BS: Older Drivers are Killers

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 09:39 PM

Here in Austrlia they have on the news road deaths/accidents and most of them are caused by YOUNG PEOPLE.

only 25% of road accidents are caused by 'old' people and that means 75% of accidents are caused by young people.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 07:56 PM

Understanding and thoughts with you right now Bruce. That was a terrible experience you have lived.Focus on the kids and get smiling again for their sake. The roads would be a lot safer if judges made examples of ALL drivers. Take care friend and the two kids need you. remember that and honour your partners memory.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Joybell
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 05:17 PM

I was wondering when the "slow drivers cause accidents!" idea would show itself here. It's a common statement here in Aus. where you are constantly tailgated, abused, and overtaken while driving at the speed limit. Not allowed into a right turn lane when you need one.
I drive on country roads - narrow, winding, no clear views ahead, and the speed at which I'm overtaken every time I drive takes my breath away. I'm doing 100 kms. (the speed limit) so I guess I'm one of those elderly slow drivers! Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Tootler
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 04:56 PM

They drive below the speed limits causing many to overtake with risks

I take it, Royston Robbie, you include the idiot in a BMW who passed me at at least 60 on a road where 50 was probably too fast, or the pratt who overtook on a bend at night when I was doing 40 because of restricted vision ahead. Or many other similar incidents too numerous to mention.

It isn't the older driver driving carefully at a speed he or she judges to be safe that is at fault but the driver overtaking with risks who is at fault and is the cause of the accident when it happens. If you are one of these, you are not fit to be on the road whatever your age.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 09:55 AM

gee, thanks guest of 30 Dec 05 - 03:04 PM :)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Naemanson
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 11:35 PM

My first thought when I saw this thread is that the initial poster left off a word. He should have written, "Older Drivers are Killers TOO."

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 05:16 PM

To say that a slow driver caused someone to pass is like saying that the weather caused the accident.

Studies have shown that inattention causes most accidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 04:32 PM

Childrens toys have no business on the roads at all....

That'd do for motor cars then...

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Fibs Fan
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 03:04 PM

You'll be OK for Mouth to Mouth resuscitation round here FM

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 02:36 PM

(p.s. Wesley S - it's standard in the UK for people on certain medications or who have certain illnesses to have their licences restricted (or indeed revoked entirely: http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/dmed1.htm)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 02:32 PM

Hi nutty - I have similar restrictions due to medication: I only have a one year licence now (renewable if my condition remains stable). It's a bit of a pisser really - I had some very cool categories on my licence (minibus, 3.5 tonne truck with trailer, that sort of thing) that got retracted too. I have never caused an accident in 12 years of driving. And they took away my lovely Norn Iron licence too and made me have an auld UK one instead, gah!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 01:54 PM

Nutty - You are restricted because of insulin ? Details please. Have you passed out due to glucose levels ?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Mrs Trellis
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 01:44 PM

Pancreatic junkie :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: nutty
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 12:08 PM

I am a driver on a restricted license. I have to re-apply every 3 years and I could have my license withdrawn at any time, for any misdemeanour.

My crime is that I drive constantly under the influence of drugs ....in my case insulin as I am a diabetic.

I also have restrictions placed on me with regard to the type and size of vehicles that I am allowed to drive.

In all other respects I am a very competent driver. Even now , although retired, I cover approx 12,000 miles a year, have held a license for over 30 years and have never caused an accident.

I would maintain that I am far safer than many many other drivers, particularly those who knowingly drive while their senses are impaired by drugs and/or alcohol.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: tarheel
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:42 AM

Well bruce,sorry to hear about your loss due to an elderly driver,but as an (almost elderly driver now...69)there is an ole song by the late Charlie Poole that goes..."so remember while you're young, old age to you will come,then you'll be Old and Grey, and only in the way!"
it's true too,bruce...
tar

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:02 AM

It is easy to look at someone of advanced years and make assumptions. Not everyone over the age of 65 has Alzheimers or dementia.   Most still have all their motor skills.   

There is a great deal of bigotry concerning age, and most of it comes from people who have not reached that stage in their life. All bigotry comes from not understanding something that is different from the viewers lifestyle.   Skin color, sex, religion and age are all targets for descrimination. People make assumptions and then try to find sterotypes that fit the image.   

