BS: Zionist Negotiation ?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:56 PM

"Peace will come with the Palestinians after enough of them have been killed so that the remainder of them embrace peace over terrorism.   To quote Glodie "they must love their childrem more than they hate Israel".   
We need to change the hearts of the Palestinians.   From beating to non beating."


Holocaust Part Two:- "Payback"............Yeah! That's the way to win hearts and minds.........NOT!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 11:58 AM

The End Of A Pointed Gun By Grit Laskin

I've laboured through two world wars
An old war that still fights on
I'll dare any man says I've not worked
This land that I stand upon
A homeland both free and strong
To harbour my only son
I hoped he'd never see as I
The end of a pointed gun

My nation and my son, my nation and my son
One found its birth, one found his death
At the end of a pointed gun

Oh praised be Olympiad
Was echoed the whole world round
Nation to nation unified
On one chosen stretch of ground
Oh proud were the boys as mine
To play for their own country
I wish to God he'd never gone
But stayed with his family

My nation and my son, my nation and my son
One found its birth, one found his death
At the end of a pointed gun

The games scarcely had begun
When out of each winner's joy
Bloodshed rose unexpectedly
Eleven dead and one my boy
How does a father mourn
His murdered hopes and dreams?
How on this earth can he escape
The agonies he has seen?

My nation and my son, my nation and my son
One found its birth, one found his death
At the end of a pointed gun

I've laboured through two world wars
An old war that still fights on
I'll dare any man says I've not worked
This land my boy rests upon

My nation and my son, my nation and my son
One found its birth, one found his death
At the end of a pointed gun

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 11:56 AM

Neighborhood Bully by Bob Dylan

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man,
His enemies say he's on their land.
They got him outnumbered about a million to one,
He got no place to escape to, no place to run.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully just lives to survive,
He's criticized and condemned for being alive.
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin,
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land,
He's wandered the earth an exiled man.
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn,
He's always on trial for just being born.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized,
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad.
The bombs were meant for him.
He was supposed to feel bad.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him,
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac.
He's the neighborhood bully.

He got no allies to really speak of.
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love.
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace,
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease.
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly.
To hurt one they would weep.
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone,
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon.
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand,
In bed with nobody, under no one's command.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon,
No contract he signed was worth what it was written on.
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth,
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What's anybody indebted to him for?
Nothin', they say.
He just likes to cause war.
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed,
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers?
Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill,
Running out the clock, time standing still,
Neighborhood bully.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 12:02 PM

Y cant people be nice?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,American observer
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:46 AM

According to Wolfgang, "European observers say that roughly 70% of the Palestinians would agree with a two state solution."

But that's not what the Palestinians voted for.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:32 AM

Wolfgang,

All I'm saying is that as the now-democratically-elected government of the Palestinians, it is Hamas, not CarolC, who have the legitimacy to speak on behalf of the "Palestinian perspective."

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:30 AM

Wolfgang,
If your nexdoor neighbour would threaten you with death, and extinction and is serious about it, are you about to talk friendly with him - no you would go immediately to the police to report him.
Would the Jews have been able to negotiate with the Nazis - (are you a Nazi?) I think Jews have become a bit wary of this kind of senerio in their history- don't you think? Israelis will give Hamas recognition, as they were willing to do with the PLO when they changed their charter but only when Hamas will signal some peaceful intentions. Get used to that reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:17 AM

Begin the Beguine,

luckily it is only one Palestinian perspective. I have said it in another thread: The majority of the Hamas voters has voted for them out of anger about a corrupt government and for what they perceive them do have done on a local level of administration and not because they share that particular demand in the charter. European observers say that roughly 70% of the Palestinians would agree with a two state solution.

I can understand if Israel is wary, I would be too in their place. But any movement coming from a terrorist background and being elected into government needs some time to adjust. Demands that the Hamas should immediately change are counterproductive. Let's wait and see. Give them a chance and you might even give peace a chance. Perhaps I'm too optimistic but we'll see.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:56 AM

The most just and fair arrangement from the Palestinian perspective would be to have the land Israel took from them that was outside the area that was given to Israel by the UN, given back to them. However, that would cause quite a lot of problems for the Israelis who live in those areas. So the 1967 borders are a difficult, but just barely (for the Palestinians) workable compromise.

