BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:19 PM

"Many more than you think speak through me."

Yes, and we believe you, Martin. (tee-hee) Now do you feel better?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 07:16 PM

Martin there is a long standing Jewish business here in my town and they follow their faith. I am a lifelong friend to all of them and respect them. There is not a large Jewish community in the North of Ireland. I can only speak for myself when I say any Jewish family that came to live in my area would be as welcome as any culture or faith.Yes I would say you do know a lot more about your faith than I do. Only once at a synagoge for a funeral. I was born and raised a Catholic, but do not attend the church and am now lapsed.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Amos
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 06:59 PM

Your speech is full of "everyone" and other sweeping generalities full of hatred, Martin, but you see only the imagined hatred of others. Your crude and nullifying remarks have all the weight of hot air mixed with methane, a mixture I know you are familiar with, but you could have much better conversations if you weren't so dedicated to not communicating. For all your pride, the side of yourself that you reveal here, if no where else, is that of an anti-social maladjusted and somewhat paranoid hate-monger. Your complaints about bias from others therefore have no real standing because you have nullified your own case.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 06:52 PM

Symbiosis is a wonderful thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 06:46 PM

Doofus Sweeney. Most everyone in my faith agrees with me. I certainly know more in my faith than you do. How many Jews in your neighborhood? When was the last time you went to a synagoge? Just how was your Hanukah? Been to a briss lately? Let me give you a tip.........(sic)


My anger is based on hate that emenates here against Jews.

But it's not really anger. It's more of I consider the source of where that hate comes from and the pseudo-intellectualism along with the ignorance that drives it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 06:31 PM

Fine, Ron Davies. Just fine. But everyone knows that you are full of crap because all you do here is waste your time giving me a hard time because you so easily take to heart most of what I say and are so offended by it and how it relates to you.

The ones who get their chains pulled are you and your ilk, Ron, because you allow me to and it is just so easy to do so. Like I've said before, it takes you 2 or 3 posts in a row to say what you have to say because you are so hot and bothered by my truth. Believe me, I have more support here than you and your scumbags realize. Many more than you think speak through me.

Believe me, your name is bantered about plenty behind the scenes here as being one of the biggest jerks and idiots here.

That's what many others realize, Ron. Why don't you disappear, Ron? Plenty would be happy if you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 06:28 PM

Martin where does your anger come from ? Accept that people are allowed to hold different viewpoints to yourself. If we all agreed with you on a thread, I imagine you would start another one. You come across like a spoilt kid sometimes. Few people of your faith even agree with you. How do you feel about those members ?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:37 PM

The only time I would want Martin Gibson with me on ANYTHING is if I was being chased by a bear. Then all I have to do is run faster than he can.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:36 PM

In case I wasn't clear enough for you "Martin"---you have no credibility on this or any other topic, with the possible exception of guitars--and I suspect you're shaky there too.

You have insisted that Mudcat is just a game to you--just a way to kill time and pull chains. Fine.   That says everything we ever need to know about the worth of anything you say.

I for one will not waste any more time than this playing your unending stupid little game. This may be a worthy topic, but with your "participation", it's doomed to be nothing but yet another classic descent into the gutter and yet another magnificent demonstration of your paranoia.

I hope others realize this too.

After all you've told us that you are "dehumanized every day".

The process is complete.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:23 PM

Bingo, Wesley.

"Martin Gibson", that paragon of courage and knowledge, is by far the worst person imaginable to put forward the notion of Mudcat antisemitism. As has been pointed out by many, including Jewish, posters, the best thing by far that he could do for any of his causes would be to disappear. Then maybe a rational discussion of anti-Semitism could occur.

If a neo-Nazi group wanted to foment antisemitism on Mudcat, the best step they could take would be to fund "Martin". But they don't have to--they get "Martin" 's wonderful contributions for free. Such a deal--for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 05:21 PM

The one who started this thread has faced anti-semitism, has had his children face it, and all to well knows what it is and can identify it.

