BS: Older Drivers are Killers

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 May 07 - 02:02 PM

If you ever do, rest assured you shall have it Dave.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 07 - 09:08 AM

I am indeed brusque and dissmisive, Don, that is my way. Judgemental? Never sure what people mean by that. Each and every one of us makes judgements every day of our lives. It is only those that disagree with those judgements that tend to use the phrase 'judgemental'. Which brings us to intollerance. I am only intollerant of fools and I can assure you that I am not including you in that group.

Look back at the thread again. You will see that the major cause of intollerance seems to be against cyclists for some reason. Most others are in support of older drivers like yourself.

As to my attitude being apparantly 'superior'. Well, what can I say. If you have failed to notice the many self deprecating remarks against most facets of my persona then I do not know what else will convince you that such a remark is blatantly untrue. Maybe you need to address sone sort of inferiority compex? (Just kidding btw!)

But, yes, lets call it quits. Look after yourself and your caravan. You never know when I may need your hospitality at a folk festival:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 07 - 10:43 AM

"And what, pray, is "about what you would expect from me", Don?"

Review your posts on a number of topics, Dave, and you may become aware of a tendency to be brusque, dismissive, judgemental, and to spme extent intolerant. I don't doubt that you may be a completely different persona in the real world, but I can only respond to what I see of your attitudes in this virtual one.

Re-examine the question, reading the whole of it rather than the innocuous snippet you refer to in your reply, and in spite of the smiley, it reveals a rather superior , perhaps even supercilious attitude.

Enough already, this thread is not about our disagreements
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 25 May 07 - 08:50 AM

Would you have somebody in their 80s running a country? It has happened! Bus drivers worry me! As a bunch, they look so unhealthy! Overweight, and prime for a heart attack. A friend of mine was a bus driver, and unfortunately he died during a heart by-pass operation, but he was overweight, smoked and drank too much. Bus drivers should have to pass some sort of physical aptitude test before being let loose on the general public.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 07 - 06:11 AM

as a Cyclist, I just don't like these 4x4's or people carriers that you see in town and city, I mean a 4x4 is all right for the country and a people carrier is all right if you have more than two people in you family, but not just one person or 4x4 and you jsut use it in town or the city, I mean what a waste and the pollution that you lot cause, please explain how a cyclist causes pollution

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 07 - 05:32 AM

And what, pray, is "about what you would expect from me", Don? Do you know me? Have we met? How do you 'know what to expect'. The 'snotty response' you seem to have taken so much offence about is a question. "Why not get a nice sensible economical car?" It has a question mark on the end. It also, had you noticed, has a smile on the end for all to see. You answered the question quite ably when you said you towed a caravan. That would have sufficed but for some reason you chose to go off on one. I was initialy going to post what would have been a real snotty response but I shall put your fit of pique down to a temporary lapse in judgement.

Carry on enjoying your twighlight years in whatever manner you see fit and sod the consequences! you won't be around to see them anyway...

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 07 - 04:58 AM

"I reckon they will as soon as they take up as much space as a car, cause as much polution as a car, damage the roads as much as a car and kill as many people as cars do. Fair enough?

How come you pay £190 btw - what the hell are you driving? Why not get a nice sensible economical car and pay £110 like me?:-)"



Thank you so much, Dave Polshaw for you snotty response. It's about what I would expect from you.

1. They do take up as much space as a car, weaving in and out as if their lives depend on getting closer to the front at traffic lights.
Trying to pass without killing them means pulling out so far as to be at risk of knocking over pedestrians on the far pavement.

2. I'll grant you the pollution bit, apart from that caused in the manufacturing process.

3. I'll grant you the road damage also.

4. They don't kill people. True, in general terms, but they cause accidents aplenty, they mow down elderly pedestrians on the footpaths, which has resulted in huge sums of money being wasted on largely ineffectual chicane barriers, and if they cause permanent damage, they carry NO insurance, unlike motorists who pay hundreds of pounds yearly. They also ride around in pitch darkness without bothering to purchase any form of lighting, endangering themselves and anyone they meet.

So NO, not fair enough

As for your second point, it's none of your bloody business why I drive a larger car, but I'll tell you anyway.

I am a pensioner trying to have some sort of life on the miserable pittance our government naively calls a sufficient income. I cannot afford the price of rail travel for two people, nor the price even of the cheapest B&B, and foreign holidays are a distant dream.

So, I have a caravan. Try pulling one of those with your sensible motor, and see how long it lasts, not to mention the reactions of motorists stuck behinds you as you stagger up the smallest hill. What is sensible for you, may very well not be so for others.

