BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: gnu
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:21 PM

Of course NOTHING is still sacred. Why, I try to do NOTHING ever day. I am happiest when there is NOTHING to do. I am a true believer in NOTHING. NOTHING is the true path to anything. Put your trust in NOTHING. Amend!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:27 PM

shouldn't the kendall groupie thing be listed in here as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:54 PM

Why does Kendall get all the groupies? How come I don't have groupies?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: gnu
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 02:18 PM

You do, Rap. I await every one of your posts with baited breath. Or, is that the mackerel?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 02:25 PM

There are tiny living beings in every location on Earth, Bill...microbes, single-celled organisms, protozoa, lichens, etc. Therefore, "for every drop of rain that falls, someone gets wet". ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 02:52 PM

microbes, single-celled organisms, protozoa...
Baloney! all fallacies promulgated by atheistic secular humanist scientists! If those things really existed, they would be mentioned in the Bible!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 03:17 PM

Betcha not, LF....

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:15 PM

so, Little Hawk, even IF I allow you to apply the term 'someone' to entities which have bo discernable self awareness , we have this drop of rain which falls down into this vent stack over a furnace which is engaged in sterilizing and destroying bio-hazards....

only takes ONE counter example out of hundreds of gazillions.. ;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:19 PM

hundreds of gazillions

I recall that the Japanese made a film about one. Don't think it was hundreds, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:21 PM

Not much living in or on

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:23 PM

THIS river, I'll betcha!


(Sorry, hit the wrong button.)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:36 PM

Okay, Bill, ya got me there...but...wai-i-i-i-t a minute...that raindrop has gotta hit a few micro-organisms on its way down through the air, right? Why, I bet it even contains a few inside itself already! Therefore it STILL got someone wet!

(isn't debating fun?)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: khandu
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 07:26 PM

I do not know how to do "♫♫♫" on my computer.

Kk

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: khandu
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 07:31 PM

<>♦

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 07:42 PM

Has it been definitively established that there never was a place called "Atlantis", then?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 07:53 PM

No....

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:35 PM

But can the ontological dilemmas posed in the Book of Urantia be juxtaposed in convincing fashion with the theological implications expounded in the pages of Oahspe? And will this have serious consequences on the Celestine Prophecy and will it somehow involve Billie Meier and the Secret Chiefs of the Argentinum Astrum and the White Brotherhood in the City of Pyramids? Or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:44 PM

ah, Little Hawk, probability says a rain drop will 'likely' hit micro-organisms on the way down, not that they MUST!

(yeah, and silly debates can be almost as much fun as serious ones!)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:57 PM

Anyway, that drop of rain that lands on the vent stack turns into steam, right? And it then re-forms and drops on some other location. So through the miracle of water re-incarnation, it can probably be said that eventually, for every drop of rain that falls, someone gets wet.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 11:37 PM

Beautifully stated, Carol. Now we have Bill on the ropes, staggering in confusion, as his mind stalls before the irresistible force of our well-reasoned and unchallengable arguments. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 01:57 AM

Damn straight, LH.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 08:58 AM

What about my lava? Life exists on/in that??

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 07:06 PM

Groupies? I have gropies. That's even better!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 07:11 PM

Life in lava.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 07:36 PM

Of course there's a place called Atlantis.

There's one just south of Bumfuck, Iowa, and another in the wilds of New Zealand.

And there's at least one club called atlantis, and if you get dragged there, you better hope you don't remeber the night...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 09:25 PM

Then there's that Darby O-feckin-Gill and the little feckin' payple.

"To be shure, have ye nivver sung the Wishin' Song, at all, at all, at all, me bucko?"

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 10:56 PM

The first mumblings about a place called "Atlantis" that sank beneath the waves way back came from no less a person than Plato. Now, where he got his information, nobody seems to know. Whether he had actual historical data, had been listening to legends and giving them credence, or sniffing glue, is unclear. He believed that it was "beyond the Gates of Hercules" (the Straits of Gibraltar), which, one presumes, puts it somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean. It sank, says Plato, during a massive earthquake. He did not, however, say that it was a marvelously spiritual and technologically advanced civilization; he believed that, at one time, it had been a military threat to Athens.

