BS: Older Drivers are Killers

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 08:55 PM

Yep, Bruce, all old people should be put to death. Question is, how old, and who makes the decision? Hopefully not you Bruce. I'm sure you probably have not taken consideration that someday you too will be old. Want somebody to make the fateful decision about whether you live or die when you reach...say...70?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 07:39 PM

Good sites, Ragdall.

However, the stat that would be of great interest to me would be the one about who caused the accident. I would think that insurance companies keep those cards quite close to their collective chest. Wouldn't do to have rates change too quickly. It would likely upset the stock market.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: ragdall
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 07:32 PM

I found some very old charts:
Drivers Killed in Crashes, by Age and Driver’s Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC)

This is from Central Mutual Insurance Company Accidents by Age of Drivers

Transport Canada 1984-2003 Collision Statistics (Page 6 of 7)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM

That's what I gathered after looking yesterday for about 20 minutes. The stats are around, but they seem not to be viewable by the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 06:15 PM

I don't know the sites and I wonder if they would release the info as that is what they base their premiums on and, as such, they would probably not want to give it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 06:12 PM

I could find very little on the www, Jacqui. If the info's out there, it's hard to find (by me, anyway). I love to see the ststs if you know of a few sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 05:31 PM

I would guess that insurance companies could provide those stats - they use them to work out premiums, which are partially based on age. The company I worked for had a special over 60s policy and targeted the age group - the stats suggested that, when that group had accidents, they cost less than other age groups. My company wouldn't touch drivers under 25.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 04:47 PM

"Younger drivers are the biggest killers on the roads by a huge margin."

I would guess that's true, mostly because younger drivers are faster drivers, and the spped of impact sure does have an affect on the severity of the crash. Older folks are likely to drive a bit slower.

There also should be a differentiation made between the types of accidents. By far, I see more young and middle-aged people in car rollovers and bad MVCs than I do older people. Another thing to consider is this: older people do not fare well in accidents. This is because of various things associated with aging: bone density being lsee and the bones breaking more easily; other existing conditions exacerbated by the injuries sustained in the MVC.

I know many 'old' people who are excellent drivers. I know some young ones who aren't. I do think that when people are no longer reliable behind the wheel, they SHOULD be taken off the road. That goes for those who drink, people who have lots of accidents that they cause, etc. There is nothing wrong with asking people to verify their competency to drive--and if night driving is a hazard, then they should be restricted to daylight hours. Most of this stuff is a no-brainer.

The hellish difficulty, IMO, is finding reliable statistics that differentiate accident rates amongst age groups. Until people can look at those stats, it's all just matter of opinion and "I know someone who . . .". Not really helpful stuff to do with the premise of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 04:36 PM

It is entirely reasonable to pay extra attention to older people, where medical concerns as to driving ability are concerned, as most relevent conditions will either be life-long, so they will never start driving, or are far more common amongst older people.


The question is really how to regulate those who do not govern themselves, regardless of if that is in driving drunk, dangerously fast, whilst attempting to read a map and directions, or whilst suffering from some medical impediment. The enforcement of traffic laws is strongly biased to wards some of these dangerous behaiviours, and away from others.

It's not old and young, or any other arbitary decision. It's simply responsible or irresponsible, and we should act against the irresponsible, wether they refuse to concede their eyesight is no longer good enough for driving, or that speed limits are not a minimum target....

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM

Green Man is right.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Green Man
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 10:50 AM

If old drivers are the cause of accidents why do the 'young' drivers pay the higher premiums.

I sympathise with your loss but must say you have it wrong. Younger drivers are the biggest killers on the roads by a huge margin.

GM

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bert
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 02:27 AM

OOOEEEE. Sorry Kendall, but I can't resist this one - you laid yourself wide open.

You say "I'll match my driving skills with anyone half my age."

but anyone half your age is already OLD. *HEE HEE*

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 01:43 AM

I'm going to defend older drivers.

My mom is 80ish and still drives in the daytime (country roads) but not at night because her night vision is very bad.

The point is this. She knows her limits all too well. On occasion, she wishes she could drive at night but she doesn't want to kill or injure herself or anyone else. She asks other to drive her at night. She is quite capable of deciding what she is and isn't able to do anymore.