Before you arrogantly judge other people, you need to know something about their circumstances. Failing this, just don't judge!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GRex
Date: 25 May 07 - 03:27 AM

I have been driving regularly since 1948 with no offences, not even a parking ticket, and only two minor accidents, both of which when I was young. I'm now in my eighties and still enjoy driving. I realise that my reflexes aren't quite as good as they used to be and so drive accordingly.
             GRex

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 May 07 - 11:58 AM

Cyclists fart and shit too!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 24 May 07 - 11:50 AM

oh by the way, when i see these eejits on the road i say thank God I don't drive, I wish it was much more simpler, the horse, I mean ther only ollution you got from that was the stink of gas that came from it's arse and it's shit

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 24 May 07 - 11:48 AM

How can a cyclist cause pollution, and they are road users the same as you becuse they use the road

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Mickey191
Date: 24 May 07 - 11:39 AM

My really close calls (4 of them) were all caused by young drivers. One still haunts me-Kid traveling behind me on a straight road for over a mile. As we approach a severe bend he decides to cross the double line and pass. I slow down to a crawl-He's along side me & coming around the bend is a propane truck. He had just inches to get in front of me & miss the truck. Had I not slowed down-we would have all bought the farm.

It happens we were both headed for a hospital parking lot. I pulled in beside him - got face to face with this twerp & said:"Because of your stupidity Your Mom & Dad might be planning your funeral tonight." There was a young child in the car. Neither said a word. I hope he always remembers that.

My husband was killed by a drunk driver who got away. I think, as someone said earlier, they should have their car taken away & their license revoked for 10 yrs. Let 'em all walk!!! There is a judge who wants to have drunks have a pink license plate--nationwide. So we'll know them. That's a start.

I'm a senior who has never been stopped by a cop-let alone gotten a ticket.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 24 May 07 - 10:28 AM

Because someone worked it out that 25 percent of road accidents are caused by older drivers, whereas 75 percent of road accidents are caused by younger drivers

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 07 - 09:49 AM

Who was it said "I left home when I was 20 because my father knew nothing. When I returned 5 years later it was amazing how much he had learned..."

Mark Twain, I think.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 07 - 09:11 AM

Who was it said "I left home when I was 20 because my father knew nothing. When I returned 5 years later it was amazing how much he had learned..."

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 May 07 - 09:08 AM

"I find it astonishing that kids with little real experience seem to think they're better than us old 'uns ... "

Now when WE were young, we NEVER would have thought we were better than the old 'uns ... It's just plain unnatural ... !

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 07 - 09:03 AM

You know - either the gremlins ate a post or I have just had one deleted! I hope it's the latter - I was getting paranoid about being left out of the Mudcat conspiricy...:-)

Anyway, what I said, I think, was -

Hehehe - Nice one Richard! Don't believe the 200% obstruction though - I can usualy pass a bike easier than go round a bus or avoid a double parked delivery man in the Manchester rush hour!

Riding on pavements I agree with - but I thought you wanted then off the road anyway;-)


I don't do fast on a bike or eat lentils so no pollution on that score:-)

Cheers

D,

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 07 - 08:46 AM

"As for the accidents caused by older people, why do insurance companies charge higher premiums for younger drivers?"

Spot on, Giok. You're absolutely correct. I find it astonishing that kids with little real experience seem to think they're better than us old 'uns who've been driving for years. 43 years in my case, and not one accident.

Clearly, higher premiums are charged for younger drivers because, having their heads so far up their own arses, they have difficulty seeing the truth, let alone the road.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:24 AM

The tax paid by cars in both fuel duties and Road Tax goes mostly into the exchequer, and only about 15% of it is actually spent on building and maintaining roads. So to say your taxes help support road users is fatuous, it is fact the reverse that is true, and road users subsidise others.
As for the accidents caused by older people, why do insurance companies charge higher premiums for younger drivers?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:08 AM

Road footprint - about 30%
Obstruction of other users - about 200%
Riding on the footpahts - about 1,000%
Head down with helmet on into door of stationary car - ooh, a fair bit
Atmospheric pollution - have you ever stood next to a cyclist who having tried to do a mile in two minutes is now carrying his bike onto a train? A phew extra pounds, I think.

Oh, and then there is the association of lentils with cyclists - greenhouse gases worse than cows....

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:51 AM

I'd be quite happy to pay a proportion of the £110 on the detailed above:-) So - What are we saying? % of size? 10%? % of polution - None. % of damage to the roads and other road users? Very little I should imagine - 1%? So, lets average it out 10+0+1+1/4 = 3 3% of £110 = £3.30. Yes, I'd be happy with £3.30 a year. As to having to be tested for safety every year - Do you mean the vehicle or the driver? If it's the former, again I agree. Cars have their brakes, emmisions, windscreen wipers, chassis, bodywork etc etc etc tested at a cost of, what? £45? Seeing as very little needs to be tested on a bike how about 3% of that as well? £1.35 then. How about we go for £5 for the tax and MOT? I could live with that as long as that then gives cyclists the right to use roads without being abused and threatened by car and van drivers.

Now, if you mean the driver needs to be tested to be safe. Yes - I will happily be tested every year to make sure I am safe as soon as all other drivers are:-)

Cheers

Dave

PS - It's all academic to me - I haven't been on my bike for about 3 years! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:19 AM

So, DP, you concede you should pay something and be tested every year to make sure you are safe?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:15 AM

When exactly did you cyclists start paying £190 annually for a road fund licence?

I reckon they will as soon as they take up as much space as a car, cause as much polution as a car, damage the roads as much as a car and kill as many people as cars do. Fair enough?

