BS: National pride

Subject: BS: National pride
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 12:30 PM

I have often observed that national pride seems to vary. So you will not find any German rucksack tourist with the flag on his rucksack whereas the Canadians...

NATIONAL PRIDE IN COMPARATIVE PERSPECTIVE

If that link works for you, scroll to the first figure for the overall results. If not, you have to rely upon my selection. People in 34 countries have been asked questions of the type "I'd rather live in my country than in any other". Now we know that all our prejudices are correct after all:

The US Americans have the first place, Australia the third, Canada the sixth, New Zealand the eigth, and Great (great?) Britain the 19th. Last of all nations, of course, comes Germany ("Germany, Germany, below all..."). In a breakdown for different subpopulations, nearly always the majority subpopulations are prouder than the minorities. One interesting reversal: Maori are prouder than the majority population in New Zealand.

Of course, there have been surprises: Why is Venezuela of all countries tied with the USA for the first place? Why are two very rich European countries (Norway, Switserland) at quite low positions below some poor European countries?

The authors' explanation for Germany's low position: war guilt that has been shown to suppress German national pride in the past is still operating. But if that's true why is Austria at fourth rank? Oh I see they have been victims in that war...

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: kendall
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 01:32 PM

Pride is a deadly sin.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: cool hand Tom
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:11 PM

Is it legal to fly a union jack in your front garden????.Not that i would want too but the Americans seem very open about this and many have flags on their lawn,in schools etc

       Regards Tom.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:16 PM

I Canada, you can fly whatever flag you want. However, the Maple Leaf has to be higher than the others. Would you go to jail if it wasn't? No. But your neighbours would not be happy campers.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:23 PM

We do not pledge allegiance to the flag like they do in the US, so the Stars and Bars has a much greater significance in their life than in that of many other countries.
The interesting thing to me as an outsider is to see the upsurge in the displaying of the cross of St George in England, which I think is nice.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:24 PM

Tom, the short answer is yes, but if you want a flag pole of any height, then you'll need planning permission for the pole. If you fly it from a tree, or from a pole attached to your house, then you're fine.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:28 PM

Don't mention the war................

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: cool hand Tom
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:57 PM

Allways down to planning permision eh,LOL.Seems you cant do a thing without letting the council know.

      Regards Tom.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 08:32 PM

Wolfgang - The reasons Canadians display their flag on their backpacks (rucksacks) is that they do not want to be mistaken for Americans. You will see very few displays of Nationalism in Canada, except during the Olympics or other sporting events.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 08:42 PM

Dianavan has it right! We are most eager not to be mistaken for Americans when travelling abroad. (Guess why....) Being Canadian is the safe way to go. This is why even young Americans traveling will sometimes put a Canadian flag on their backpack.

But patriotism is a fairly quiet thing in Canada, except when we are playing international hockey. We like our country, but we seldom go on and on about how it is "the best" or anything like that. It would seem arrogant and rude to do that.

I have never seen a country more aggressively and self-consciously patriotic and certain of being "the best" than the USA, and that is one of the things that worries other people about America. It's like...who are they going to be fighting a war with next?

One must take care around countries that rave on incessantly about their flag, their dead heros, their military history, and their constitution. Like "yon Cassius (who) is lean and hungry" such countries are dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 09:13 PM

Well said, LH. True, too.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: bobad
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 09:29 PM

Ditto what Peace says.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 10:50 PM

Actually, we're not really that proud in the US; we've just been brainwashed in our public schools and propagandized to act like it. I think we're prouder of our individualism and don't like to be characterized as being just like whatever view of the US someone is trying to denigrate.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 11:34 PM

Shortly after 9/11, a morning talk show was on the radio at work. The hosts (3) and most of the callers were pouring on the "proud to be an American" ad naseum. One caller dared to say that he was very happy to be fortunate enough to be an American, but that, since his place of birth was just a lucky accident for him, he saw no reason to take pride in the fact. No one on the show came close to getting what he was saying; they called him just about everything they could get away with on radio, and apparently regretted that there was no other country or continent that they could tell him to "go back to".

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 06:07 AM

Wolfgang,
         You appear (like a lot of people on mudcat) to have a problem with the word 'Great'as in 'Great Britain.' This is not some arrogant affectation on our part, as the expression goes back to Roman times. They used it to distinguish our island from Ireland, so we became Big Brettania and Ireland became Small Brettenia.
          The Normans used a similar expression to distinguish between the two land masses based on their respective size.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 07:30 AM

I'm English and happy to be so although I'm not sure that I would say that I take pride in being English. I now live in the USA, a move that has changed my view on the nationalism that I was subject to before the move.

