BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies

Subject: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:36 PM

I have often mentioned that once upon a time I was a hippie and was kind of proud of it. Long hair, enjoyed a good dube, hated the establishment, didn't trust older people, all that crap.

Gradually I grew up and actually got happier in life as common sense prevailed and real life experiences evolved into wisdom.

Is Mudcat the Sargasso Sea of old hippies?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:37 PM

I have to ask: Is there lots of weed in the Sargasso Sea?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:38 PM

seaweed. wet and will not burn.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:40 PM

Oh.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: GUEST,Minstrel of the Dawn
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:47 PM

No. That's only your preconceived notion.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:49 PM

Gotta love that name, Guest. From an old Lightfoot song.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:49 PM

Just look at the thread titles--"Mudcat's Old Hippies" "and it is beautiful". Pure coincidence?
Hey man, feel the love.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:52 PM

Of course now we have "Mudcat's Old Hippies" "Serious Advice Needed". But just wait til it's "Hillary Clinton: the best thing since..." "Mudcat's Old Hippies"

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:52 PM

fuck that. I thought it was "menstrual of the dawn." Isn't that an old Gordon Clubfoot song?

Uh Oh, time for Ron to get offended and blow chunks in his shorts.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: GUEST,Minstrel of the Dawn
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:55 PM

The Lord God said, "Let there be light!"

And Martin Gibson squinted and screamed, "TURN IT OFF!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:57 PM

GORDON LIGHTFOOT Song Lyrics

Minstrel Of The Dawn
(From the album "IF YOU COULD READ MY MIND")

The minstrel of the dawn is here
To make you laugh and bend your ear
Up the steps you'll hear him climb
All full of thoughts, all full of rhymes
Listen to the pictures flow
Across the room into your mind they go
Listen to the strings
They jangle and dangle
While the old guitar rings
The minstrel of the dawn is he
Not too wise but oh so free
He'll talk of life out on the street
He'll play it sad and say it sweet
Look into his shining face
Of lonelines you'll always find a trace
Just like me and you
He's tryin' to get into things
More happy than blue

A minstrel of the changin' tide
He'll ask for nothing but his pride
Just sit him down upon that chair
Go fetch some wine and set it there
Listen to the pictures flow
Across the room into your mind they go
Listen to the strings
They jangle and dangle
While the old guitar rings

A minstrel of the dawn is near
Just like a step 'n fetchit here
He's like an old time troubador
Just wanting life and nothing more
Look into his shining eyes
And if you see a ghost don't be surprised
Like me and you
He's tryin' to get into things
More happy than blue

The minstrel boy will understand
He holds a promise in his hand
He talks of better days ahead
And by his words your fortune's read
Listen to the pictures flow
Across the room into your mind they go
Listen to the strings
They jangle and dangle
While the old guitar rings

The minstrel of the dawn is gone
I hope he'll call before too long
And if you meet him you must be
The victim of his minstrelsy
He'll sing for you a song
The minstrel of the dawn

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:02 AM

So "Martin", I thought you were going to stay out where the air is breathable.   But if you're happier down there, all we want is your happiness. You can take the boy out of the sewer but...

But the wayward wind (of the sewer) is a restless wind--a restless wind, that yearns to wander. And he was born the next of kin, the next of kin to the wayward wind (of the sewer).

Hey, now it's a music thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:02 AM

That's not what I said, Menstrual. Why don't you just go somewhere and clot?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:03 AM

That song was made famous by Gogi Grant, Ron. Now it's a music thread with an expert in it.

and if you can't breathe, get out of the kitchen. Or something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:03 AM

Sleep tight, "Martin"--and breathe deep.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:05 AM

Have your sound on . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:05 AM

"Breathe deep. The gathering gloom.............."
         .........The Moody blues

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:11 AM

End that sentence with a 'period' !

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:13 AM

Good one! I mean    Good one.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:21 AM

Once upon a time I was a hippie too (sort of) and was very of proud of it. Had very long hair, but did no drugs whatsoever, being a resolute noncomformist by nature, hated the establishment, didn't trust older people, all that crap.

Now I trust older people, still hate the establishment, still have long hair, am still thin, and still don't do drugs.

Good idea for a thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: MBSLynne
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:06 AM

I am still a hippy...and 'old' is a state of mind! I still hate the establishment. I still have long hair...but then I'm a woman so it's not quite the same. I still get spaced out on peace and love and all that stuff. I don't do drugs and never have. Don't need them cos peace and love are mind-blowing enough without. I still get wound up by all the wars and nasties that happen in the world when everyone should be being nice to each other. My protesting energies are now more focused into environmental issues but I see that as a natural progression.

Lately, I've been wondering where all the other hippies had gone. So many seem to have turned into capitalist establishment figures. I think you are right Martin...a lot of the old hippies can be found on Mudcat. Not sure about the Sargasso Sea bit though.

Oh...and I'm STILL proud of being a hippy!

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:10 AM

Yes it is! There weren't any hippies up here in the frozen North of England, kaftans were a bit thin on the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:21 AM

Beg to differ FT implausible though it seems Jimi Hendrix lived in Heaton for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:30 AM

Really? Did he get lost on his way to Hull??

"They came to the revolution in their daddy's cars" - John Sebastian on Woodstock

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:34 AM

This was when he was establishing himself in Britain.
I think that Having Chas Chandler as a manager would explain it.
"'Scuse me while I kiss the sky,pet."

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Gedpipes
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:38 AM

Martin Gibson - welcome back to the enlightened chat site

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Bird Flu
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:43 AM

LSD was brilliant - took the stuff a couple of hundred times between 1971 and 1976. Sunshine, black, pink, green microdots,strawberry fields, blue cheer, purple haze, purple pyramids - blimey the stuff was coming out of my ears!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:12 AM

I wanted to be a hippy, but I never really had the figure for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Crystal
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:24 AM

Oi What about us YOUNG Hippies?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:39 AM

Long grey hair is 'shameless'. Bald is beautiful. Oh yeh, Jimi Hendrix once stayed at a guest house in Pearson Park, Hull.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 07:09 AM

Hey those purple velvet loons and tie-dye are still perfectly wearable. Lots of us are still young hippies at heart, its just the outside thats got older, greyer and more "comfortable"

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 07:13 AM

It was 30 years ago this week that the Sex Pistols first hit our ears (literally) and the Punk scene exploded..... Half those middle aged bank managers with mortgages, pension plans and Vovlo Estates used to be screaming, puking, spiky green haired pogo-dancing yobs....

I'm still trying to be a hippy.... still look like a mobile camping shop when wearing a kaftan and Prozac doesn't have the same effect as other drugs.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: MBSLynne
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 07:15 AM

I find a lot of old hippies have sold out to the establishment though. They don't seem to have the drive to protest about a lot of things any more. Or is it that the Angry Young Men turned into Grumpy Old Men?

For me, time stopped when they put the flowers in the barrels of the guns....

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: kendall
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 07:30 AM

I was never a hippy. Irrisponsible lay abouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 07:31 AM

Not so much hip and groovy as hip replacement now then?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 07:55 AM

I was never a hippy. Never did drugs. Worked for a living. I am making it up for it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: MaineDog
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 08:28 AM

To be a hippie seemed like a good idea at the time, so I began to let my hair grow. By the time it seemed long enough, the movement had gone bad imo . I have heard of old hippies being called Mudpies which I suppose is what you get when you squash a Mudcat.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 08:30 AM

OLD?!?!?!?!?!?!

We got OLD?!?!?!?!?!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 08:35 AM

Old hippie and proud of it. Against war. IN favor of love. Peace, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: MaineDog
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 08:42 AM

Those of us who didn't OD and otherwise survived did, in fact grow older.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 08:51 AM

The best hippies were always the old hippies, and that's still true. I always used to say "Never trust anyone under thirty".

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Desdemona
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 08:57 AM

By "old", do we mean "former", "elderly" or both?!

~D

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: jacqui.c
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 08:58 AM

I was too busy having babies at too early an age to get involved then. Like Mary I'm making up for it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Alba
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:07 AM

I see nothing wrong whatsoever will being labelled a Hippie. The 'Old" bit of the remark though MG...hey just steady on there.. that's just down right offensive..lol

I would however be deeply offended is someone called me a conformist or a conservative or pro - war or anti- Love or anti - nature...

which brings me, rather oddly, to the references about Women's Menstrual Cycles.

I find it fascinating that this naturally occuring process of a Women's body would be somehow..insulting, seen as dirty in a schoolyard sense, or a no go area of discussion. Anywhere.

Damn it all to hell MG, if you would like to take my monthly period on I will glady give it to you...with a box of free tampons ( just let me know your width size requirements:)

Hey man, just compose a short essay on why you would be worthy of such a gift.

