BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 06:58 PM

Have you checked Al Jazeera?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 06:48 PM

Actually, I have yet to see ANY ( besides the statements to the Washington Post, hardly Arab media) that complain the statements are untrue- just that they are counterproductive.

If there is such a groundswell of reasonable opinion, I would like to see some examples of it. All I have so far are OFFICIAL government and media acting as if the statements are true.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 06:46 PM

Now another asshole is following suit:

The leader of Egypt's main Islamic opposition group said the Holocaust was a "myth," and he slammed Western governments for criticizing disclaimers of the Jewish genocide.

The comments by Muslim Brotherhood chief Mohammed Mahdi Akef -- made on the heels of his group's strong showing in Egyptian parliamentary elections -- echoed remarks made recently by Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, which sparked international outrage.

"Western democracies have slammed all those who don't see eye-to-eye with the Zionists regarding the myth of the Holocaust," Akef wrote in a weekly article meant as a directive to the group's followers on its official Web site.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 06:43 PM

There are some, BB. But they ain't clawing at the gates to condemn that asshole's remarks about the Holocaust being a myth.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 05:48 PM

True, Dave.

I am still looking for Arab media comments on the two qotes. Thanks all for the sites provided so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 03:49 PM

"Whoever has saved a life, it will be as if he has saved the life of all mankind"
(Quran 5:32

Islam is not the problem, Extremist Arabs are the problem, but unfortunately they hide behind the Muslim religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 02:17 PM

A bit late, Bearded Bruce, but my point is just that you tend to grab stuff and throw it out there with a "talk radio" comment, not wit--I suppose it works to provoke discussion, but it creates more heat than light, because you never present a coherent statement of your own, and people can drive trucks through the holes in your statement--

This is all fine for internet chat, but this issue needs more than BS, it needs understanding--

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 12:51 PM

BTW, if Guest, 23 Dec 05 - 08:57 PM was you, beardedbruce, Happy Holidays to you also.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 11:42 AM

Here's another one...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3185482,00.html

Saudi rejects Iran Holocaust comments

Saudi Arabia envoy to U.S. tells Washinton Post Holocaust is undisputed "historical fact"
Ynetnews

Saudi Arabia joined the world Thursday in condemning remarks by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that the Holocaust is a myth, with the Muslim country�s new ambassador to the United States saying the �horrific genocide� is an undisputed �historical fact.�

Western countries have condemned Ahmadinejad�s comments broadcast on Iranian state television Wednesday where he denied the Holocaust and suggested Israel be moved to Alaska.

"As far as Saudi Arabia is concerned, that's a historical fact, you cannot deny that, and people should move forward from that," said Prince Turki al-Faisal during an interview with the Washington Post.
Iran

The Iranian President prompted a diplomatic uproar with the west with a number of hostile comments against the Jewish State, which ranged from lambasting Israel must be �wiped off the map� to suggesting Germany and Austria offer Jews land to form a state in Europe.

"As far as Saudi Arabia is concerned, that's a historical fact, you cannot deny that, and people should move forward from that," Turki said.

The extermination of 6 million Jews by Nazi Germany during World War II "of course has affected our part of the world because much of the European and American sympathy for the Zionist movement stemmed from that horrific genocide," Turki told the Washington Post. "The occupation of Palestine since then has been a consequence of that," he added.

Defending the Arab World�s policy towards Israel, Turki said Arab states have "made our peace" with the creation of Israel. He evoked a Saudi peace plan adopted by the Arab League in 2002, committing Arab nations to a peace process with Israel should the Jewish State agree to concede land it captured during the 1967 war and the creation of the Palestinian state. The Arab World will in return recognize Israel�s right to exist and push for normalization.

"It is a done deal for us," he said. "We are not going to go back on that."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 11:27 AM

Thank you for the link, RichM. Have a good Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 11:22 AM

Here's one...

http://www.islandpacket.com/24hour/world/story/2967011p-11642898c.html

"TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - Saudis fumed Friday that Iran's hard-line president marred a summit dedicated to showing Islam's moderate face by calling for Israel to be moved to Europe, and the chief U.N. nuclear inspector said he was losing patience with the Tehran regime.