From your Guest positon, it's easy to identify that you are the regular Mudcatter who is the coward and has the problem, pal.

I would say that 99% of the time, those who are accused of being trolls are the ones that get the Wesley S types of this forum the most uncomfortable in their own skin. It's easy for them to just dismiss real truth as coming from "trolls."

The word "troll" here is extremely over used. The expression "don't feed the trolls" is pretty much the same as saying "ban those books."

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:40 PM

I would like to hear from you specifically what posts, threads, or posters you are referring to in your view of "Anti-semitism on the Mudcat".

I think it'll be a very very long time before you get a non-evasive response to that, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:10 PM

Guest - I would never try to say that there have never been any anti-semites on the Mudcat. But to claim that this place is overrun with them is just silly. And I suspect that some of them have been drawn to this place by a certin Mudcat member - the one who started this thread.

But this place is based on freedom of speech with little or no censorship. So folks have to realise that trolls are going to visit from time to time. And some will take up residence. We've seen that. So when you see a post that you don't like we all have the option of either engaging with the troll - or blowing it off.

At least that's my opinion. YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:07 PM

When Martin Gibson accuses any of the regular Mudcatters, it's not because of any actual anti-Semitism, it's because they have posted something he doesn't agree with. Martin is too much of a coward to face up to REAL anti-Semites.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 04:04 PM

Thanks, Guest. How very true. But they are just visiting. There are quite a few others who live here permanently.


Amos, nothing could enlighten you. You are perpetually in the dark.

Wesley S., you need to fix your own guilt before you can be addressed sensibly on anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 03:59 PM

Eh there is another Thread started by the British Nazi Party that anyone who feels that anti-semetism is rife on the Mudcat may want to visit and actually discuss the issue with very real anti- semites visiting the Mudcat this weekend.
If I had started this particular thread I would long since have left it and would be all over the Nazi Thread by now. Who better to vent at than the ultimate anti-semites, neo nazis?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 03:07 PM

Amos - You have to know that he is unable to respond to your request. And it will be your fault somehow. Or mine. Illogical - but there you have it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Amos
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:31 PM

Martin:

I am a little troubled by your assertions. While there is no question there have been lots of nasty remarks aimed at you personally, I would like to hear from you specifically what posts, threads, or posters you are referring to in your view of "Anti-semitism on the Mudcat". Enlighten me.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:26 PM

"self-loathsome" is not a word. You probably meant "self-loathing."

You're foaming at the mouth, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:13 PM

This is written by a self-loathsome Jew. It will never be in any of the Jewish press because it is not what the organized religion supports as a whole. In other words, it's crap.

And Guest, I love myself so much, it hurts with the pride I have. You are so wrong, I got quite a chuckle out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:04 PM

Like GUEST,TIA, I did a google search on anti-Semitism. I found nothing about Mudcat, but I did find THIS.

Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:44 PM

people are more concerned about muslims and islam than the jews. MG you are overeacting and i fear you have a self-hate complex

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:41 PM

Not yet. It will.

And you are quite the moron for denying it's roaring precense here, Guest. Your wallow in your ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:30 PM

Actually, I just tried, and it doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:27 PM

Draw your own conclusions.

I'm not clear what conclusions you imply we should draw Justa Picker.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:22 PM

"A Google search on anti-semitism could invariably lead to this web-site."

That's not because of anything inherently anti-Semitic about this web site or about the people who post here. The reason for that is all the threads YOU have started on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 12:47 PM

Justa Picker, perhaps that is the point I have been trying to make.

A Google search on anti-semitism could invariably lead to this web-site.

One in their right mind has to ask themselves why they are associated with it. because it is so rampant here.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 11:00 AM

"From: Peace - PM
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 07:06 PM

"there is a limit to what can be justified by playing the victim of persecution card"

And Palestinians have been doing it for decades. However, the figure of 6 million as a percentage of the 'race' is a helluva lot more than the figure of 20 million as a percentage of the Russian people (USSR)."