Jude: alias, Earth child /Cosmic Sister.


( Still a Hippy after all these Years..maybe...oh let's just call me a work in progress. Even after all this time I still have not attained that complete freedom that the Hippie movement aspires to. Hippyism is a much better goal than say attaining conformism in my book. Who would want to to be a rich Sheep! Now to mantain that state of mind may require a lot of drugs in my case... bahhhha):>)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:08 AM

Having visited Glastonbury recently, I can say there's a lot still around there! Cambridge used to be full of 'em as well.

RtS
(old skiffler)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:23 AM

Never was a "Hippy," if you define Hippy as having long hair (many didn't), turned on to drugs (not all did) and believed in "Free" love. If you define Hippy as being able to think for myself, having an inquisitive, open mind and being sceptical about policians and how accurate the news is as it's reported, then I was a "Hippy" and hope that I always will be. I WAS at the first Woodstock, but didn't overdose on drugs or have wild sex in a Volkswagon bus with a fifteen year old runaway. I actually came to hear the music.

Now that we've all gotten older and most of us are broader of beam, I suspect many of us have gotten a little "hippier."

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:29 AM

I WAS at the first Woodstock, but didn't ...have wild sex in a Volkswagon bus with a fifteen year old runaway. I actually came to hear the music.


Gee, Jerry, you could have done both.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:38 AM

Surely the original Wandering Menstrual was Tam Paxton?

Giok

[Ex Hippie. Growing older disgracefully]

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:53 AM

"Growing older disgracefully"

That pun would incline me to agree with that statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:04 AM

Gosh, Martin, what happened to toleration or indeed peace love and understanding?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Arne
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:22 AM

You mean like this?

;-)

I do have to spend a little less time schooling "Martin", Teribus, and BB, and work a bit on updating the web pages. My serious stuff is here (along with some better pics)...

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:24 AM

Some people define themselves by who they love: 0thers define themselves by who they hate.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:55 AM

Surely there are another two categories Jerry
The people that define themselves by who loves them:
The others who define themselves by who hates them:
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:53 PM

"Some people define themselves by who they love: 0thers define themselves by who they hate."

Brilliant statement, Jerry. And so true. Matter of fact, the latter case is what causes just about all the trouble in the word. (and on this forum)

Regarding hippies and drugs...I always thought that the drug craze was the primary thing that misdirected and wrecked the youth movement, and I also think the establishment planned it that way. The CIA moves drugs, billions of dollars worth of drugs annually, from the Third World direct to Mainstreet, USA. The laundered money keeps the USA solvent. It's been happening that way since quite awhile before the hippies were ever seen, and it's happening on a far larger scale now. The 2 biggest sources of illegal drugs for the CIA are Afghanistan and Colombia.

I loved the youth movement at the time, but I was never in favour of the drug culture. It was a very big mistake, and it wasted a lot of lives. You can't take chemical shortcuts to enlightenment without paying a heavy price for it, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:01 PM

There is another catagory -people who worry way too much about how others define them.   

The problem I had with "hippies" back in the day was that they were the most conformist group of all! If you did not have long hair you were distrusted. If you did not smoke pot, you were distrusted. If you did not listen to the music of the minute, you were distrusted. If you shared an opinion other than the prevailing group and media inspired voice, you were not distrusted.   Hippies were the largest clic of all-time.

I am 48 years old, I have long hair, I do not do drugs, I have my own thoughts. I refused to let my life be defined by a sterotype and fit into someone elses preconceived notions.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:07 PM

That's exactly the problem I had with hippies, Ron! At first I was starry-eyed in my idealism about the movement. After a few years I reached the point of just being broken-hearted about the conformist hypocrisy of it all. I began to feel contempt for most of the people in the hippy mainstream...precisely because of the unthinking conformity and prejudice you allude to.

Being the guy who never smoked either dope or cigarettes and never got drunk either, I was always somewhat the odd man out among those young fools.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:22 PM

I was in the same boat LH. I never smoked, drank on occasion but nothing seriously, wore my hair a reasonable length, and was made to feel "different". Hippies were not the peace and love image that they tried to make themselves out to be. The media created the image and the blind followers fell in line. As soon as Vietnam ended and the threats to their own well-being ended, they joined the mainstream.   It was an easy out and a way to avoid the problems of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:33 PM

Yup, pretty much the way I saw them too, Ron. I'll say this, though, among the hippies were a few really sweet, gentle, lovely people. Those individuals I value having known. It just goes to show that in any general group of people at any given time you can find a few gems.

I'll say this too...the hippy movement was a hell of a lot more appealing (at least to me) than the punk movement that followed it. ;-P (or the rap and hip-hop stuff now, God knows)

I find starry-eyed idealism and lyrical romanticism much preferable to self-hatred, deliberate ugliness and self-destructive nihilism, or the idealization of "gangsta" culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:34 PM

Listen to the pictures flow
Across the room into your mind they go.
Listen to the strings.
They jangle and dangle
While the old guitar rings.

That's a really beautiful piece of writing. Great images. Thanks, Gordon, for writing it in the first place, and thanks, Peace for posting the words. And thanks to the Minstrel of the Dawn for reminding us of it.

Well do I remember in the mid-Sixties, all those high school kids hanging around the coffeehouses trying to be cool and trying their damnedest to be hippies. Although most of the kids were nice enough, some of them were real pains in the ass. They were often disappointed because we weren't all sitting around smoking dope (that they could try to buy or bum). They were so incredibly clueless!

I never was a hippie, even though some of the kids thought I was because I played the guitar and sang folk songs. Being immature, they were given to thinking in stereotypes. I note that there are still a few of those kids (at least one of the pain-in-the-ass variety) still around these days. They're older now, but in all that time, they haven't grown up very much.

I was that awkward age. I was too young to be a Beatnik and too old to be a hippie. I never smoked dope, shot up, snorted coke, or dropped acid. I did drink unhealthy amounts of coffee. Also an occasional schooner of beer. I enjoyed a little good wine with dinner from time to time, and still do; and although I smoked like a chimney (tobacco), I quit twenty-eight years ago. I was all in favor of civil rights and took a dim view of the Vietnam War, but other than that, I was fairly conservative back then. I've seen a lot more of the world and I've matured a lot since those days.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:59 PM

I do agree with you LH. In fact, most of the "hippies" that stuck it out and are still with us are some of the kindest and considerate people I know. I also think that they are the true noncomformists and live their lives to meet their own standards, not some preconceived notion of how they should behave.

I guess it was a bandwagon thing, or maybe because I came "of age" at the tail end of the hippie movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Kaleea
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:01 PM

Didn't inhale then, or pop pills. Still don't inhale, but I pop arthritis pills. I'm still fangerpickin' songs on my old 1964 J-45, but some of them are the way-back-then-hated-Bluegrass, cause-everybody-else-only-listens-to-rock, so-I-had-to-hate-it-too, cause-we-were-all-nonconformists kind of songs. I wear tie died T shirts alot. Sandals most of the time, too. Course, in San Diego most people wear sandals.
If today is the first day of the rest of your life, have a nice day, man.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:02 PM

Here's an ol' hippie for ya.

. . .and another,

. . and another.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Brass Monkey
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:03 PM

I thought a hippie was something that held your leggie on. I now feel completely bewildered and feel my leggies have no support in this new technological age. When are you lot going to start the revolution?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:04 PM

Just a bunch of ol' useless folks who'll never change nothin; if y'ask me.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:08 PM

Sorry, Brass Monkey--I cross posted with ya.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:04 PM

I dunno about Bluegrass being "hated", but some of the most enjoyable music I can remember from those 3 Days at Woodstock was old timey with the Hog Farmers after we'd closed down passing out the free food.

I think hippies back in England tended to be a different variety from Americans thiough - not so much butterflies as squirrels, (turning into badgers as they grew older).
.........................

On tonight's TV:

The Dark Side of Hippos... a fat and cuddly vegetarian or a fearsome and aggressive killer? This eye-opening documentary special reveals a shocking side to these almost cartoon-like creatures...

Violence is central to hippo society – female hippos are hugely protective mothers as males often kill their young, and with only one in 10 males ever getting the chance to mate, fights between males are often to the death. The programme features survivors of hippo attacks and investigates what brings out the dark side of hippos.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:32 PM

Poster I saw once that I wish I had:

Two almost sexless entities in tie-died clothes & fringed jackets, beads, long hair and wisps of smoke curling around encounter 'standard' person:

Standard person: "What's going on?"
Long haired entities: "We're fighting the rising tide of conformity!"
Standard person: "What's all this then?"
Entities: "This is our uniform."

