BS: Why does everyone hate America

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 11:23 PM

"the spirit of Mudcat................"

LOL!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 11:20 PM

Ahhh...now yer talkin'! I couldn't agree more. Well said, Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,not me but hey you
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 10:42 PM

Best uniforms where the ones worn by the VietCong. They proved uniforms are meaningless and that uniforms represent the arrogance and pomposity of a suppressing force. Passion of a cause is what it is all about.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 10:30 PM

You gotta be kidding. That is the best looking helmet in the history of modern warfare. The new American ones are kind of similar...good head and side protection.

I fully agree that it's okay to tweak Canada now and then. Matter of fact, it's fun. We can take it, eh? ;-D

We still have more beaver than you do, though. Don't forget that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,me
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 08:43 PM

As for German WWII uniforms - even as a kid I thought they were over the top - the kind of thing that would raise a snigger in our neighbourhood - does the word "pretentious" not come to mind? Not the helmets of course; they were just plain goofy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 08:34 PM

LarryK sez: I think its only fair to "tweak" Canada.

I sez: Agree completely. From time to time, Canadians need the mickey taken out of their self-righteousness vis-a-vis Americans. And, conversely, need the foolishness of their inferiority-complex pointed out.

That's speaking as a Canadian, folks. The comments don't apply to all of us, of course; but look at what makes the news.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 07:44 PM

Richard Bridge:

You have no idea how close I came to bringing a civil suit against the Gib. I had every legal requirement and incontravertible evidence to win the suit. In the final analysis it would not have been in the spirit of mudcat and could have caused more rancor than good.

Donald Arthur Hakman

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Shields Folk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 07:19 PM

Psychology of a soldier, Esprit de Corps.
A veteran of Naval Party 8901 told me that when the Argentinean commandos invaded Port Stanley they looked professional and they took them seriously.
"If you want to look "smart"," perhaps not smart but professional.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 07:09 PM

If you want to look "smart", I suppose the Germans were pretty fancy. But that's a very big "if"...

....................................
That incident Larry K mentioned, about the "jest" illustrates one reason why there's a fair amount of disdain directed at America around the world. The inward looking parochialism you get with big countries (and ssome small countries that like to think they are big, such as England), which leads to people knowing sod all about the world outside their borders tends to get up the noses of people living outside those borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Shields Folk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 06:19 PM

I think the British have redeemed themselves a bit. Desert Storm American uniforms, what were they about?

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 06:12 PM

No question about that, Shields. Tough, eh? I have to tell you that British WWII helmets and uniforms looked totally dorky, and American uniforms weren't much better. They really needed to give more thought to stuff like that. I mean, hell, the British used to have great looking uniforms in the days of the "thin red line", and so did the Americans back then.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Shields Folk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 05:03 PM

The Germans definitely had the nicest uniforms though.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 02:21 PM

Yeah. Maybe we need a new thread.

There was an Italian military theorist in the 20's who proposed that fleets of heavy bombers would become the decisive weapon of future wars. He was not 100% right about that, but the Americans and British decided to go that way, and it proved to be a good decision on their part. The Germans decided to go the way of a short range tactical airforce, and it worked very well until they were faced with bombing England into submission. They didn't really have the right planes for that job. They could also have well used a large strategic bomber force to hit the Russian industries deep in the interior of Russia.

Another mistake the Germans made was they fell too much in love with the concept of dive-bombing. While it resulted in superb tactical effectiveness with the Stuka and the Ju 88, it thoroughly screwed up the development of their one true heavy bomber, the He 177, and resulted in that plane becoming a disastrous failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 02:02 PM

To a certain extent, the Luftwaffe didn't need true long range bombers, when so much of Britian was within easy range of bases along the coast of France and Holland. A high proportion of our heavy industry, docks and population centres were within the range of smaller aircraft.

BTW, isn't it odd when a thread splits into talking about two different subjects at the same time?

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Peace
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 01:44 PM

"Why does everyone hate America"

Everyone doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 01:43 PM

I don't think I'd rate the Focke-Wulf Condor as a true strategic bomber, Dave, although it's debatable. The Condor was converted from a civil airliner to a bomber. It carried a rather small bomb load, but enough to sink merchant ships in the Atlantic with. It was quite vulnerable to fighters and AA guns, not being well armoured, and being full of easily ignitable fuel tanks in its fuselage.