True Peace, but that is an argument that one might expect to hear from children in primary school, which would not be accepted by school staff as a justification.

"He did it to me first" is not an acceptable excuse from any adult either.

As for the percentages, tell that to all the Russians who lost loved ones. Their response might shock, but shouldn't surprise you.

Incidentally, I assume that you have numerical evidence for the statement as to the total number of Jewish people worldwide? If not, perhaps you could tell me the basis on which the statement was made.

You have always been one of the more reliable contributors to discussions on this forum (I stress that this comment is sincere, not sarcastic), so I would like to hear your answer.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 09:17 PM

Exactly, Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 08:27 PM

I think that what Little Hawk is describing can also be called a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you continue to dwell in despair and think that everyone hates you, pretty soon they will.

By refusing to acknowlege the suffering of others, you only earn their scorn. "Poor me," never garners much respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Justa Picker
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 07:27 PM

No privately owned internet web site (hosted anywhere in the world), is under ANY obligation whatsoever to uphold the 1st ammendment of the United States.

What an owner of an internet forum ALLOWS the world to see on his privately owned and operated web site, clearly is an editorial statement in and of itself.

Draw your own conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 07:06 PM

"there is a limit to what can be justified by playing the victim of persecution card"

And Palestinians have been doing it for decades. However, the figure of 6 million as a percentage of the 'race' is a helluva lot more than the figure of 20 million as a percentage of the Russian people (USSR).

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 06:35 PM

"Don T, as you minimize the holocaust, you maximize potential anti-semitism.

20 million Russians in WWII? Certainly not exterminated in the same way. And you are certain of that fact, I presume?

Get a grip."


The figure IS historical fact Martin. Look it up.

Twenty Million is the official figure (tho' it may be more). Not killed on a production line basis, no. Millions slaughtered during the German advance, when they destroyed everything and everybody in their path. Thousands of Russian POWs starved, or worked to death, many of them used as human mine detectors in front of German vehicles. Again five minutes research will confirm the facts.

I most CERTAINLY DO NOT dispute, or belittle the Holocaust. I posted my comment merely to draw your attention to a FACT you seem unwilling to accept. The Jews are not the only people to have suffered.

Read and inwardly digest. Then consider this also; there is a limit to what can be justified by playing the victim of persecution card, and smashing Palestinian villages, and killing civilians, women, and children is well beyond that limit.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 06:33 PM

Correct, Ebbie. What I meant was simply this: there are an infinite number of reasons why someone like "Ed" can have such a paranoid attitude, and we may or may not be aware of what those reasons are.

I was in no way implying that the Holocaust did not happen. I know it happened just as much as I know that I am sitting here typing this. I need no further convincing by anyone to know that it happened.

By the way, Peace, those lunatic ramblings you allude to on the part of Muslims who think that all Jews must be exterminated and that Muslims will eventually rule the whole world...yeah, those are insane statements by Muslim fanatics who are just as bad as the Nazis in their basic state of mind. And we all have reason to fear such people.

I fear them regardless of which side they are on in this Jewish-Muslim dispute in the Middle East.

There are similar lunatic statements by Evangelical Christians out there right now who say that when Jesus returns he is going to destroy all the wicked people in the world. Lurid descriptions are given describing how all the wicked people (which includes, of course, all non-Christians with the possible exception of the Jews whom some evangelicals believe are still the "chosen people") will be cast into a flaming pit. So, this would be all atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Bahais, Janes, Sikhs, Native American traditionals, etc, etc... Jesus will just move his hand slightly, and the Earth will open up and swallow them all. They will fall, screaming and howling into the flaming pit where they will burn in torment for all eternity.

This is in Christian literature right now. If you want to get the Muslim public upset, truly upset about Christian civilization, just direct thenm to a website that quotes only that kind of stuff from the Christian evangelicals.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 06:20 PM

Not the point, T.

As the existence of Israel is justified on the basis of previous occupation over 1000 years ago, any Muslim persecution within that time scale must be pertinent.

You can't have it both ways.