----------------------------------------------------------------

I knew 'hippies'...even met Alan Ginsberg in a poetry reading/coffee house..*grin*....but was too busy to study how to be one. (And when I was in Lawrence, Kansas, the Attorney General of the state, Vern Miller, raided the hippies and tear-gassed them...right up the street from my house. I always thought I had made the right choice about who to look like.)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 05:38 PM

You guys who are in your late forties really missed the so called "hippie movement". Your image of "hippies" seems to have been formed by the shop-worn media stereotype and by the movement's detritus. Events such as Altamont, the Manson murders and the growing extremism of political movements such as the Black Panthers and the Weather Underground really spelled the end of the peace and love, flowers in your hair, peace brother, stuff. By 1970 people in the "movement" had either gone the back-to-the-land route, got involved in radical politics or social change movements or got jobs and "rejoined" society. Most who were living the "hippie" lifestyle by this time were Johnny-come-latelys who thought that the "movement" was what was portrayed in the media so they assumed the sex, drugs and rock-and-roll part of it without any of the "spiritual" aspects such as community, self discovery and the celebration of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:08 PM

I would consider Alan Ginsberg as being more in the Beat Movement than a hippie. This included poets and writers like Ferlinghetti, Kerouac, Burroughs, and a whole bunch of others. They might be just a bit ticked off to be lumped in with hippies, who followed a few years after.

Offhand, I can't really think of any hippie poets and writers, at least none who were up the standards of the previously mentioned Beats.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:20 PM

Yes, I came to the hippie movement too late to enjoy those early innocent days of the "summer of love". The whole thing had turned kind of dark by 1968, and I got into it beginning around '69. A lot of bad stuff had happened by then, and it just got worse after that. Most of the people were Johnny-come-latelys, as you say, and much of the optimism had vanished. Matter of fact, it was becoming a sort of undeclared war mentality...with disaffected youngsters on one side, the police, the army, and Nixon on the other.

I got hassled by police many times because of the long hair and general appearnance, but they were Toronto cops, so they didn't beat me up, at least. Just bothered me.

I wore a lot of leather and denim, fringed jackets, wide leather belt, and a leather hat, and Frye boots, but never the tie-dyed stuff or the beads.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: bobad
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:32 PM

"I wore a lot of leather and denim, fringed jackets, wide leather belt, and a leather hat, and Frye boots,"

Well you were just asking for it, weren't you? (smiley face)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 07:02 PM

Yeah. ;-P There was a long list of frustrated Toronto cops who could not succeed in finding any dope on me or any record of illicit activities, despite the fact that I apparently fit the visual profile for "druggie" in their handbook. As my retired friend Roger (former RCMP officer) says: "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, it IS a duck." And I grin and say back to him..."Not always, Roger."

Thank God I did not live in a place with cops corrupt enough to plant drugs on me and then prosecute or it could have messed up my whole life.

That has been known to happen in a few places to more than a few people.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 07:04 PM

well Don, Ginsberg hung around way beyond the Beat movement... and associated with LOTS of folks. He might not have liked any labels, but from talking to him and watching what he did and where he went for a couple of weeks, it seemed like he kinda liked 'helping' those who were tweaking the establishment.

It was a fascinating time!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 07:15 PM

I betcha!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 07:22 PM

and wow....here is a very detailed account of all the events I referred to. I knew about half of the folks mentioned in the article, and was a member of the Philosophy club, Dialectica, that invited Ginsberg to speak. Oh, we had fun tweaking the English Dept.!

Ginsberg, as I have mentioned before when his name came up, was amazing in that when someone was speaking, he gave them his entire attention. I never met anyone, before or since, who made me feel so listened to.

And during that 'reading', he was masterful.....starting slowly and innocuously and letting Dr. Sowards relax....then gradually, like slowly heating a kettle with a frog in it, he 'raised the heat' until by the end, he was reading and saying anything and there was no perceptable place to have stepped in and stopped him.


say....maybe I was an honarary hippie for awhile there...☺

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 08:40 PM

First of all, I am an "Old Hippie".... Who cares??? Well other old hippies do and we know who we are...

Lynne knows and GUEST 8:35 am knows...

Martin was **never** a hippie... Hippie is a mindset... Kinda like ridin' a bike... Yeah, even back in the 60's and early 70's I had this inner red light that went off when I was around folks who just wanted to get stones or get alid that din't have a clue and these folks, like Martin (not to be pickin' on Marty) went on to live lives that had nuthin' to do with the heightened consciousness that hippies internalized...

I still keep up with my old hippie friends... Yeah, they are older... And grayer... But other than that they have stayed true to their hippie-ness... People who have met me go, "Yeah, Bobert is an old hippie..." But like I said, who cares other than other old hippies...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Janie
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:43 PM

What Bobert said....

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:50 PM

When my father came home wounded from WW2 he became (or was?) a beatnik so, even though I didn't know him until later, it wasn't a far walk for me. If I weren't physcially falling apart so often & busy getting patched up, I'd swear that I'm still that same hippie kid I was 40 yrs ago, no older, just wiser.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:20 PM

"You guys who are in your late forties really missed the so called "hippie movement". "

That just isn't true. Those of us in our late 40s would have been around 13 in 1970 and we saw more than you think. We saw the reactions from parents and our "older" brothers and sisters. We may have been better observes than you think!

Every generation goes through a spiritual awakening and a celebration of life. The "hippie movement" played into the hands of the media and became more conformist by creating their own culture - far from what was mainstream. Remember "trust no one over 30?" The hippies celebrated their moment, but unfortunately they were too self-absorbed to look beyond themselves.   The self-discovery that generation made was nothing different from the discoveries made by teenagers throughout the 20th century. Just better press.

Changes? Any generation that succeeds in getting Richard Nixon elected twice has to be considered a failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Beer
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:21 PM

Still have my head band that I purchased in 1967. There is no hair for it to hold any more though. In reading the threads I'm surprised in a way that in order to be a hippy you had to do drugs. I never did drugs, and was considered as a hippy. What is a "Hippy anyway?".
Beer

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: frogprince
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:46 PM

The reactionary idiot's definition of a hippy that I've heard a few times says that they frequently injected their drugs into their hips.
Clueless, I always figured.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: MBSLynne
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:19 AM

Hey guys! Lets really shock the younger generation and have a Mass Mudcat aged Hippy Love-In!! Who's in?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: MBSLynne
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:22 AM

Strikes me the hippy thing was very different in the US from England. I guess I only really caught the echo of it, being in Western Australia at the time

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: bobad
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 08:10 AM

"I'm surprised in a way that in order to be a hippy you had to do drugs."

You've got that right Beer, it seems that some of the folks on this thread can't dissociate the term hippy from the media creation of drug crazed, long haired, sex maniacs. Drugs were certainly around but, at least in my circles, they were not a major focus of every day life there was way more interesting stuff happening. Of course some experimenting took place, and that was perfectly normal and healthy (IMO) for the inquiring minds of our youth. Some people may have overdone it and entered the realm of abuse but I feel that is what the media overplayed for the sensationalism market, in fact from what I see there is more of a drug problem today than there was back then.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Midchuck
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:00 AM

...in fact from what I see there is more of a drug problem today than there was back then.

Unfortunately, that could perfectly well be true and still allow there to have been a great deal of drug use back then.

But I don't think as much of what the hippies did was heroin or crack cocaine - the stuff that really f***s up most people who use much of it.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:02 AM

Lynne...there's a BIG difference between 'hippy' and 'hippie' *grin*, (although a few were both)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 01:06 PM

"By 1970 people in the "movement" had either gone the back-to-the-land route, got involved in radical politics or social change movements or got jobs and "rejoined" society." - Bobad

Thats a very accurate statement of what became of old hippies.

Lets face it. Every generation has their day.

One thing that the hippie generation had that nobody else had was electronic rock and roll. It was a time of enormous musical expression and exciting concerts. The way we dressed is still copied now. Just look at women's fashion today.

We were unique. We no longer swallowed American propaganda and unlike our parents didn't believe that the government could do no wrong. My disillusionment began when Kennedy was assasinated and was fuelled by the civil rights movement and the Viet Nam war. Thats history and so are the beads, long hair and flowing skirts.

The music is still great.

What I don't understand is how Martin can still be hung up on the fact that he never fit in and was always considered to be a fake.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 03:17 PM

I was never a hippie.