As far as I know, she has never had an accident or been given a ticket. She has been driving for at least 60 years. Why do people automatically assume that because you are old, you can no longer govern your own behaviour? Most of the elderly that I know are very sharp and would resent others limiting their activities.

Stereotypes are destructive. Please show a little respect. You, too, will be old one day.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 04:10 AM

Here in Edinburgh, there are moves afoot to remove alot of the road signs from the city centre at least, not beacuse there are too many and they're hard to read, which they are, but because it helps the streets look more Georgian, in line with the World Heritage site status....

Kendell, I was trying to state the general case without going into numbers, as, as that link shows, doing so is probably a thesis at least. But if you want to be picky:

Elderly: Is 70 an unreasonable age to use here? By defining any particular age as elderly, there will be some people above that age who are fit and well, and in better shape than those half their age, and also those below that age who are suffering whom you would assume are decades older than they are, again in terms of their generall fitness.

Significant: Well, even one driver on the road has very slow reaction times, memory lapses or impared vision, that is significant for them, and anybody around them.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:33 AM

Peace, that is indeed an interesting study. I've never had a great sense of direction (but I can read a map....) and the amount of road signage these days is appalling... not least for the fact that as a pedestrian, my pavement (sidewalk) is being cluttered up by road signs and poles.

I live about 60ft from a fairly busy junction (2 schools and a major rat run). The powers that be decided to slow traffic by putting a mini roundabout at this junction. They put the sign warning people of this new roundabout 30ft from the junction, behind a tree. You could only see the sign when you were level with the tree, by which time, it was too late to stop. Incidentally, the police, the ambulance service and everyone who lives around that junction all say that the rate of accidents has increased since it was put in.

So often street signs are obscured by traffic signs, and in many cases, especially London, traffic signs are obscured by other traffic signs.

Add this to the maniac population we have here (people who dress entirely in black then jump out from between parked cars at night - I swear all we saw of one guy was his eyes and teeth as he turned to swear at us...) who have the road sense of your average possum, and it makes for some very fraught journeys whatever age you are.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:50 PM

Interesting study here.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:34 PM

Define elderly, and explain how you reached that conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:21 PM

"Older Drivers are Killers"

Listen: ya don't like how I drive then stay off the fookin' sidewalks.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:19 PM

I think the initial point was that a significant number of eldery drivers are no longer capable of driving safely due to age related factors.

There are also undoubtly a large number of young drivers who are excessivly dangerous due to inexperience, and many, many people of all ages who drive badly and dangerously for various stupid reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 04:54 PM

I'll match my driving skills with anyone half my age.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 03:25 PM

The title of this thread is both ageist and inaccurate. I know a fair number of older people who are very good drivers—much safer that a lot of younger drivers.

My father was an excellent driver right up into his early eighties. When he was young, he spent ten years as a chauffeur for a wealthy family (which, as well as driving, included doing mechanical work on the Packard limo). He knew how to drive safely and smoothly, and maintained those abilities until his health began to fail, at which time he said, "I don't think I should drive anymore," and that was it.

Right now, I'm 75. A couple of years ago, I was driving in a residential area, and suddenly a kid on a bicycle—a boy about ten or eleven years old—darted out between two parked cars right in front of me. Had it not been for a) a lot of experience as a driver, and, b) quick reflexes despite being what some regard as an "older driver," I could very easily have strained the kid through the grill of my Toyota Corolla. It scared him so bad he fell of his bicycle. As he reassembled himself, he was about nine shades of pale slightly tinted with green. I just stared at him, and he looked back, very guiltily, then mounted his bike and pedaled off. I don't think he'll pull that trick again.

Barring professional race drivers, I'll match my reflexes against any driver out there. At least you don't find all that many older drivers working on a laptop computer on the passenger's seat, talking on a cell phone, and eating an Egg McMuffin while zipping down the freeway and weaving in and out of traffic at seventy miles per hour.

If you compare accident statistics between older drivers and drivers under twenty-five, you might be in for a surprise. The younger drivers may, in general, have faster reflexes, but many older drivers have sufficient experience to anticipate and avoid dangerous situations in the first place.

Don Firth.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 09:47 PM

Generalisations cannot, and should not, be allowed to dictate policy.

