When is it time to leave a band?

Subject: When is it time to leave a band?
From: nosluap57
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 03:33 PM

When is time to leave a band?

The situation sucks.

I've been invloved in a Christian rock band for three years, playing rhythm guitar. I have never been a band prior to this one, so I would guess that I am a rookie when it comes to dynamics and relationships within a band. I will not go into any details on what has been happening, but suffice it to say I am seriously considering leaving the group. I feel my reasons are legitimate, and that there is not a very good chance the underlying issues can be resolved.

So I am faced with a dilema, of sorts. Do I stay and try to find a way to mitigate those unresolved issues? Or would it be better to walk?

I am hoping for any insights or wisdom which can be shared with me which might shed light on things I have not considered.

hmmm, after reading this, sounds almost like a "Dear Abby" letter....

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: MMario
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 03:38 PM

Have you presented your issues to the band as a group? Or given the nature of your music is there any chance of bringing in clergy (or someone else for that matter) as a mediator?

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 03:45 PM

LOL-- was afraid it was a member of ours asking!

See PM.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Spot
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 03:56 PM

Hallo everybody...

          If you're thinking about it seriously enough to post here, then my feeling is - you need to go!! Dont waste time trying to resolve the unresolvable...or feeling guilty...!! Find another band or set one up yourself!!
Just my opinion, based on my experience...good luck!!

                   Regards to all.....Spot

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Scoville
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:01 PM

Sometimes it's just time to go. If you've given them a fair shot at compromise and it still seems like your (yours and the band's) interests are diverging . . . well, that's OK. I bailed a couple of years ago on a music club with whom I had been very involved for over ten years. They were becoming more and more of a "teacher" type organization with much less advanced-level jamming, and very dependent on a small but powerful faction of members. It wasn't what I wanted and I was bored, and resented that so few people continued to support the things that were the reason I had joined in the first place. A handful (literally. We're talking three people) split off and started a tiny jam of our own. It's hardly ideal but it's better and it saved us getting more and more frustrated and angry with the original club.

Obviously, I don't know what the issues are and it's not my place to ask, but I hope you can either resolve them or take your leave with a minimum of hard feelings.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:08 PM

Please pardon my first reaction.

My husband and I have found that a band focusing on Christian music has as many warts as any other band, but also certain priorities and a set of tools at its disposal. (True of church life in general.)

These aspects may actually lead you in another direction entirely from the one you are considering. I have some experience with this if you want to talk privately.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: open mike
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:18 PM

pray

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:29 PM

I'd agree that usually when you seriously consider leaving a group, raising the issue with the group doesn't necessarily resolve it. Still, it might be worth trying, and if you've invested a lot of time and energy in this band, and you didn't try to communicate with the other members, you might regret that part of your decision.

Or if "the situation sucks", truly, then it's probably time to move on. You'll be better prepared to join or form a new group.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:35 PM

There are two main reasons for playing in a band (or for doing most things, come to think of it) - either you really enjoy it, or you're being paid to do it. (Best of all is if you're doing both, I guess)

If you're not enjoying it, and not being paid enough to put up with it, and the people running it aren't going to listen to your problems with what's going on, get out.

I would guess that, if you're pissed off enough to raise the problem with strangers, you don't believe you can resolve the issues within the band, so the answer to your question has to be: NOW.

Good luck.
Andrew

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:35 PM

Leaving a band/having it break up is always difficult, but particularly so with the first one. I was given some very good advice last year (when my second one broke up), which is to develop yourself as a musician independently of whatever band you are in, and not put all your eggs in one basket. Go out and do solo stuff, work on side projects with other people, or other members of the band. That way, if it does come to the crunch you're not facing the total cessation of your life as a musician and it's less gutwrenching.

Admittedly I was given this advice by a musician who is terminally non-committal about projects.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,jim
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:54 PM

I have left bands or taken a haitis*, always on good terms with the other members, for various reasons: different musical goals, different professional goals, health reasons, a better opportunity presents itself...

I've found that if I explain my reasons for leaving clearly, that it can be done quite easily. If you have an interest in playing, an opportunity will present itself.

I still get together and jam with members of groups I have left and with people who have left groups that I stayed in.