The Condors were very successful for awhile, because they found a window of opportunity...their long range permitted them to attack Allied shipping far out at sea where the Allies could provide no fighter cover. That worked great until the Allies built a whole lot of small escort carriers and began providing air cover to the convoys. This rapidly reduced the effectiveness of both the Condor, and its partners, the U-boats.

Anyway, whether or not the Germans had strategic bombers (they did have a few)...they never had a large enough or effective enough force of them to be able to do strategic bombing on a scale that could seriously damage the Allies.

Only the British and Americans had such a strategic bomber force in that war.

The Japanese, by the way, also attempted to build strategic bombers. One of them made it to the prototype stage, but only four of these planes were built before the project was cancelled in June 1945. It was a good plane, somewhat superior to an American B-17 bomber but not as advanced in concept as the larger B-29s that ravaged Japan late in the war.   Here's a link:

Nakajima G8N Renzan "Rita"

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: NH Dave
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:01 PM

Stig, many of your comments are true, but while previously we only produced gas guzzling road giants, almost all of the American cars have shrunk by about a quarter of their previous size, and gas mileage is steadily rising. The exceptions are the Hummers and similar Sports Utility Vehicles. You mentioned that "- They have many fine dinosaur fossil locations" and I have to note that unfortunately one of the largest is our governing legislators in Washington, DC.

Others suggested that Germany habd't any strategic bombers, and one bomber was suggested in rebuttal. I would suggest that the Condor was a strategic bomber, although it lacked range to be effective as a trans-Atlantic bomber. Germany did develope the submarine tender or milk cow concept, where subs operating at the limits of their unfueled range were topped up and reloaded with weaponry by these special purpose cargo ships. This concept was further refined by technicians working under the direction of General LeMay who developed the mid-air refueling that had been toyed with in the thirties, using former bombers and cargo aircraft fitted with "flying booms", refueling "hoss" that could be guided into the midair refueling ports of bombers to increase their range. Today all fighters and bombers and some cargo planes and helicopters are equipped with air to air refueling capabilities of one sort or another. We can launch bombers or fighters from the middle of the US and fly them non-stop to almost any point in the world without landing to refuel. Most of our special mission helicopters are equipped with refueling probes to increase their range, or linger time over a position.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 11:18 AM

Little Hawk- I am delighted that you choose to live in Canada.   I think that everyone should choose to live in the country of their choice.   I have a number of relatives that live in Montreal and Toronto and love living in Canada.   (although their son has moved to the USA)

There are many people who immigrate to Canada.   It is a small tiny minisule fraction of the people who immigrate to the USA.   People in India don't go to Canada to start their computer company.   They go to the USA.   There was an srticle on the brain drain in Canada because many of the talented Candians chose to leave Canada and move to the USA where there is better economic oppportunity.   Only hollywood keeps threatening to move to Canada, but none of them ever do.    If only they would keep their word.

I think its only fair to "tweak" Canada.   I have been to 30 Canadian folk festivals and at every single one of them, someone has tweaked the USA from the stage.   I have been to 100 USA folk festivals, and I can't remember a single time when someone from the stage mentioned Canada.   The closest was when James Keelaghan played a Folk Project festival in NJ and said he was going to sing about canadian history and someone yelled out "who cares".   he got very angry, but the comment was more in jest than a comment about Canada.    I contend that 99% of americans couldn't name the canadian Prime Misister and that more Canadians know the US president than know the Canadian Prime Misister.

My wife and I are friendly with a number of Canadian performers.   We are hosting a house concert for the Sirens (from London Ontario) on June 18 at our house followed by a round robin music session.   If anyone is in Southeast Michigan on that day, please join us. (We have to keep Canada around until June 18 if for no other reason)

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 03:44 AM

Stig - You're right when you say, "The fact your country is run by people who have enshrined these principles as being central to the 'American Dream', the way of life all Americans aspire to."

But they also think that is the way of life that all people, everywhere, aspire too and if you don't, they will convince you that you do at the barrel of a gun.

Whats to like about a trigger-happy bully?

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Stu
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 03:17 AM

"Stig, you are being sarcastic when setting out your reasons to love America, right?"