All the stuff about some marvelously advance, utopian civilization living on a place specifically called "Atlantis," complete with paranormal mental powers, possessing magnificent ships and flying machines powered by some mysterious kind of crystals (dilithium, no doubt), came from folks like occultist Helena Blavatsky and her cadre of woo-woos. This was accelerated by the writings of Richard S. Shaver. Shaver wrote for Amazing Stories, one of the more popular science-fiction pulp magazines (lots of the biggies—e.g., Azimov, Heinlein—got started there), and he wrote a lot about such things as the lost continents of Atlantis, Lemura, Mu, and maybe even others. He also came up with that "hollow earth" business (any planetologist, or scientist in general, or anyone who understands planet-sized bodies and gravitational forces, knows that this is physically impossible). Shaver, with the collusion of the, then, editor of Amazing Stories, Ray Palmer, claimed that, although he was putting this stuff forward as fiction, it was all true. A young Harlan Ellison, never known to be particularly shy, recognized it for exactly what it was, and gave Shaver and Palmer a heavy ration of grief about the so-called "Shaver Mystery" they were trying to peddle. Thanks partially to Ellison's gadflying, and, of course, the amused and amazed snorts of the scientific community, it became known as "The Shaver Hoax." Nevertheless, it developed a substantial cult following. Self-styled psychic Edgar Cayce predicted that Atlantis would rise out of the Atlantic Ocean near the Caribbean in 1968 and usher in a New Age. (Damn! Missed it by that much!).

Genuine historians and archeologists believe that if something like Atlantis every did exist, it was probably the island of Thera, or possibly Crete, both of which were inhabited by relatively advanced societies (advanced in terms of social structure, economy, and standard of living—but no flying machines or telepathy—sorry!). Unfortunately, Thera was a volcanic island, and sometime around the 15th century BCE, it perished in a massive volcanic explosion that hurled gigatons of matter into the upper atmosphere and caused a massive tsunami that devastated much of the eastern Mediterranean, particularly the Minoan civilization on Crete. Thera, or Crete, or both, may be the factual basis for the belief in the legendary Atlantis, and where Plato got the idea. Currently, the island of Santorini is shaped like a partial ring. It, and some nearby islands form what is left of the rim of the caldera of a huge volcano and all that remains of Thera. People live there. The island has no fresh water, so they have to collect rainwater in cisterns. They have a small wine industry (volanic soil usually produces good grapes), but the main industry is tourism.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 11:22 PM

Plato may have had actual historical data about Atlantis. If so, it has been lost, along with much of the other information passed on from earlier times. A great many ancient records are said to have burned in the great library in Alexandria during Julius Caesar's fight with the Egyptians.

If Plato was serious about Atlantis (and one assumes he probably was), it seems pretty evident that he did not mean (the remains of) Thera or Crete. They were definitely not located "beyond the pillars of Hercules", but were within easy reach of Greek ships in Plato's time.

Why would he say "beyond the pillars of Hercules" unless he meant it? After all, it is a rather striking thing for him to have said. Beyond the pillars of Hercules was a place where Greek vessels did not willingly venture...perilous and unknown waters, in their opinion. Their galleys were not suitable ships for venturing into the deep Atlantic.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 09:57 AM

remember, Plato said that Atlantis was thousands of years before HIM...and even Thera was 1200 years before Plato. Records in those times were pretty sparse and vague and based on legends and hearsay. Distances and directions were not measure exactly, and the civizilations we DO know about from 10000-12000 years ago that were not destroyed in disasters were pretty primitive.

It takes a huge leap of faith to assume that Plato had any real 'data'. All the looking may well find interesting stuff about some settlements and fill in some gaps, but I won't hold my breath that we ever discover a large, advanced 'different' group worthy of attaching the name "Atlantis" to.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 11:06 AM

I believe that Atlantis = Tir na nOg.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 12:01 PM

"Records in those times were pretty sparse and vague and based on legends and hearsay."

Heh! A mere assumption on your part, Bill, and one that cannot be substantiated. They may have had ancient maps of Atlantis. They may have had written records of contact. They may have had artifacts. You're suggesting that OUR legends and hearsay NOW about matters a few thousand years prior to Plato are just as good or more accurate than his information then was? ALL we have about it now (Atlantis) is legends and hearsay. Plato may have had a good deal more than that.

I would not underrate the acumen of the learned men of Greek civilization if I were you, Bill. They had a lot of knowledge that was later lost in what we term "the dark ages".

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: number 6
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 12:16 PM

My wife and I met an elderly expatriate American lady (very interesting person)living in St. John's Newfoundland ... she had arrived 40 years previously due to some 'calling' ... anyway her theory was that Newfoundland is part of the lost continent of Atlantis ... take or leave it, but an interesting theory by her explanation.