But from 1967 to mid 1969, I was a member of a secular Black cultural nationalist group-the Committee for Unified Newark {CFUN}. The most prominent leader of that group during that time was poet/playwright/activist Amiri Baraka {LeRoi Jones}. This Black nationalist "movement" was not a cult-though admittedly, in retrospect, my opinion is that it was quite close to a cult. However, it was absolutely NOT a Black separatist or "kill the honky" group. CFUN emphasized the importance of African culture, Black self esteem, and Black group esteem. Since we could never really know which African ethnic group we belonged to, we took bits and pieces from several traditional African cultures and reshaped them into our own Africanized African-American images. For instance, we mixed standard English with Black street lingo, and snatches of Swahili and Zulu words. CFUN was also the first Eastern USA "community" to celebrate "Kwanzaa", itself a hodgepodged Africanized African-American holiday that was created by Oakland California activist Maulana Ron Karenga. Indeed, it is my opinion that the Kwanzaa holiday "caught on" in African American communities in large measure due to the support & promotion of Amiri Baraka.

Men and women in this group {as well as other Afro-centric African Americans during that time} sported big, wide afros. "Afros" were also known as "naturals" because the hair isn't straightened with chemicals or heat. Nowadays, most Black women and Black men wear their naturals much closer to the scalp. But back in the day, the bigger the afro, the better. BTW, it was very rare {and still is very rare} for girls younger than teenagers to wear "afros".

Although I never liked this style for myself, some women and girls also styled their hair in braids with or without beads attached. Other times, some women and girls would also wear their hair plaited in "cornrows". This was before the days of "extensions" {artificial hair added to women's hair for length} or "locks" {Rastafarian "dredlocks"}for women or men. This was also before the days when many Black men wore their hair in cornbraids-though some may recall Stevie Wonder wearing his hair in braids with beads on the end.

Instead of tie dyed clothes, the men in our group usually wore regular American clothing, or for special occassions dashikis with American style pants, and sometimes a kufi {Muslim type small hat}. In the summer months, the women wore material wrapped around as a ankle length dress. Most often we wore wear material wrapped around as a long skirt along with a tee shirt or sweat shirt. Women would also wear geles {material that was tied on the head. For special occassions, those who were lucky wore wear traditional Yoruba {Nigeria} buba {blouse}, lapa {skirt}, shawl, and gele {head wraps} or Senegalese dresses or two/three piece outfits.

Afrocentric Black women wore necklaces made of small beads and multiple silver or gold bracelets. We'd also wear Egyptian ankh necklaces. Black cultural nationalist men wore big wooden "tiki" necklaces or Egyptian ankh necklaces instead of beads. Some Black nationalist women got their ears pierced and wore two or three earrings in their ears at the same time. Often these were large hoop earrings but not "the door knocker" earrings with an initial that became "ghetto vogue" in the 1980s. Some Afrocentric Black women got their nose pierced. And some women got their lips pierced and wore small hoops or studs in their lip {this was before the time when women got their tongue pierced and wore stud earrings in their tongue}. But I was happy with one earring in an ear at a time and no nose ring, lip ring or tongue ring...I'm much too squeamish for any of that}.

Alot of members of the group {including me} thought we were poets. There was also music {conga drums those days instead of the West African djembe drums which since the 1990s have been omnipresent at Black cultural events}. And alot of women-more than the men-were in to African dancing. CFUN also had boot dancing men-and fine, fine brothers they were too!

For nutritional reasons, most members of CFUN stopped eating pork. Many became "pseudo-vegetarians"-we ate cooked chicken, and turkey, and some {but not me}also ate fish. When I think back on those days, I realize that there was little talk about religion. In the early days Amiri and Zayd and Mfundishi and other leaders of the group were Sunni Muslims. But that was the very very early days. At one point there was talk about "Unkulunkulu"-a Zulu name for the Supreme God. There were moral teachings but there no theology or metaphysical studies, teachings or ceremonies. I'm not sure why this was, but that's how I remember it.

And members of this group {and other Afrocentric Black folks in the USA and elsewhere} took on Arabic, or Yoruba, or Akan, or Swahili, or other traditional African first names. CFUN was the first Eastern United States "community" to celebrate the Kwanzaa holiday that Maulana Ron Karenga created in Oakland, California.

For a sense of the culture of Committee for Unified Newark {CFUN}, read this article about the Sprithouse , a meeting place that I remember being called the Hekalu {Swahili for "headquarters"}.

My experience in CFUN serves as a bases for my informal study of African cultures and other African Diaspora cultures. These cultures are my primary areas of interest, and {I feel} rightly so. Yet, it is a pleasure for me to learn about other cultures and find out similar cultures throughout the world were and are now, and probably will always be.


Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 03:23 PM

Foolish Guest, I was no fake. I was there for the 1968 Democratic convention. Like I said I just grew up and am happier for it.

This great song by a country act, The Bellamy Brothers speaks volumes.


Old Hippie

He turned thirty-five last Sunday
In his hair he found some gray
But he still ain't changed his lifestyle
He likes it better the old way
So he grows a little garden in the back yard by the fence
He's consuming what he's growing nowadays in self defense
He get's out there in the twilight zone
Sometimes when it just don't make no sense

He gets off on country music
Cause disco left him cold
He's got young friends into new wave
But he's just too friggin' old
And he dreams at night of Woodstock and the day John Lennon died
How the music made him happy and the silence made him cry
Yeah he thinks of John sometimes
And he has to wonder why

He's an old hippie and he don't know what to do
Should he hang on to the old
Should he grab on to the new
He's an old hippie...his new life is just a bust
He ain't trying to change nobody
He's just trying real hard to adjust

He was sure back in the sixties that everyone was hip
Then they sent him off to Vietnam on his senior trip
And they forced him to become a man while he was still a boy
And in each wave of tragedy he waited for the joy
Now this world may change around him
But he just can't change no more

He's an old hippie and he don't know what to do
Should he hang on to the old
Should he grab on to the new
He's an old hippie...his new life is just a bust
He ain't trying to change nobody
He's just trying real hard to adjust

Well he stays away a lot now from the parties and the clubs
And he's thinking while he's joggin' 'round
Sure is glad he quit the hard drugs
Cause him and his kind get more endangered everyday
And pretty soon the species will just up and fade away
Like the smoke from that torpedo...just up and fade away

He's an old hippie and he don't know what to do
Should he hang on to the old
Should he grab on to the new
He's an old hippie...his new life is just a bust
He ain't trying to change nobody
He's just trying real hard to adjust.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 03:30 PM

Was I a hippie ... no, there was too much music around and in me then to get caught up in that social phenomena.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 03:50 PM

Now that Martin has detailed his phantasy opponent we can take turns breaking down his mental image of what we're like. He won't believe it, of course, because once he has a picture of someone, that's who they are, as far as he knows, and change isn't an option. Kinda sad, but hey, every group as someone who is stuck in the past, and in this case, it's old Martin.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:07 PM

For most people change isn't an option ... people naturally fear change. Most people I'd say base their opinion on someone based on their mental image ... rather than accepting the person for what he/she is.

Just had throw this in ... but, I feel it still pertains to the topic of the thread.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:18 PM

I had long hair (in the days I HAD hair); went to anti-war demonstrations; went to peace rallies; carried an FN-C1 for a bit; had a beard for a while; never wore beads; never wore sandals until my hip replacement; smoked grass; wore jeans, but would sooner have had a glass of liquid manure than wear bell bottoms; never carried flowers for their power; was nonviolent at demonstrations but woould not tolerate attacks on the street from anyone. Hippie? No. Do I give a rat's ass if people think I was? No. So, having said that, am I an old hippie? No. Old bastard maybe, but not an old hippie.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:20 PM

Or maybe yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:22 PM

Are we to interpret this as a lyric request for "Hello,Goodbye" Peace?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:24 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:26 PM

Good one Peace !!!

I am what I am ... take it or leave it.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:43 PM

I still hate the same things today that I did then, and admire the same things. Unreconstructed. The days when I had to try to pretend to be a respectable citizen to get by have passeed and gone, and I can revert to type. It's a great feeling.
.........................
Before the clone threads start multiplyiong lets get the puns out in the open:

Old Mudcat Harpies
Of Mudcat Happies
Old Mudcat Drippies
Old Mudcat Lippies
Old Mudcat Strippies
Old Mudcat Shippies
Old Mudcat Chippies...

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:45 PM

and Dippies

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:49 PM

For those a bit kinkier, Mudcat Whippies...

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:51 PM

Let 100 Mudcat flowers bloom.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:51 PM

Sheeoooot; had "100" and didn't claim it...

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:52 PM

It's two late now.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Beer
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:55 PM

Hippies grow old but do they really change? I bet most musical threads and the "BS" ones (especially the political ones) are created by the same folks that loved the music and protested against the establishment.
flaminco ted. Loved that quote you used by John Sebastian "They came to the revolution in their daddy's car.
Good thread Mr.Gibson

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:03 PM

I should add I was kicked out of juniour high in 1966 for having long hair and refusing to get it cut.