Even some of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's conservative allies in Iran were growing disillusioned, fearing he has hurt the country with his wild rhetoric. Iranian moderates also called on the ruling clerics to reel him in...

...One Saudi official, visibly angry, compared Ahmadinejad to Saddam Hussein and Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, whose renegade statements frequently infuriated other Arab leaders.

'The Iranian president seems to have lost his direction," said Gilan al-Ghamidi, a prominent commentator in Saudi media. "Iran should be logical if it wants to receive the support of the world. The president didn't score any points. He lost points.'"


I'll keep looking as time allows.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: mg
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 12:41 AM

a. I have seen and heard all sorts of moderate arab voices.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:33 PM

Thanks, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: John O'L
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:12 PM

Sorry BB, I should have pointed out, I wasn't intending to refute the statement, just supply some examples of Muslim moderate thinking. Here are a couple more.

The Role Of Islamic Groups in the Political Reform Process

Conference on Islamic Reform

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:58 PM

actually, not. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:50 PM

dread thrift?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: RichM
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:43 PM

Here's a site for Mt Scio Farm:

Mt Scio Farm

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: RichM
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:33 PM

Peace, the spice that Newfoundlanders put in stuffing could be savoury- specifically Nfld savoury like that sold by
Mt.Scio Farm
PO Box 306
St. John's NF
Canada A1C5J9

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:32 PM

Peace,

" I wish these religious fanatics would go meet their respective makers. (I include all of 'em in that statement, including Robertson.) "



I thought that in Christian theology, only those who get into HEAVEN get to meet God?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:25 PM

first sticky-

"Copyright © 2003, NO to Political Islam Campaign
Last modified: 09/22/04 12:39 EST www.ntpi.org"

second sticky-

"Updates 01/08/05 : IslamicReform online"

third sticky-

nothing at all about the quote at the top of the thread- but there is this-
"In an article titled "Welcome to the BBC! However...," Tariq Al-Homayed, editor of the London Arabic daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, criticized the Arab media, especially the television channels, which, he said, had for years been acting irresponsibly and were "ideology-laden" and "revenge-seeking." Al-Homayed said that a BBC Arabic news channel would be welcome if its administration was not left to Arab media representatives who would run it in accordance with their own ideological orientations. Al-Homayed was referring primarily to Al-Jazeera TV, as well as to Hizbullah's Al-Manar TV and the Saudi Al-Majd channel. "

fourth sticky- "Posted November 12, 2005 " last posting




So, NO comments about the statement at all. But thank you for the sites- I will check back and see what they have to say. I do note that none of them are either Arab media or government, though. CNN statement is thus not yet proven false.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: John O'L
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:17 PM

Here,

here,

here and

here are some of the voices of Muslim moderates. There are many more.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:57 PM

OK, Carol.

Happy Holidays

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:52 PM

BTW, feel free to criticize me next time I start a thread like this one if you disagree with it, beardedbruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:20 PM

And in breaking news, an Imam in Iraq is accusing Al Jazeera of being run by the Mossad (or maybe 'tool' of the Mossad). I wish these religious fanatics would go meet their respective makers. (I include all of 'em in that statement, including Robertson.)

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:19 PM

"You are quoting extremists, CarolC. Moderate "Israeli" voices are all around you. If you want to hear them, take your earplugs out (and take your blinders off)."

Your ignorance of my posting history is showing, Guest, 23 Dec 05 - 07:11 PM. I quote moderate Israelis quite frequently. And most of the time, I get criticized for it by people here in the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:16 PM

One of the most overlooked tools of terrorism is the World Wide Web component of the Internet.