. . . er, no I wasn't actually. But I can see why you might think I was.

Truth is, the Americans think there is only their way to live life, and that's it. If you don't believe in capitalism, moneterianism, materialism, Christianity and militarianism then you are wrong and need to be 'corrected'.

This arrogance, coupled with an extremely insular way of looking at the world is what rubs people up the wrong way. The fact your country is run by people who have enshrined these principles as being central to the 'American Dream', the way of life all Americans aspire to.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 02:27 AM

100 is the new 69

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 02:12 AM

99 is the new 100.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:41 AM

Stig, you are being sarcastic when setting out your reasons to love America, right?

But - having been an entertainment lawyer since the 70s, I have had to meet a lot of Americans - albeit from a certain set of sections of US society. I think I would have been unlikely to feel, as suggested below, that many Americans are self critical: quite the reverse. What is the general view?

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:33 PM

A trade situation which is logically 100% predictable, given the geographic situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:21 PM

LarryK - I'm much relieved you feel the need to keep us Canadians around, although I'm a little concerned about what might happen when you no longer feel that need ... We love you, we love you; please don't bomb us!

Anyway - a salient point you neglected: Canada is the U.S.'s biggest trading partner - that's two-way trade ...

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:16 PM

Heh! Yeah, nothing like self-congratulatory jingoism to stir up hatred, is there?

And then this stuff about "the Free World"...whatever the heck that is...

Was it a contribution to "freedom" when Iran's early attempts at establishing an elected democracy were crushed by Britain and American in the 50's and replaced with the Shah? Was it a contribution to "freedom" when Salvadore Allende's elected government was overthrown by a CIA-assisted military coupe?

"Freedom" is talked about a great deal by the USA, but seldom espoused in reality, because what the USA seeks is to control, not to free its subject populations wherever there are valuable strategic considerations. If control can be achieved through a cosmetically arranged "election", so be it. If control can be achieved through an invasion, so be it. If control can be achieved through death squads, dictators, and absolute tyrrany, so be it. It has nothing to do with freedom, it has only to do with control. Control of oil, control of commerce, control of markets, control of land and resources.

That's the empire game. Same as the previous empires. The British did it, the Russians did it, the Japanese did it, the Germans did it, the Austrians did it, the Spanish did it, the Italians did it, the Belgians did it, the French did it, and now the Americans are doing it (in concert with their allies, Israel and the UK).

It's Realpolitik. It's not about freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Desdemona
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:54 PM

And that, unfortunately, is exactly the kind of swaggering, tobbaco-chewing, John Wayne, here-comes-the-cavalry-over-the-hill-at-the-last-possible-moment (ESPECIALLY true in WWII; ask my mum, who is English and was there) bluster that MAKES people hate us.

While I'm unwilling to posit that EVERYONE hates America (although who knows what might have happened in the name of "freedom" whilst I was running my errands...), I'd have to say that those who do just might feel that way because we make it so goddamned easy.

~D

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:47 PM

Funny how well we usually agree on WWII, eh, teribus? ;-)

The Germans made one attempt at a strategic bomber, the Heinkel 177. It was hobbled by an insane 1938 design specification that it should be capable of dive-bombing! This was an asinine requirement to demand of a heavy bomber. It led to the airplane having to be strengthened structurally, which increased its weight, and to have four engines combined in tandem in only 2 engine nacelles, driving a huge four-bladed propellor (this reduced drag).

The result: WWII's most trouble-prone and unreliable large airplane. The He 177 tended to very frequently catch fire from engines overheating. More of them were lost to that cause than to any other cause. I believe they built about 1,000 of them. Most were used to bomb Russia, a few to bomb England, a few for anti-shipping strikes. They were interesting looking planes, but were anything but successful, and had little effect on the war except to waste Germany's resources in a futile effort.

Italy also had one heavy bomber, a Piaggio 4-engine plane, and a good one, but they didn't have enough of them to make any significant difference to the conflict in the Med. They used some to bomb Gibraltar on occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:22 PM

Sorry folks, when asked to come up with a plan for invading the UK in 1940, the conclusion of all three Staffs of the German Armed Forces plus the Combined General Staff was that it could not be done. Their best prediction was that they would possibly land the first wave who would then be cut off. Principal reason was because they had lost too much of their Navy during the invasion of Norway. Amphibious Operations take a great deal of build up and training, D-Day took four years and a lot of 'trial' runs.

