Origins: Let Union Be In All Our Hearts - Grange?

Subject: Origins: Tu ra lie do
From:
Date: 13 Feb 06 - 11:25 PM

THis tu ra lie do is in the chorus of the song Let Union Be in all our Hearts. Question--the irish Lullaby and a lot of other Irish songs have some variation, tura loora addy, etc. Is their any meaning - some old Celtic or Gaelic phrase - at the basis, or is it just nonsense syllables? Another question--I find it hard to believe the song was originally a farm song sung by the Grange (substitute "farms" for "hearts")--it would seem to me more likely the Grange must have adapted it from some older (Irish?) song??

Subject: RE: Origins: Tu ra lie do
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:13 AM

See also

Let Union be in all our Hearts (DT file, which adds, without evidence, "It was originally a grange song and the original chorus was:

Let union be in all our farms,
Let all our farms be joined as one."

Comments of that sort are worthless without detail. What is a "grange song"? How did Maddy De Leon, whoever she might be, know what the "original" chorus was?

Usually, those "toora loora" things mean nothing at all. There will always be someone who insists that they are really garbled Gaelic, but that is all too often just wishful thinking based on ignorance. At all events, this doesn't look like any sort of Irish song. It's a pity that the original contributors had no useful information to give. Jim Mageean is from Newcastle (England), I think; you should be able to track him down and ask where he got the song.

Subject: Lyr. Add: LET UNION BE IN ALL OUR HEARTS 2
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 01:06 AM

Several similar nonsense choruses exist, most beginning 'Right folla rolla too rah lie oh (or ay'. There are many that use it and similar lines as a break between verses.
I also think any grange connection, mentioned in a couple of websites, would be incidental, although it could have been taken up by any group that meets together.
There are several English songs that bear the same burden of 'let us be jolly, and join together.'
I believe that 'union' is used in this sense of join and bond ogether. I haven't found the song in any of the usual folk references; it may not be very old.

Lyr. Add: Let Union Be in All Our Hearts (2)

1. Gather, friends, and let's be jolly
Drive away all melancholy.
For, to grieve, it would be folly,
While we are together.

Chorus:
Right folla rolla, too ra lie oh (3x)
While we are together.

2. Old King Solomon, in all his glory,
Told each wife a different story,
Of the things we take delight in,
While we are together.

3. Eating and drinking are so charmin',
Piping and dancing there's no harm in.
All these things we take delight in,
While we are together.

Cease your quarreling and fightin',
Evil-thinking and back-bitin',
All these things we take delight in,
While we are together.

Grab the bottle as it passes,
Do not fail to fill your glasses,
Toast each moment as it passes,
While we are together.

Not too different from the version in the DT. One of the websites suggesting a Grange connection says the first two lines of the original chorus were:
'Let union be in all our farms
Let all our farms be joined as one.'
No reference is provided.

The version I reproduced above from: http://www.uptownoncalhoun.org/songs/let_union_be.htm
I would guess that it is a fairly recent version.

Subject: RE: Origins: Tu ra lie do
From: Snuffy
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:18 AM

Toora-lie-do in Not for Joe a.k.a. om si the gom

And also loora-lie-do in Tiger Bay.

Subject: RE: Origins: Tu ra lie do
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:43 AM

even "Sweet Betsy from Pike" often had "singin' too-ri-lie-ooh-ri-lei-loo-ri-lie-day" added as a refrain...

Subject: RE: Origins: Tu ra lie do
From: woodsie
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 09:55 AM

Tour a lura etc. In Irish songs means the equivalant of the likes of "all together now"

The root is there i.e. TOUR = ALL

Subject: RE: Origins: Tu ra lie do
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:34 AM

Forgive my ignorance but -=what is "Grange" in this context? I have a vague memory of depression/post-depression farm co-ops?

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Tu ra lie do
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 10:36 AM

OK. A quick Google sorted that.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Tu ra lie do
From: Snuffy
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 12:17 PM

MINNESOTA STATE GRANGE

Subject: RE: Origins: Tu ra lie do
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 07:07 PM

Maddy De Leon is a long-time member of the Pinewoods Folkmusic organization, and is very highly regarded for her knowledge of traditional music. I find the "whoever she might be" remark above to be unnecessarily rude.
    By now, I assume all of you have become aware of the farmers' organization called the Grange. The Grange chapter in our town is still quite active, and Caroline and I joined the one in Huntington, Vermont, when we lived in that community some forty years ago. I don't have time to dig it out now, but the National Grange published a songbook in the latter part of the 19th century. I'll try to provide more information about it later.
    Sandy

Subject: RE: Origins: Tu ra lie do
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 08:56 PM

In that case, I apologise for my comment; the implied criticism was directed at the DT for its omission of any indication as to who Maddy is, and what basis her comments might have; it was not intended in any way to denigrate her. I expressed myself badly, and ought to have been more careful. I did run a search through google before posting, but didn't find anything helpful.