BTW ... she had one of the most intriguing back yard gardens I have ever seen.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 12:16 PM

Has anyone ever come up with an explanation of the Piri Reis map of Antarctica? Piri Reis was a 15th century Turkish sailor, and the map shows the coastline of Antarctica as it would be if it was not under a covering of ice. Antarctica was not "discovered" until the 19th century, and the ice has been there far longer than the period of time covered in the recorded history now in our possession.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 12:29 PM

Read Plato... it's OBVIOUS he was writing FICTION as social commentary when he wrote about Atlantis...

It's fiction... always has been... always will be....

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 12:42 PM

Piri Reis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map

"... the claim that the map depicts a portion of the ancient Antarctican landmass has certain criticisms. Firstly, the map is large-scale and low-detail, and the landmass pictured is arguably not accurate enough to be matched to any actual landscape.

Secondly, any similarity it may have to modern radar imaging of the Antarctica under the ice may be irrelevant, since in the period when Antarctica was not covered with an ice cap its shorelines may be so different as to be completely unrecognizable, due to the pre-icecap sea level being significantly higher, and thus obscuring a great portion of the sixth continent.

Thirdly, for it to be Antartica one would have to explain why the South American east coast ends at the mouth of the Amazon. Clearly it does not, the landmass depicted is just the continuation of the coast and includes features of Tierra del Fuego and the Malvinas/Falklands."

For what that's worth.....

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 12:51 PM

You may be right about Plato, Clinton.

What is more interesting is not whether you are right or wrong about that, specifically, or about anything else, but why you are of a mindset that almost always puts you instantly in defence of the most conventional viewpoints of present-day culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 01:13 PM

Heh. The Wikipedia page didn't come up in my Google search on Piri Reis.

...maybe it was abducted by aliens.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: MMario
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 01:18 PM

I believe in hamster replication. I've seen hamsters both begin and finish the replication process.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 02:36 PM

"Methuselah lived nine-hundred years. . . ."

According to the Book of Genesis, 5:27:   And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.

That may be regarded by some as "The Word of God," but it doth stretch mine credibility, and probably thine as well. I think they had some fairly fuzzy ways of measuring time back in those days (and "those days"—Biblical times—overlap the age of the Greek philosophers). And this, of course lent some equally fuzzy time-lines to legends, such as the legend of Atlantis.

The Greeks, especially those of the Aristotelian persuasion, were a lot more precise, having made a number of basic scientific discoveries that still hold up pretty well today, and were pretty amazing considering how little, beyond their own observation and intelligence, they had to work with (no Hubble telescopes or computers). But I think Plato's estimate of when Atlantis sank was probably something in the nature of "one helluva long time ago." Then, when somebody asked, "Well, how long ago?" the answer he came up with was a wild guess. 1,500 years? 15,000 years? Remember, "myriad," a rather imprecise term meaning "approximately 10,000" was a commonly used word to indicate "I don't know how many, but a whole bunch!"

And the same goes for distances. Edgar Rice Burroughs wrote a lot of stuff about what was going on up on Mars, but that was a long way from here, we didn't know much about the place, and at the time, no one could check up on him. And both he and H. Rider Haggard wrote a lot of stuff set in deepest, darkest, dankest Africa, which, at the time was only very sparsely explored. Methinks "beyond the Pillars of Hercules" had the same mysterious aura of unexplored places back in the days of Plato. Terra Incognita, "Here Be Dragons!"

And as far as the wisdom and knowledge of the Greeks is concerned, no, it wasn't lost during the Dark Ages, it just got diverted to the East, and tabled, at least as far as Europeans were concerned.

The burning of the Great Library of Alexandria was a major historical disaster, considering the scrolls that went up in flames. But a big question remains as to who actually burned the library. Plutarch blamed Julius Caesar. Edward Gibbon blamed Theophilus. One or two Christian bishops have also been blamed for it (along with the murder of Hypatia). Mark Antony was supposed to have given Cleopatra over 200,000 scrolls for the Library long after Julius Caesar is accused of having burned it.

But much of the knowledge of the ancient Greeks was preserved by Arabs, Muslims, et al, who added a great deal to the store of knowledge. The Dark Ages were a European phenomenon. While Europe was groping about in ignorance and superstition, in the Middle East, major advances were being made in astronomy, in the development of mathematics, including algebra (which is an Arabic root word), and much more. One salutary effect of the Crusades was that this knowledge began trickling back to Europe. At the same time, Thomas Aquinas discovered Aristotle, and tried to prove the existence of God through logic. He failed. All of his arguments have holes in them, but his efforts did earn him a sainthood and it got others interested in employing Aristotelian logic.