*Is that how you spell it? You know what I mean.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 05:00 PM

You may find a lot of the pressure you are feeling comes from the religious perspective. Re-think it as if it were a hobby or business band, and forget the need to proselytise or do "God's work".

Try jamming with others or auditioning before you decide, too.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: labougie
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 05:48 PM

Never trust christians - there's ALWAYS a hidden agenda and they're NEVER the sweet reasonable souls they claim to be!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 06:39 PM

That aint just true about christians, it covers the whole spectrum mate.
Guest JMC had it right.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: goodbar
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 08:54 PM

when it stopes being fun.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: goodbar
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 08:54 PM

...that was a typo, so don't think i'm retarded.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 09:35 PM

Hmmm...some very interesting comments here...and good information too!

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: open mike
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 10:03 PM

who makes up the band?
(any other mudcatters in it?)
who has the equipment (if any)?
who books the gigs (if any)?
who decides how to divide the labor?
"    "      " "   "      " proceeds?
do you play at any re-occuring gigs
such as festivals, church functions, etc?
would the remaining band members continue
to play at the places that you have been
playing at? how will it affect your opportunities
to play at similar events?

how will they get along without you?
how will you get along without them?

good luck and let us know how it turns out..

i used to play basically volunteer with a
band where others got paid...(the fate of a
bodhran player??)

and i travelled for nearly an hour to get to
the monthly dance gigs and others came from
minutes away. I finally lobbied for minimal
gas money, but after years of that decided
that it was not worth it, and stopped coming.
I am sorry to say that no one said "where have
you been, are you coming back" or please return..
so i guess it WAS time to discontinue that gig!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Alba
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 10:41 PM

It's time to leave a band when the Band spends more time talking about what they should do rather than actually doing it or...
When one or two of the members go off on an ego trip about who's band it actually is and who started it in the first place. (If that's the case then why did they need other people to join them)...or
When you feel you are being treated with no respect for the effort you are making.....or
When the Music being played no longer makes you happy...that's a crunch point.

That's just my own personal opinion mind you so make of it what you will or don't!!:) I only work on projects with various Musicians rather than just a fixed group of collective Egos....hey it ain't a dirty word, we all have one. It's just that some folks egos are bigger than others and so sometimes that makes it hard for the other Band members to be heard when one or two big egos out of say four egos in the band are taking up so much space on the stage or in the Studio.**smile**

All Bands are not like that however. Some Bands are great and get along just fine and enjoy and respect each others contributions. The audience can hear that in their Music.
It is at the end of the day all down to the personalties of the members I suppose.

I hope all works out well for you whatever you decide to do.
If this ain't the Band for you....there will be another one that is.
Jude

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 10:54 PM

This is the cruelest of cuts.

Weeks, even months before, there were "moths flying" before their eyes.

"your sound, tinckled like rat's feet over broaken glass in a dry celler. Most all of the American Blues/Folk/Sould from the MC are are dead/

Leave and vanish into the darkness (1000 MudCat souls have gone before.)

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: nosluap57
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 01:03 AM

In response to all those above:

I did address my concerns to the group. It touched of a major sh*tstorm, and simply made everything worse.

The issue of respect is very much in play here, and has created a lot of "baggage" for me.

Band rules agreed to by all are disregarded when not convenient.

My suggestions on stylistic direction and arrangements has been disregarded.

So I am going to quit. That will still be sad, in spite of everything. But thanks to all of you who made me realize it is not the end of the musical world for me.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 01:28 AM

"When is it time to leave a band?"

When you start asking that question.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 01:56 AM

You should never voluntarily leave a situation where you are happy.
Clearly you aren't.
Once you have moved on never try to go back.
("If this doesn't work out I can always go back to my old job" is not commitment.)
Finally ,& this is an observation not a criticism, an individual can only become disillusioned if they have illusions in the first place.
Hope whatever you choose to do works out for you.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 03:33 AM

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

|I disagree with everybody on this one.