I expect that the DT file dates back to the days before the whole thing went international; at that time everybody probably knew who everybody was, and it didn't seem necessary to specify. Nowadays the lack of that information can easily lead to confusion or misunderstandings.

More information on the Grange would be welcome; I had proceeded from the assumption made by the original poster, and was thinking mostly in terms of possible Irish connections, which presumably are not an issue here.

Subject: RE: Origins: Tu ra lie do
From: Goose Gander
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:56 PM

Here's a little bit about . . .

Populist Movement and the Grange

from . . .

Illinois During the Guilded Age

Subject: RE: Origins: Tu ra lie do
From: Noreen
Date: 15 Feb 06 - 02:48 PM

I believe I remember Jim Mageean telling me that he had changed the chorus from 'farms' to 'hearts' to make it more widely applicable.

It was rather late one night at a festival, so memory might not be that accurate!

Subject: RE: Origins: Tu ra lie do (Let Union Be)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 01:28 AM

I can't find anything on this song, other than these two threads. This song has become part of the "folkie canon," so I'm surprised that we don't have more source information - nothing in Roud, nothing in the Traditional Ballad index. Reinhard Zierke has a bit, but not much more than what's in the two Mudcat threads.

Has anybody uncovered more information about the sources of this wonderful song? Has anyone found a Grange songbook that has this song?

-Joe-

---

The San Francisco In Harmony's Way group has the song on their eponymous recording, with lots of verses. Knowing almost all of the singers, I suspect they made up many of the verses themselves:

LET UNION BE

Come my lads, let us be jolly,
Drive away all melancholy,
To be sad it would be folly,
When we’re met together.

    Let union be in all our hearts,
    Let union join our hearts in one.
    We'll end the day as we’ve begun,
    We'll end it all in pleasure.

    Right-folla-rolla-rol too-ra-li-o,
    Right-folla-rolla-rol too-ra-li-o,
    Right-folla-rolla-rol too-ra-li-o,
    When we’re met together.

Solomon, a wise man hoary
Told of wine in song and story.
In our cups we’ll chirp and glory,
When we’re met together.

Long ago, the Greeks and Romans
Checked their cups for signs and omens.
We foresee full tankards foamin'
When we’re met together.

Whisky one can ne’er malign-oh,
With her pedigree divine-oh.
With good friends we’ll drink and dine-oh
When we’re met together.

So fill the board let there be plenty,
The man who wants to be content, he
Eats and drinks enough for twenty,
When we’re met together.

Come my lads, let’s sing in chorus,
Merrily, but yet decorous.
Praising all good drink before us
When we’re met together.

So let there be no sad misgiving
While we're yet among the living;
Fill the room with glad thanksgiving
When we’re met together.

Bacchus, God of wine so merry
Also honors port and sherry.
He'd even bless a Tom and Jerry
When we’re met together.

Now let our voices ring the rafters,
Fill the room with song and laughter,
Joyful as the sweet hereafter
When we’re met together.

Milk is meet for infancy;
Some folks like to sip their tea.
Not such stuff for you and me
When we're met together.

Take the bottle as it passes,
Do not fail to fill your glasses.
Water drinkers are dull asses,
When we're met together

The name "Silberman" rings in my head as I contemplate some of these verses, but there are others in the group who are almost equal to Ed Silberman in delightful silliness.