Here's some interesting research on terrorist uses of the WWW.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:32 PM

sorry about that. I am busy working on the TELKOM2 s/c , so that the (Moslem) Indonesians can have control of their own TV channels and not have to go throught other countries satellites. Have to give Al Jezhera a chance to mack it's viewpoint known, you know. So, no cookie...


I really do want to know what the moderates are saying- but have not been able to find all those comments that are supposed to be there. I ask for them, and am critisized for bringing up the topic. Perhaps I will have to act this way when3ever CarolC makes a comment I don't agree with, since she seems to think it is ok...

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:25 PM

If you are BB. If not, OK anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:24 PM

OK, BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:22 PM

Peace,

"However, I don't understand why he'd want to start a thread with old news. "

This was 22 DECEMBER, 2005. If you see an article about Nazis having a rally yesterday, would you call it old news just because they also helkd rallies 70 years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:11 PM

CarolC,

The statement that the other governments had not commented may be false- I do not know- BUT the statement BEING QUOTED I have seen no indication is other than what was said.

"You are quoting extremists, CarolC. Moderate "Israeli" voices are all around you. If you want to hear them, take your earplugs out (and take your blinders off). "

Be carefull- from now on, this can be MY reply to ANY critism you make of Israeli statements. I was looking for refences to Arab press denunciations of the statement, but have been met with more bigotry than even YOU have claimed is being placed on Moslems.

Gab,
Thank you for the refences.

"DUBAI, United Arab Emirates -- Arab governments appeared reluctant Thursday to condemn Iran's president for calling the Holocaust a "myth" used by Europeans to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.

While official Arab reaction in such cases is usually slower than international reaction, any issue involving a defense of Israel is a thorny one for Arab governments, who risk appearing to side with Israel against a Muslim nation.
The comments by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, broadcast live Wednesday on state-run Iranian television, drew quick condemnation from Israel, the European Union and the United States.

However, in the United Arab Emirates, the top three Arabic-language newspapers buried the remarks deep in their Thursday editions, with no commentary. Newspapers in the country are government-controlled.

In neighboring Saudi Arabia, government-controlled newspapers picked up the statements from international news agencies and ran them on inside pages. They did not comment on them.

Arabic language newspapers circulated widely in the Arab world, such as the London-based Al-Hayat and Asharq Al-Awsat, carried the news on their front pages, but also without editorials."



"CRITICAL STATEMENT

Iran's hardline press largely rallied round the president's first Holocaust remarks but the Islamic Iran Participation Front, Iran's leading reformist party, printed a critical statement in the liberal Sharq daily on Wednesday.

"Provocation...and starting this sort of talk, which benefits neither Iranians nor oppressed Palestinians, will only increase consensus on supporting the (Israeli) regime and will unify the approach against Iran," it said. "

quotes from 2 of the 3 blue stickies- the third did not work.

So, WHERE are all those moderate Arab voices, so I can read their side?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 06:28 PM

CNN started the lie, and you passed it on, beardedbruce. Just because you haven't seen or heard the criticisms from moderate Arabs doesn't mean they didn't happen. I saw them right after the Iranian president made his remarks. I have holiday preparations to make right now, so I don't have time to hunt them up for you. But if your views about Arabs aren't prejudiced, you won't have any problem with taking the time to find them yourself, rather than automatically believing the worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:40 PM

"Bearded Bruce has a point, but, since he knows nothing about Middle Eastern politics, and is unable to formulate or express his own ideas, he cuts, pastes, and rants, hoping that people will understand--which they don't-"


And your evidence of this bigotted opinion?


As for the QUOTE that
"Arab governments and media did not condemn Ahmadinejad's remarks"
THAT was what was on CNN- which I guess I am now responsible for. So, start sending me money, since you think I am CNN.

