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BBC 2006 folk award results

rhyzla 06 Feb 06 - 07:49 PM
Dave Hanson 07 Feb 06 - 01:49 AM
Paco Rabanne 07 Feb 06 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,Rich 07 Feb 06 - 03:47 AM
GUEST,Sundial 07 Feb 06 - 07:09 AM
John MacKenzie 07 Feb 06 - 07:30 AM
14fret 07 Feb 06 - 08:02 AM
greg stephens 07 Feb 06 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,h 07 Feb 06 - 08:39 AM
gnomad 07 Feb 06 - 08:52 AM
Big Al Whittle 07 Feb 06 - 09:02 AM
greg stephens 07 Feb 06 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,shantideva 07 Feb 06 - 09:30 AM
Chris Green 07 Feb 06 - 10:34 AM
Beardy 07 Feb 06 - 10:50 AM
GUEST 07 Feb 06 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,greg stephens 07 Feb 06 - 11:00 AM
Folkiedave 07 Feb 06 - 11:58 AM
LesB 07 Feb 06 - 02:19 PM
greg stephens 07 Feb 06 - 03:26 PM
breezy 08 Feb 06 - 11:37 AM
GUEST 08 Feb 06 - 12:19 PM
LesB 08 Feb 06 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,Hallamshire Traddie 08 Feb 06 - 01:56 PM
vectis 08 Feb 06 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,Pipsqueak 08 Feb 06 - 07:19 PM
Dave Hanson 09 Feb 06 - 02:08 AM
breezy 09 Feb 06 - 04:45 AM
greg stephens 09 Feb 06 - 07:10 AM
GUEST,DB 09 Feb 06 - 08:43 AM
Sarah the flute 09 Feb 06 - 08:47 AM
jojofolkagogo 09 Feb 06 - 08:47 AM
BB 11 Feb 06 - 06:48 AM
GUEST,Guitar Freak 11 Feb 06 - 02:14 PM
fi_in_nz 11 Feb 06 - 05:08 PM
Dave Hanson 12 Feb 06 - 03:51 AM
Les in Chorlton 12 Feb 06 - 06:13 AM
greg stephens 12 Feb 06 - 07:25 AM
Dave Hanson 12 Feb 06 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Hen Harrier 12 Feb 06 - 11:09 AM
greg stephens 12 Feb 06 - 06:55 PM
GUEST 12 Feb 06 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,Bruce Baillie 13 Feb 06 - 02:10 AM
Les in Chorlton 14 Feb 06 - 03:17 PM
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Subject: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: rhyzla
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:49 PM

If you're interested, find out more here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/folkawards2006/winners06.shtml


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 01:49 AM

No surprises there then, they might just as well call it the folk awards club and repeat it every year.

eric


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 03:39 AM

Oh!


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 03:47 AM

Hmmm, not impressed.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: GUEST,Sundial
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 07:09 AM

Why is everyone so bitchy on this board?

First everyone slags off Sidmouth.

Now it's the turn of the Folk Awards.

Stop being such miserable mudcatters!


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 07:30 AM

Perhaps Guest Sundial because they do not agree with the selections. It is nice to see these people get awards, but there are people who need the recognition more than most of them, and who are equally as good.
As for the Most Influential album classification, what a farce, it is invidious to choose one from many, and whichever they select there will be others that were even more influential to different people.
Objectivity is required when giving awards, and I don't see too much of it as far as these particular awards are concerned.
I now look forward to a badly produced TV programme covering these awards, with the prizes being presented by someone from outwith the folk scene, and the sound engineering as crap as last year!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: 14fret
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:02 AM

Giok is right.
This is the business side of music.
It's a 'club'.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:18 AM

The selection of Fairport's "Liege and Lief" as the most influential folk album is intriguing. Looking round the folk scene nowadays(whatever we mean by this term), it is difficult to pick out much that appears to have been influenced strongly by that very brief and narrow musical movement. I often talk with musicians and journalists, and read musical biographies and autobiographies, and certain musicians and recordings do come up over and over again as great influences on people. I cant say that Fairport turns up often in this context....maybe I move in the wrong circles?


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: GUEST,h
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:39 AM

I don't agree entirely with awards that claim that one act is significantly 'better' than another. Why? How do they judge who deserves to win over another? I'd far rather see music celebrated at an event amongst like minded people which recognises achievement, rather than handing out awards to Best this, and Best that...in a sense indicating there's an elitist element to the world of folk and traditional music.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: gnomad
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 08:52 AM

Like EricTR I am struck by a lack of surprises, though I was only moved to actually diagree with one award as being plain wrong. That isn't a bad average, but I did wonder who makes up the voting panel. I found the following statement from John Leonard in the "About the Folk Awards" section.