CarolC,

You totally misrepresent the "Palestinian perspective" to further your own agenda. Despite your devotion to what you see as the Palestinian cause, YOU do not represent the Palestinian people. No more than Martin Gibson represents the Israeli perspective.

The Palestinians have just voted in an election and elected a government whose platform calls for an Islamic state on every inch of Israel. That, CarolC, is the "Palestinian perspective."

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:52 AM

I hate sense altering typos: 'sued' should be read 'used'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:29 AM

We need to change the hearts of the Palestinians.   From beating to non beating.

I usually don't comment the language sued by Mudcat right wingers. I take it as granted that most here disagree with their arguments. But that's much worse than what I usually read:

'Only a dead Palestinian is a good Palestinian.' Incitement to and praise of genocide it is. That's a fundamentally different idea from the original Zionism.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:14 AM

Nice one, Larry K - First you take their homes, then you take their lives.
Nice to see the tenets of modern Zionism spelled out so succinctly. And so reasonably too; a neat advocacy of a final solution, I feel.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Larry k
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:06 AM

Peace comes through total victory of the other side.   Let me repeat.    Peace comes after total victory over the other side.

Peace didn't come with Hitler from negotiations.    The death of millions of people came through negotiations.   Peace came after total victory over the other side.   Today we are at peace with Germany.

Slavery didn't end through negotiations.   Negotiations brought us a contitution and bill of rights, but not an end to slavery.   Slavery ended through total victory over the south.   "unconditional surrender" I think was the term.   Today, everyone in the USA (except for isolated morons) opposes slavery.

Peace will come with the Palestinians after enough of them have been killed so that the remainder of them embrace peace over terrorism.   To quote Glodie "they must love their childrem more than they hate Israel".   

We need to change the hearts of the Palestinians.   From beating to non beating.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,New guest
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:01 AM

Carole says The goal of Israeli terrorism has always been the following: "1.) to terrorise local Arab populations for the purpose of getting them to vacate their homes and villages, 2.) to convnice the British to leave Palestine, 3.) to incite hatred of and violence toward Arabs generally and Palestinians specifically, 4.) to manipulate Western governments to give military and other financial aid to Israel, and to manipulate Western governments into helping Israel wage war against whomever Israel wanted to wage war against, and 5.) to cause instability in other countries for the purpose of causing them to break up into warring factions."

First of all the use of the words "Israeli terrorism" is a typical anti- Israeli proaganda ploy ,and most intelligent people sense that right away. All of her assertions are typical proaganda statements except for perhaps #2.
The motives for Israeli retaliation for Palestinian suicide attacks, although horiific they may be, doesn't come close to compare with the motives of these murderous militants who are no different than those that attacked The World Trade Centre.

Israelis live with the Arab population in their country and many Arabs are quite happy being citizens of Israel and working and living and practicing their religion amongst the Jewish population.

Democracy has finally come to Palestine, and now they have elected those who are directly responsible for many murderous acts. They do not recognize ANY part of Israel, and want nothing more than the removal of Israel and all the Jews living there, and to establish a strict Islamic state - THIS IS FACT, NOT PROPAGANDA. No negotiation will be possible unless they change this, and it appears they won't. Is this how the Palestinians think they will be accepted amongst the other nations in the civilised world?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:32 PM

since the christian religion evolved from judaism, shouldn't it then follow that the area called 'israel' is also the 'homeland' of christians?

taking this apparent 'right of occupation' further, other theologies developed from christian belief could also have claims in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:20 PM

It's a compromise, Wolfgang. The most just and fair arrangement from the Palestinian perspective would be to have the land Israel took from them that was outside the area that was given to Israel by the UN, given back to them. However, that would cause quite a lot of problems for the Israelis who live in those areas. So the 1967 borders are a difficult, but just barely (for the Palestinians) workable compromise.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:42 AM

I'm curious, Carol. Why the before 1967 borders and not for instance the 1948 borders or the pre-1948 borders? What makes a border originating from a war acceptable to you?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:08 AM

Thats right. If majority rules, Israel is in big trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 01:13 AM

An apartheid state cannot claim to be a democracy. As long as Israel claims the West Bank and East Jerusalem (or as they call the area, Judea and Samaria) as a part of Israel, it is an apartheid state, and therefore not a democracy.

That's the dilemma they face. They're like the monkey with its hand stuck in the trap because it won't let go of the nut. They can't be a democracy until they let go of the occupied areas, or extend the same rights to the people in those areas that are enjoyed by the Jews in Israel proper (not all of which, by the way, are enjoyed by the people in Israel who are not Jewish).