Like L.H. I am not taking sides, and am opposed to no one, but if Israel is to hold some special status based on their experiences, they can hardly object if others want the same privilege, based on theirs.

Otherwise, the playing field has to much of a slant for my liking.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 06:16 PM

Don T, as you minimize the holocaust, you maximize potential anti-semitism.

20 million Russians in WWII? Certainly not exterminated in the same way. And you are certain of that fact, I presume?

Get a grip.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 06:08 PM

"The Palestinian religious leader" - the English language is a great one for ambiguity isn't it?

That expression there could be read as meaning "this is the local equivalent of Ayatollah Khomneini, or the Pope - the man in charge. What he says carries a lot of weight"; or it could equally mean something a lot less impressive (and less threatening), as with "Nick Griffin, the English political leader" (well, he is the leader of an English political party after all...)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:57 PM

"This may be because his family had a tough time in the past or it may be for some other reasons." Precisely when did you join the ranks of those denying that the holocaust ever happened - "This MAY BE because" - No fucking maybe about it Little Hawk " teribus

Whether disingenuously or honestly, teribus misread what Little Hawk said. Instead of reading "Perhaps Ed was paranoid and fearful and dangerous because his family had had a rough time of it in the past", teribus understood it as "It could be that Ed's family had had a rough time of it in the past- we can't be sure- and that is why Ed is paranoid, etc."

Frankly, I suspect disingenuousness.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:53 PM

Crusades, Don T?

As we are discussing the State of Israel I think we are somewhere in the region of 700 years off the generations of young Palestinians and Muslims that LH was talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:52 PM

'Palestinian TV:
Extermination of Jews and subjugation of Christian
is goal of history


By Itamar Marcus & Barbara Crook, Palestinian Media Watch Bulletin, May 16, 2005.
Introduction

The final stage of history will be the subjugation of all Christian countries under Islam and the extermination of every single Jew - this according to the Palestinian Authority (PA) religious leader during Friday's Sermon.
The Jews are so evil, Ibrahim Mudayris teaches, that they cannot be subjugated like the Christian countries, and therefore the only solution awaiting them is death - literally the extermination of every Jew. In his words: "The day will come and we shall rule America, Britain, we shall rule the entire world, except the Jews."'

More info here.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:44 PM

Well, I don't think it's a case of comparing numbers and deciding who "wins".

What I am trying to draw attention to is the tendency of most people to think that the suffering of their own people is more important than the suffering of any other people anywhere.

That's what I call "tribalism". It's a backward, primitive attitude. It's what is driving mobs of fanatical Muslims into the streets right now to burn European embassies, because of a few cartoons in Denmark. That's lunacy.

It's what has driven militant Jews to call anyone who disagrees with them or with Israel about anything an Anti-semite.

It's not good, no matter who does it.

I am not taking sides here against Jews or anyone else, I am stating a principle that applies equally to all people.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:40 PM

Those - "generations of young Palestinians and other Muslims" - Exactly who the hell has ever voiced the desire to "wipe them from the map", who the hell has ever voiced the desire to, "Drive them into the sea", who the hell has ever voiced the aim of exterminating their entire race - NO ONE - FACT. Do not make patronising comparisons where none exist, you should have a greater regard for the intelligence of those who read and contribute to this forum.

Teribus

Tell me Teribus, does the word crusades ring any bells?

You should be certain of your FACT before claiming it to be so.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:32 PM

"Nothing compares to the holocaust. I am not belittling other hates in the world, past or present. But to compare other persecutions compared to the holocaust is like comparing the low minors in baseball to the major leagues."

WW2 cost TWENTY million Russian lives.

Who killed them?.......I don't think they all fell down the stairs.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:14 PM

My "populist" standing??? Don't be silly, teribus. I don't imagine myself as having any standing here whatsoever. I come to this place because it's an addictive habit of mine, not because I am some kind of big wheel here, I assure you. My frequency of posting is not done in a search for popularity, it's a behavorial addiction. Okay?