Here in the UK, we have a driver's licence that remains in force from the date of passing the two part test, until the 70th birthday.

Thereafter, a medical is required, every three years, to renew the licence.

Professional drivers are even more rigorously controlled, but there have been Bus drivers still qualified in their late 80s, and I believe I am correct in saying that the oldest London Hackney (taxi)driver was in his nineties (and still able to satisfy physical and memory requirements).

Contrast that with the number of young drivers who can't remember that speed limits are maximums, and apply to all road users, or think that parked cars have been left for their use, provided they can get the doors open and jump start the ignition.

See, us oldies can generalise with the best.

The point is, as has been said above, IT ISN'T HOW OLD YOU ARE, IT'S HOW BADLY YOU DRIVE.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 01:12 PM

Sad event in County Fermanagh here last weekend. Four young people killed in the one car. Looks like speed was the cause, no other car involved. The funeral of a 16 year old girl killed in it took place yesterday. Another funeral of the other teenage girl was to take place this afternoon. When you think what hell the families have been through and it could not get any worse, today it did.

The funeral today was cancelled because yesterday they buried the wrong body. This morning they dug up the one buried yesterday and cancelled today's funeral.It was claimed today that the problem was with the D.N.A. tests. I am sorry this story is so horrible, but it highlights both the danger of speed, and it's mostly among young drivers, not older ones, and also how we depend on D.N.A. nowadays.

I think all our hearts go out to these families.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 07:24 AM

You folks in the UK seem to lack someone to bitch at. Here, if we have a problem, there is always an elected official to go at, and they respond because they want to get re elected. Sad, but it works.

Ref Steven King, walking on the wrong side of the road means you are walking WITH traffic, and therefore, unable to see what's coming up behind you.
Of course it doesn't absolve the driver of responsibility; However, if you are walking on the wrong side wearing dark clothes at night you are asking for trouble. I see it all the time, young people with their "I'm bullet proof" attitude. Children on bicycles are really bad about this. Here, a bicycle is considered a vehicle and it belongs on the right with traffic. I swear, parents don't know or care where their kids ride.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: HuwG
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 04:49 AM

An update on my post above.

My car was officially written off, as the estimated cost of repairs (over £1000) was more than the value of the car (£500). Well, a bit of shopping around and calling in a few favours got the car fixed for £600. Less write off value, provided by other driver's insurers, net £100 cost to me. It was worth doing, as the car was in excellent mechanical condition.

After almost a fortnight of dry but very cold weather, it started snowing last Friday (03/03/06). I hastily moved my car off the steep hill and parked it in Tesco's car park, as the street once again became a piste. I was woken up on Saturday morning by the sounds of spinning tyres and crunching metal. A van had just piled into a car nearly outside my house; pushing it downhill into another car; and another still. That's four vehicles with crunched bumpers (fenders), radiators, lights, wings etc. The second car down had the worst damage, as it was shovelled into the rear of one with a prominent towing hook fitted.

I have once again told the local authority we need a gritting bin. I have added a threat that in the event of future damage to my car as a result of similar accidents, they will face legal action for negligence. (Have I a case, or even a leg to stand on ? I have no idea, but I feel a lot better for blowing off steam).

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 06:53 PM

Roundabouts can work very well, if there's not too much traffic around. The fact that you have to take account of other people, and not just follow the green light, when sing a roundabout can in fact encourage courtesy towards other road users, which is the most important driving quality of all.

But once the traffic builds up, the balance swings the other way. Harlow is a town with roundabouts on just about every junction, and they've been forced to put traffic lights on quite a few of them now, and thank God for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Col K
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 06:15 PM

100 up and from an older driver

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 06:07 PM

Roundabouts, back in the days when nobody had right of way, used to work rather well. The principle of "Let one go, then go yourself" was largely adhered to by drivers.

Then, in the late 50s and early sixties, a new phenomenon appeared. The young driver in his Mini Cooper, or VW Golf, who believed he had a God given right to be first, threw away the book and made up his own rules.

As a result the current system of "Give way to traffic from your right" came in, and guess what. The same drivers now ignore that rule.

Same old same old.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 01:00 PM

I suspect that roundabouts on English roads may encourage people to develop a kind of dodgem mentality. You know - you wait till it's clear and you're waiting for ever, and the cars behind start honking, and the pressure is to edge forward and rely on someone letting yoim in tom avoid a collision...