A person with Alzheimers should not be behind the wheel - but neither should a 25 year old with very poor vision or impaired motor skills. Look at the cause, not the carrier.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Mo the caller
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 09:05 AM

I am 62. My car has been damaged twice in the last few years. Once in slow, stop-start traffic by young lad "sorry, I dropped my cigarette" who ran into the back of me.
The other time we were in a house, heard a bang, and found that my parked car had been hit so hard that it was undriveable. We invited the driver (in his seventies I'd guess) into the house to take his details, it became obvious the he was more confused than just from the bump. He had difficulty remembering his present address. We fetched his wife, who said he had had other accidents recently.
Afterwards I felt concerned enough to give the police the details, his insurance company also knows what is happening but he is still seen driving in the area.
It can be hard to know when to give up. People who suffer heart problems can be confused at times, OK others.
And being without a car when too old to walk to the shops is not good.
Maybe the supermarkets could work out some scheme to deliver cheaply to all the OAPs in certain area on a particular day.
My car is insured by Saga, who stress the safety of careful older drivers, maybe my renewal form should have some questions, or suggestions as to the alternatives to driving, when the time comes to stop.
The UK system where your own GP signs the form to say you are fit to drive is dodgy. It would damage his relationship with you and he knows how you need to drive.
Dont know the answer, maybe we should all ride bikes and save the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 08:27 AM

My Dad had his first ever accident at the age of 87. He was on his way to see my mother, who was terminally ill in hospital, when a 4x4 in front stopped suddenly and he ran into the back. His licence was taken away after that and he never drove again.
In my father's defence I have to say that I was often a passenger in his car and never once felt unsafe; he was a careful and considerate driver.
The fact is that there are far too many cars on the road - everyone, including family pets, now have a car! And far too many of these drivers think that only they have a right to be on the road and only their careless, selfish and eccentric driving style is acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 06:04 AM

Royston Robbie, your comments on older drivers are so patently ludicrous as to merit no consideration. I suspect that they say more about your attitudes as a driver, than about those you so arrogantly deride.

I suspect that you belong to that dangerous breed of middle aged tailgaters (fortunately a minority), who believe that they have a God given right to proceed unhindered by other road users, regardless of conditions, common sense, or safety.

In the forty years that I have held a CLEAN driving license, I have had two accidents. In both cases I was rear ended by people who seem to share your contempt for anyone who obeys speed limits.

My eyes are good, I am physically fit, and I had my reflexes tested three years ago, the results showing above average (not above average for my age, just above average). I am almost 65.

I do not travel everywhere with a half mile tail of frustrated motorists, even when towing my caravan, and have never occupied an overtaking lane for one second more than was necessary for safety.

Pray tell me on what possible grounds you would demand that I be retested before being allowed to continue driving?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 05:59 AM

Thoughts

People retire at 65 in the UK, and then have to live on a reduced income, made worse by successive governments keeping their pensions non index linked.
Retaking a driving test over 65 would no doubt be mandatory, but it is equally unlikely to be free of charge. Not good news for people on a low fixed income.
The UK government derives vast sums of money from Road Tax, Excise duty on fuels, and income from speeding fines. Is it likely that they would fund these mandatory tests, even though they rake in vast sums of money from drivers? Not very likely one thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Denis More
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 05:34 AM

Let's look at the real reason why there is so much slaughter on the roads. Speed, lack of experience,drink or drugs used. older unfit drivers, careless or wreckless attitude. And all of these occur simply because there is no deterrent when it comes to sentences at the courts. How many times do you read of a drunk driver or a Joyrider killing someone and getting off or max, a few months in prison. In my local newspaper a well known guy was up in court for being caught drunk driving, no insurance, a banned driver and leaving the scene of an accident. He got six months in prison suspended for two years. Another was caught driving without insurance, he was fined 40.00 ! Cheaper than paying for insurance I'd say. Courts need to send out a clear message and until they do it will be slaughter. Do agree with the point of older drivers being tested at 65 and then every two years.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 05:02 AM

"My point is, what matters isn't who you are, or what category you fall into, it's what you do. (And about the worst common crime on the road is tailgating. Anyone of any age who drives too close to a car in front, meaning a speed where a collision would occur if the car in front ran into a block of concrete lying in the road, deserves to lose their licence for life.)" (McGrath of Harlow)

That is probably the most telling comment I have seen here. We all make mistakes. But it is the arrogant, "I know better than you," type of driving that kills people the most frequently.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:34 PM

The speed limit is just that - the top speed for that particular road. It is not the mandatory speed that vehicles should travel at.

