BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites

Subject: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: TIA
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 09:56 AM

Good weapons are instruments of fear;
all creatures hate them.
Therefore followers of the Tao never used them.
The wise man prefers the left.
The man of war prefers the right.
Weapons are instruments of fear;
they are not a wise man's tools.
He uses them only when he has no choice.
Peace and quiet are dear to his heart.
And victory no cause for rejoicing.
If you rejoice in victory, then you delight in killing;
If you delight in killing, you cannot fulfill yourself.
On happy occasions precedence is given to the left, on sad occasions to the right.
In the army the general stands on the left, the commander-in-chief on the right.
This means that war is conducted like a funeral.
When many people are being killed, they should be mourned in heartfelt sorrow.
That is why a victory must be observed like a funeral.

from Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, #31

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:13 AM

If you rejoice in victory, then you delight in killing

Indeed

Thanks for that quote from Lao Tzu, TIA.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: kendall
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:28 AM

Such wisdom is lost on war mongers.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:31 AM

War is never good.

However, I am glad that we all do not speak German, either.

Now, isn't it time you went to go frolic in the meadow with the butterflies?

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:38 AM

Many of us are Pro-peace- This does not mean that we agree with each other on the means to achieve that peace.

Sometimes action is required to prevent a larger conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 11:29 AM

Martin,

Stop being such an ass. Nobody denies the fact that it was right to stop Hitler, and BTW, had he won you would not have been speaking any language at all, my friend.

The Iraq conflict does not equate in any sense with WW2. To invade a sovereign nation on false pretences, having doctored initially suspect intelligence to support that action, does not afford much opportunity to take a high moral stance. To make an unholy mess of handling the aftermath of that ill considered action, does nothing for the credibility of the governments involved. To place authority in the hands of a man who is voted out, at the first opportunity, by that nation says much about the stupidity of those who thought he would be acceptable.

The fact that the man in charge is still talking about victory, in spite of the above, leads one seriously to doubt his ability to do the job for which he was elected.

George W Bush is, without doubt, the most unmitigated disaster of a president ever elected in the United States.

This post is not to to be considered pro-terrorist. I regard them as somewhat lower than pond life. You may consider it as Anti Bush, if you wish, as I really don't care. It is definitely PRO-AMERICAN, as I truly believe that America is a great country still, though much of the world would disagree at the moment.

What is needed is to shed your current crop of corporate lackeys, and elect an honest government. It doesn't matter if that is Republican or Democrat (they are only names), so long as it is honest. The right men are there, if you look hard enough.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 11:40 AM

One of the factors contributing to our dilemma, I think, is semantic; our words of choice do not encourage us to think clearly. Take the 'War on Terror' - are we seriously saying that we are conducting a 'war on FEAR'? That is complete and utter nonsense. War of any kind creates and promotes fear.

I know, I know. That's shorthand for a 'war on TERRORISM'. But that too is poorly thought out. One cannot forever run around behind multiple others, putting out fires, responding to crisis, punishing and killing the aggrieved perpetrators and in the process raising up more terrorists. There will ALWAYS be a next generation, which means that the task is endless and the goal unachievable. The ONLY thing that stands a chance of eliminating terroristic acts is eliminating the causes. And that requires listening, learning, thinking...

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Amos
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 11:47 AM

It is typical of the current PR-headed power center to come up with an expression like "War on Terror" which is semantically null, names no enemy, and abuses the concept of war by posing in a ridiculous stance that has no end to it. Does Bush think "terror" is going to surrender, or sign a document committing to the end of hostilities?

By steering the nation into an untenable posture of war against a non-entity (terror is not an identity on whom one can wage war, after all) Mister Bush has craftily undercut the workings of the nation WITHOUT solving the problem with which the nation is confronted. This is why I continuously question his competence.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 12:50 PM

Agreed, Amos. Ah, yes...when will TERROR give in, and come crawling forth from the shadows and surrender? LOL! What a sad situation it is. Can we yet expect an official "War Against Evil"? Boy, that one could just go on forever and ever...being the snake that attempts to devour its own tail.

Anyway, Hurrah for Lao-Tse! (or Lao Tzu) He remains profoundly on the mark. Taoism is the healthiest and sanest philosophy out there, in my opinion.]

The "left" as Lao Tse says, by the way, has fairly little to do with present political notions of Left and Right. It is the female aspect in Nature...that is, it is the quality of flexibility and yielding, as opposed to rigidity and resisting. It flows like water. The "right" resists like rock. Water will always conquer rock in time, and can easily flow around it. The rock wears away. The water endures. The water conquers by not resisting, but by simply flowing in ease along the most harmonious path.