I am not proud of the government of either the UK or the USA but appreciate the people and achievements of both countries. I would happily pronounce my Englishness to anyone, without any shame - that is where I was born and the place that has influenced me as I grew up. I am starting to love my adopted country as well.

To me the USA has the flavour of being a teenager - very strong opinions and enthusiasms - because it only has a history for the present occupants stretching back about 400 years. The UK in comparison, is more mature and maybe more at ease with itself and with less need to proclaim its presence.

I am pleased that the cross of St George is seen more often in England. However, I think that it may be that the flag is being shown as a silent protest at those who wish to homogenise the people and to subsume, to some degree, the English culture so as not to upset minority groups. That is a little worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 07:56 AM

This is total crap.

Yes, Americans have pride and nationalism more than anyone else.

It is because we truly have more reasons to.

And if that honks you off or makes you edgy, that is not my problem.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: cool hand Tom
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 08:52 AM

I dont think you have any more reasons than any other country,you just express it more.I could go on about the reasons i like the uk but dont.And it dosent make me edgy,what u do is your buissness,Scotland,Irland,wales i find have loads of national pride.When i go to scotland u see more St andrews crosses that you can shake a stick at.Good on em.

      Regards Tom

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 12:08 PM

Flamenco Ted, I know that and my remark was only tongue in cheek (though I know some make such a remark in anger), for the rank of Great Britain was surprisingly low, at least surprising to me. However, when I read the contributions here, it is less surprising, for many of those questioned in Great Britain may have felt a closer allegiance to a smaller unit like England, Scotland, Wales.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 12:19 PM

Think you are right with that Wolfgang, I had an English father & a Scottish mother & have always lived in an area of Britain that has passed between English & Scottish control over the centuries.
I consider myself Northumbrian,British,European & a World citizen in that order.
All of this is atypical of my country especially identifying with Britain more than with one of its constituent Nations.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Grab
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 12:23 PM

I think you've got something there, Wolfgang. You won't find too many Scots and Welsh celebrating union.

For England though, it's only very recently (within the last 2-3 years) that the English flag has had any connotations other than football hooligans and the BNP. So it's been difficult for the English to have any kind of national pride without a symbol to put that pride behind. This only came about through media support of various sporting events - surprisingly, for once the press actually did something that had positive effects on society!

Before that time, you could guarantee that anyone wearing a St George's Cross was a thug - it's certainly been the case all my life. The symbol still scares the crap out of most ethnic minorities in England, even though they realise it doesn't mean now what they'd spent all their lives knowing it meant.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: The Badger
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 08:12 PM

We gave up national pride when we voted Tony Blair in!

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 10:07 PM

Too right Badger!

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 10:13 PM

Amen, Badger.

A lot of Americans lean more toward "Our country, right or wrong--when wrong to be put right"--expressed by Carl Schurz, rather than the classically crass expression of 2 Mar 2006 7: 56 AM on this thread.

Saddled with the current "leadership" as we are, national pride is temporarily out of the question--except in natural wonders, in which the US is rich. But even these have to be defended against what passes for leadership now.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 04:16 AM

You are right Wolfgang. I am English. Britain was a 'bolt on' arrangement that is quietly disintegrating.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 04:42 AM

It's a rather old Bolton arrangement. Wales has been included since about 1300.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: GUEST,The rest of the world
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 05:11 AM

Martin Gibson's response above exemplifies why the rest of the world looks on red-necked, brain dead, cousin-shagging Americans like him with derision bordering on contempt.
The fact that the poor sap probably actually means it is what makes his babbling all the more pathetic.
It really is sad that a nation like America, with all its manifest advantages, seems determined to allow its third-rate underclass to drive the train. No wonder real Americans these days tend to get a tad embarrassed by all the flag-waving, raghead bashing, good-ol-boy bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 05:16 AM

Bolton is in Lancashire.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: kendall
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:26 AM

I'm with frogprince on this one. For instance, why should I be proud of what my government is doing? I have no say in the matter at all.
Mine is the only country that ever dropped the big one on another.
What has Japan done to be proud of? Germany? England?

