Blow, bullies, blow." This is the event that is celebrated by the chantey. There is some discussion about whether the wind so generated was stong enough to "blow a man down," or did the sailors blow up the tale to regale their lady friends ashore. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Charley Noble Date: 21 May 07 - 02:25 PM Q- For shame! LOL Could that incident have inspired this miscellaneous verse to "Away Rio!"? If we're becalmed that would be a great sin -- Away, Rio! But we'll fill all our sails by just breaking wind -- We're bound for the Rio Grande! I note that Hugill in SONGS OF THE SEA, © 1977, p. 76, states with regard to "Blow the Man Down": "To blow" means to strike, the chief mate of Blackballers being called the "Blower" and the second mate the "Striker." Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Greg B Date: 21 May 07 - 02:38 PM I've traveled the wide world over, and many things I saw, but a speaking-tube on a whaling ship I never saw before. No, really. I've tromped all over vintage vessels, some restored, some reconstructed, and some really awful. Now, on the powered vessels (both steam and vintage internal-combustion) there inevitably have been speaking tubes running from bridge to engine room, and often a few other places (such as to the wardroom or charthouse). This even has been the case on light-ships. But never, no nay not once, have I ever seen such a thing on a sailing vessel of any kind. From coasters to whalers to packet ships, I've not seen hide nor hair of such a communications device. Nor any sign that any such thing was ever there. Amongst all that original hardware, from binnacles to bits and even basins, nary a speaking tube in sight. Now this is purely anecdotal, and lacking in 'documentary evidence.' But it convinces me that 'Blow the Man Down' hadn't a thing to do with such a acoustical contrivance. It should be noted that the speaking tube was not the primary means of communication twixt engine room and bridge--- that came via the telegraph. The speaking-tube would have been resorted to when that didn't work, and would have served as the conduit of choice words, coaching, and exhortations, and excuses. Presumably it would have functioned fairly well in the age of steam, which is relatively silent save perhaps for the sounds made by the blowers on the boilers, and a lot less well in the presence of internal combustion engines. As to other references to being blown down, I give you 'The Ebenezer' verse one: "I shipped on board the Ebenezer Every day was scrub and grease her Send us aloft to scrape her down And if we growled they'd blow us down" Other parts of the "Ebenezer" use language which implies origins similar in time and place to 'Blow the Man Down.' Context makes it pretty clear to me. The watch below was called up with a clatter on the scuttle and "take your hands from your cocks and pull on your socks." |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 May 07 - 02:44 PM Thanks for the reference, Charley. Don't have that volume yet. I will stick with my explanation, however. (Until I saw this, I thought a striker was a soccer player, and the blower was the referee... but it seems unlikely that their services would be called for aboard a packet) |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 21 May 07 - 03:33 PM What an absolute delight to see people who know how to swivel their chairs around to the bookshelves wherein the truth may be found. When I think back a few years to a time when encyclopedia salespeople were made redundant overnight by the birth of the home computer, this is truly refreshing. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie Date: 21 May 07 - 04:10 PM I supposed by the age and length of this thread that there was no point in looking at it or adding my conviction that the phrase means for the boatswain to play on his whistle/pipe the signal for the crew to come down from the rigging. All the stuff about voice pipes, murder, kidnapping, dead horses, who called whom stupid, renaissance faires, etc., coupled with testimony as to exactly how 19th century sailors acted, felt and thought--testimony gathered, no doubt, from seances--has restored my confidence in the ability of any human being to form an opinion on any subject, regardless of familiarity with said subject or lack thereof, and to stick to it in the face of all counter-argument. Does anyone know of a site where a person can ask a question related to music and get an answer? Chicken Charlie |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 May 07 - 05:39 PM Chicken Charlie, your conviction is more convincing that the striker and speaker tube speculations. Of course mine is the most likely. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 May 07 - 05:39 PM Musical, too. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: GUEST Date: 21 May 07 - 06:54 PM So, then, you would have us believe, then, that in the complaint chantey "The Ebenezer" the phrase "If we growled they'd blow us down" referred to the officers saying "Oh, so sorry lads that you're not enjoying scraping down the masts while under weigh, here's a whistle to bring you on down and send you back comfortably into you berths." As opposed to applying the business end of a belaying pin to the noggin of the "growler." Hmmmmm? |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Barry Finn Date: 21 May 07 - 07:02 PM CC, it was on naval vessels that pipes & whistles were mostly used, merchant vessels relied of voice commands. Hi Greg, to back up your non sitings of voice/speaking tubes, I guess I'll add that I've only seen them on powered vessels & of all the many sailing vessels I've boarded never once hve I seen these but again, that doesn't mean there wasn't. Barry |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Charley Noble Date: 21 May 07 - 09:12 PM Charley Chicken- Aboard sailing naval vessels the bosun's pipe was the principal way that orders were issued to the crew. But that procedure has no connection with what happened on commercial sailing ships. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 May 07 - 09:21 PM I wonder if the chantey was ever sung by a Blackball 'packet rat'? A couple of anecdotes, but no 19th c. record. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 21 May 07 - 09:27 PM To Chicken Charlies point: I had surmised that blowing the whistle down the pipe would have been replaced with having whistles on the caps but had not given thought to calling a man down from the rigging. I think, his theory has some plausibility. I also agree with him that we have become distracted by the "Speaking Tube" debate. His was an observation from another angle and yet again I can see an opposing view being ridiculed to some degree. Entertain his idea. It is a good one. Cheers! Jim |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: GUEST Date: 21 May 07 - 09:47 PM How about this one: You see, there was this barrel down in the hold, with the bung removed. A young apprentice seaman was talking to an old AB and said, "what do you do about sex aboard ship? Says the old AB, "Whall, me, lad, down in the hold thars a barrel with no bung in in't..." And thus begun the expression "blow the man down." Did ye know that in fact there where sailing vessels with the sails UNDER the water, to take advantage of the equatorial currents? OK, another lyrical citation (from the song itself, from this site itself, but as given by Hugill): Says I, ``Oh, no, sir, you do me great wrong, (Way, hey, blow the man down) I'm a Flying Fish sailor, just home from Hong Kong!'' (Give me some time, to blow the man down) So I blew him right down, and I stove in his jaw; (Way, hey, blow the man down) Says he then, ``Young feller, you're breaking the law!'' (Give me some time...) So six months I did, boys, in Liverpool town, (Way, hey, blow the man down) For kicking and punching and blowing him down (Give me some time...) Now: If you still maintain that it had any fooking thing to do with orders, pipes, speaking tubes or anything other than kicking the crap out of some other poor sod, then you're a hopelessly obtuse piece of pseudo-intellectual flotsam and not worth the time to blow you down. But do go on and claim that the policeman was in fact aloft on the balconies of Liverpool and that the sailor in question blew on his bosun's pipe (carried by all handy AB's on shore leave) to pipe him down from his lofty architectural perch. One of the nice things about maritime music is that, in general, its students admit to 'yarning' when they are doing so and don't attempt to gain honors by being full of crap. In all seriousness, I would recommend that you take your theories to the 'heads' and deposit them in the oaken bucket and thence overboard where they'll do the most good. And leave the rest of us who've taken years or decades to learn this material and to discern its actual origins alone. Or have another beer and piss yourself in the back of the crowd, then wake up to sing 'The Old Dunn Cow' and drive the remaining victims out to the parking lot after the rest of us have retired to the YTB. With all due respect. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 21 May 07 - 10:28 PM I didn't read all of the last submission. Some thinly disguised swearing and yet another version of this song along with some trash talk by someone who doesn't have the decency to show her name, adds nothing to meaningful debate. I came into this thread thinking that I knew the answer but hopefully with an open mind. I cannot accept "Strike the Man" or "Kill the Man" or even "Knock the Man Down" as being the correct answer. Even the most generous use of poetic license will not make this work for me. Chicken Charlies theory is the best yet and I am fairly convinced that he is correct. If asked, in the future I will most definitely say that the phrase means for the boatswain to play on his whistle/pipe the signal for the crew to come down from the rigging. It just makes the most sense and the man deserves credit for that. No doubt, you will all agree. Thank You, Chicken Charlie. (if that's your real name) |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 May 07 - 11:38 PM This fragment from a man who sailed in the last years. Support for Chicken Charlie? BLOW THE MAN DOWN Wm. H. Smith MS; coll. 1880's-1890's Blow me right up, and it's blow me right down, To me wey-hey, blow the man down; We'll blow him right up, and we'll blow him right down; Give me some time to blow the man down. p. 21, Edith Fowke, Ed., 1981, "Sea Songs and Ballads from Nineteenth Century Nova Scotia: The William H. Smith and Fenwick Hatt Manuscripts," Folklorica, NY and Boston. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 21 May 07 - 11:53 PM As the politician would say.. "It does and it doesn't, if you know what I mean". I think it does. Q: Your contributions to this thread have been as entertaining as they were, helpful. Along with Charley, Barry, Liz and some others, you have convinced me that my theory was probably wrong. In addition to that, you changed the tone of the discussion to a point where others could feel more comfortable offering their opinions. Hopefully, we will have the opportunity to do this with some other piece. Cheers! Jim |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: mg Date: 22 May 07 - 12:29 AM one thing in music..nothing has to make sense..in fact sometimes that is what makes a song neat..not knowing what it means. mg |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Waddon Pete Date: 22 May 07 - 03:56 AM Hello, I approach this thread with temerity...so many good contributions! Yet I do have a sympathy with mg's post! I didn't have to swivel my chair to the bookcase Jim...maybe move a couple of ornaments to get the book out...but Brewer's dictionary of Phrase and Fable (1870) gives a little more insight... I'm not convinced by "blow the man down" as a phrase that anyone would use to describe thumping someone. Brewer suggests.... blow...as the wind blows blow sky high....give a good scolding blow...to inform against a companion blow...blow me...blow me down...an oath I have always favoured the last definition myself. Hope it helps! Best wishes, Peter |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Charley Noble Date: 22 May 07 - 08:57 AM Peter- Brewer's interpretation might cover part of the range of shanties where "blow" is used but I don't think one can rule out the physical "blow." And at this point, and it's er-lye in the morning, I wouldn't rule out that the big bruisin' shantyman might have been singing something such as: I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow the man down!" and that somehow our revered collectors did not accurately note what they were hearing. Now you've all got me re-thinking this whole question. It's true that many of the shantymen who sang for collectors were well past their prime when they did so, and they may have dropped a word or two or slurred a key phrase. Hell, I've been known to do that after only a couple of ales. Anyone want to pipe us to grog? Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Tootler Date: 22 May 07 - 09:11 AM Tootler: We are on the Internet. I can't give you documented evidence of anything, on this medium. No-one can. That's a cop-out if ever I saw one. It is perfectly possible to list published sources which people can go and check if they wish, as someone did earlier with a reference to books by Stan Hugill, who is an accepted authority. This is an informal forum and strict academic rigor is not looked for, but I suggest that a request for evidence should be treated seriously and not dismissed out of hand. I am not arguing here about which theory is correct, but about demonstrating that your theory has a reasonable basis. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Waddon Pete Date: 22 May 07 - 09:21 AM Thanks Charley, You bring the glasses and I'll bring the bottle! Whereas "blow the man down" is a great phrase to sing, it seems a little "la de da" when spoken! "I say, you chaps...blow that man down will you?" I can't see our bruisin' shanty man speaking like that! More likely "Way hay and a smack in the gob!" However...that would be more difficult to rhyme...unlike down! Fascinating! Mind you ~ you can say anything in a song....! BTW heard some-one say "Well blow me down!" today when told something they found surprising! Best wishes, Peter |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 May 07 - 12:58 PM Searching the 19th c. reports of "Blow the Man Down." There are a few fragments. Nothing that relates the song to knocking a man down so far. From P. A. Hutchison, 1906, collected on merchant ships, near the end of the 19th c. I'll sing you a song, a good song of the sea, To my ay, ay, blow the man down; I trust that you'll join in the chorus with me, Give me some time to blow the man down. "Related to it" is "Blow, Boys, Blow," given in four verses: Lyr. Add: BLOW, BOYS, BLOW! Yankee ship came down the river, Blow, boys, blow! Her masts did bend, her sides did shiver, Blow, my jolly boys, blow! The sails were old, her timbers rotten, Blow, boys, blow! His charts the skipper had forgotten, Blow, my jolly boys, blow! Who do you think was skipper of her? Blow, boys, blow! "Old Preaching Sam," the noted scoffer, Blow, my jolly boys, blow! She sailed away for London city, Blow, boys, blow! Never got there, what a pity! Blow, my jolly boys, blow! This, in turn, Hutchison says, is "closely related" to: Blow, boys, blow, For Californy, O! We're bound for Sacramento To dig the yellow gold. These seem to have originated in the 1850's. He further relates them to: Good-bye, my love, good-bye, I cannot tell you why, I'm off to Californy To dig the yellow gold. P. A. Hutchison, Mar. 1906, Jour. American Folklore, vol. 19, no. 72, pp. 16-28. More later. |
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Subject: Lyr, Add: Blow a Man Down From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 May 07 - 02:03 PM "Well blow me down!" As an oath, 18th c. 1867, Clark, "Seven Years of a Sailor's Life," : "Hallo, Charlie, blowed if I saw you before." Lighter (Historical Dictionary of American Slang) accepted the 'knock-down' interpretation, but his earliest (1886) quotation is from an article that makes no comment about the meaning. Jour. Amer. Folklore- "Blow the man down in the hold below." Lyr. Add: BLOW A MAN DOWN Hatfield, coll. 1886 'Ahkera' O 'low me some time to blow a man down! Too ma hay ho, blow a man down. Blow the man down in the hold below, O give me some time to blow a man down! From starboard to larboard away we will go! (Too ma hay ...) From larboard to starboard away we will go! (Give me ...) O, hip, hip, hip, and away we will go! (Too ma hay ...) We'll rise and shine and ma-ake her go! O Give me some time to blow a man down! "Possibly the most widely used shanty. The melody was practically the same in all versions, which usually had much longer, and widely divergent texts." "The working-crew consisted of eight strapping Jamaica Negroes." The crossing was from Pensacola to Nice, France, 84 days. With score. Hatfield, James Taft, "Some Nineteenth Century Shanties," Jour. American Folklore, 1946, vol. 59, no. 236, pp. 108-113. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: JWB Date: 22 May 07 - 02:15 PM So far I count four theories of the meaning of "blow" in the chantey: 1. Whistle in a voice tube on a ship 2. Strike a blow 3. Pipe hands down from aloft 4. Expel flatus as propulsion Amazingly, no one over the years this thread has existed has theorized that it's a sexual term (Guest on 5/21/07 at 9:47 came close). Many chanteys had "dirty" verses, and I think we should add the theory that in Blow the Man Down, the B word refers to felatio. Horny sailors, nothing but other men around for months on end... Let's not be closed minded, here. You know, if we really applied ourselves, I'm sure we could think up lots more theories. Don't hold back, 'Catters! Jerry |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Jim Lad Date: 22 May 07 - 03:22 PM Q: "Blow the man down in the hold below." seems to support my theory. Before I decided to accept another, that is. You're really messing with my mind now! Good one. Jim |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 May 07 - 05:32 PM Up above, mg made a very sensible comment. Of, course, we will all ignore it. More early "Blow the Man Down" to come, if I can find the sources. The Traditional Ballad Index doesn't list any verifiable 19th c. versions, but the compilers didn't have access to much older material. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Charley Noble Date: 22 May 07 - 08:47 PM When I'm more sober I'll post some excerpts from C. Fox Smith and Joanna Colcord. However, two White Russians after a hard day of rebuilding the front steps doesn't leave a whole lot of energy. Yes, I'm blowed for sure! The "Blow, me bully boys, blow" of the Congo River shanty appears to me to be a different use of the term "blow." More to do with encouraging the ship to sail than bullying the crew. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Charley Noble Date: 23 May 07 - 08:47 AM It's er-lye in the mornin' and according to Joanna Colcord, SONGS OF AMERICAN SAILORMEN, © 1938, pp. 53-57, "Blow the Man Down" was primarily associated with the Atlantic Black Ball Line (not to be confused with the Australian Black Ball Line): It should be noted that in those days, "blow" meant "knock." C. Fox Smith has an extended discussion of "Blow the Man Down" in A BOOK OF SHANTIES, © 1927, p. 49, but no direct reference to the meaning of "blow." However, in one of the versions she includes of the shanty the meaning of the word is unambiguous: So they gave me three months all in Liverpool town -- To me way-ay, blow the man down! For fighting a p'leeceman and blowing him down -- Give me some time to blow the man down! Incidently, there is more evidence in Colcord that she and C. Fox Smith were well aware of each other; they do have a record of correspondence in the Colcord archives. Colcord quotes large passages from Smith's SAILOR-TOWN DAYS with regard to background for "Blow the Man Down." It's possible that the big East Indies ships of the early 19th century also used bosun's pipes for ordering the crews to work; they emulated the Royal Navy practices in many ways. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 May 07 - 12:48 PM "It should be noted that in those days, "blow meant knock." Wrong, there were many meanings attached to 'blow' by mid-19th c. 1. stolen goods- "He has bit the blow" means he has stolen the goods. 2. to smoke- How the swell funks his blower... 3. To blow the gab- to confess 4. To blow the groundsils- To lie with a woman (on the ground). A nautical usage. A few of the many slang terms meaning 'to knock down': ( I'll lump your jolly nob for you- I'll give you a knock on the head.) (To lace- to beat.) (To floor- to knock down). (And on 'knock,' some meanings already prevalent in 1785- To knock- To have sexual intercourse with a woman. A knock me down- strong ale or beer. From the OED: 1. to blow- to be winded. From 1440 (in print) 2. To blow (the bellows) - to stir up passion. 1596 3. To blow- to sound (an instrument)- 16th c. 4. To blow- to scold or rant at. 1827 5. To blow- to drink to excess. 1500 6. To stroke, to hit. 16th c. 7. To bloom- to flower. 18th c. 8. A blow- A storm. 17th c. In various nautical works- To blow- to raise the sails (As in this 19th c. version of "Blow the Man Down:" So we'll blow the man up, and we'll blow the man down. To me ... And we'll blow him away into Liverpool Town. Oh gimme ... I'll post the rest of that chantey when I run down the reference again. Also see version 3 in the DT; a late one but echoes the meaning of an earlier one- I've got to get busy on these. The Black Ball chantey or an early version is a 'boasting' song. The line as commonly spoken of was re-organized in 1835, and that is the one sung about. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 May 07 - 12:51 PM The dictionary listings above the OED quotations are all from Francis Grose, 1785, his dictionary of cant and slang. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego Date: 23 May 07 - 12:53 PM You simply asked the time and have now been told how to build a watch - with many mutually exclusive parts, no less. |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 May 07 - 01:00 PM Not a bad summary- (old watches once being a hobby of mine). |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: JennyO Date: 23 May 07 - 01:25 PM Well blow me down! |
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Subject: RE: What does blow the man down mean? From: JennyO Date: 23 May 07 - 01:25 PM It's 100! |
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