There are occasions such as bad weather conditions, congested roads due to parking and in areas where children play when it would be foolhardy, if not criminal, to drive at the limit for the road. In the area I used to live I always drove with great caution on the road leading into mine. Paid dividends one day when a three year old ran aout from between parked cars into my path. If I had been driving at the limit, 30mph, it is highly likely that that child would be dead now. Age and experience have taught me that children don't always think about the dangers of the road and that not all parents take the best care to keep tiny children from playing near roads. Yet the number of young men who drove way over the limit on that particular road never ceased to amaze me.

Maybe retesting every three years for all drivers would be the way forward. I bet that the majority of us have picked up bad driving habits over the years. I never trust anyone who reckons that they are good drivers - it's too easy to be over confident and that can also lead to accidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:33 PM

never mind....you are judging the rest by the problems of the few. It is the same with most people who like to say 'they' and color everyone in a certain category as 'guilty'.

"All Indians walk in single file....I know, because I saw an Indian once and he was walking single file."

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Royston Robbie
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:51 PM

47 and will know when to throw to towel in and admitt my age, not grab onto the top of my car door with both hands and get out on the swing of it.Also their parking, no use of trafficators and taking the wrong lane at every road junction. Yes they feature high on my list of road murders. If they face court by the way, it's said but they held a clean licence for over 50 years and get a smile and a nice bye bye from the judge.Makes me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:27 PM

gee, Royston Robbie...we wouldn't want to mak any generalizations, would we?
"They" do NOT all " ...drive below the speed limits.."....I certainly don't, and to hear you tell it, I should have quit driving last year.

I notice you didn't specify YOUR age....let me know if you still feel this way when you are 64.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:17 PM

A mom and her teenage daughter were killed in a road rage incident here in Texas today. It seems they were in the left lane and a 25 year old male wanted to get past them. They didn't move fast enough for him so he tailgaited them and eventually bumped them hard enough to send them into the other lane of traffic where they had a head on collision. Two people killed just because someone thought they weren't driving fast enough. The 25 year old has been arrested.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Royston Robbie
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:13 PM

Older drivers are a total menace on our roads. They drive below the speed limits causing many to overtake with risks.Would put more faith in younger drivers anyday. Old coddgers have no place on our roads full stop.Take them them off at 65, just like the workplace.Talk to traffic cops about them, my brother in law is one and what he has told me said enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:59 PM

I saw a cartoon many years ago which had an elderly couple in a brand new expensive car and a young couple in an old and possibly un-roadworthy banger both shaking their fists at each other and demanding that "These old crocks should be kept off the road!"

I have been driving for 37 years now - I'm not, I hope, a worse driver, for my "advancing years" and experience but, I'm certainly a more scared one with the agressive, driving that I find particularly from younger men who seem to have no respect for speed limits, mobile phone use or even the most basic road safety. (sorry being a grumpy old woman doesn't mean I haven't just cause)
However, might I make one plea - that maybe there should be an offence for driving TOO slowly in reasonable driving conditions thereby causing extremely frustrated drivers to take possibly uncharacteristic risks.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Robert Ellis
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:56 PM

79 year old man just killed three hours ago in Broughshane Ulster. drove out of driveway of his home onto road without stopping, three people in passing car in hospital, two on danger list. So sad thoughts with all of them

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:48 PM

..and what out of interest are the statistics for accidents
caused by heart attacks/strokes while in charge of a vehicle..

a) car drivers ?

b) cyclists ?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:45 PM

caught driving without a license -> Prison

caught driving drunk -> even more Prison


caught drunk driving without a licence -> twice as much and even more Prison

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:41 PM

" Maximum age should be negotiable for each individual"
Then so should minimum age...