Another example: A tree which appears very strong and rigid (the way of the "right") will break in a huge windstorm. A tree which is flexible and giving will bend, but not break. It will survive the storm. The flexible tree is of the "left". The rigid tree is of the "right". Masculine archetype tends toward "right", feminine toward "left", but you can always have cases of a woman who is typically "right" in her nature or a man who is "left" in his nature, so it is not necessarily determined by a person's gender at all.

Those statements are allegorical, and can be applied to any human situation if you understand how to apply them.

Or...they're completely meaningless...if you don't. ;-)

Find anything inflexible in yourself, and you will find that which will eventually cause you (and others?) pain and loss in life. Flexibility of both body and mind is most desirable and healthful. Flexibility also is indicative of a peaceful mind. Rigidity is indicative of a fearful mind. The fearful go to war frequently, because their fear drives them to. The peaceful fight only when they must.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 01:27 PM

"Beauty is truth, truth beauty,

That is all ye know on earth and all ye need to know."


John Keats

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 01:28 PM

Lovely.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 01:29 PM

Cut off too soon. The above "Ode On a Grecian Urn" is one of the most inane poems in the English language. I was comparing it to the translated words at the head of this thread. Just because it scans don't make it wise or true. Even Lao Tzu had his off days.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 01:41 PM

Naw...you just don't get his meaning, that's all.

I think that Robert E. Lee and James Longstreet would have found much truth to ponder in Lao-Tse, following their experiences in the great Civil War. And Ulysses S. Grant too. A victory IS observed like a funeral, by those who have truly grasped the cost of that victory. Wellington made some such observation too, after Waterloo. No war is worth the loss of even one mother's child.

It all looks so glorious at the start...bands playing, people cheering, flags waving, cavalry charging. It looks like one giant mess of tragedy at the end. And it is. Wise men do not love weapons, and they use them only when there is no other choice whatsoever. Unwise men always find plenty of handy excuses to kill the "evil ones" and seek glory.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 02:09 PM

Even Lao Tzu had his off days

Fortunately, the day he wrote the piece quoted above was not one of his "off" days. Maybe some day you'll have a day like that one yourself, robomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Amos
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 03:17 PM

The close link between truth and beauty is anything but inane; they are both frequencies that it takes a living being to be able to perceive.

A good topic for long reflection, RM.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 05:23 PM

Well said, Amos. "Living" would require having a functioning heart as well as a talking head, wouldn't it?

Robots, after all, can be designed so as to have talking heads...and they can perform exquisitely technical precision tasks, but they are not among the living. No robot has yet written good poetry. I wonder why? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 06:12 PM

had he won you would not have been speaking any language at all, my friend. (Don T.)

Not your usual language, Don, but even when arguing with MG you shouldn't sink so low to say 'be glad to be alive and shut up', just a tiny bit nicer.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Amos
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 06:46 PM

LH:

I don't think of robots or other reactive systems as "living" no matter how good the imitation.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 06:51 PM

So, uh, Bush isn't alive?

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 06:59 PM

From what I hear, Peace, only from the neck down.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 08:21 PM

If Bush isn't alive, how come so many of you are sending him Christmas baskets full of pretzels, hmmm? ;-)

Regarding Keats little urn ode, that piece of crap has been bugging me since junior high, the artificial depths of equating truth to beauty and the flippant ending "all ye need to know" have been to me a marker of distinguishing how nice things sound from how stupid they can be, the hallmark of the poet-politician.

Lao Tzu is not quite as dumb (remembering after all that it's a translation we're being asked to receive as currant wisdom) but it's a simplistic reification to insist that weapons are instruments of fear. Fear is not a thing and as a concept it is relative. The burglar's weapon might be fear alone, my gun under the pillow might be the burglar's fear and my security.

Ani Difranco said "Any tool is a weapon if you know how to hold it" and Arlo Guthrie wrote on his guitar "This tool kills fascists."

The point being made about not celebrating the death of one's enemy is valid, but it's not the same as rejoicing in victory. There was no harm in rejoicing in VE Day and VJ Day, it meant we were no longer killing and being killed, that our servicemen and women would be on the way home, that families would be re-united. That's not a celebration of blood lust.

So yeah, Lao Tzu was having an off day, if not his translator.

Let's cut the second rate high school roundtable and pay attention to what words really mean, and the distinction between what sounds fine and what is fine.

Subject: A gift for Peace
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 08:46 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/peacewar.jpg

Peace this is yours in return for your kindness.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Amos
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:03 PM

Sweet stuff, Donuel.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: DougR
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:15 PM

Right! Just the thing us Pro-Bushies are looking for, advice from Lefties! Personally I'd find a good recipe for BBQ rub more usable.


DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: GUEST,Sissy
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:25 PM

Let's beat the shit out of all those war mongers.

And yes Bush is the modern day equivalent of Hitler. See how many millions he has burned in gas chambers after all of their wealth is stripped away? Bush does the same thing too.