But if they give the people in the occupied areas the same rights (right of citizenship, for instance) as in Israel proper, then they face the probability that Jews eventually will not be the majority in Israel.

It really isn't possible to hold someone else down without holding yourself down at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:15 PM

I have seen that written so many time the wrong way that now I don't know whether it is right or not: "Shane is on the loose tonight." or should it be "Shane is on the lose tonight."?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:13 PM

No problem. ;-) Shane is on the loose tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:09 PM

Good artile here from BBC regarding Democracies in the Middle East.

Also, Little Hawk. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:53 PM

Holy flip. Gettin' touchy, aren't we? Awrighttt...I figger...ya got, like, one in Isreal, eh? I think so. Then...ya got one in Eye-Raq. Cos Bush says he is bringin' democracy to Eye-Raq, and he would not lie, eh? Then...ya got one in Eye-Ran cos they just re-elected that there guy that...no, wait...they did not RE-elect him cos he was mahor of the capital city before so...okay they EEE-lected him. Ya got an election, ya got a demorcacy, that's what they tell me. Then ya got Turkey. I think they had elections there too, eh? holy flip. that makes...5! Then ya got the Pastelininas and they elected Hummus. that makes 6. Geez. It's breakin' out all over the flippin' place. They got more democracy there than we do here.

Them other places like Syria and Myangmar and the Vatican, though...and North Korea...are not democracyhs so I expect Bush will invade 'em soon and save those poor peo[ple from thesmeslevs before it's, like, too late.

- Shane

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:51 PM

Why do bagels have holes?

I'll let Martin answer that for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:45 PM

Guest, Bush has declared already that a democracy can make a mistake. There's did for sure.

Guest, I am sure it is also Bush's fault that you are constipated.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:38 PM

BTW, Shatner is NOT a very good actor. That's another matter of opinion. One held by most sane people on the planet.

Serious now: How many democracies in the Middle East?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:37 PM

"That's strictly a matter of opinion."

So gimme a friggin' opinion and don't answer a question with a question!

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:35 PM

That's strictly a matter of opinion.

How many are there in North America?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:31 PM

How many democracies are there in the Middle East?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 09:23 PM

I find it curious that although Hamas was democratically elected, the Bush administration does not recognize their right to govern.

That leaves me to believe that Bush only believes in democracy when 'his people' when an election.

Actually, this proves that Bush is not at all interested in democracy in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:55 PM

I condemn ALL terrorist acts, and all killings of civilians, including those committed against Israelis, Guest,Begin the Beguine, and have done so many times.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:50 PM

Let it not be forgotten that the goal of Palestinian terrorism is specifically to provoke over the top responses from Israel that will result in greater losses to the Palestinians. The leaders of Hamas and other terrorist groups know that greater losses of Palestinian life will be the consequence of their actions. They don't care. To them, their own people are worth more as dead "martyrs" than they are alive. They are evil.

Yes, that is the goal of Hamas. And I think "evil" is not too strong a word for people who would do such things.

The goal of Israeli terrorism has always been the following: 1.) to terrorise local Arab populations for the purpose of getting them to vacate their homes and villages, 2.) to convnice the British to leave Palestine, 3.) to incite hatred of and violence toward Arabs generally and Palestinians specifically, 4.) to manipulate Western governments to give military and other financial aid to Israel, and to manipulate Western governments into helping Israel wage war against whomever Israel wanted to wage war against, and 5.) to cause instability in other countries for the purpose of causing them to break up into warring factions.

The fact is that many tens of thousands of innocent civilians, women, children, old and young men, have died because of these agendas and these acts. We do not help any innocent non-combatants by glossing over them or sweeping them under the carpet. These campaigns against the people Israel would like to conquer and/or subjugate are ongoing, and we should be drawing attention to them, not covering them up. And if what Hamas is doing is "evil", then so is what is being done by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:39 PM

CarolC,

You are the one who has made a Mudcat career out of one-sided condemnations of the actions in the Middle East.

Again, my pointing out the difference in a specific attack on a British military target from the type of attack specificially aimed at children and other civilians should not be taken as any kind of support for such an action.

I hereby condemn all terrorist attacks.