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 04:48 PM

What has Japan done to be proud of? Have you any idea of the beauty of traditional Japanese culture and the dynamism of the new? Ever seen a really good Japanese garden, seen taiko drumming, read a good haiku or admired a minka? The same kind of reply could be made for Germany and England. Being English myself, I could give you a list of our achievements, but modesty forbids and anyway I'd be here for a couple of weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 05:01 PM

Slow computer, huh?

lol

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 06:10 PM

Well I would love to be proud of Ely Cathedral, the invention of rubber tyres, the splitting of the atom, the song "Searching fo Lambs", Newton's "Laws of motion", the Clifton suspension bridge, Shakespeare's plays and any one of a number of Islay malts; but regrettably, I had nothing whatsoever to do with the creation of any of these things. I just happen to live in the same geographical area as the inventors.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 06:45 PM

Japan, aside from its fairly brief and disastrous experiment in imperial ambition, has done a tremendous number of wonderful things in the creative sense, and so have most other nations of people, if not all of them.

People who insist that their country is "the best" are just advertising their own insecurity about themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:35 PM

"When shall it be said in any country of the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance nor distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes are not oppressive; the rational world is my friend, because I am the friend of its Happiness: when these things can be said, then may that country boast of its constitution and government."
                                          
                                       ---Thomas Paine

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: gnomad
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:44 PM

Never seen that before, Elmer, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Boab
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 02:11 AM

Maybe there is a difference between a "graven image" and a "flag".
Can't be much though---

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: kendall
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 08:24 AM

Thomas Pain hit the nail on the head.
(Where else COULD you hit a nail?)

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 08:41 AM

Paine was a fascinating character. One one hand, he was way ahead of his time--with proposals for Social Security, what amounted to a minimum wage, etc.- and he trashed organized religion enough to gladden Shambles' heart--so much so that even Jefferson felt he had to not be seen as a bosom buddy. On the other hand, when he was annoyed with the US government, he gave Napoleon advice on how to conquer the US--basically blockade and take the ports--, and he accused Washington having been a coward during the Revolution. This last was, as I recall, since the Washington administration wasn't doing much to get him out of a French prison, where he'd been put for, among other things, opposing the execution of Louis XVI.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 09:46 AM

Pride comes before the fall...

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 05:18 PM

it's only very recently (within the last 2-3 years) that the English flag has had any connotations other than football hooligans and the BNP./I>

Well, it's always flown over Anglican Churches, any time they have a reason for flying a flag, such as a church fete.

Hanging flags out of the window really took off when the European (football) Cup was held in England few year sback. It's more about footballism than patriotism - a way of saying "this house is excited about the football". I remembewr one house wnear us which was wearing the flags of three nations.

I've always seen the flag of St George as much less in-your-face than the Union Jack, and far less imperial baggage. Nice simple two colour cross, Scandinavian looking. Flag of a small country, not of a would-be world power.

As greg pointed out though, however much people might be pleased at things that have been done in their part of the world, or the way it looks and so forth, that's nothing to do with anything they have done, so what's to be "proud" about?

Actually I think we use "pride" in two different senses here - there's personal pride, for things we have done, and it's unfortunate that we use that word talking about stuff like countries or football teams, when we really are talking about is feeling pleased and happy. But using the same word in both contexts can trick us into carrying over a kind of possessive quality that just doesn't belong, sometimes with disastrous results.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 05:20 PM

it's only very recently (within the last 2-3 years) that the English flag has had any connotations other than football hooligans and the BNP.

Well, it's always flown over Anglican Churches, any time they have a reason for flying a flag, such as a church fete.

Hanging flags out of the window really took off when the European (football) Cup was held in England few years back. It's more about footballism than patriotism - a way of saying "this house is excited about the football". I remember one house near us which was wearing the flags of three nations.

I've always seen the flag of St George as much less in-your-face than the Union Jack, and far less imperial baggage. Nice simple two colour cross, Scandinavian looking. Flag of a small country, not of a would-be world power.

As greg pointed out though, however much people might be pleased at things that have been done in their part of the world, or the way it looks and so forth, that's nothing to do with anything they have done, so what's to be "proud" about?

Actually I think we use "pride" in two different senses here - there's personal pride, for things we have done, and it's unfortunate that we use that word talking about stuff like countries or football teams, when we really are talking about is feeling pleased and happy. But using the same word in both contexts can trick us into carrying over a kind of possessive quality that just doesn't belong, sometimes with disastrous results.

Subject: RE: BS: National pride
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 11:28 PM

Despite all I've already said here, my appreciation for many things about the U.S. and life here probably fringes over into a certain measure of that "possessive pride" about "my" country. But I think I can say on my own behalf that it's tempered with some reason and awareness, in comparison to what I see widespread around me.