Yes MG ... this is a good thread.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: bobad
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:20 PM

I have a sneaking suspicion that MG's disdain is at least somewhat feigned and that he harbours some nostalgia for his "hippie" days as he has, on more than one occasion, made it a point to let us know that he was a real hippie.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:22 PM

The young guys I was hanging out with in the early 70's all smoked dope, except for me. They all smoked cigarettes except for me too, and so did all the girls. (I thought they were pretty stupid for doing that, but they had other good points in their favour.)

Everybody had long hair. The guys I knew liked talking about dope, comparing the varieties, and so on. They could talk about it till you wanted to just lie down and die... ;-)

One young fella named Jim was cautious about the dope at first, but he desperately wanted to fit in, so he tried it a few times and gradually got to like it (I assume). He would cough and splutter horribly, turn beet red, choke and gasp...I guess this was what you call "having a good time"? LOL! It was damn funny watching him do it. I would sit there with my coffee, observing them all and thinking..."Boy, these people are living in a friggin' dream world. Totally out of it. My, my. The price of being 'cool'."

Yes, every day the Holy Sacrament of the marijuana joint was attended to religiously by these stalwarts, companions of my youth, while I focused on politics, society, history, philosophy, and the music of Bob Dylan and Buffy Sainte-Marie. They listened to the Stones, Led Zeppelin, the Beatles, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, Jimi Hendrix, Emerson/Lake/&Palmer, Yes, etc...

I liked the Stones okay, but I downright hated Led Zeppelin.

One day Jimmie, the cautious guy, decided to roll a joint, but he could find nothing left but seeds and twigs. He used them. The resulting joint burned very poorly, the seeds started to burst and pop, and the smell it made was simply awful. Jim had a hell of a time with the smoke, and turned kind of purple trying to hold it in. He gave it up after awhile. I don't think you can get high smoking marijuana seeds. ;-P

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:26 PM

"I don't think you can get high smoking marijuana seeds. ;-P"

However, bake with them and ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:31 PM

Number 6 and all: I s'pose this is drift, but:
In Arkansas, 1966, we saw a black fellow student kicked off a ball team for having long hair. The thing was, his hair was no longer than was common for the white students; he was wearing it "afro", and it stuck out a little more. Most if not all the black students, and a number of the white, protested, but the decision held; quite a few of the black students left the school. Over a year later I personally heard the "beloved old coach" brag publically that he had never allowed any "long hairs" on his team. The only thing to be said for him was, I do think he would have cracked down on a white player with conspicuously long hair.
The morning the situation broke open on campus, my white, northern roommate left the dorm wearing all black clothes; he often did. Several southerners promptly challanged the "significance" of his black clothing. Several of us white students dressed all in black for the duration of the incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:39 PM

Smoking tobacco - yes, that's definitely one stupid thing I used to do that I've given up on for good.

As for hair - I admit I tend feel the same way about really short hair as older people used to feel about long hair. Just doesn't look natural or right. So I suppose some thing never really change, they just alter.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: bobad
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:54 PM

Hemp seeds are now being marketed for the healthful benefits of the omega 3 and 6 essential fatty acid content of their oil. Seems that we've come full circle, now we use it to keep the ol' tickers ticking.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:01 PM

I had some roasted hemp seeds a while back. They have a neat taste.

Good link here.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:12 PM

Buy Canadian . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:22 PM

And completely legal

It's only when you plant them it gets tricky.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:32 PM

But after the birds eat that seed they sing FOLK MUSIC.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Beer
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 07:38 PM

I ordered a case of Hemp Hearts back in December from Rocky Mountain Grain Products out of Lethbridge Alberta. Great with just about anything you eat.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 07:41 PM

There are a few companies in Alberta handling hemp products.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 08:18 PM

Bobad, I thought for a moment about your theory, and then thought no, not really. That was a different time and place. People are supposed to grow and evolve as they get older, not get stuck in the same rut.

Perhaps that is the point I am trying to make. I see way too many here stuck in a rut, a groove (groovy?), a comfort zone of on-going conflict.    No, things are better for me now then they have ever been.

Cleaning up one's act and becoming part of society instead of being on the fringe of it can get you out of that rut. You ought to try it, Amos. It might win you some friends that you can actually shake hands with.

Old hippies today are pretty laughable. They are looked at as dinosaurs and an endangered species if not somewhat quaint. Why be part of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 08:23 PM

I take the seeds from Columbia and Mexico
and plant up the holler on Copperhead Raod...

Actually, seeds are purdy much a thing of the past... Plants don't produce them anymore unless you have old generation crappy plants... The bees knees is to just keep yer Sansimilion plant going year 'round and starting new plants from old ones... My, how times have changed...

But smokin' pot would be like trying to describe to a Martian what a car is by showin' the Martian a carburator...

It wasn't all about pot... Actually, it wasn't ***ALL*** about anything, other than changing the way we look at situations and the mythology that had been handed us as to what we were supposed to be all about...

Yeah, we had all these rules and morays and lots of them just didn't make sense... They didn't jive with our innerds... They weren't prohuman... They weren't proEarth... They were just some very screwed up rules and morays and, inspite of the sex, drugs and rock 'n roll, it was more about that mytholgy that the movement was/is about...

Actaully, I don't very much like the term hippie, though I guess I am by defination (whatever the defination is), what most folks would call an old hippie... The term in itself is part of the mythology.... Labels, while tending to be neat and tidy, don't quite fit the "movement", fir lack of a better term... But it was just that... A m-o-v-e-m-e-n-t... The base word being "move" and while it wasn't as mindless as a school of fish it certainly swept up alot of folks... Who got it....

As for Zeppelin v. Dylan??? My old hippie friends dug both... It wasn't either/or... But like I said, it wasn'/isn't about any one thing....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 08:27 PM

Bobert, it was a bowel movement. That's why you are focused on it. Do your kids know you still smoke pot?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 08:35 PM

Smoking pot then . . . .

Smoking pot now . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 09:07 PM

Martin,

I have 20 year old son and we have smoked pot together since he was about 18...

BTW, he lives on the west coast and gets up every morning at 5:00 and goes to work on public transportation....

But like I said, it ain't all about pot... It ain't all about nuthin' except the way we view things...

A time to reap, a time to sow (no, not related to pot...)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 09:09 PM

Born 1937: too young to be a beatnik, too old to be a hippie. Just as well, IMO.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: What sinners remember best is that they were happy while sinning. :||

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Janie
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 09:30 PM

Seems to me that "Hippie" referred to two separate but related phenomena. One was window dressing. The other was an entertwined set of social movements. The window dressing bit is seen among the youth of every generation as they strive toward completion of the developmental tasks of separation/individuation from parents. Form is as important as substance in this instance. And part of the process is to try to look and be as much LIKE your peers and as much DIFFERENT from your parents as you can pull off.

    The social movements arose from the Civil Rights movement, IMO. The issues around the Vietman war were issues of social justice, both with respect to who was most likely to become cannon fodder in this country, and with respect to the USA's foreign policy. Environmental issues are also essentially issues of social justice.

    Many of us young people running around in bell-bottoms and beads were not nearly as radical as we liked to think we were. I know I never participated in any protest or demonstration that I thought might get me tear-gassed or jailed, and never participated in a student strike if a I had a big test that day in class.   

      But my political and social views have continued to flow in the direction of social justice and I think that is true of many of us here. My life-style, choice of work, and community activities all reflect that. I suspect many other 'old hippies' here can say the same. Continued activism around social justice issues is the hallmark of an 'old hippie' in my book. Living a life that reflects, as much as possible, those values of social justice, is the mark of an 'old hippie.' We have grown, matured, become more thoughtful, more aware of complexity. But many of us have not 'sold out' entirely to the Establishment. Many of us made conscious choices to pursue life work and community involvements that we understood from the start would probably not allow us the same standard of living our parents achieved, or wanted for us. We recognize, (and for myself, sometimes envy) the comfort to be had there. But we understand the cost of that comfort to others in the world and continue to work for social justice in small and large ways.
    Plenty of people, old and young, who were never part of the 'hippie' movement do the same of course. I do not mean to imply that being firmly planted in the middle or upper socioeconomic classes is an indication of callousness Many 'old hippies' learned to work for changw within the system. And they are still doing so.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 09:54 PM

It's of no vital importance whether or not people smoke pot, in my opinion, as long as they don't smoke it too much. That's why I laughed at my peers in the early 70's...and I laughed at the establishment...I laughed at both of them for taking the whole damn thing so seriously! It's a tempest in a tea pot, as they say. You're better off without it, in my opinion, but there are about 500 more pressing issues one could worry about on the path to better health.