That purple ink has a slow acting poison in it. In a few years they will all keel over and Bush will have all that oil to himself.

Anybody that can't see that is blind fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:38 PM

The point being made about not celebrating the death of one's enemy is valid, but it's not the same as rejoicing in victory. There was no harm in rejoicing in VE Day and VJ Day, it meant we were no longer killing and being killed, that our servicemen and women would be on the way home, that families would be re-united. That's not a celebration of blood lust.

Little Hawk is right, robomatic. You don't get his meaning. It's a delicate difference but it is an important one, and it's definitely there.

In the context of the quote from Lao Tzu, rejoicing in victory is not the same thing as rejoicing in deliverance. On VE day and VJ day, the people who were rejoicing in the fact that they were no longer being killed forced to kill were rejoicing in deliverance. Rejoicing in victory would be what Hitler would have done had he won.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: GUEST,Bobert Still in North Carolina
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:38 PM

No, let's not, Sissy...

Dumb idea...

Don't quit yer day job quite yet....

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:45 PM

Thanks, Carol. You got it. Everyone does indeed rejoice in deliverance after a war is over. (Well, everyone except a guy like Patton, who was only really happy when he had more battles to fight, it seems...)

Doug - For gosh sakes...READ some Lao-Tse or other Taoist literature. He doesn't mean the word "left" the way you do. I recommend this neat little book: "The Tao of Pooh" by Benjamin Hoff. Also, "The Teh of Piglet", by same. Fun to read, easy to read, and right on the mark.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:51 PM

Donuel,

I am so impressed and so grateful that you'd think of me. Thank you so very much. Very, very much.

As always, it is a beautiful piece of art and the message is a good one and powerful one. But this one will always have a special meaning to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:20 AM

Hi Wolfgang,

I hadn't thought of it in quite those terms. That sentence was intended as extra emphasis on just how inappropriate Martin's comparison with the Iraq conflict was.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:11 AM

I suspect that DougR is a clandestine Lao Tzu scholar. When he pronounces his infamous "horsepucky", he is actually saying "peace".

Observe:

#46

"When the Tao is present in the universe, the horses haul manure.
When the Tao is absent from the universe, war horses are bred outside the city.
There is no greater sin than desire;
No greater curse than discontent;
No greater misfortune than wanting something for oneself.
Therefore he who knows that enough is enough will always have enough."

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:37 AM

CarolC and Little Hawk:

I think it's you who agree with me. My point is that the headline quote attributed to Lao Tzu does not make that very point, you are reading that into it. In other words, we've moved on.

Tried "The Tao of Pooh" and just couldn't get into it, mainly I guess because there is so much to learn from original Pooh.


#46

"When the Tao is present in the universe, the horses haul manure.
When the Tao is absent from the universe, war horses are bred outside the city.
There is no greater sin than desire;
No greater curse than discontent;
No greater misfortune than wanting something for oneself.
Therefore he who knows that enough is enough will always have enough."


Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp
or what's a heaven for?

Robert Browning

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 12:53 PM

I think it's you who agree with me. My point is that the headline quote attributed to Lao Tzu does not make that very point, you are reading that into it. In other words, we've moved on.

Moved on? But you are still discussing it. But to try to discredit the whole section quoted by TIA by focusing on only one line is disengenuous and wrong. I highlighted that one line myself because I happen to like it. But that doesn't mean it can stand alone in the absense of the rest of the piece. Take it out of context and you can make a case that it is wrong. Put it back in context and you get the real meaning. Once again, you are focusing only on the parts so you can deny the whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Amos
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:43 PM

And surely, a man's thought should exceed his sight --
Or what's a Meta for?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:48 PM

For cows in which to graze.

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: DougR
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 03:40 PM

Uh, TIA, I don't know any Pro-War Bushites. I don't know anyone who is Pro-War. Recognizing that sometimes wars are necessary to solved some conflicts does not mean one is Pro-War. It simply means that some folks are realists, and think like realists.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Troll
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 05:07 PM

In combat, the scariest things are the guys who like it and want to be there.

Few soldiers LIKE war.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Amos
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 05:14 PM

DougR:

The rationalization that war is necessary is the outside pale of defense adopted by those who claim they are being "realistic".

It is a terrible shame to waste so popular a rationalization on a meretricious ne'er-do-well snake's belly like w.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 06:55 PM

It's kinda hard to get things sorted out when it reaches the satge of "He hit me back first."

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: DougR
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 12:17 PM

I'm not too sure about this, Amos, but if I were you, I wouldn't expect to receive any invitations to a Bar-B-Que at the ranch in Crawford next year.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Advice for Pro-War Bushites
From: Amos
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 12:21 PM

Hell, I yam SO disappointed; actually I can muster all the half-wit companions I need right here in San Diego, Doug, but thanks anyway. Only difference is the ones I know earn an honest living.

A