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 01:24 AM

Of course Bill. Silly me.
I do have to say that while driving in America on holiday - and we've done it a few times now, that the behavior of drivers there is much, much better than at home in Aus. I don't know if it's to do with the harsh penalties or what but the difference is marked. I had to stop myself saying all the time, "Look at that! He just let us in!!!" and "No one is tailgaiting us!!" "Look! that truck's allowing us past!!"
AND we drove through LA and several other big cities (Fort Worth at peak-hour by accident included.)
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: HuwG
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 10:15 PM

*All* drivers are potential killers. From the pensioner shaking with Parkinson's Disease, who last had an eye test in 1976 and whose lens prescription was hopelessly inadequate (a recent case which appeared in the local paper), to the juvenile imbecile who nearly ran me down in Tesco's car park while gabbling on his mobile phone.

It is unfortunately a part of anyone's character to blame the other driver for the crunch. Even the police advice is "make no admission of responsibility". The attitude has gone so far as to make some mothers deliberately purchase heavy SUV's for the school run, on the grounds that should there be a collision, the other car is more likely to be damaged and its occupants more likely to be injured than her own precious offspring. This apparently selfish attitude is justified by the assertion that the other drivers on the road are more likely to cause the accident.

Incidentally, my own car was written off on November 21st last year. It was parked on the road outside my house. I live on a steep hill; the gradient, restricted visibility and propensity of the road to ice up have led the County Council to declare the road "Access Only". However, this does not stop many drivers using the street as a "rat run" to get round congestion on the main road. One learner driver losing control going downhill and making the fatal mistake of hitting the brakes.

I have to forgive the unfortunate L-Driver. I did tell her husband, "Lucky my car was there, or you'd have gone into the builders' skip". I wasn't joking. Cars absorb a lot of energy as the mutually annihilate each other, a builders skip is an unyielding solid object.

The fault lies at least partly with the County Council, who for ten years have failed to provide a gritting bin at the top of the road, and who have ignored the greatly increased volume of traffic in the immediate area (a garden centre, a pub/restaurant and a drive-through junk food outlet have all opened within the last three months). Furious letters from me to the Council have yet to be answered.

My car, which was a lovingly cared-for L-Reg (manufactured 1993), was worth £500 as a write-off. Mechanical condition is not considered when valuing cars for insurance purposes, only the age and original value. The lesson for motorists is clear. Buy unnecessarily large and expensive vehicles. Deny responsibility. And if you do run into somebody, just have a laugh at the thought that the compensation they receive will be pitiful if they are poorer than you.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Naemanson
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 09:39 PM

I remember the deer hunting accident too. Happened in or near Bangor didn't it? What a shame. The wierd part is that nobody said, "Why don't we increase the training requirements for hunters?" And the hunters in the state, at least the vocal ones, seemed to line up with the idiot who killed the woman.

Many years ago, long before the requirement to wear international orange while hunting, my father spent a week in Washington County, Maine, deer hunting with a friend who wore white pants in the woods. No accidents and the guy was not shot. Either that says something for the other hunters or he was lucky enough not to be seen. I have seen photos and a home movie of that trip and sure enough the guy is wearing white.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 01:31 PM

Indications were that King was walking on the wrong side of the road.

So he couldn't jump out of the way of an oncoming car? My analogy about rape and the victim's clothing applies here too. In both cases the fact that the victim might have been doing something a bit stupid doesn't take the blame off the perpetrator.

A driver has a duty to watch out for people on the road, whichever way they are looking, and to avoid running them down.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 11:58 AM

Peter, you are right. That was so shameful. Too many deer hunters on the jury.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 11:25 AM

GUEST,Royston Robbie - "Take them them off at 65, just like the workplace."