"The awards themselves are voted for by a panel of around 150 broadcasters, folk journalists, festival organisers, agents, promoters etc; people whose job it is to make judgement of one sort or another about folk music during their daily work. I have never asked musicians to vote because I think it is their role to make the music and other people's to judge."

Made me wonder a bit more:

1} How much music can an otherwise-qualified voter make before they disqualify themselves?

2] What are agents and promoters doing in there? I am sure that many of them do know about the music, but their prime qualities are commercial nous and organising ability. Given that they cannot be disinterested parties I feel that they make less than ideal electors.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 09:02 AM

I suppose it will go on as long as we sudsidise it.

I wonder if other artists - theatre, art, literature, film, tv - are as pissed off with their awards systems, as we are.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 09:07 AM

A glance at Gnomad's list of people who vote indicates what sort of criteria will be used in the selection. Don't be surprised or annoyed if you personally disagree. Long term, judgements about musicians are made collectively by punters and fellow musicians, the two categories that don't get to vote in these kind of award competitions.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: GUEST,shantideva
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 09:30 AM

Hi, Just wanted to stick my oar in. I sympathise with the comments on the awards. I do feel that things are not so simple these days in any arena. Perhaps Leige and Lief is one of those albums which kind of gave the impetus to things in terms of style and direction. I do feel that it still has something special about it, other worldly. Now you may say so what, or what's that got to do with folk music. But thinking about the debate on what is folk (and I don't want to start up yet another debate on the subject here) I like Bert Lloyd's comments that whatever you think it is, it seems to arise from a deeper consciousness and a song of common experience delivered by performer who (hopefully out of inspiration rather than affectation) sings with eyes closed or a a distant gaze as if drawing on something beyond the scope of the individual.

sd


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: Chris Green
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:34 AM

On a more positive note, yay for the Red Lion getting Best Folk Club. Congrats to Della, Chris and all the crew!

Chris (not the above mentioned one!)


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: Beardy
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:50 AM

There do appear to be some strange categories. If musicians are disenfranchised from voting in the other categories I would have thought 'Most influential album' would have to be voted for by musicians. But no, that is an audience award. How do we know what influenced the musicians we listen to?
Very odd.

Stewart


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 10:59 AM

Glad to see Paul Brady getting the lifetime achievement award. Sure it's a contrived list but still glad to see him amongst the others.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 11:00 AM

The thing about these awards, inevitable given the group selected to decide, is that they are very self-referential, and relate closely to the "folk-scene". Which, given the claims that traditional folk music represents something deep in relation to community consciousness, can only be a pity.
   Maybe they should have special awards for acts/recordings/whatever which make an effort(or maybe even succeed?) in leaping over the ring-fence and land in dear old England(or possibly Britain, people never seem quite sure where these awards apply to). The Dubliners, for example, many years ago did this with "Dirty Old Town" and "The Wild Rover": like it or not(I did) they managed to do it. They did it, in the sense they made the music part of everyday life, not something for a folk festival, or perhaps a soundtrack for some documentary or drama set in Ye Olde Days.
   Perhaps the awards should be made by those who are NOT folk journalists, festival organisers or agents for folk acts.Then we might see some very interesting results.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 11:58 AM

I doubt if an award based on votes would be any better system. It would simply go to the people with the best organised fans.

It isn't really about awards - any more than the Mercury Awards are. It is about getting publicity for a genre of music - having a shindig and slapping each other on the back. And making a radio programme.

And I am delighted that Flook got an award as Best Group and for Spiers and Boden who have done a lot to move music forward.

But don't take it too seriously is my advice.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: LesB
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 02:19 PM

For Folk Club of the year read folk concert venue of the year?

I can't pass comment on the Red Lion as I have never been there, but with a big name guest each week (with support) and no singers nights, surely it's a concert venue, (like all the previous winners). To quote from their website "For most concerts there are more than enough chairs. For a few popular concerts there are not", therefore they even think of themselves as a concert venue.