Martin, I don't get the impression Amos is on the "fringes" of society at all. I know I am. ;-) But I was on the fringes of the hippy movement too, because I didn't smoke anything! I'm always on the fringes of everything, it's just my nature. I've never seen a status quo yet that I felt totally comfortable with for very long. I think human beings are strange, and their social ideas are stranger still. They're almost all a little bit crazy. Most of them take their usual "scene" for granted. I don't. The idiocies of the hippy movement were about as plain to me as the idiocies of the establishment they were protesting against.

Then too, I can see the good points it both of them.

I'm a spirit. I'm just here temporarily, checking out a very, very peculiar society in which I have always felt a bit out of place.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 09:56 PM

Bobert, I have a 21 year old son, and I have never smoked pot with him. If you think bragging about smoking pot with your son makes you a good example for a parental role model, I feel extremely sorry for you. And your son. Quite frankly, you are a poor influence. A very poor influence.

Janie, it just comes across as a holier than thou attitude. It does sound like a lot of self-righteous crap. Sorry, but it does. You don't need to be an anti-establishment martyr to serve the community well. Sometimes working with it instead of against it can get more done. Your attitude is just kind of "us and them." Now that's what I mean by Mudcat's old hippies. Grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Janie
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:03 PM

But Martin, my understanding of your premise in this thread is that you are seeing it as 'us and them.'

And you're right, much of my last post ended up sounding awfully sanctimonious.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:08 PM

Come on, LH.... You weren't on the fringes... You were in the danged middle... Just didn't now it because you had this *impression* it was about pot, or sex or rock 'm roll... That was fir them hippie wantabees...

Man, you are so main stream hippie that you don't have a clue.... That's good.... Real good...

And genuine....

Like Janie said, it's baout the choices folks make and the invetsments they make toward making for a just society... Those investments aren't made solely in the front lines of protests but everywhere folks can challenge the complete mythology that has been fealt us in terms of how we are to think and behave...

So get beyond the pot. Get beyond the Zeppilin v. Dylan... Think about that *rock*... Get into that *rock*.... Except that *rock* as yet another blessing from God....

That is being a hippie...

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:11 PM

Actually Janie, it's us and a few of you.

But that's OK. You seem to have some pretty good common sense going for you. Keep up your good volunteer work to help others.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:35 PM

I was kinda like Joan Baez, Bobert...very much into the political and philosophical side or it, not at all interested in the drug scene. I was serious about it. I hated seeing the movement sidetracked into a bunch of wannabee fools who just wanted to party all the time, and who supported protest merely because it was seen as the cool thing to do. Their cynicism was all too evident to me.

I guess I was into it pretty deep all right. Anyway, thanks for the words of support.

And I did like a lot of the rock music. I liked Hendrix, the Stones, the Beatles, the Band, the Who, Jefferson Airplane, the Byrds, CSNY, Neil Young...but I wasn't much impressed by the English Progressive Rock stuff, which was what most of my friends liked the best. I love that movie, "This Is Spinal Tap", because it makes fun of the pretentiousness so typical of a lot of those English Prog-Rock/Metal groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:58 PM

LH,

And yer welcome, ya' "old hippie"... Now next time you go off contemplating the souls of rocks (not related to music directly but very much indirectly) just know that it's what's in yer danged heart and not which rock (as in music) group you liked...

But you, of all folks, know what I'm talkin' 'bout here...

But also know that ya' gotta give it back an' that's perhaps where we all struggle as we get older...

I went to Front Royal, Va. todat and played blues on the street and talked between songs about stuff... Hey, I needed to do that... We all have our purposes...

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 01:37 AM

LH, you're only saying that cos your amp doesn't go up to 11!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 11:12 AM

Those Hippy 60's wasn't all just all about rock and roll, bell bottoms and smokin Acapulco Gold ... to me it was an era of discovering the very fine music emerging back then that greatly influenced me to this day ... south of the border there was Paul Butterfield, Wes Montgomery, Bill Evans, the ever evolving Miles Davis and John Coltrane, here in Canada there was the brilliant Lenny Breau, Gordon Lightfoot (mentioned earlier in this post) ... the British Invasion to me was the discovery Bert Jansch, John Renbourne, Pentangle, Fairport Convention, John Mayall. I've never stopped listening to this music, so in my own way I'm still an old hippy from the past ... but they also left the element of joy in dicovering new music, new artists to this very day.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Beer
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 11:33 AM

Dead on brother.
Beer

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 12:28 PM

Dinosaurs lasted a long long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 01:05 PM

They lasted far longer than the USA will.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: GUEST,old beatnik
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 01:46 PM

That is the one fault and demise of hippies, they will bring politics comprising of old tired anti USA rants into every situation they can. Man, they just don't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 02:36 PM

There were tired old anti-Roman rants all over the ancient world too...for some reason (?). Strange, wasn't it?

When you fuck around with other people all over the world in a truly outrageous manner and pretend you're doing them a favour, they rant against you. Get used to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: GUEST,old beatnik
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 02:53 PM

Fuck the Roman's man, like they aint with it now. It's not just them that's fucking around with ya man. Wake up, and take up the factoid that it's all the fat cats of the burgeois hypes. You old hippie types are sitting around in a stupour left over from some sandlewood scent from some chick you grooved out at woodstock with, rantin about this and rantin about that and you do nothing about it. Fuck, like man, you cats aint got the moxy soxy to truly drop out, cause like man, you are too fucking groovin to the beat of society's commercial bongo.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 03:02 PM

LOL! Do you really talk like that or are you just pretending?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: GUEST,old hippie
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 03:07 PM

Yeah man, you dig it. Like man, you gotta get on the road. You gotta ride the toad. You gotta let go of that old load.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: GUEST,old beatnik
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 03:10 PM

Yeah I groove with the true lingo. old hippie there is just some plastic pretender. Like all hippies do. Man, you gotta get to the true groove.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 03:12 PM

Right. Well, I am so glad you have made me aware of that. Just tell me what I should do next.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 03:20 PM

The word "hippie" is one of those words cobbled together by the media—Herb Caen of the San Francisco Chronicle, to be exact—in order to put a disparate group of people who are perceived to share one or more characteristics into a single category. It's another one of these terms that tries to pigeon-hole people, and as is almost always the case, it is often applied indiscriminately, broadly, and inaccurately. In short, it refers to some vague generality in the mind of the person using the term, but it usually fails miserably in any attempt to make a one-to-one correspondence with the real world.

Stereotypes of the hippie lifestyle included:

—Longer hair and fuller beards than what was currently acceptable (e.g., a well-trimmed Van Dyke beard).
—Tie-dyed T-shirts, dashikis, girls in bib-overalls, and bell-bottom pants (although I don't recall seeing very many tie-dyed T-shirts, and rarely bell-bottoms being worn by anyone except Tom Jones look-alikes and "would-be" hippies—high school kids who thought Melvin Krebs was "cool"). Head scarves, head-bands, beaded necklaces, and sandals.
—Often the above was assumed to include a general disregard for the niceties of personal hygiene.
—Musical tastes included psychedelic rock (Jimi Hendrix), blues (Janis Joplin), Eastern music (Ravi Shankar), funk (Sly and the Family Stone), and folk music of the Bob Dylan variety or Joan Baez doing protest songs, generally listen to while smoking pot, ingesting mescaline, shooting up, or dropping acid. Active musical interests often included casual performing—guitars were de rigueur (your chances of finding a hippie accordion player were pretty slim). Hit songs:   Michael, Row the Boat Ashore and Kum-Bye-Ya.
—Transportation was usually a VW bus with a daisies and peace symbols painted all over it.
—Political involvement generally consisted of liberal or progressive causes such as Civil Rights, protest against the Vietnam War, and was manifested by protest rallies, sit-ins, and sticking the stem of a flower into the barrel of a National Guardsman's rifle.
—Lifestyle included free love, communal living, the use of incense, and a mellow outlook on life, taking no thought for the morrow.

It is assumed by large numbers of what might be called "the less philosophically rigorous," that if one possesses or ascribes to one of the above listed characteristics, one ascribes to them all. For example, it was assumed by some that because Bob (Deckman) Nelson (building contractor), Judy Flenniken (Oceanography student), Dave DeSoto (newscaster at KOL radio), Nancy Quensé (Drama student), a fellow whose name I don't recall, but who had just graduated from Harvard in Economics, and I (studying English Literature and Music at the University of Washington), plus a dozen or so others (with a variety of "day jobs") who sang folk songs in coffeehouses in the Seattle area were all "hippies."   Why? Because, no matter how poorly we may have fit into the above list of stereotypes (all employed, either in the work force or as students, all well-groomed, representing a variety of political opinions, and out of the couple dozen or so, only three or four that I knew of who occasionally indulged in pot [none of the named people], and nobody drove a VW bus) we all sang folk songs in coffeehouses.