As Little Hawk pointed out, British naval superiority in home waters meant that the UK could not be invaded, better command and control of our air defence meant that over the invasion area the Luftwaffe would not enjoy the air superiority they had had in Poland, Norway, Holland and in France. All German Plans relied on them capturing at least one secondary port on the south coast of England intact. The Allies found out how easy a task that was at Dieppe. The German Airforce was a Tactical Airforce, specifically equipped to support the Army, throughout the entire war they never had a Strategic Bomber Force, I don't believe that they ever had a single Strategic Bomber. The British, and latterly the Americans had them by the thousand. The Red Airforce was also by necessity developed as a tactical airforce to fight the Germans.

The "Second Happy Time" that stigweard refers to (January to May 1942) was countered by the Royal Navy 'lending' the US Navy experienced escort First Lieutenants. The counter-measures and tactics adopted was to impose a black-out and put a thin picket line of escorts off the coast a little further out to sea all hammering away on ASDIC. The German U-Boat crews had learned to have a damn sight more than a little respect for both RADAR and ASDIC, both killed U-Boats at night very effectively. All that had to be done was to keep them away during the hours of darkness, US air patrols kept the Merchant ships safe during the day.

Hate America, perish the thought, the free world will always be in your debt.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:08 PM

"contingent" not "contingency"

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:53 PM

Lots of good comments, stigweard... Just one point, though. You can't launch an invasion with U-Boats. ;-D

Larry K. - We Canadians love making fun of Canada. We always have. I think it's a very healthy sign in a country. I know all the songs you speak of, have seen them done live, and they are very good-humoured songs. They indicate, in fact, a love of Canada, with all its imperfections...just like you love a lazy old dog who smells bad when he gets wet and steals food off the kitchen counter.

The thing we most love to bitch about is the weather, of course. Who would not bitch about the weather in Canada? (well, I guess my friend Raptor wouldn't...he likes the cold and snow).

Our lack of military strength is not regretted much by most Canadians, because there are other things we'd much rather do with the money, like provide public health care. The only Canadians who are really bitter about it are those few (about 15%, I'd say) who wake up every morning and cry because we haven't been annexed by Uncle Sam yet and turned into the 51-60th states of Fortress Amerika. It is that contingency of fulminating paranoid nutcases that publishes the Toronto Sun, a newspaper that loves war, loves violence, and loves pictures of girls in tiny, tiny bikinis. Real classy guys, the Sun. The are the garbage heap of Canadian news.

It's fun making jokes about our military. I'm sure that many other smaller powers do the same thing. It's a grand tradition. I see no need to exchange it for the chest-beating insanity that drives great powers out to pillage and despoil their neighbours. You can have it.

Madonna and I are far from the only people to have willingly left the USA. Good God! There are many, many such people. You just need to adjust your blinders of perception so you can see a little wider field, that's all.

You mention "Freedom, prosperity, liberty, opportunity, human rights, capitalism" as reasons to come to the USA. Well, the freedoms and liberty are vanishing steadily, Larry, as the Bush administration legislates them quietly away. There are other places with more liberty and freedom than the USA. Canada is one of them. Millions of people also want to get into Canada. Why? For the same reasons you gave for wanting to get into the USA. Canada, however, does not share a long land border with Mexico...and it's a damned good thing! If we did, all of Latin American would be trying to get across it, and WE would have the USA's problem with millions of illegal immigrants.

Does it disturb you that I have lived in both Canada and the USA, and I like Canada a bit better in comparison? Tough. Get the doctor to give you some tranquilizers and accept the fact that there are some things in life you just can't change.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,closet francophile
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:49 PM

Comme le vieux ennemi n'est-ce-pas?

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:39 PM

There's a duty sometimes recommended to "Comfort the afflicted and afflict the compfortable".   And there's always a temptation to tease people with think skins.