CarolC, what do you say about the murderers of Shmuel Zargari? Shmuel was only 11 months old when he died in his mother's arms as they rode the No. 2 bus in Jerusalem when a Palestinian suicide bomber killed him and 21 others on August 19, 2003.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:38 PM

No, the intended victims were the Egyptians. The Lavon Affair was specifically for the purpose of poisoning relations between Egypt and the West, which means that ALL Egyptians, women, children, old men, etc. were the intended victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:36 PM

Some more background information about the Lavon Affair, along with quite a bit of other pertinent information, from Livia Rockach (Moshe Sharett's daughter), and from Moshe Sharett's personal diary...

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/rokach.html#CHAPTER%207%20The%20Lavon%20Affair:%20Terrorism%20to%20Coerce%20the%20West

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/rokach.html#APPENDIX%204%20%20The%20Lavon%20Affair

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:26 PM

Nevertheless, it is an example of Israeli terrorism. There is a long list of terrorism committed by the Irgun and and other Israelis and Jews in the Middle East. And they didn't care who they killed... women, children... it didn't matter to them.

If we are going to condemn terrorism, let's condemn ALL terrorism, instead of making excuses for the terrorism that is committed by those on the side you support and only condemning those acts committed by the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:23 PM

CarolC,

Again the intended "victims" in the Lavon Affair were buildings not people. However, I make no excuses for it. It was wrong (btw, I think the King David bombing was wrong too) and many heads in Israel rolled because of it.

Just for the record, CarolC, I too am against the occupation and want it ended.

My posting was a response to the ridiculous moral equivalency of the King David Hotel bombing with Hamas' homicidal suicide bombings aimed at civilians.

Let it not be forgotten that the goal of Palestinian terrorism is specifically to provoke over the top responses from Israel that will result in greater losses to the Palestinians. The leaders of Hamas and other terrorist groups know that greater losses of Palestinian life will be the consequence of their actions. They don't care. To them, their own people are worth more as dead "martyrs" than they are alive. They are evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 01:19 PM

The Lavon Affair mostly involved Egyptian Jews, with incompetent leadership by Israeli agents, and is as remarkable for the viciousness of the Egyptian response as for the stupidity of the perpetrators.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:59 PM

Who among us is defending suicide bombers?

What do you intend to do...try and talk to them now or just keep trying to kill them all forever and ever? Which of those 2 goals might yield a more useful result?

If you talk to them will they talk to you? Probably. If you keep killing them, will they keep killing you? Most certainly.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:56 PM

Can't explain away the Lavon Affair (in which Israeli secret agents bombed civilian and government targets in Egypt and tried to blame it on the Egyptians), quite so easily though, can you, Guest, Begin the Beguine?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:45 PM

Look at Begin and the thugs of the Irgun - what they did to the 90 odd people in the King David Hotel was a classic act of terrorism. Or were they courageous freedom fighters?

The attack on the King David Hotel was an attack on a building being used as the British military headquarters. The Irgun gave the British ample warning of the attack so that the building could be evacuated with out injuries or loss of life. THE BRITISH CHOSE NOT TO EVACUATE THE KING DAVID HOTEL.

On the other hand, the goal of the Hamas homicidal suicide bombers is to kill as many children, senior citizens and civilian Israelis as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Gervase
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 12:14 PM

So Martin, do you always condemn terrorists? Look at Begin and the thugs of the Irgun - what they did to the 90 odd people in the King David Hotel was a classic act of terrorism. Or were they courageous freedom fighters?
Trouble is, both sides have seen some pretty murderous bastards, and neither has the monopoly on righteousness or evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 05:09 PM

Homolactoprobe? Does that mean to insert a half-pint carton of milk where the sun don't shine? Eeeeeeww!

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 05:03 PM

You said someone was going to make a verb out of it, so I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 04:50 PM

"Go homolactophobe yourself, Peace."

Gawd, is that a good thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 02:19 PM

Go homolactophobe yourself, Peace. (grin) You too, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 06 - 11:55 AM

Martin, YOU are the one who is advocating the complete destruction of a people, not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:52 PM

Nice for her, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: number 6
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:25 PM

No ... his wife who has been living in luxury in Paris (never lived with the Palestinians) has it.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:22 PM

"A secular system "allows homosexuality, allows corruption, allows the spread of the loss of natural immunity like AIDS," he said."

He'll likely find a way to make a few bucks, then.

Did "Arafat's" $300,000,000 ever get returned to the Palestinian people, BTW?