I realize the significance of the Holocaust, as you describe it, and I agree with your description. I also realize that Stalin killed more of his own people inside Russia, far more, than Hitler ever did inside his country (and occupied areas), but we don't hear as much about that for some reason. It was another Holocaust. The Armenians suffered a Holocaust by the Turks. The Beothuks in Newfoundland were wiped out to the last man, woman, and child by the white people who arrived from Europe, and so were some other Native tribes. The Tibetans have lost their entire country and its cultural heritage to the Chinese.

The Palestinian youths DO see their situation with the same sense of outrage that you express regarding the Nazi persecution of the Jews. They do. It's obvious. I agree that no one has threatened to wipe out their entire race. Obviously. I agree with you that they would be mistaken to compare their situation to that of Jews in Nazi Germany and say it's equally bad. It's not! But...they have their own distorted perception of reality, just like most people do, and you have to deal with it. They were not born evil, they have been affected by what they heard while growing up. They take it for granted that they are the number One victims around right now! (just like "Ed") That makes them dangerous, just like Ed.

I agree entirely with your perceptions regarding the heinous crimes of Nazi Germany upon the Jews. I do not disagree with you. I agree with you. Read it again. I agree with you. Read it again. I agree with you. Read it again. I agree with you. Read it again.

I never have and never will deny that the Holocaust happened. I know it happened. My father was in the Allied armies in '44-45, teribus, and he witnessed quite a bit in the process of fighting his way across Germany.

The only question is...why does a threat to Jews specifically push your buttons the most, while a threat to Islamic people pushes Osama's buttons the most? When we solve that mystery, and get past the kind of automatic primitive tribal allegiances that most people cling to in deciding who they like and who they don't like on this planet, then we may have peace on Earth.

But that's just too idealistic to be taken seriously, right? So get ready for the next bloodbath in the name of tribe, culture, religion, and all those other strange made-up ideas that people cling to in their search for identity.

I don't believe in any of it. I may enjoy some of it, but I know it's temporary and arbitrary, and not worth killing for.

(As for WWII airplanes I don't specialize in admiring the German ones above all others, and your implication that I do is snide and self-serving. It's a cheap shot. More than that, it's an attempt to paint me as a closet Nazi sympathizer, which I am not. I think the Nazis were an insane and criminal outfit and richly deserved to be utterly defeated. So did Mussolini. So did Tojo. So did Stalin (ironically, since he happened to be on the Allied side). My taste in planes goes like this: I think the best looking one of all is probably the American P-51-D Mustang. Some close runners-up: Kawasaki Hien Ki-61, Bf 109 F, Macchi 202 Folgore, Spitfire, Lockheed P-38 Lightning, Me 262. I like pretty well all WWII airplanes in a historical and aesthetic sense. I wouldn't be interested in killing anyone with them, however. It's just history. For similar reasons, I like all the great galleons and wooden ships of the age of sail, and the Roman and Greek galleys of the Classical age in the Mediterranean. If I knew what Carthaginian ships looked like, I'm sure I'd like them too.)

Just because someone says something you don't agree with, teribus, is no justification for implying that he's a Nazi sympathizer, and in doing so you are engaging in precisely the kind of thing I am objecting to in my comments on "Anti-semitism" in this thread. You're branding other people...kind of like making them wear a yellow star, so everyone can see how evil they are. People don't appreciate being branded. Life is just not that simple that you can divide it up into "the good people" and "the bad people" so capriciously. Good people do bad things because they're scared, because they're confused, because they're under extreme pressure, because they think they're defending their country, and because they usually don't know any better or think they simply have no choice.

Besides, if they happen to win a war then THEY write the histories, and everyone talks about what heroes they were for a long time afterward. People are easily led down the garden path by political and religious leaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:10 PM

Drawing up league tables of genocide doesn't seem right somehow.

The "holocaust" was indeed unique, because of the way it applied industrial and bureaucratic techniques to the process of killing groups defined as undesirable - Jews, but also handicapped people, homosexuals, and most especially Gypsies (where the age-old persecution has continued in various forms over the past 60 years, and no term equivalent to "anti-semitism" has been available as a way of tryimng to draw a line).