Americans often tend to get seen as thin-skinned comfortable people. As xenophobia goes it's normally pretty mild when directed at Americans - real antagonisms tend to be directed at closer neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:59 AM

The reasons people "hate" Americans is because there seems to be a need around the world to be on one side or the other, and it is very chic to hate Americans. We now live in a polarized world and our opinions are formed by the media (as evidenced by the posts in this tread - most are nothing more than cut and pastes of other peoples voices.)

This "hate America' thing is nothing more than people trying to feel they are "in" and "hip" - peer pressure more than anything. Some people get a real thrill by standing on their soapbox and declaring what is wrong with this country and its people.

Wake the fuck up. The problems that you see today are not new. In the past we were always able to find some common ground and work to fix things, but today it is far easier to join one of the camps and just sit back and whine. It is time to turn off the Fox News, MSNBC, Pacifica, and NPR's of the world - or at least, spend some time checking out what others are saying - don't be so dependent on one source. As evidenced here in the thread, people have become set in their ways and let others do the thinking for them. Look at how many cliches have been dragged into this thread - evidence that many people have their heads in the wrong place.

People don't hate America, they are simply indoctrinated by the media and their peers and all have swallowed the Kool Aid. As soon as I see an original opinion posted here I will start to feel that there is hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:47 AM

Reasons people love America could be:

- New York is the most incredible city in the world
- They have many fine musicians
- They have many fine dinosaur fossil locations
- They have made some of the most intelligent and ground-breaking TV ever (Twin Peaks, Northern Exposure but NOT 24 or Lost)
- They put the rovers on Mars
- Jewish comedians
- many non-Jewish comedians
- Paul Auster
- Incredible countryside
- good food (albeit in too big portions)
- Apple Computers
- Star Wars
- Their museums are fantastic
- Contrary to popular belief, they can make good real ale
- Tom Waits

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:37 AM

Reasons people hate America could be:

- they torture people
- "renditioning" of people from other countries, often illegally by the CIA (and with the help of some countries we could mention)
- they flout the Geneva Convention
- they hold people without trial and access to their families or lawyers
- they are too stupid to realise Saddam had sod all to do with 9/11 and they are being fed a big fat lie
- they don't seem to realise Iraqi civilians are as innocent as all the people killed on 9/11 are, and their families and friends hurt too
- they don't realise people are more important than profit
- they don't care about the environment
- they use too much petrol (which they don't pay enough for) and oil in their hummers and caddies
- they have weapons of mass destruction but seem to think nobody else should have them
- most of them are fat
- They are deeply disrespectful to the original inhabitants of the continent and even though they admit they lied and cheated to them, refuse to give them their land back (a problem with many nations run predominately by white people)
- they say they haate George Bush but still voted him back in
- They are letting the religious extremist right into power via the back door
- they love guns and violence (just look at their films), let everyone have one, then wonder why massacres like Columbine happen
- They invented Disney

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:19 AM

Everyone in the worlds hates America.   That is why millions of people each year risk their lives to come here illegally, while millions more come here legally.    Other than Little Hawk and Madonna (I dare any one else to put the two of them in the same sentence) I don't know anyone who has left America for another country.

So why do millions come here when they hate America?   Freedom, prosperity, liberty, opportunity, human rights, capitalism-just to name a few.

Sorry- but Canada has a giant inferiority complex on its sholder when it comes to America.   Thats not just my opinions.   Listen to the words of Canadian Folk Singers.   Tanglefoot does a song about American Radio and introduces it by saying that Canadians have an inferiority complex toward the USA and its America's fault.   The Arrogant Worms "We barely have an army" Marie Lynn Hammond "like the dollar we keep falling in Canadian Love".   

87% of Canadas exports are to the USA.   If that decreased, Canada economy would croak.   America needs Canada as well.   Right now we get 50% of Canada's natural gas and Canada is the USA's biggest supplier of Oil. There are huge oil deposits in the tar flats that we will purchase.   Therefore, we need to keep Canada around- inferiority complex and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,robomatic
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 10:03 AM

Ah, there is way too much material in this thread, and it's all a bit jumbled up, each of us is putting forth his or her own interpretations mixed in with just enough inaccuracies to keep the thread going. . .
I think we dispensed with the idea that everyone hates America. I think there has been more than enough material to establish that there are a lot of good reasons for being very frustrated with America from all sides including the inside!