Every gig I do, theres always someone who looks wistfully at your guitar abnd tells you they 'once in a group'.

the thing is you reaslly do make quite an investment (sometimes financially, but always spiritually) in these ventures. And when you leave, you undersestimate the parturition (is that the word) pains. A lot of people after a day or two, find that they simply can't face building all that up again, and they never put themselves on the line ever again.   And they wind up looking wistfully at your gear after a gig.

This situation is made ten times worse, by the wilfullness of some people, the cavalier nastiness of others, the professional leavers who build groups up and never see a project through, the tendency of talented people to be complete prats...........as Judy Garland said I could go on singing til the cows come home, you all know the song.

My advice for what its worth is.....if the music is happening and people like it, stick with it. You might look a long time before you get that mix right again. Look at all the great bands.... none of them are peopled by angels. All the best bands fight with each other onstage..... the who, the stones, the beatles, the beach boys.

don't be Pete Best or Staurt Sutcliff, not while theres a chance you might get to be John Lennon.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:37 AM

John Lennon wore silly glasses, lived with a strange Japanese woman, and worse of all.... got shot! Leave the band NOW while you still live!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: cptsnapper
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:24 AM

I've always found it useful that I've combined solo & group work: even when I've been in a group the fact of playing solo can give both a song indeed give the group a different dynamic. I've been accused of not being loyal to the group although the person concerned eventually played some solo gigs himself & apparently enjoyed doing so & in his case seemed to find the different perspective to be useful. But that's only my situation.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:34 AM

Can you give the band your 100%,in your frame of mind?I don't think so.Make your decision,explain politely but firm.If it turns sour,then you know you're better off out of there.Anyway,bands break all the time,then get back together again,sometimes.A band is a lot of hard work but,it's only music after all.Good luck.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:47 AM

"All the best bands fight with each other onstage....."

I've been to hundreds of gigs and scores of festivals (as well as playing scores of gigs myself with bands) and I've never seen a fight on stage. I'm obviously watching the wrong bands!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 06:21 AM

SIMPLISTIC ASSESSMENT :-

If you are doing something because it pays you a wage, it is a job. You are not expected to enjoy a job - you do it because it pays you cash which allow you to the things which you do enjoy.
(ignore the fact that some people find a job they also enjoy).

If you are doing something for enjoyment, (being paid minimal expenses does not count as a wage) then you MUST enjoy it. If you are not enjoying it, make your farewells - you don't have to storm out with a big bust-up, you can just say it is time for you to move on (you've stuck it out so long a final 6 gigs gives time for them to look for a replacement).

If that isn't acceptable to them (or to you), then you shouldn't be there at all.

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 07:13 AM

nah melodeonboy, its just the other band members manage to get to the guy sneaking up on you with the meat cleaver every night....

don't take careers advice from someone who goes round Hull shouting olay!
can't do accents)

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 10:11 AM

I wondered what that butcher's apron was doing backstage!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 10:14 AM

Has anyone seen the drummer lately?

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Ross
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 10:21 AM

When the band you're in, starts playing different tunes

Then I'll see you on the dark side of the moon

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: MMario
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 10:35 AM

BTW - the rational behind my question in my first response - you would be surprised at the high percentage of situations where someone is discontent in a job or relationship where they have *not* discussed it or even mentioned it to the other people involved.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 10:54 AM

weelittledrummer, you don't disagree with everyone in this thread. :~)

Some of these posts make me wonder:

Has anybody here ever stayed in a less-than-ideal situation because it met your goals, such as learning someting from people or situations that you really want to learn?

Anybody here ever have to pay their dues to gain the experience necessary for credibility?

Has our culture become so feelings-oriented that our feelings or gratification are considered the only reasonable guide to action?


It doesn't always feel good to be in a learning situation. I bet we could all recall times when a lesson was learned the hard way and when we were grateful (with hindsight), for both the lesson and the patience of the people we learned from.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: jojofolkagogo
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 11:27 AM

Well, my answer is the same as SPOT's :

If its time to ask "should I leave" then I think, probably, the TIME is RIGHT to do just that, LEAVE

Go find new horizons - there are plenty to see ...

Lots of Luck with it

Regards from Jo-Jo
([e-mail])

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 11:38 AM

Susan. this is it! We obviously inhabit the same sort of universe. were I not embarked a upon a lifetime of debauchery and idleness - a bigammous offer of marriage would be inthe next post.