A story for you, it doesn't concern driving but flying. Lord Brabazon was the first person to be given a Pilots Licence in the UK, Licence No.2 went to an Army Major. The rules at the time followed what you prescribe, the licence had to be relinguished on achieving the age of 65. As this major's 65th birthday approached he tried in vain to keep his licence, he was fully fit and capable, but red tape prevailed. The day before his 65th birthday he went down to the airfield, took off in his Auster and then proceeded to fly under bridges on the river Thames. He was arrested on landing, his only comment was that he had always wanted to do it and that if he was going to lose his licence he might as well lose it for a valid reason, not purely because some civil servant decided so.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 11:01 AM

Old people who insist on driving past the age of 50 should be re-tested every few years, or shot on sight.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Midchuck
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 10:43 AM

McGrath said: A driver who blames a slow driver for making them do something crazy, such as overtaking in a dangerous way, is a bit like a rapist who says it's all the fault of the way the girl was dressed.

Or the case in Maine I read about where a deer hunter blew away a housewife who was outside her house hanging up laundry, and the hunter was acquitted of manslaughter on the basis that the victim was wearing white gloves, and so brought it on herself because everyone knows that deer hunters will shoot at any flash of white, and if you wear white outside in deer season, it's your own fault if you get shot...

I swear I am not making this up. At least, that's the way I read it.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: jonm
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 08:48 AM

To all those who, like myself, have lost people they cared about through the carelessness and incompetence of others, you have my deepest sympathy and best wishes for a hopeful future.

All accidents are caused by mistakes.

Both the very young and the very old, in driving terms, can make the mistake of overestimating their abilities relative to the conditions. Retesting and retraining seem to be viable options where you have exceeded your own personal limits.

Some people make the mistake of underestimating the effect other distractions (phones, cigarettes, alcohol etc.) can have on their ability to drive safely. As above or punishment through a ban where an offence has been committed.

Where a mistake has been made, someone must undergo some form of inconvenience from which they emerge a better driver, otherwise it will always be an accident which happens to someone else until it's too late. Not Draconian punishment, just re-education. Wouldn't it be better if those who were unfit to drive made the decision for themselves? Perhaps as a result of a spell in a simulator?

Drink-driving advertising campaigns always target the "you just caused a horrific accident" viewpoint. I would recommend the "I was stopped for a lightbulb, tested and lost my licence and my job as a result" as a better deterrent for the hardened drink-driver.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: JennieG
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 12:58 AM

My husband maintains that many drivers (not pointing the finger at anyone here!) can't read the number on the speed sign properly. They think it's a game where you double it and add ten.

Cheers
JennieG who was caught by a fixed speed camera last year.....bummer! Remind me to tell you the story sometime.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 08:10 PM

The other important thing to recognise is that _all_ speed limits are optional and only apply to someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 09:28 PM

oh, Joybelle!!...about that problem of being overtaken while driving at the posted speed....you mean you really didn't know that the number on the sign is the MINIMUM? All the other drivers seem to know it...even here in the USA!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 08:58 PM

Indications were that King was walking on the wrong side of the road.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 07:30 PM

This thread is singularly lacking in statistics/facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 07:29 PM

But it was an old dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Naemanson
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 07:27 PM

I think we all know of an accident caused by an older driver. However we also know of those caused by younger drivers. It is a tragedy but it is fact. CARS are dangerous! It takes attention to detail to operate dangerous machinery. Those who loose that attention will have accidents. Loss of attention can be caused by age or by "knowing" that you can control the machine by operating it in your own fashion. Thus some people drive dangerously because they believe they are superb drivers. Accidents are caused by a number of elements. You can be the world's best driver and one second of distraction will kill you or somebody else. Stephen King was seriously injured by a guy who was focused on his dog instead of on the road. It was a young guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Kaleea
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 06:54 PM

It would be illuminating to see actual statistics on the agges of drivers who are found to cause accidents. I have noticed that the age group which seems most costly to insure is the teen aged to early 20's male. However, it was an old man in an old pickup who broadsided & thus killed my little brother 20some years back.

Subject: So are younger drivers.
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 05:43 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 04:33 PM

A driver who blames a slow driver for making them do something crazy, such as overtaking in a dangerous way, is a bit like a rapist who says it's all the fault of the way the girl was dressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: kendall
Date: 01 Jan 06 - 04:17 PM

Too many men get the idea that their car is an extension of their dick. Road rage is caused by testosterone poisoning; a condition that over rides common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 05 - 09:48 PM

Oh I'm a cyclist in Scotland and I think that there are two types of people that are bad drivers, men and women espialally men.