Aristotle advocated learning by observation of the external world and using rigorous logic (essentially scientific method), as opposed to the Platonic practice of looking inward, which the Christians had adopted. With Plato, enlightenment was supposed to come through contemplation of the True Essence of things; with Christians, through prayer, meditation, and Divine Revelation. Copernicus, Kepler, and Galileo were inspired to try to learn what it's all about by looking outward and using their "God-given" brains instead of the European Christian version of navel gazing.

Bingo! Renaissance!

No, I don't think we lost all that much actual knowledge because of the loss of the Alexandrian library. Many of the plays of Sophocles were lost (only about five remain) and that was a tragedy, as was the loss of other literary works. But anything discovered by a process of rational thought can be re-discovered by rational thought. (But making back-ups is definitely advisable)

Considering that deep-dive vehicles have explored, and are currently exploring, the depths of the oceans and have been as far down as discovering and exploring the mid-Atlantic ridge, and that various kinds of sensor probes from satellites have pretty well mapped the oceans' depths, if a place such as Atlantis, existing "beyond the Gates of Hercules," I think that by now they would have found incontrovertible evidence of it (not just a haphazard row of squarish-looking stones that, if you squint just right, look like they may at one time have been some kind of a road).

I don't think Plato's Atlantis really existed any more that Thomas More's Utopia really existed. It's more a State of Mind.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 02:46 PM

"They may have had ancient maps of Atlantis. They may have had written records of contact. They may have had artifacts."...right, 10,000 years old. That's a lot of maybes...
   I have a lot of respect for what those clever old Greeks did, but their civilization was not AT that level for all those centuries. Someone had to MAKE clear records, someone had to PRESERVE the records, someone had to translate and remember what they were about, and relate the data to reality.

They 'may' have had past lives who lived there and channeled memories of the street plans....but, like I said, I wouldn't hold my breath till we are sure.

Do you **really** think that what Plato said justifies any high level of certainty? A legend may be loosely based on 'some' reality, but legends are embroidered.....

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 03:46 PM

No, I don't think it justifies any high level of certainty, I just think it's interesting and should not be rejected out of hand.

You see, most people still tend to believe what they want to believe. And that determines which side of the argument they will immediately rush to support whenever something like this is mentioned. They have an emotional predilection either toward or against the unconventional or the unusual or the "unconfirmed".

That's what's interesting. Why are some people more comfortable only with the confirmed while others are naturally enthusiastic about the hypothetical?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 03:51 PM

"others are naturally enthusiastic about the hypothetical"

Talk 'what if' all you want... what IS gonna get ya in the end....

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 03:56 PM

Death is gonna get my body, in the end. But what if I am not solely my physical body? Then what?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 04:21 PM

What if you are?

Think of all the time you've wasted preparing for something that never happens...

I'll let the 'after' sort itself out, especially until I have ANY good evidence that says there might BE any 'after'...

If there turns out to be an 'after', I'll deal with it when I get there.....

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: number 6
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 04:26 PM

I'm with you on that CH ... why worry, why speculate, think more about the 'now' cause that's what is ... anyway you'll find out where that freight train is going when they throw you onto the car.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 04:33 PM

Life as Holocaust analogy?

If you wanna live yours like that, go right ahead...

I don't see the need myself....

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: number 6
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 04:38 PM

"Life as Holocaust analogy?"

huh .... I didn't mean it that way ... when our day is through, we get on the old freight train to take us home.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 04:51 PM

If I am wrong, Clinton, it won't matter. I won't know I was wrong. I'll just be dead. I wouldn't mind that in the least, frankly. It would be like going to sleep. Sounds nice.

I don't believe in an afterlife because I have to have one to look forward to in order to be happy. I don't worry about it. I don't care. Either way is absolutely fine with me. Oblivion/non-existence or a conscious afterlife...either way is perfectly all right, as far as I'm concerned.

I gradually came to believe in an afterlife (after many years of believing in no such thing) simply because, based on a lot of different personal experiences and info I came across, it began to seem much more likely to me than no afterlife.

No other reason than that. It seems more probable to me that we are spirits temporarily building and inhabiting a body than bodies temporarily manifesting life which then ceases to be upon the body's death.

I owe this impression to no particular religion. In fact, religion has little or nothing to do with it as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 04:52 PM

I'm not convinced there's a freight train either...

,-)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 04:54 PM

Then lie down on the tracks, would you? ;-D