Just recently finished an interesting book, "The Poisonwood Bible" by Barbara Kingsolver. She starts with some very ill-prepared American missionaries to The Congo, then follows them through the Patrice Lumumba period, where heavy involvement by foreign business interests assisted in derailing an attempt at starting an African Democracy. Iranians of today have reason to be distrustful of the United States after an outright CIA (and British) subversion of their Democratic aspirations in the mid 50's.

Part of the American side of things was that we felt we were fighting a global World War against International Communism, which in fact we were. We didn't always play our hand very well, and we were ourselves subverted, by thinking we should support the French against Communism in Indochina, and the British against Communism in the Middle East.

I'd say the saving grace of Americans, besides the fact that we're so smart and good-looking, is the heavy amount of self-criticism we can give ourselves.

We are in a new situation now, we are the lone 'Superpower'. We have fewer excuses for our inaccuracies and excesses. What will change that situation is that the world has grown into a Superpower its own self. The internet has enabled the broad release of way more information than in fact exists. Due to enough large healthy, increasingly educated populations, there is plenty of young labor across the world.

Thanks in one way to George W. Bush (of whom I'm NOT a fan), a deliberate attempt is being made to counter some great evils in the world. Thanks in another way to 'W', the United States is expending so much largesse on unremunerative projects that its status as a World Superpower will definitely be diminished sooner rather than later.

So in an intersting way, we'll ALL get what we want at some level.

In the end, efficiency will be rewarded, and we will not necessarily have to learn Chinese, but we'll dance to their music.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 08:40 AM

Kendall has a number of stories about Americans he has encountered or, at one time' travelled with in the UK. They were what he termed 'ugly Americans', loud, seemingly uneducated in the ways of the world, totally insular in their outlook and treating their host country as purely being there for their convenience.

Unfortunately these are the type of tourists that stick out like a sore thumb and who are remembered long after they have returned to their own country. along with the actions of the American politicians over the past number of years and the spreading of the commercial culture - think Macdonalds and a lot of the film and television programmes - a good case could be made by those with no other exposure to the American culture for a dislike of all things American.

Mind you, the English, in particular, have a very poor reputation in some parts of Europe for their bad behaviour when on holiday and the Germans have a bad rep with a lot of Brits......

I think every one needs a cat to kick and the Yanks just happen to be in that position right now. Luckily, as a result of the Mudcat, most of us here know different, don't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 03:43 AM

"Germany wouldn't have been able to do much more on the East coast, even if they'd made it all"

But they did make it. In January 1942 46 allied merchant ships had been sunk off the American coast, a total of 196,243 tons of ships and supplies.

American coastal towns were not subject to blackouts, and U-boat commanders would wait on the seabed during the day, and surface at night where they targeted the sihouettes of the passing ships, most of which were heading unescorted up the coast to join the north Atlantic convoys.

All in all, some 377 ships were sunk between January and May 1942 off the eastern seaboard of the US. So they did a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:33 AM

To come back to the point, it is because the most readily recognisable types of behaviour as "American behaviour" are like Martin Gibson, or Bush.

Bush at least has the sense to recognise that he needs lawyers. I do look forward to the time that Gobson needs one.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:23 AM

Yes, I follow your reasoning on that, Purple Fox. I think, though, that Hitler's fantasies were generally a world apart from the strategic realities of the situation, and were highly unlikely to ever have come about...specially the scenario you suggest.

It's curious that although the Germans had made the first attempts in the direction of research that could have led to nuclear weapons, Hitler himself seems to have shown very little interest in the atomic project. Accordingly, it was not pressed with much emphasis or effectiveness. Their jet project, likeways, was delayed by a couple of years through foolish decisions....they thought the war would be over quite soon, so no need to push it, because the Me 109 was enough to win the air war by itself! (they expected England to "see reason" after the Fall of France, and negotiate a ceasefire in a few months...not surrender. They then expected to have a free hand to invade not England, but Russia.)

They had the V-2 rocket by late '44, a true ballistic missile. It was capable of hitting targets in southern England, but only with a conventional warhead. They might have developed a rocket capable of reaching the USA in a few more years...maybe...but Hitler's main effort was always in the East...Russia...and fighting the Russians was really all Germany could handle in that war, and there was no guarantee of victory there either. Russia alone could well exhaust the resources of the Reich.