Subject: RE: Origins: Tu ra lie do (Let Union Be) - Grange?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:31 AM

Hmmm....starting to get something. Look at this quote from Urith: a tale of Dartmoor, by Sabine Baring-Gould, 1890 (page 40):

Come my lads let us be jolly
Drive away dull melancholy
For to grieve it is a folly
When we're met together

So my friends let us agree
Always keep good company
Why should we not merry merry be
When we're met together

---

And another book by Sabine Baring Gould (1891), In the roar of the sea, page 369:

Water drinkers are dull asses
When they're met together
Milk is meat for infancy
Ladies like to sip Bohea
Not such stuff for you and me
When we're met together

---

Oh, and yet another book by Sabine Baring Gould (1898), An old English home and its dependencies, page 331:

Here's the bottle as it passes
Do not fail to fill your glasses
Water drinkers are dull asses
When they're met together

Milk is meet for infancy
Ladies like to sip Bohea
Not such stuff for you and me
When we're met together

---

The song is also mentioned on page 338 of The Singing Game by Iona and Peter Opie, who speculate that "Come My Lads" may be an ancestor of the children's song, "Mrs. Macaroni:

Here comes Mrs. Macaroni
Riding on a big fat pony
Looking for a house of glory
This is Sarah's wedding
Om pom Susianna,
Om pom Susianna,
Om pom Susianna,
Mrs. Macaroni

---

Oh, look - Roud does has the song, listed as Come My Lads. I think that proves it may not be an American Grange song.....
The most promising citations from Roud are these:

• Hitchcock, Folk Songs of the West Country (1974) pp.28-29
• Williams, Folk Songs of the Upper Thames (1923) pp.54-55
• Graebe, Come and I Will Sing You (2010) p.7

It's also in the Sabine Baring-Gould manuscript collection at Take Six, which is the best source of all.

Subject: ADD Version: Come My Lads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:50 AM

Here are the three versions in the Sabine Baring-Gould manuscript collection at Take Six.

LXXVI. COME MY LADS

A.
1.Come my lads let us be jolly,
Drive away dull melancholy,
For to grieve it is a folly
When we're met together.
Come let's live and well agree,
Always shun bad company,
Why should we not merry, merry be
When we're met together.
CHORUS: Come my lads let us be jolly, etc.


2........
.........
.........
.........

3. Solomon in all his glory
Told us quite another story
In our cups to sing and glory
When we're met together.

Taken down from Edmund Fry of Ledford in Devon.

---

B.

1.Come my lads let us be jolly,
Drive away dull melancholy,
For to grieve it is a folly
When we're met together.
So my friends let us agree
Always keep good company
Whey should we not merry, merry be
Since it is our holiday.
CHORUS: Fol-di-dol-de-dol-de rido
Fol-di-dol-di - Fol-di-di-do.

Taken down from James Olver of Launceston in Cornwall, 1883

---

C.


1.Come my lads let us be jolly,
Drive away dull melancholy,
For to grieve it is a folly
When we meet together.
Let union be with all its fun
And we will join our hearts in one
Aye we'll go through as we've begun
Since it is our holiday

2. Solomon in all his glory
Tells us quite a different story
Tells us to sing praise and glory
When we meet together.

3. Keep from quarelling and fighting
Evil speaking and backbiting
All these things take no delighting
When we meet together.
Let union be with all our fun, etc.

Taken down July 6, 1892, performer: Samuel Gilbert.

---

Caveat

This stuff is really hard to read. Please follow the link above and read the originals for yourself, and then please post any suggestions or corrections you may have. Thanks.
-Joe-

Subject: ADD Version: Come My Lads, Let Us Be Jolly
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 04:06 AM

Here's a transcription from a printed copy, also in the Sabine Baring-Gould manuscripts at Take Six.

No. 76. COME MY LADS, LET US BE JOLLY.

Come my lads let us be jolly!
Drive away dull melancholy
For to grieve it is a folly,
    When we're met together.
Come, let's live and well agree
Always shun bad company,
Why should we not merry merry be,
    When we're met together.
CHORUS: Come my lads let us be jolly, &c.

Here's the bottle, as it passes,
Do not fail to fill your glasses,
water-drinkers are dull asses,
    When we're met together.
Milk is meet for infancy,
Ladies like to sip Bohea,
Not such stuff for you and me
    When we're met together.
CHORUS: Come my lads let us be jolly, &c.

Solomon a wise man hoary
Told us quite another story.
In our drink we'll chirp and glory,
    When we're met together.
Merrily, but yet decorous,
Praising all good drinks before us,
    When we're met together.
CHORUS: Come my lads let us be jolly, &c.