This is not meant as a critism of this, or any of the past winners of the award, (anywhere that puts on folk music has it's place), just my perception of what constitutes a folk club.
Cheers
Les


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 03:26 PM

I dont know if that list of winners in the various categories is a complete one, but I notice that sessions and dances do not appear in any context. Historically, and right now as well, those would be appear to be the major outlets for traditional music in the country YOu might expect them to appear somewhere, Maybe a best dance band, or best venues or something. Best session might be a little and difficult to decide, but as they've maaged best folk club, it shouldn't be impossible.
    It's not a matter of who wins, particularly, just seeing the categories represented. Carnivals are interesting, too. I've been involved in street music in virtually every town in the north west of England, for example, and others are active elsewhere. But this does not interest the official world. I think the whole cocept needs broadening out to something a bit nearer reality,
   Evertone of those winners is a very worthy winner, I should emphasise. But there are other worlds as well as those considered here.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: breezy
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:37 AM

Folk Clubs do not qualify for any inclusion as they are mostly periferal.

Whose to say wether nettlebed, hitchin or the Red lion are or are not folk clubs?

Me

But a folk 'gathering that does not book guests, is a singaround club, a club that books guest at least once a month is a folk club, a club that books less often is a singers club with the occasional guest.

All serious Folk Clubs ought to be affiliated to the EFDSS

Wheres the form She?


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 12:19 PM

LesB is bang on when he says the award should be for folk concert club. There is a marked difference between a folk club and a weekly concert venue.

Congrats to the Red Lion but the fact is that this award (I believe) is voted for by the artists who have an interest in next years booking.

Taken with a pinch of salt they do offer a platform for the genre.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: LesB
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 01:09 PM

Spot on Breezy, good descriptions.
Cheers
Les


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: GUEST,Hallamshire Traddie
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 01:56 PM

As a voter on the BBC awards I'd like to make a small point here.
When your booking form arrives it comes with the list of categories but it also has a list of 'suggestions to jog your memory'. (Can't remember the exact wording) Now the trouble with this is that it acts to 'lead the witness'. I voted for acts that never saw the light of day on this and the last two years. My preferences, which included the likes of Nancy Kerr and James Fagan, Jim Causley, Witches of Elswick and the astonishing Crucible didn't feature in passing as far as I could see. The insidious 'memory list' is, to my mind, the root of the problem.I personally believe in an open playing field especially when we have reviewers and the like who decide that,and I quote, "If Martin Carthy says he's good then that's good enough for me". Just the sort of 'discerning punter' that needs a list cos he doesn't get out and actually see the really good acts.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: vectis
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 03:45 PM

Seaford is a folk club with a booked guest every week but it IS a folk club not a concert venue.
Which other clubs were nominated? I looked at the nominations but didn't spot any folk clubs, in fact I couldn't find the category at all only in the awards section.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: GUEST,Pipsqueak
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 07:19 PM

I went to a Folk Festival in Seaford once, years ago, late 70s, the Dransfields were on the bill and there were about five people in the audience.

Does Seaford Folk Club attract a bigger audience now?


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 02:08 AM

Never mind who votes for these musicians, WHO nominates them ? for instance who nominated John Tams ' Man of Constant Sorrow ' for best original song, when it clearly isn't original.

eric


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: breezy
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 04:45 AM

Lets have a platform for the 'real' Folk Clubs

guide to criteria

Paid admission

paid guest once a month - Div 111

paid guest twice a month Div 11

paid guest every week , plus residents, plus floor spots Div 1

Paid guest but no regular resident and no floor spot are already catered for so it appears.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 07:10 AM

Hallamshire Traddie makes some very interesting points there: I find the memory-jogging list a bit shocking, but kind of explicable. But he ends up the phrase "good acts". I would suggest a completely new category, as we are talking about folk music, which is related to showbiz but not necessarily part of it, My new category would be:
"Musicians who could in no circumstances be described as a good act, but are great to listen to and to be with".
Because some of the most memorable nights of my life have been spent listening to people who go precisely into that category.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 08:43 AM

Well, I don't suppose that I should be at all surprised but, as someone who has been interested in folk music for four decades, I'm not impressed (as usual). Most of the winners I would regard as highly commercial artists who I usually go out of my way to avoid. This is partly because I'm a bit of a purist but also because these artists seem, to me at least, to be missing the point. I regard them as people who have agendas which have nothing to do with those aspects of folk music that I find most attractive.
Many of the winners are striving for a distinctive and commercial 'sound' that will sell recordings and ultimately they are using folk music as a platform to sell themselves. I prefer artists who want to communicate to me their passion for the music and have some understanding for where it came from and what meaning it may have had for previous generations. Folk music, and particularly folk song, is not just a collection of 'pretty' or trendy sounds it is a body of music laden with fascinating historical and cultural significance.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 08:47 AM

Ummm did I miss something???? What happened to the Best Dance Band Category from last year???? or was it an award for one year only...will it return?...or couldn't they find anyone they knew to award it to?

