BS: Everest...at all cost?

Subject: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: Alba
Date: 26 May 06 - 11:24 PM

I had heard a snippet on the radio a few days ago that a British Mountaineer had died on Everest but I didn't catch the whole story.
I found an article about the Death of David Sharp, aged 34, this evening and I have to admit right away that I have no experience what so ever with High Altitude Mountaineering and have never been to the Base Camp at Mount Everest so that may account for my failure to understand why this Young Man had to die as he did.

I have heard from several people I know well and who had visited Nepal on two occasions, once about 24 years ago and then again about 10 years ago, that whatever romantic imagery I have about the Mountain is just that. They were shocked at what they found when they travelled to Nepal for the second time and saw the area around the base of the Everest.
So when I read this article I realized that the changes they found shocking then, pale in comparison to what goes on there today.

I find this Story very sad. The image in my mind of Everest now is not of a majestic Mountain challenging the Brave to conquer her. That image has been replaced by the scene described in this article.
I would be interested to know what any of you think.
Climber's death sparks debate

Best Wishes to all
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: Gurney
Date: 27 May 06 - 12:10 AM

David was overtaken by darkness on his descent, and when he was found in the morning, had been there for hours without warmth nor oxygen.
He was found by an organised expedition which included a Kiwi double amputee (both legs from below the knee). He was initially given oxygen, but then was deemed beyond help, with limbs frozen solid, although not at that point dead. The expedition left him and continued the climb to a successful conclusion.
There has been considerable shit hitting the fan here in NZ, as many people think that the finders should have abandoned their attempt and tried to save him. Their number includes the most respected kiwi alive, Sir Edmund Hillary, one of the two men who first climbed the mountain and survived.
Climbers generally seem to be of the opinion that it is 'every man for himself' on Everest. There are more than 150 bodies up there, so the media say. Significantly, David was sheltering beside the body of a climber who had perished previously.

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 May 06 - 12:13 AM

As they say, its been going on for a long time and is getting worse. So is the garbage and debris thrown away with the lives. Everest is a giant trash dump, cemetery, and cash cow for the ones who run the "guided ascents."

For a good starter/primer on what has happened, try a book called "Into Thin Air.".....I think the author is John Krakow(sp). You're right.....there is NO romance left........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: Gurney
Date: 27 May 06 - 12:38 AM

I forgot to mention: another 40 or so climbers also passed David on the way up. No-one was coming down at that time in the morning. The weather was good, you see.

The amputee, Mark Inglis, had lost his legs to frostbite, being stormbound on a mountain for a time that escapes me. Something like two weeks! He also cycles competitively.
It looks as if he'll lose a finger-joint from this experience. Some people are hard to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 27 May 06 - 03:13 AM

I suppose if they are driven (gotta climb this mountain), nothing matters.

As the mountain is/was a god to the local people, I wonder what it thinks of all these driven people clambering up it's sides. And the rubbish they leave around it.

Maybe Good Samaritans aren't allowed on Everest. Maybe Good Samaritans don't want to climb sacred mountains.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 06 - 03:32 AM

Jon Krakauer

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 May 06 - 05:31 AM

Thank you Peace and my bad for not taking the time to check it myself.......I get lazier all the time.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 27 May 06 - 05:32 AM

Interesting article. There was another book written about the '96 expedition that Krakauer's book deals with called "The Climb" by Anatoli Boukreev. Boukreev was a guide whose behavior on that that trip was called into question by Krakauer (who subsquently issued an apology, of sorts). Although "The Climb" is not particularly well written or as good a read as "Into Thin Air" (IMO) it's interesting to to juxtapose the two perspectives of the affair.vl

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 06 - 12:06 PM

I climbed for many years when I lived in Washington and other western areas, and I taught climbing with the Mountaineers. I was a member of Everett Mountain Rescue for a number of years and I worked for the Forest Service and the National Park Service during those years. Those agencies have a culture of rescuing park or forest visitors.

Those climbers on Everest can justify all they want that this fellow was beyond hope, if makes them feel better, but they are people I would never consider climbing with because they are driven by ego and the almighty dollar. I have been on climbs that stopped to rescue members of our own party, I have stopped climbs to rescue members of parties completely unknown to me. I have been on climbs when members elected to drop out and wait at a point where they know the party will come back by and they'll all go out together. I've been on parties where people went back down on their own because they knew they could (no crossing of glaciers or large snow fields, a clear route or path to follow, etc.) and the party proceeded without them. Often someone went with them. Of course it is disappointing, but it is the mature thing to do.

All of those decisions were made with the understanding that as individuals we are responsible for ourselves, but as a party, we are responsible for getting all of us back alive. And sometimes (more often than we were happy about) it meant getting other parties off of the mountain, people who weren't properly trained or prepared. Sometimes it was simple. "How do we get down from here?" might be answered with "follow our wands off the glacier," to actually stopping and turning back if someone was injured. It's the price you pay to climb with a good group, you act responsibly with safety as your first concern. The Mountaineers are well-known for this, and the large climbing club has experienced very few accidental deaths in its entire history. That's not to say there are no hotshots in the Mountaineers. I elected not to climb with certain groups because I knew all they were doing was racing up the mountain and back down again, not intent on enjoying the trip, just wanting the peak. But they were safe when they did it.