>
" Cyclists should be trained and tested, and not allowed on roads without"
Childrens toys have no business on the roads at all....

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:40 PM

That same law is in effect in Canada. However, that is no assurance that the newly-suspended driver with a DUI (driving [while] under the influence) doesn't then drive without a license.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:36 PM

First offense for being behind the wheel of a car while drunk should be mandatory lose of license even if there wasn't an accident.

In the UK that is the case. You lose your licence automatically for 12 months if you try to drive when over the limit, and you are spotted. The fact that there might not have been any kind of accident or driving error doesn't alter that. You might just have been stopped because you had a rear light which was a bit dim. You can get fined or jailed as well, dependimng how far over the limit you are.

Here's a page with deatils about the penalties and so forth. The limit? Two pints of beer will likely put you over it.

All seems reasonable enough to me. They're only trying to keep us from killing ourselves and other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,drive 'em out
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:23 PM

Bad & dangerous drivers of all ages need culling;

Minimum age should be raised to at least 18.

[exceptions could possibly be made for rigorously tested special licences for 17 year olds
who can prove their job depends on driving need]

Lifetime bans should be more readily imposed for 1st serious driving offense,
and also for persistent serial medium category offenders.

Maximum age should be negotiable for each individual over statutory retirement age,
dependent on regular medical competance checkups and driving skills retests.

High performance vehicles should be restricted to over 25 year olds
only after passing advanced driving course.

Car ownership should be restricted to no more than 2 per household.

Cyclists should be trained and tested, and not allowed on roads without
a valid license and roadworthy bicycle.

Motorcyclists should be legally enforced to permanently weld a sidecar
to every motorbike and only be allowed on the road
with the mother-in-law as a passenger.

fat rich middleaged Harley owners need a serious talking to about self image and fashion style..


..etc..etc..etc..


ok, some of that was not entirely serious, but I meant most of it !

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:39 PM

For every story about an older driver being a problem, there is one about one who does fine...and as has been noted, many MORE about careless young drivers. That being said, I am ready and willing to begin being tested every 2-3 years now that I am in my 60s. I know that 'some' older folks stretch it too long, and I don't want to be one of them.

My mother drove for 55 years with NO accidents, until she was 77...and a few years ago I shared driving from Maryland to Kansas & back with a man who was 88! He was amazing, alert and careful, and lived to be 98.
...maybe I've got a few years left.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:22 PM

Age has nothing to do with it - except in cases where dementia, Alzheimers or some other physical ailment is involved. There are also physical and mental conditions that should prohibit younger drivers from getting licenses as well.

I was always taught that driving is a privelage, not a right. That privelage can be taken away and I think that retests should be mandatory for all drivers. Yes it will cost money and time, but if you wish to have a license - you pay for it.

I think restrictions against drunk drivers should be harsher. First offense for being behind the wheel of a car while drunk should be mandatory lose of license even if there wasn't an accident. The potential is too risky.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:22 PM

Good one Amos !

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:10 PM

In the interest of full disclosure, I should perhaps tell everyone that I just turned 75.

I believe I am a safer driver now than when I was in the 25-40 range. (I start that at 25 because that's when I learned to drive.)

My eyesight without glasses was lousy then, and it's lousy now. But I did and do have glasses that correct very well. I assume that my reactions are not as fast as in that period of my life; true enough. But my attitude toward driving is much more settled now than then, and I don't take some chances now that I did then. I don't drive as fast.   However, I'm not the kind of a slow driver you sometimes see in older drivers who makes problems by his slow speeds in traffic.

Whether this makes you think of me as a poster child for the no-older-drivers position or the opposite (which I adopt) is neither here nor there, because generalities are not ruled by particular cases. But I thought everyone was entitled to this look into the source and (in?)validity of my previous post.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 04:58 PM

Bruce Martin told us:


The officer from Traffic Branch who dealt with me at the time of the death said that it was the third fatal accident he had dealt with in six months involving drivers over seventy.

That comment tells us nothing!

First, "involving" doesn't mean "caused by".