Again, I see NO criticism of the comment, just of me for mentioning it... Seems like that tells somnething about the people responding here.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 02:24 PM

Savory. THANK YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 02:22 PM

Not in the country of Germany. But a new country on lands forfeited by the Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 02:17 PM

Thanks, Peace. And to you as well. I answered your question about the herb in this thread...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=87486&messages=12

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:42 PM

Would you care to live in a country that was responsible for the slaughter of six million of your people?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:41 PM

I agree with you that Isreal will stay where it is. But don't you find it at least a little interesting? I mean it would seem like it would be fitting, don't you think? Punishment fit the crime and all that. We wouldn't be having all of this bruhaha for the past half century if a Jewish state were in former German territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:40 PM

I don't know that BB was putting forth an agenda. However, I don't understand why he'd want to start a thread with old news.

I am also aware that some people/news stations and papers were very courageous in taking a stance against that idiot in Iran. Hope you and yer hubby have a wonderful Christmas, Carol.

PS If you would, please ask yer hubby for me what the herb is that Newfies put in stuffing. I have eaten it, love the taste, and been going nuts for three days trying to remember what it is. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:34 PM

No they're not, Peace. The moderates spoke up quite clearly. beardedbruce and the people he gets his news from choose to ignore those voices because moderate voices don't help them promote their war agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:21 PM

PS Likely many of the 'moderates' are afraid to voice their moderation--maybe worried about a bullet in the head. Can't blame 'em for that worry.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:19 PM

"shouldn't they take responsibility for the creation of a Jewish state on former German territory?"

That dog won't bark. Israel has been and will continue to be a State, right where it is. Since 1948. That good enough for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Grab
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:10 PM

Bruce, I went Googling to support your assertion that "Arab governments and media did not condemn Ahmadinejad's remarks."

The Saudis did
An Iranian paper did
A nice summary of the situation from the AP, including rejection of the comments by a Palestinian paper linked to the Palestinian Authority - although in general this makes it clear that most hid it on the inside pages without comment.

For my part, I'm waiting for a moderate BeardedBruce voice...

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:40 AM

Iranians are not Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:37 AM

The notion of an Jewish state in Germany was interesting. Since the Germans killed so many Jews, shouldn't they take responsibility for the creation of a Jewish state on former German territory?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:33 AM

Thank you M.Ted; a succinct and sensible summary. And worth more than half a hundred odd snip'n'pastes from Bearded Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:14 AM

BTW, Moderate "Arab" governments and media did indeed condemn Ahmadinejad's remarks. I saw several stories that were specifically about those condemnations. For CNN or anyone else to say otherwise is a lie. And you are helping them to spread that (prejudiced) lie, beardedbruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:10 AM

You are quoting extremists, beardedbruce. Moderate "Arab" voices are all around you. If you want to hear them, take your earplugs out (and take your blinders off).

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:01 AM

Bearded Bruce has a point, but, since he knows nothing about Middle Eastern politics, and is unable to formulate or express his own ideas, he cuts, pastes, and rants, hoping that people will understand--which they don't-

There is an incredible amount of anti-Israeli/anti-Jewish feeling in the Middle East--and it is increasing.

It is true that Israel hasn't always been exactly what you'd call a good neighbor, and also true that the Palestinian/Israeli situation has an unfortunate history that has tainted both sides. Given that, though, Israel is a small country in a big region, and plays little to no role in the day to day lives, and poitics, of most Arabs and Moslems--

The reality is that there is little political or economic stability in the Middle East, and where it exists at all, it is at the price of great social, political, and religious repression. There are hundreds of political groups vying for power, and, as we well know, the easy way to gather a following is to create a vile, despicable, and evil enemy, and lead the fight against it--

Because of the unfortunate Palestinian situation, Israel is a great target, and all the racist, anti-Semitic lies that have been so useful for Western demigogues are being dredged up and put to use again--That's the point--

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: PeteBoom
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:28 AM

I've run into a fair number of people in the States who would agree with the sentiments expressed. Of course, they'd be a little perplexed to discover they'd agreed with an "Aa-rab" and may react in an eratic fashion. They have "proof" that all the people who go on about the "so-called Holocaust" are part of the left-wing-liberal-Jewish conspiracy.

I wonder if Rush Limbaugh knows he's a liberal?