Conservatives almost invariably used the term "hippie" as an insult toward young adults who had leftist, liberal, and other progressive outlooks on life, no matter how far the rest of their life-style differed from the stereotype.

And the beat goes on. The implication of some posts in this thread (actually, the initiation of the thread itself) is that anyone who is a) old enough to have been around during the Sixties, and b) who has an interest in folk music, and c) who embraces liberal or progessive views, especially espressing misgivings about the present administration and opposition to such things as unnecessary and illegal wars—is an "old hippie."

"Hippie" is a very vague term.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 03:24 PM

Yeah, like all such labels it's an excuse to avoid thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 03:31 PM

A very cogent & highly readable post Don.
Though there are areas of overlap I do not recognise myself from the description you give.
I was 5 at the time of the summer of love.
Which facts notwithstanding people whose politics we might term "Right of Sensible" have been accusing me of being a Hippy for as long as I can remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 05:06 PM

"Yeah, like all such labels it's an excuse to avoid thinking."

So is that thing called 'corporate policy'.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:06 PM

Now I know what a hippie is ... what the hell is a beatnik?!?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:13 PM

A hippie in training.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:15 PM

Basically, an old hippie...

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:27 PM

I dunno guys ..... beatnik sounds kinda like a Roosian (conspiracy) word to me.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:28 PM

The prototype, or "concept" design for a hippy, which was modified when put into actual mass production.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:06 PM

Hippies wore sandals, beatniks wore boots. Old hippies wear boots too. QED

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:41 PM

"The prototype, or "concept" design for a hippy, which was modified when put into actual mass production."

This prototype failed frogprince ... since the results was Generation X.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:06 PM

Man, six, don't square the scene -- the beats were the first to groove, to dig the scene, to yearn for hepness which was hipness. They married Chicago jazz to Bird to Zen to the Avatar of Tao, and dug the sorry shadows cast on the endless rolling watery Mississippi of time by the battered reeds and bent trees of modern America, and of all thisi that they saw they sang, and drummed, and wrote of it in poetry, and drank of it in espresso.

These beats were cool, and they came forth from their pads to the good places where their voices could be heard, snap[ping their fingers tot he cosmic Akashic bongos of Infinite Time, pulsing in their veins. These were the forebears of Ginsberg and the ancestors of the hippies who came after them, and of the flower children who swarmed after the hippies.

They were the hipsters, the flipsters, the strung out midnight racers of the soul, the transcontinental mourners of higher consciousness in the raceways of the grate American Circle of hell itself, blowing the sweet licks of Dharma's righteous rhythms and scales in the face of all the daemons of down and of morose, and lay back in the scowls of the satans of satiny conformance and political correctitude, and made the scene high and sweet even in the sufferingest of the pits of Ho-Jo and of Texaco across the straining bosom of the tortured land.

This, and more, were the beatniks, those shaggy heroes and heroines of Divine phenomenology, whose seeds went forth and painted the world a hipper color of high and a smoother color of cool in the days before you were a gleam of tantric potential in the aether. They were the mothers and fathers of the Groove from which, as we all know, all things groovy are born.

Any questions?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:08 PM

Great writing, Amos!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:13 PM

They where a lot hipper than the hippies Amos.

They made more of an impact to the arts, philosphy and society than what they had been credited for ... Overshadowed in history by the 'not so hip' hippies.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:15 PM

"Like, man, I think I'm dyng; call me an ambulance"
"Groovy, man; like, you're and ambulance".

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:16 PM

One famous 'beatnik' was the comedian Lenny Bruce ... he had much disdain for the hippies who where merging upon the scene at the time of his sudden death.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:27 PM

Might as well get this thread rolling to the end ... then there was the Bohemians, I'm referring to the Bloomsbury set, those anti-bourgeois writers who lived and gathered in Mayfair, who set a precedent to the 'beatniks' ...... or did they?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:29 PM

Indeed, the Bohemians were the predessors to the Beatniks and were totally incredibly cool in their time.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:00 PM

And of course let of us not forget Maynard G. Crebbs, who like all beatniks turned into Little Buddy.

Christ, I can't take this place and this type of ranting seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:03 PM

Ommmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:04 PM

I don't know, sIx...

The beaty might have planted the seeds but it was the hippies who got out there and *worked* to change the nation consciousness on "ism's" and it's support for the Vietnam War...

But, hey, don't get me wrong... The beats definately got did some heavy lifting in terms of culture...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:16 PM

Peace, Martin said "ranting" not "chanting".

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:18 PM

Rommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:18 PM

However, you get brownie points for that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:21 PM

Cross-posted.


Here's another one

Hooooooom [ie]

[not that this has anything to do with hippies]

But anything goes in hippie-dom, right?

Or is that another stereotype that needs to be kicked to the curb?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 10:11 PM

All stereotypes have some truth to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 10:20 PM

A good rationalization for trafficking only in stereotypes, Martin....not! :D



A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 10:42 PM

"Beatnik" was slang (part of the fad for -nik following on Sputnik in 1957) for "beat" = member of the Beat Generation, a term popularized by John Clellon Holmes in a rather sensational article in the New York Times Magazine in 1952, and attributed by him to Jack Kerouac. For him, it meant his own generation, which was adolescent during W.W. II -- too young to have fought in it, but old enough to have been shaken up by it. "The peace they inherited was only as secure as the next headline. It was a cold peace. Their own lust for freedom, and their ability to live at a pace that kills, to which war had adjusted them, led to black markets, bebop, narcotics, sexual promiscuity, hucksterism and Jean-Paul Sartre. The beatness set in later."

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: People would never fall in love if they hadn't heard of it. :||

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 10:55 PM

Here's an excerpt from an online article about the term "beatnik". That article begins with the statement that the term "The Beat Generation" was coined by Jack Kerouac in a 1948 conversation with novelist John Clellon Holmes, who went on to write a New York Times article about it, 'This Is The Beat Generation'.


"...In fact the original word meant nothing more than 'bad' or 'ruined' or 'spent.' We all use the word this way. When somebody is trying to get one last hit out of a bowl of weed and there's nothing but ashes left, you say 'Don't bother, it's beat.' Or when you're tired: 'I'm beat.' There's beaten-down, beaten-up and beaten-out. The connotation is defeat, resignation, disappointment.

That kind of beatness is what Kerouac was describing in himself and his friends, bright young Americans who'd come of age during the Second World War but couldn't fit in as clean-cut soldiers or complacent young businessmen. They were 'beat' because they didn't believe in straight jobs and had to struggle to survive, living in dirty apartments, selling drugs or committing crimes for food money, hitchhiking across the country because they couldn't stay still without getting bored. The phrase 'Beat Generation' was meant to echo Ernest Hemingway's description of his own crowd (which came of age during the First World War) as the 'Lost Generation,' a phrase Hemingway picked up from an off-hand remark made by Gertrude Stein.

But the term 'beat' has a second meaning: 'beatific' or sacred and holy. Kerouac, a devout Catholic, explained many times that by describing his generation as beat he was trying to capture the secret holiness of the downtrodden. In fact, this is probably the most central theme in Kerouac's work (think of the saintly hobos and lonely truck drivers of 'On The Road' and 'The Dharma Bums')".

Source: http://www.litkicks.com/Topics/BeatEtymology.html

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 11:38 PM

The article that I referred to in my last post is titled
Lost, Beat, and Hip .

A portion of the article discusses the etymology of the word "hip":

"...I don't know the derivation of the term 'Hipster'..., but I could make a totally uninformed guess that it originally referred to hip flasks -- that is, that a 'hipster' carried liquor on his hip instead of hidden in his boot like a 'bootlegger.' I may be totally wrong here, though. I've also heard that 'hip' started with 'hep,' which would mean that my hip flask theory is wrong, and I have no idea where 'hep' came from. I've heard that Ken Kesey has a theory that the word came from Chinese opium smokers who reclined on their hips while they smoked. I've also heard that the word comes from West Africa via the Gullah dialect spoken in the Sea Islands off the coast of South Carolina. A hipicat denotes a person attuned to his environment, literally with 'eyes open.' Somebody else emailed me that it comes from the military-march utterance "Hup!" as in "Hup-two-three-four," but I don't get what the connection would be here.."

-snip-

I believe that a word can have multiple origins for the same meaning [and for different meanings]. Needless to say, I like the Wolof [Senegal and The Gambia} theory that the origin of the term "hepcat" was popularized by late 1930s/1940s jive talkin jazzmen. As to the "Cry Wolof" debunkers of this theory [see this article for example: http://www.slate.com/id/2110811/], my view is that the fact that the Wolof language has no "h" and the actual word was spelled 'xippi' can be explained by the folk process [since the "x" in that language is pronounced like an "h"].