The situation with atomic bombs in the early years was...you could only afford to make a few of them. The USA had exactly 2 ready to drop on Japan in August '45. That was all they had. Period. How many could the Germans have had ready, even supposing they had been able to conquer Russia and England and be free for such a huge national effort directed elsewhere? Could they have managed to make 2 or 3 bombs? Maybe. What chance that the USA would have had the same number of A-bombs by then or more? Germany is a small country, geographically speaking, the USA is enormous. The Americans had the long range bombers and the Navy to launch effective across-ocean attacks invasions and attacks. The Germans didn't.

I believe that your scenario is very unlikely to have been achievable at all...but if we assume it could have happened, I would see it this way: Germany could have damaged the USA with 2 or 3 A-bomb hits, yes. The USA could have effectively ruined most of central Germany with 2 or 3 in return.

So again, I see the Americans holding the winning hand....regardless.

You cannot win a war against the USA with 2 or 3 atomic bombs. The USA is simply too big for that. You could win a war against Hitler with 2 or 3. Just make sure one lands on Berlin.

Hitler spent a lot of time trying to convince the Germans and the rest of the world that they were supermen. Western paranoia about the incredible things the Nazis might have done "if" seems, ironically, to measure them by the same yardstick! ;-D

They were in no position to challenge the combined might of Russia, the UK, and America. With stunningly fine leadership and a whole lot of serious blundering by the Allies the Germans might have won WWII. I'll grant that. But with stunningly fine leadership they would never even have gotten into that idiotic war...

So it's a moot point, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:33 AM

Germany was (with Britain) world leader in development of advanced flight (ie Jet aircraft) it was the undisputed leader in development of rocket artillery & was (at that time) the only country doing groundwork into the development of Nuclear Weapons.
As early as 1939 Hitler was openly dismissing the U.S.A. as "Half Judaized half Negrized" in his distorted world view that legitimated Genocide.
Rocket launched Nuclear attacks on American cities would have made invasion unnecessary.
Had Britain fallen this is almost certainly what would have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:08 AM

Absolutely, thurg. Submarines travel secretly, unseen (they hope), and they go as far as their range permits. Their submarines went up the St Lawrence, ours went as far as Tokyo Bay. They put a few people ashore for espionage and sabotage purposes. We did the same on their shores with commandos and spies here and there.

None of that in any way resembles an invasion, or the capability of mounting an invasion.

Seaborne invasions aren't clandestine landings of a few men at night. They are a full frontal assault by a massive amphibious force involving infantry, armour, major air cover and a very large fleet.

This the Germans could not do to North America. Not even vaguely possible. They didn't have a big enough navy to do it. They had no aircraft carriers to provide air support, and the USA was much too far away for the Luftwaffe to take part in any such operation. Nor did the Japanese have the strength to invade the West Coast. No chance. They would have needed to move at least half a million men across the entire Pacific to do it with any hope of success. Their incursions in the Aleutian Islands were a sideshow, mostly occuring as a side effect of the botched Midway operation. They had sent minor forces up to the Aleutians to supposedly mislead and misdirect American forces in regards to the main attack on Midway. They were unaware that the Americans had broken their code and knew they were going to Midway. When the Midway operation failed utterly, the Japanese hung on to a couple of little islands in the Aleutians, mostly just because they were already there. It was a useless piece of real estate, but they figured it might tie down some American forces for awhile to keep a Japanese garrison or two active there, and it did that.

The only major power that Germany might have been able to invade amphibiously was the UK...given that the Channel is only a few miles wide. Still, it would have been very tough, because the British Navy had the German Navy outnumbered by about 8 to 1 or something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:40 AM

A point that was neglected in some post 'way up the thread, having to do with imagined German invasion of North America: during the war, German U-boats were active in the ST. Lawrence River, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, around Newfoundland, and all along the northeastern coast of the continent, sinking ships and occasionally putting men ashore. FWIW.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:18 AM

The Germans are still reading German. They lost.

The Japanese are also still reading Japanese, despite losing.

(this isn't because we're nice guys and the Germans and Japanese aren't...it's because culture is a very powerful thing, and it outlasts temporary storms and setbacks like lost wars)

The French continued speaking French, reading French, and writing French without a moment's hesitation during the entire German military occupation of France from 1940 to late '44. I recall no German iniative to alter that fact, and none could have achieved its purpose.