But all genocides tend to have unique aspects. Cambodia with its Killing Fields, Ruanda with its "kill-your-neighbours-or-else" technique of devolved slaughter, the Atlantic Slave Trade, the process of colonisation in America and Australia, where natives were liable to be seen as vermin to be extirpated...

There is an error people often fall into of talking as if these differences did not exist, and as if you could simply equate one historical crime with another historical crime.   But there is also another error, which is to use some particular quality of one such crime as a way of seeking to diminish or deny the reality or significance of another crime.

The tragedy of the Palestinians, in which their country was indeed "wiped from the map", is not the same as that of the Jews and the Gypsies and others who were mechanistically murdered in the Holocaust - but it is not negligible, something to be shrugged off as one of those things that happens. In many ways it has a great deal in common with other episodes in the history of the persecution of the Jews, where communities have been brutally uprooted and exiled.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:04 PM

OK let's take a look at Little Hawk's "Ed", who he is now trying like hell to spin to win back his own populist standing within this forum, after having got it completely wrong by introducing "Ed".

Little Hawk - "I think the term "anti-semitism" has been overused, and used in an irresponsible way in recent historical times"

Perhaps LH you should have given some concrete and verifiable examples. Maybe a brief reprise of the actual holocaust followed by some quotes from the leaders of the nations neighbouring the State of Israel emphasising their desire to eliminate Israel, exterminate it and drive it's citizens into sea. Such sources are plentiful and are clearly documented, so no problem for you there Little Hawk.

So exactly where in your analogy is "Ed's" paranoia explained away as - "This may be because his family had a tough time in the past or it may be for some other reasons." Precisely when did you join the ranks of those denying that the holocaust ever happened - "This MAY BE because" - No fucking maybe about it Little Hawk - It damn well happened it happened because all those Germans in their lovely uniforms, tanks and aircraft that you so admire let it happen, participated in ensuring that it happened, and did everything in their power to ensure that the erradication was as complete as it could possibly be. Please do not come out with analogies based on " MAY BE BECAUSE" - Beause that simply denies history as everybody on this planet knows it. If there is any nation on this Earth who rightfully should be apprehensive with regard to threats of annihilation it is the Jews, don't dare try to trivialise that, it is a factor that should clearly be taken into account.

As for the salvage attempt of your rather pathetic analogy:-

Those - "generations of young Palestinians and other Muslims" - Exactly who the hell has ever voiced the desire to "wipe them from the map", who the hell has ever voiced the desire to, "Drive them into the sea", who the hell has ever voiced the aim of exterminating their entire race - NO ONE - FACT. Do not make patronising comparisons where none exist, you should have a greater regard for the intelligence of those who read and contribute to this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 01:28 PM

Nothing compares to the holocaust. I am not belittling other hates in the world, past or present. But to compare other persecutions compared to the holocaust is like comparing the low minors in baseball to the major leagues.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 07:38 PM

I understand exactly how you feel, guys.

Now keep in mind that there are generations of young Palestinians and other Muslims growing up that feel the same way. They feel like "Ed", as I described him. So do some Jews. So do some blacks. So do some Kurds and Armenians. So do some Native Americans and Tibetans.

And that means further fear, hatred, and conflict as these stories are clung to, repeated bitterly, and passed on the the next generation. They all have their "Buchenwald" stories too, their memories of victimization. The stories are real.

You are not alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 07:17 PM

Funny, that. My ex father-in-law was a political prisoner in Buchenwald. He may have met your Uncle. (Long shot, I know.)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 07:13 PM

That should read - All people OF concience are.

As I mentioned before - my Uncle Jim was a country doctor that ended up being in one of the first Mash type units in WW2. We was one of the first doctors there when the Buchenwald death camp was liberated. The stories that he told this impressionable young man will stay with me forever. I understand when folks say - "Never Again".