Its only in the fan magazines that the great artists are well adjusted , sweet tempered sweety pies.

For example, Woody Guthrie, by all accounts seems to have made himself disagreeable to both Pete Seeger and Ronnie Gilbert - but who wouldn't want to have met him and seen and learned from seeing that great creative process up close.

And most of these tin pot folk club gods have arrived at the feeling that they're pretty hot shit - because they DO have something to offer. It might not be something you can learn from - but you should be aware that that skill exists - the situation where it works, and where it doesn't.

At the very least before you leave. Make a list of what was good about the band, what you want to take forward with you.

That way you won't end up like me, an old idiot who passed up on a great musical partner without noticing the fact for about 25 years.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Scoville
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 11:44 AM

WYSIWYG (man, I can never spell that) I agree that people shouldn't bail out every time they're the least bit discontented, but this doesn't sound like a "least bit" situation--it sounds like there's been quite a bit of infighting. As I said earlier, I obviously am not in on what is going on with the band, and I cannot tell to what extent nosluap57 is involved (is this an occupation or a serious pasttime? i.e. does his livelihood depend on it?). If he needs it to pay the bills, he's probably better advised to hang in there until something else--musical or otherwise--comes up so he doesn't end up homeless.

If he's doing this out of love of music, it clearly isn't working out and why make yourself miserable trying to do something you love with people who are not headed in the same direction? That doesn't make him a quitter, that just means that he and his bandmates wanted to expend their talent and energy on different things, and he might be better served finding a different group of people with more compatible schedules and goals.

I left the music club because it got to the point where I was starting to hate all things dulcimer, not because I was too lazy to do anything about it (I was the music director and class coordinator, which was a job from Hell, and sometimes ended up teaching three out of four classes myself because everyone else wanted to be led around by the nose by our local celebrity musicians). I play more now than I did then and like it a lot better. I don't play with as many people but we have a better time and are more willing to learn new stuff. I didn't lose a thing.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 11:52 AM

Here's an old ditty, at least 10 seconds old, that I found in a dusty part of my brain. It may shed some light on this discussion, or maybe not:

It's time to leave the band,
When the drummer's wife
Falls in love with your wife
And you fall in love with the drummer.

Now there's many a choice
One makes in life,
But no choice could be dumber,
Then to fall in love with a drummer!

Feel free to substitute "banjo" or your instrument of choice but be sure to make it rhyme.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble, who plays in Roll & Go

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 12:06 PM

w.l.d., I doubt my pastor-husband would agree to bigamy! :~)

Scoville, I am not characterizing anyone as a quitter. I'm just offering an alternate way one can think about the issues; what people choose to do with that is up to them, and not up to me to judge.


There were a lot of things I hated (and could not physically tolerate) about the way my own band was running. I took a bit of time off, during which time my co-leader and I had a lot of long talks about reorganizing some of the structures of who did what. He was better able than I had been, to motivate some needed changes. I came back to a much better situation (IMO for all concerned). If I had decided it on the basis of feelings that were perfectly well justified by the factors involved, I'd have missed a great opportunity to learn to work in a whole new way. I FELT like quitting, and I seriously contemplated not coming back. I'm glad I only took a break, and that the situation was such that I could do that.


Not all bands work by democracy-- our doesn't, although all members do share in making agreements. The reality of our band-- and I suspect many others-- is that without the acknowledged leaders, there would be no band. The other members are fine musicians, each in their own special way, but not all musicians are able (or willing in some cases) to do the work it requires to be a band.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 02:14 PM

noslu, spend your energies finding some new folks to play with. It would be another story if you could hash things out and work through rough spots with the auld group. But if simple attempts to talk and compromise (you are willing to compromise, aren't you?) just result in repeated nasty snits, then there's nothing you can do. Very few bands last past a few years and for good reason, some people grow as people and musicians, meanwhile others grow big egos and drug habits. The only bands that last forever are those which are unusually cordial people, or unusually successful ones who have a huge economic incentive to keep hanging together.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 02:33 PM

Lots of strong (one could even say extreme?) opinions in this thread, and gems of wisdom in most of them.