The French in Quebec are still speaking and reading French, despite having lost to English rule in the mid-1700's!

I think my point is made.

This cliche crap about us all reading and speaking German if our parents or grandparents had lost the war may sound good, but it's total and absolute BS in my opinion. That won't stop people from saying it for another fifty years, however...unless we have a Third World War. Then their minds will be occupied with some new monster to build mythology upon...but not the Germans this time, I don't think. Nope, someone else will have to be appointed as the official "most evil nation of all time" soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: NH Dave
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 11:36 PM

I recently saw a T-shirt that backs one of the previous points. It read, "If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a military veteran.

   Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 08:04 PM

Interesting points, Foolestroupe. The cracking of both the German and Japanese military codes in the war was crucial to Allied victory. Funny that neither one of them caught on to what was happening... (Hitler eventually began to suspect it, but far too late. That's why he insisted on complete radio silence prior to the Ardennes offensive/Battle of the Bulge in Dec 44. They achieved surprise that time, but by then it was about 3 years too late to make any real difference in the outcome.)

I would suggest that it was not necessary for the Germans to physically occupy the British Isles in the '40s in order to technically win a war with England. They would merely have had to win big enough in the Med, North Africa, and the Middle East, and hurt the British Empire economy sufficiently to get the British to talk peace terms....not a surrender...just a cessation of Anglo-German hostilities and a negotiated agreement on what to do next in western Europe and the Med, etc. That, I believe, they could have arranged, because the UK is nothing if not 100% pragmatic when it comes to insoluble dilemmas such as wars that have become unwinnable. They negotiated an end to the American revolution, after all. They have pulled in their horns after other military fiascos that didn't go well.

Given the fact that Hitler envisioned the British as his natural allies, I think he would have been quite eager to negotiate a "live and let live" mutual arrangement and not invade at all...as long as it appeared feasible.

His next hope would then have been to get the British onside to help him fight Russia. And it's just possible he might have succeeded in that, specially if the British were offered some territorial gains out of it...say moving up from India into Afghanistan and southern Russia.

That would have realized Hitler's dream of Germans and Anglos running the world.

The British are practical people. They would have done first what was necessary to survive....then the next logical thing that might restore their strength and influence on the world scene as soon as possible. If that had meant working with Germany in the 40s, they would have done it, in my opinion. Maybe Churchill would not have, but his successor would have. Churchill would have gotten sacked in such a case.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 07:32 PM

"I get the impression that Hitler never really wanted a war with the English at all, but rather hoped they would become his allies against Communist Russia. His real ambitions lay in the East. That was where he sought great territorial gains...grain, oil, and "living room" for the population of the "thousand-year Reich". "

Exactly what Mein Kampf and his other outpourings said.


"The crucial theatre was North Africa, in my opinion. If they had taken it"

They had very little chance of doing that with the German Enigma Code being cracked - that's what defeated Rommel, not Monty! The problem was that the British could not sink ALL the African Supply Convoys, for fear of the Germans suspecting the code was cracked.

If Britain had gone under earlier, it is unlikely that the US would have had the Enigma code too - unless Bletchley managed to hide that the US had been given the Enigma secret, and the US were able to summon up a similar cracking effort - including the 'invention of automatic computing devices'. Also the Atlantic would mean that fewer of the German radio transmissions would be intercepted, giving the crackers much less to work on.

Of course the sort of 'resistance' problems, including the use of 'disruptive terrorists tactics' as used by the French, would have been a real pain for the Germans trying to exercise complete control over such a large area as continental Britain, there was Scotland, and god help us - Ireland! This would have chewed up large numbers of troops, which would have seriously affected the Russian Campaign (Hitler was a fool, not an idiot!), even if there had been competent military leadership at the very top - the refusal time and time again to allow troops to fall back and regroup caused huge German losses for no practical military gain, but only propaganda purposes - like some of Georgie Boy's brilliant leadership.

Without the 'floating base' of Britain, European Invasion would have been damn near impossible without some other nearby place, or some method of taking Britain as a staging post first - we might STILL be fighting the war, or now sprechen Deutsch.

Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 05:03 PM

Be Blessed LH.