We need to know how many fatal accidents in toto he saw during that period. You can't have a meaningful statistical result without a large enough sample. If the sample is too small, the flukes and freak accidents and one-time circumstances can shoot your results all kerflooey. If, for example, he only saw four fatal accidents, then even three which we might assume were caused by drivers over 70 could be a fluke. If he saw sixty, three is not a huge percentage.

Supposing it's a large enough sample to be meaningful, you then need to know how the accident causes were distributed. My guess is that the causes would be overrepresented in the late-childhood (15-18) and early adulthood (19-25) groups.

As I say, the officer's comment, at least as reported, is meaningless.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 03:34 PM

younger drivers are a serious threat on our roads and glad to see the police target this group daily. When you see a boy racer you tend to know what to expect.

Surely what the police would be doing here would be focussing their attention on people who are driving too fast and aggressively? It wouldn't normally be possible,until they were stopped, to tell whether the driver was a boy-racer, a middle-aged bloke with a mid-life crisis, a woman with severe PMT, or a old person who'd lost his or her marbles.

My point is, what matters isn't who you are, or what category you fall into, it's what you do. (And about the worst common crime on the road is tailgating. Anyone of any age who drives too close to a car in front, meaning a speed where a collision would occur if the car in front ran into a block of concrete lying in the road, deserves to lose their licence for life.)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bert
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 03:25 PM

It takes two vehicles to have an accident. Just a couple of weeks ago I (age 67) had a driver come at me who was on the wrong side of the road. It was a man, I guess in his twenties. I just pulled over and let him pass.

I have been looking on the web to find statistics on traffic accidents but couldn't find any that listed accidents by the driver at fault. General statistics seem to point to high accident rates by age which starts to decline at ages around the mid forties and doesn't pick up again until the late sixties.

I guess I should be looking at taking a driving course pretty soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Arkie
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 02:48 PM

In this little town of 2800 people we have aggressive, rude drivers of every age.   As for older drivers being particularly dangerous we have had several involved in near fatal accidents. Before those accidents those drivers had been involved in minor scrapes and had amply demostrated they should no longer be behind a wheel. I have a very close friend who suceeded in persuading his father to give up driving.   Some accidents involving older drivers could be avoided and are avoided by the driver or close family members reading the signs and realizing that a person should not be at the wheel of a motor vehicle.   The same could be said of younger drivers.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Amos
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 02:18 PM

I tried to fire up a USB 2.0 external hard disk using an older driver. Crashed all to hellangone. Had to reboot and re-download the right driver.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bert
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 02:11 PM

Bike paths, a good idea, they have some here in Colorado Springs. Now how do we keep the cars off of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 01:45 PM

Bike paths ... good idea CH, I agree with you on keeping bikes off the road, and along with skateboarders ... cemetaries are good places to ride a bike in.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 01:38 PM

On the other hand, when his doctor flagged my 80+ year old father-in-law as a possible risk, he lost his driver's licence after failing his driver's test, mainly because he did not do proper shoulder checks when changing lanes.

We encouraged him to practice and try the test again using both the side mirrors and physically checking over his shoulder and he did and had his licence was reinstated.

Age never seemed to affect his driving ability, just an ingrained bad habit, which he managed to change and we never felt that anyone was at greater risk for him being on the road, despite his age or the fact that he also had some physicial handicaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 12:27 PM

"accept that we have any right to be on the road"

Didn't your mother teach you to keep your toys in the yard...   Bike paths are absolutely the way to go, cause they have NO business being on the street with motor-vehicles... or on the sidewalk with pedestrians...

When Ralph Nader was pushing for the seat-belt as mandatory gear in every car, he also invented (IIRC) a key pad system to help deter unsafe and infirm drivers... Like the old hand held game "Einstein" a key pad in the dash, when you tried to start the car would 'play' a sequence of a handful of numbers.... If you wanted your car to start, you had to play it back exactly as it was presented to you... (You may have been given 2 tries) Once you failed, your cars ignition would lock-itself-out for a certain time period. This would cut way down on the number of drunks/stoned/emotionally excited (Don't drive angry) or infirm people on the road.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 12:27 PM

Now if I could only get my hands on the SOB who talked her in to spending $500+ bucks to have her gutters cleaned on her little mobile home......