Source: Songs and Ballads of the West, Baring-Gould, S. (Sabine), 1834-1924
Page 49

---

Click to play (melody)

Click to play (harmony)

Subject: RE: Origins: Let Union Be In All Our Hearts - Grange?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:35 AM

I've never heard of any logical reason for Fol Di Dols or tura lur ayes, in fact I recall being told by by gran long time ago that they're simply song writers tricks to fill in where they can't think of another line or to fill in little lilts, much in they same way in the 60's when the Beatles added lots of Yeah Yeah's to fill out the tunes, or when Rock, N'Rollers added terms like 'be bop a loola' or 'shebooms' so hey ho diddle eeh aye dum

Subject: RE: Origins: Let Union Be In All Our Hearts - Grange?
From: Barbara
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:14 AM

I did borrow a songbook from our local Grange, and talk to the folks who have been a part of it here in Oregon since the 1930s and they have no recollection of any Grange song like that, nor is it in the undated songbook. I would guess the book is no older than the 1930s (language,typeface, weathering etc).
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Origins: Let Union Be In All Our Hearts - Grange?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 04:17 PM

There have been several grange songbooks published. The first, reputedly, was Songs for the Grange by Miss Caroline Hall (1871), which was based in large part on the collecting of Rev. Aaron Grosh. I believe she later married, becoming Dora Hall Stockman. Historical snippets suggest that the Grange Organization wanted more control, however, and so produced their own Grange Songbook in 1874(?). There is a Grange Songbook listed with Amazon, published by the National Grange in 1983--I suspect it has consolidate the old songbook with Hall's and perhaps some others. (They also published a Junior Grange Songbook in 1986.)

Given that grange organizations were often local affairs, not strictly associated with the National Grange Organization, I suspect there have been many other privately published songbooks. The Minnesota State Grange has a grange songbook published in 1964. Then there's Twenty-five Peppy Grange Songs, by James Rowe (1931). Michigan State published a collection in 1935... Sadly, I haven't found scans of any of these online.

As most of these collections are fairly small (the largest compilation appearing to be an expanded Stockman songbook, with 154 songs), it's hardly surprising if this particular song doesn't appear in any particular one, or even in most. The song's previous existence in England wouldn't argue against it being a grange song, either, except in nascent origin, since many of the grange songs were thinly adapted hymns, and probably adapted folk/popular songs as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let Union Be In All Our Hearts - Grange?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 04:30 PM

I should mention Grange Melodies, by James L. Orr, 1891 (though I think first published earlier). Google Books has a 1974 edition which you can preview.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let Union Be In All Our Hearts - Grange?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 05:09 PM

Also worthy of mention: George Frederick Root's The Trumpet of Reform (1873 or 1874), "a collection of songs, hymns, chants and set pieces for the Grange, the Club, and all industrial & reform organizations."

BTW, Orr's Grange Melodies first appeared in 1881.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let Union Be In All Our Hearts - Grange?
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 05:15 PM

Thanks for the explanation of Grange, it's been the hole I've glossed over when introducing it, by saying "This is a grange song" and not saying anything else. I'm a terrible person. Yay!

Subject: ADD Version: Come My Lads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 03:01 AM

Well, I still haven't seen any evidence that this song came from the Grange. Besides, I thought the Grange was closely allied with the Temperance movement - why would they be singing a drinking song like this?

In The English Folksinger, this song is called "Come My Lads":

COME MY LADS

Come my lads be light and jolly,
Drive away all melancholy,
To be sad it is a folly.
When we meet together.

    CHORUS
    Let union be in all our fun,
    For to join all our hearts in one,
    We'll end the day as we begun,
    We'll end it all in pleasure.
    Rite fol-er rol-er rite too-ra-li-do,
    Rite fol-er rol-er rite too-ra-li-do,
    Rite fol-er rol-er rite too-ra-li-do,
    When we meet together.

Solomon tells us in his glory,
Tells us quite a different story,
Tells us to be good and holy,
When we meet together.

Use the bottle as it passes,
Do not fail to fill your glasses,
Water drinkers are dull asses,
When they're met together.


Source: The English Folksinger, by Sam Richards and Tish Stubbs (William Collins and Company, 1979), page 60.

Notes: Sung by Mrs. F. Lowry, South Brend, Devon. Collected by Dave Lowry, 1969.
This song was twice noted by Baring-Gould in the 1880s, and also appears in Folk Songs of the Upper Thames where Alfred Williams disparages it as 'a second-rate drinking song.' It's a typical convivial piece - a little high-flown, with a Biblical reference thrown in, and influenced by hymn and glee singing. The point of the song, though, is that it is good to join in. The collector heard it from his grandmother, a native of Ivybridge, near Plymouth.