Jesse Sheidlower and the rest of the "Cry Wolof" crowd argue that "hep" or "hip" didn't gain popular currency by Black folks until it became a 1940s jive * term. *"jive" here meaning "up to date"/"street wise"/"in the latest fashion" and not the alternative contemporary meaning of "sorry ass"/fake"}. Sheidlower and his followers [I suppose he has some] seem to hold the view that since the positive meaning of the word "hip" wasn't a part of Black lingo before the 1930s [i.e. it wasn't used by enslaved African Americans]then African Americans couldn't have gotten it from Africa.

First off, if there were attempts to document the opinion that the word "hip" wasn't used in this way by 17th, 18th, or 19th century African Americans, I'd love to see such research. And even if my ancestors weren't hip to that word then, again, we do folk process well [meaning Black folks love to create new words, and stretch or completely change the meaning of already existing words]. Besides, who's to say that some African American couldn't have traveled to Senegal or The Gambia and brought the word "hipicat" back home with him [or her]? Or a Wolof speaking student or tourist from Senegal or The Gambia could have traveled to the United States, hooked up with some brother or sister and "hepped" him or her to that the word "xippicat".

What an idea! How amazing that Black people from two different continents could have shared culture with each other, and then with the rest of the world!

Remarkable!!


Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 12:01 AM

Amos, you seem to have a real problem. I merely said that all stereotypes have some truth in them. Do you deny that? I think that you just are a wimp who is just easily offended by the existance of stereotypes. They are obviously one of your great "social injustices." All I say is that they exist and originated for some conceptions found in differences in people. Quite frankly, why pretend that they do not exist. They probably will never go away. There is no Utopia, Amos. There just is what there is.

You bore many with your self-righteous political correctness, Amos.

You amuse many with your pseudo-intellectualism on a web forum that has zero impact.

You are basically ignored by many who really don't give a damn what your opinion is anyway, myself included.

You are just an old Mudcat hippie, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 12:27 AM

Well I guess my attempt to change the subject [from a discussion of stereotypes] didn't work. So what the heck. I can talk about stereotypes too.

Martin, even though you didn't direct your statement about stereotypes to me, I have a question for you.

Are you an absolutist?

After all you said "all stereotypes have some truth in them."
Now if you had said "some stereotypes have some truth in them, I'd agree.

But to focus on two "minority" populations, there's quite a number of negative stereotypes out there about Jewish people and there are quite a number of negative stereotypes about Black people.

Are you saying that all of those stereotypes have some truth in them?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 01:16 AM

Heh!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 08:01 AM

Azizi, to some degree, yes. From lazy blacks to big-nosed Jews, to Catholics with way too many kids, and white trash in trailer courts.

All of this in 2006 is out there. I am not at all saying I promote it. I am not denying that it still doesn't exist. There are also stereotypes out there that are exaggerated.

I actually just ignore then for the most part. But they are not all just myth. People observe groups of others that are different from themselves, and opinions are formed. What else can "cause" a stereotype? Stereotypes are not just caused by one person's opinion. You may not like them, but how you yourself get past them as an individual is what really matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 08:19 AM

Martin,

Neither you nor anyone else is going to cause me to highjack your interesting thread on hippies any further than I have.

Suffice it to say that I'm not an absolutist about stereotypes or most anything else.

[Ha! I almost made an absolutist statement!!]

If the spirit moves me, I'll continue this discussion about stereotypes at another time and in what I consider to be a more appropriate thread.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 09:08 AM

Could we get back to outing old hippies please? I bet a lot of you frazzled crincklies now have 'bread head' jobs that would make your dads proud eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:19 AM

LOL ... good one Ted!!

BTW ... I do. I bet most of us do in fact. Bottom line we all probably did 'cop' out in the long run.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:23 AM

Part of the Big Machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:25 AM

And we are all stokin the fire of it's engines.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:40 AM

I'm stokin' my woodstove.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:43 AM

Me too ... the goddamned capitalists are chargin too much for power to heat the house!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:51 AM

Right on!

Power to the People!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:50 PM

Good answer, Martin. I think you are probably correct. Close to it, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Amos
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:50 PM

Martin:

Wrong again, amigo. I don't have a real problem. The only problem "I" have is in your fetid imagining. Which is exactly what I was talking about. But I know better than to do what I am doing right now, which is discussing stuff with you, which is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It just annoys the pig and wastes my time. So I am going to stop now.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:55 PM

I knew that sooner or later MG would say something I agreed with. If a stereotype didn't have some truth in it, it wouldn't work, even as an insult. Stereotypes are caricatures, and caricatures have to have some truth in them.

Stereotypes do shine a light in some particular aspect of the truth. When people try to generalise them into something wider ranging they becomes lies.

Sometimes of course you get outright lies, but that's a different thing. The typical Paddy joke you fin dinn Engkand (similar to the Poilish jones you have in the States, based on the idea that the Irish are thick is an example; on the other hand stereotypes about drinking and fighting and blarney and so forth are valid enough, though only part of the truth.

Most of the stereoypes about hippies have that kind of partial truth. At the same time, as with national or sexual gender stereotypes, for every single element in them you could come up with people who would clearly fall within the group concerneed, but wouldn't share that particular characteristic.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:23 PM

I prefer monotype.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:26 PM

Which brings us to the question ... whatever happened to quadrophonics?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:28 PM

Of course stereotypes have some truth in them. For example, all American Indians walk in single file.

At least the one I saw did.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:33 PM

He must have been deaf in 1 ear Don ... if he was walking single file west he would have been deaf in the right ear, if he was walking single file east, then of course he was deaf in the left ear. You have to watch out for the ones walking east, they are all communists.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:34 PM

"Which brings us to the question ... whatever happened to quadrophonics?"

Which brings us to yet another question: what happened to eight track tapes?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:36 PM

I've heard they end up in garage sales.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Janie
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:52 PM

I'm saving mine until it becomes an antique. It will be especially valuable with the chewed up tape still stuck in it!

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 04:04 PM

"I've heard they end up in garage sales."

What? So now I gotta buy a garage to get an eight track tape? Geeze . . . .



"I'm saving mine until it becomes an antique. It will be especially valuable with the chewed up tape still stuck in it!"

THAT will be a collector's item.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Amos
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 06:50 PM

Now, if you deal in stereotypes, and you suddenly broaden your horizons by a factor of two, do you start thinking in quadrotypes?

Oscillating minds want to know.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 07:09 PM

Amos, that is exactly the 1 millionth time you have responded that you won't deal with what I say.

You always do and you always will.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 07:11 PM

And to the power of -1 is it then monoral?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 08:00 PM

"And to the power of -1 is it then monoral?"

Wouldn't that make it the reciprocal - oral mon?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 08:04 PM

Thgir!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 07:59 AM

thanks for another good thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: the one
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 12:31 PM

and the beat goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Amos
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 11:55 AM

Hipsters Accuse Each Other of Being Hipsters, reports The Onion.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Allan C.
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 04:42 PM

Like most other movements, I was otherwise involved when the true Hippie thing was happening.

I was far too young to fully appreciate the Beatnicks. I barely caught the tail end of the Bobby-socks era. I was in Brazil when the Twist became popular. And, although Jan & Dean, the Beach Boys, et al., were having their first hits when I moved to California, I was too busy learning to play "Dona, Dona" and "Puff, the Magic Dragon" to pay much attention to the surfing scene. I was in the Air Force and stationed in Montana on the day when "the Hippie" was funeraled in "Ha'shbury" in San Francisco, an event that was intended to signify the end or death of the Hippie movement. I was far too poor to become a Yuppie.

"So, I'll continue to continue to pretend my life will never end ...." and, as SINSULL said, I'll try to make up for lost time.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Panny
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 09:19 PM

I don't know if this thread is dead or not but I'm just curious: Are old hippies married to other old hippies?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: bobad
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 09:26 PM

Some are some aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 09:54 PM

I didn't. Hubby is NOT mainstream--but he ain't never been a hippie--old or otherwise--He and I are both sure he was supposed to have been born in 1800 and been a fur trapper in the Rockies. Not sure where the karma went wrong.

Nope! He ain't no hippie!

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 10:32 PM

Some hippies I would thing ended up marrying some broads that ended up being hippos.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 12:18 AM

Here is what some old hippies are doing in California with their 1/5 acre home lot. Very cool. living green is the way to go. old hippies are leading the charge. I've gotten some great ideas. blogs are a new improved way to grow from other people. join me

sustainable small house lot

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 08:24 AM

he was supposed to have been born in 1800 and been a fur trapper in the Rockies.

That definitely sounds like some kind of hippie to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Janie
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 09:52 AM

Nope. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much testosterone:0)