Sarah


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: jojofolkagogo
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 08:47 AM

Hello every body out there !!

I think that Little Wee Drummer has a VERY good point, the fact is, its the old "slap on backs" syndrome, and nobody really likes it, even the winners, although it is flattering, they know in their hearts that there will always be (in the words of Desiderata) "Greater and Lessers persons than yourself"

I think there is really only ONE thing to say and that is

       "KEEP MUSIC LIVE"

and "S#D" all the rest of the orchestrated stuff, by do-gooders who do very badly indeed !!!

Howzat !

from Jo-Jo (jojofolkagogo@yahoo.com)


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: BB
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 06:48 AM

Guest Hallamshire Traddie, has your point ever been made to the organisers of the award? Are you in a position to do so? The complaints about who wins, or even who's nominated for these awards come up every year, and it seems that the original 'reminders' may well be the reason why the awards seem to be outside of most 'folkies' reality.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: GUEST,Guitar Freak
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 02:14 PM

How come Paul Brady's guitar sounded dreadful! His fault? The sound engineer?


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: fi_in_nz
Date: 11 Feb 06 - 05:08 PM

Good points from Hallamshire Tradie - pretty shocking to hear that there are "suggestions to jog your memory" - so who comes up with these?, the promoters? I listened to the awards and it sounded pretty much like a Mike Harding show to me. Friends of friends and the "in" club. Eliza Carthy said it all when she was giving out an award and she said " this man has been a good friend of the family for many years"........ what about all those great musicians who don't know the Carthy's/haven't been "on the scene" for 30 years? How about bringing some new voices to the masses?

Since there are so many of us complaining, how about a Mudcat British Folk Awards?????

F


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 03:51 AM

That could be an interesting idea fi, no commercial interests involved,
hmm.

eric


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 06:13 AM

'Mudcat British Folk Awards'

I think this a brilliant idea. What would the categories be?

One could be something like:
'The person who most relentlessly snipes at Mike Harding'
or

'The person who is first to spot someone who is quite good then slags them off just before they become quite popular'
or

'Someone who gets paid quite well but condems singers and musicians fro trying to earn a decent crust'

Anymore?


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 07:25 AM

A very crucial category would be "Pseudonymous GUEST who most consistently tries to sabotage Sidmouth Folk FestivaL".


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 10:29 AM

I will propose myself for the ' relentless sniping at Mike Harding award '
Will someone please secont that ?

eric


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: GUEST,Hen Harrier
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 11:09 AM

Does anyone know if it's going to be televised this year, if not, why not? We get precious little trad stuff televised on mainstream, surely, this is the least we can expect?


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 06:55 PM

Les
I like your category for well-paid people trying to stop folk musicians getting paid. I sit on a few committees for civic festivals and carnivals, and you would be surprised(or possibly not surprised) at how many people, with guaranteed salaries in the £15-30,000 range(whether on holiday, of sick or whatever) who try really hard to prevent musicians being paid £50 each for a days work. I heard one such person say(I id you not) "We;re not here to give the council's money away". This was a salaried official, discussing hiring entertainment for a large English city festival, querying a fee to a band who tour the country professionally. The fee involved was £250 for a four-piece band, including travel!


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 06 - 07:02 PM

Why am I not suprised Greg. We are but travelling players, next only to beggars.
And now I know the awards actually send a list of names to be considered I know all the people who have no chance of ever being granted an accolade.


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: GUEST,Bruce Baillie
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 02:10 AM

...Well it just goes to prove what I've always maintained, that awards whatever the reason they are awarded for, or the profession they are awarded to are a load of old bollocks,I'm afriad it's just human nature at work praising the few who may or may not be entitled to it while ignoring the many who again may or may not deserve it!


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Subject: RE: BBC 2006 folk award results
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 03:17 PM

Good example Greg.

I guess their is a folk pyramid with lots of little clubs at the bottom, small concert places, big concert places and then festivals. In the end the top is governed by the bottom. It survives and lets keep it going by keeping a good friendly atmosphere in little clubs and that is not always the case.


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