One facet that I didn't notice being mentioned was the notion of commitment to the group and/or ideals (or, if a business, contract). This was obliquely touched on in the "can the band get along without you" question, but did not seem to be explicitly listed. (or I missed seeing it in the various posts)

If you have made a specific commitment/promise/contract with this band, then that needs to be a factor in the discussion & decision. Not saying you must stick with your commitment come hell or high water - if the situation has changed significantly over time (as it appears from the description), then that promise may need to be re-thought. But it seems a bit narrow-sighted to simply say "leave whenever you want to".

If you have a personal commitment to an ideal, a Cause, and/or God, then consider if a) your continuing in this band can actually help fulfill that commitment rather than interfering with it and b) if you could continue that commitment without being in this particular band.

If there are contractual agreements, including gigs the band has committed to for the future or intellectual property rights (songs written or arranged or recorded), then the contract will need to be revised to adapt to your departure. That's the business/legal version of reconsidering your promise. If your departure would make it impossible for the band to fulfill it's future contracts, that does make it a bit more sticky and liability will need to be considered.

Sounds like in this particular situation, a departure is called for. A responsible person will make reasonable effort to not simply abandon promises or commitments. I assume you've made appropriate efforts in that wise.

Good luck with your future musical endeavors!

Val

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:44 PM

My further advice would be not to be downcast or bitter about how things have panned out, but to look at what you have learned from your time with the band and how you can take it forward.

Well ok you can be downcast and bitter, but just do the other thing too.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:56 PM

Regardless or band politics, bad feelings, money, or any other considerations - if you don't enjoy it anymore, GET OUT.

Good luck

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: open mike
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:57 PM

it stands for What You See Is What You Get that helps me spell "it"

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:01 PM

Most people just call me Susan-- that's how I sign my posts, usually.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:26 PM

I have been following this thread, and am inclined to think along the same lines as weelittledrummer--while sharing a lot of Val's perspectives--

The reasons that you give for wanting to leave have to do with "respect", and the idea that your suggestions on arrangement have been ignored---from this, I am guessing that feel that you should be playing a different role in the band than you have been, and that the band doesn't want it.

My old and dear mentor, Uncle Albert (may his memory live forever) used to say "This ain't a democracy, it's a dictatorship"--and bands are all that way(though most are fairly congenial about it most of the time). It isn't that easy to get a steady gig in a working band--because working bands are fairly rare phenomena--somebody has to make it work--and that means, on ocassion, that somebody has to say, we do this, not this, and everybody else, regardless of personal feelings, has to say, "OK"--because in the long run, making it work is what it's about--

I don't really know anything about what went on in your band, or what was said when the whatever hit the fan--but here are some things to think about--

Did anyone agree with your points?
Did people try to explain to you why your ideas weren't appropriate?
Do others in the band have greater experience and background than you?
Do you feel that you are a better musician/singer/writer/arranger than the others?
Do others disagree with your assessment of your abilities?
Do you have other, immediate, opportunities to perform?
Are there opportunities as good, or better, than the one that you are leaving?
Is the contibution that you have made appreciated?

If the band is a working band, chances are that they can replace you in fairly short order, if necessary, though perhaps not without inconvenience, or regret--whether you can replace them is another story, as the wee one pointed out above--

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 09:37 PM

"When is it time to leave a band?"

When you feel the need to ask that question.


Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 09:42 PM

It's time to leave the band when they stop picking you up on your way to the gig. Which is what Pink Floyd did to Syd Barrett after David Gilmour joined.

Of course, Syd had been torturing them for months at rehearsals by making them learn a tune which he changed every time. He called it "Have You Got It Yet"...

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Grab
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 07:41 AM

Not that the band I'm in is vastly experienced, but...

I disagree about the dictatorship thing. Certainly someone needs to do some coordination, so that everyone knows when practises are, what we're going to focus on each week, where we're playing etc. But as for how to play stuff (or what to play), that's got to be a majority decision. You've got to face it that your favourite songs are not always the favourites of other people - and vice versa, that songs you don't like may still be good ones to play.

If you find you're *never* in agreement with the other folks in the band, then you're probably in the wrong band. It sounds like this is the case for you.

Graham.