---

Click to play

Now, there are two notes I don't like in this MIDI, but I transcribed what's printed in the book. I think the second note on "folly" should be Bb, as should the last "do" in "li-do."

YouTube Video of this version. Sung by Alan Rosevear in Exeter.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let Union Be In All Our Hearts - Grange?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 03:50 AM

Where did you come across a close alliance between the Grange and Temperance movements? Considering the hefty percentage of crops that have traditionally been used to produce liquors, I'm skeptical.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let Union Be In All Our Hearts - Grange?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 04:55 AM

Hi, Artful Codger-
Look at the grange songbooks linked to above, and you'll find temperance songs. Google temperance grange, and you'll find lots of stuff - click here for an example. In the U.S. Midwest where I'm from, it was only the Catholic farmers who drank, and you won't find much of a connection between the Catholics and the Grange.

Now, I may be wrong, but my hunch is that the DT's connection between this song and the Grange, is a bunch of serious hooey.

Let union be in all our farms,
Let all our farms be joined as one.

That's gotta be somebody's joke.....

-Doubting Joseph-

Subject: RE: Origins: Let Union Be In All Our Hearts - Grange?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 09:50 AM

We asked Maddy about this last weekend. She said she got the grange connection from Mark Gilston Mark Gilston

Subject: RE: Origins: Let Union Be In All Our Hearts - Grange?
From: GUEST,Mark Gilston
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 01:54 PM

Back when I learned and started singing this song publicly, no one else in the US was singing it. When I learned the song from Jim Mageean back in 1976 in England, he told me he had changed the line from "Let union be in all our farms" to "Let union be in all our hearts". He also mentioned it was originally a grange song. I assumed he meant the British grange movement which presumably predated the American granger movement of the 1870's. I never had any reason to question him, and I never suggested or entertained the notion that it might be an American song, grange or otherwise. I have been unable to find any information on a British grange movement on line, so I can't speak for Jim's information. Maybe when he said a "grange" song, he was simply referring to united farms.

Jim is on Facebook and on MySpace, so queries should be sent to him.

Subject: ADD: Slavish Trade of Drinking
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 03:15 PM

Oh, lookee here (click):

SLAVISH TRADE OF DRINKING

Come, my lads, and let's be merry,
    Take a glass, and not to many,
For fear it should your ruin prove—
    Beware of what you're doing.
For drinking is a slavish trade,
And many a beggar it has made ?
Yes, thousands in the grave are laid,
    All by the sway of drinking.
        Fal lal de ral, &c.

If you go to the Ale-house for to drink,
They'll hand you a chair with a compliment
And kindly ask you how do you do—
    You think that is rare doing:
But when all your money's gone,
Into the streets they will you turn;
Then you must either starve or steal,
    All by the sway of drinking.
        Fal lal de ral, &c.

O keep from swearing and from fighting,
Evil speaking and back-biting;
All such as this take no delight in,
    Whilst you do make merry:
For when you drink your money goes,
And when you're drunk you pawn your clothes,
Then like a fool yourself expose,
    All by the sway of drinking.
        Fal lal de ral, &c.

Sage Solomon, in all his glory,
Tells you quite a different story,
We ought to sing in the praise of glory,
    Whilst we do make merry:
But as we're all met here to day,
Let's drink and drive dull care away;
And each be happy while he may—
    Let's all drink and be merry.
        Fal lal de ral, &c.

Bodleian Ballads Catalogue: Harding B 11(3545)

Printer: Stephenson (Gateshead)
Date: between 1821 and 1850
Imprint: Stephenson, Printer
Illus. Ballads on sheet: 2
Note: Printed on blue paper.

Note that the original text has a couple of errors - I've put them in bold.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let Union Be In All Our Hearts - Grange?
From: Bill Brown
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 07:08 PM

That "Slavish Trade" lyric supplied above by Joe Offer is apparently dated earlier than the "Let Union Be" or "Come My Lads" lyrics listed higher up. Or perhaps the "Come My Lads/Union" song predates "Slavish" but nobody on this thread happened to come across an earlier version.

Either way, this strongly implies that one of these is a parody of or response to the other.

Subject: RE: Origins: Let Union Be In All Our Hearts - Grange?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Nov 23 - 10:15 AM

King Solomon in days of yore, he
Told each wife a fifferent story