How come you pay £190 btw - what the hell are you driving? Why not get a nice sensible economical car and pay £110 like me?:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:10 AM

I mean have not seen these cars with bycle racks on the backs of their cars or roof racks.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 24 May 07 - 03:50 AM

what about concil tax, that helps to keep the you people on the roads, and Income tax and other forms of taxes, and most cylcists are motorists themselves, so we do pay £190 a year

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:06 PM

Guitar, that's nice to know, if true. When exactly did you cyclists start paying £190 annually for a road fund licence?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:13 PM

Young women talking on cell phones.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:51 PM

Young drivers think that they are good drivers, to me there are two very bad drivers on the road MEN AND WOMEN

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:50 PM

Oh and by the way I ride a bike as well, and we pay taxes the same as you

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: guitar
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:47 PM

I remember my father reading a letter that someone had wrote and they didn't like old people either, and his letter sounded all right until he finished with 25% of road Accidents are caused by old people aged 25 and older which mean 75% of road accidents are caused by young people Aged 25 and younger, Somehow I think his argument was flawed don't you

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 07 - 11:43 AM

"Ouch ! Backwoodman feeling age threatened !"

Not at all. Just dislike pricks. Especially ones who can't spell.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:54 AM

Well, it wouldn't have been intended as "a serious attempt at addressing the subject" any more than any of the other "reality" shows are. They don't set out to be documentaries, they are a cheap way of making entertainment programmes to hold audiences.

It would be interesting to see a serious study into these kind of questions, which would try to disentangle statistical affects that might be related to the different way people use their cars (I suspect a higher proportion of the journeys made by older people are for short distances), and to the fact that older people are likely to be more vulnerable than younger people in an identical accident.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:43 AM

The program did say, worryingly, that mile for mile drivers over 70 had more accidents than anyone and the accidents were more likely to be serious. A guy on there also said, very sensibly, that age should be no bar from driving. Better to measure ability. It is wrong that the over 70's should have to take a test after an accident and those under that age can carry on regardless. If it was up to me anyone causing an accident or having a motoring conviction against them should automaticaly be re-tested.

I don't think the program should be cause for much serious debate though. How can introducing a feminist comedian as presenter represent a serious attempt at addressing the subject?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:35 AM

Ouch ! Backwoodman feeling age threatened !

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:18 AM

Don't react Don, he's a prick.
Second thoughts, hes not that useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 07 - 06:13 PM

Guest Roger,

If you are going to cite evidence to support your campaign, it might be as well to choose a scientific study, rather than a biased report cobbled together by someone as agist as yourself.

This program carefully selected a bunch of incompetent elderly drivers, and devoted three quarters of the time to showing how incompetent they were. The two competent elderly drivers used to present a fraudulent semblance of balance received about 5 of the 60 minutes.

Nobody is denying that there are bad older drivers out there. There are also bad middle aged, and bad younger drivers, but no one is singling the young or the middle aged out for special measures.

Logical examination would lead to the conclusion that you should be campaigning against BAD drivers, no matter what their age.

For you, it would be good if all drivers over 65 were removed from the roads so that you youngsters could kill one another unhampered by traffic. Of course, the downside is that you would then have nobody to blame but yourselves.

Don T.
66 years old and currently a professional driver. And yes, I took a driving test just five months ago, which confirmed that there is good reason for my forty five years of driving without a serious accident or conviction.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:42 PM

How old is 'older'? Yer talking to a huge bunch of 'older' people here.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 22 May 07 - 04:18 PM

Anyone watch the programme on ITV tonight about older drivers. They are lethal ! Accidents waiting to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 05:49 AM

Good Link Ragdall. Many of the trends in those figures weren't surprising, but the whole lot together is sobering....

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:59 PM

I hear that, Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:57 PM

Yeah, I know it........But the guy is still turning some fast laps in some pretty potent machinery! BTW, I was watching that race where the pit fire occured and he was pretty spry in exting the cockpit!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:53 PM

Cheap shot. He doesn't have intersections to deal with!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:52 PM

The case FOR older drivers.........

(;<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:44 PM

Incidentally, I am not impervious to the frustration and anger the OP must feel. I lost many friends over the years who were t-boned or hit head-on. However, as Don W pointed out so eruditely, generalizations based on a few instances can lead to erroneous conclusions and assumptions. Sometimes 'the other half of the story' helps explain things.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:38 PM

GOOD ONE Ragdall.

The chart sure blows the premise outta the water. I wouldn't think it's substantially different in other pleces. Neat-o.

Hey, ORIGINAL POSTER: Yer WRONG!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: ragdall
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:35 PM

This study has some information about "at-fault" Florida drivers in fatal accidents, by age, in 2000. There is a bar chart on page 7 of 22.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:13 PM

BTW: I do not think for a minute that the GUEST posting as DougR really IS DougR. If someone checked the post origins of both GUEST Bruce O and GUEST DougR, someone would probably find they are one and the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:13 PM

Peace - I think Doug was replying to the originator of the thread, also called Bruce! (At least, I hope he was)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:08 PM

On second though: FUCK YOU!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:07 PM

What the hell are you talking about? I have made no such suggestion. Read the bloody thread you jackass.