I could never go climb Everest or those other charismatic peaks, because it isn't really about Mountaineering. I would not be able to walk past an injured person, and I couldn't conceive of joining a party that had the attitude that they could bypass an injured individual or leave me behind if I was "past help."

The man who died made a bad choice in going to Everest to begin with. He didn't deserve to die for it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 06 - 12:16 PM

Everest climber left for dead is found alive
The Associated Press

SYDNEY - An Australian mountaineer who had been declared dead near the summit of Mount Everest has been revived and has come part way down the mountain, reports said Saturday. Lincoln Hall, 50, is being cared for at a camp on Everest at about 20,997 feet, Australian Associated Press reported.

That is some 4,921.26 feet beneath the so-called "death zone," where oxygen levels are so low they cannot sustain life for long. "He's in reasonably good condition, but he doesn't have much memory of things at this stage," climber Duncan Chessell told AAP.

Chessell, who also runs DCXP Mountain Journeys, told AAP he had been in contact with a guide on Everest, Jamie McGuinness, who had passed on the news of Hall's revival.

"Basically, he's been able to come down under his own steam, without assistance, is what Jamie reported," said Chessell, who was speaking from the southern Australian city of Adelaide. Many guides and climbers now carry satellite telephones, making communication fairly reliable even near the summit of the world's highest mountain.

Hall, a highly experienced climber, now must walk or be carried for more than 15 miles to reach the base of the mountain. Simon Balderstone, a prominent member in the Australian mountaineering community, told AAP that Hall had been able to phone his wife in their home outside Sydney.

Balderstone said Hall was being treated by doctors for frostbite and swelling caused by altitude sickness. Hall's survival comes a week after British climber David Sharp died after getting into difficulties on his descent from the summit. Several groups of climbers passed Sharp but did not stop to help.

While altitude sickness can cause anything from severe pain to hallucinations to death, returning to lower altitudes can bring about quick and dramatic improvement. Hall, who had been on a Russian-led expedition, made it to the summit of Everest but grew gravely ill from oxygen deprivation during his descent.

The area near the top of Everest is one of the most difficult environments on Earth, where even the strongest and most experienced climbers can become desperately ill from lack of oxygen. Hall fell ill at around 28,543 feet, shortly below the summit, AAP reported. His two Sherpa guides tried to help him down, but were eventually forced to leave him in order to save themselves, and Hall was then declared dead, AAP reported.

The following morning, an American climber found him alive, sparking a rescue team to help bring Hall to safety.

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 27 May 06 - 01:27 PM

This story has absorbed me as one of the most interesting ethical questions I've seen. There's an overlay of misinformation as to the true facts, which adds multiple dimensions of analysis. There is a debate raging on climbing blogs about the culture of silence regarding the facts of any given death. This is ostensibly to protect the dead climbers' families from grief. However, this Inglis case is disrupting all of that. According to the Inglis scenarios I've read, they found the climber on the way up. They tried to administer oxygen, but without success. One version has Inglis' team ahead of him, and he radioed base camp when he got there, who told him it was a lost cause and to proceed. Another version has him near the front of the group, and he decided that those vastly superior climbers should make the right decision.   But the most striking conflict is between Inglis and some of his group from Australia, who went public very recently. Inglis said they inspected and decided on the way UP. According to two Australians in the group, they saw Sharp on their way up, but passed by thinking it was the body of a Polish climber from an earlier season – It was not until their way down that they learned it was a new person, and that they detected some eye movement but no other sign of life.

Inglis desperately wants a meeting with his hero Hillary, who will probably meet him. I won't be surprised if Hillary moderates his early statements (but I don't know.)

When you boil it down to its simplest fact patterns, ascending or descending makes a huge difference. They said Parks was virtually dead, which is easy to believe. If they were descending, it's easy to believe that the failure to attempt a rescue was made on an ethical basis. However, if they were ascending, as seems likely, they found someone near death with no oxygen and no, or the wrong, gloves. (Facts again are confused. It seems he may have taken off good gloves, or had inadequate gloves altogether.) He had taken two oxygen bottles up, when most carry four or five. There is some implied criticism of his preparations (on this second, solo attempt, without guide or sherpa or companion.)

But when you distill it down: You are ascending the treacherous death zone when you find a man in Parks condition, near death from hypothermia and oxygen deprivation. You have superior clothing and oxygen reserves. Attempting to save him is highly likely to fail and risks the deaths of you or your team. (Inglis passed by nine dead bodies on his descent.) What do you do (After you've invested $80,000 and a lot of ego.)   Same question again, but this time potential rescuers are descending. (It's possible that Inglis' and the Australians' versions are both true from their own perspectives.)

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 27 May 06 - 01:42 PM

wow, that Lincoln Hall story is good news for him and so badly timed for the Park non-rescuers.

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 May 06 - 04:16 PM

Denali, which is not a very difficult climb at all, is getting that way too.

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:05 AM

Great to see the climber they thought was dead is now safe and well

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: Pauline L
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:53 AM

Here is a report http://www.everestnews.com/Summitclimb2005/everesttibet2006disps05302006.htm) from everestnews.com about Lincoln Hall, who was rescued by Dan Mazur on Everest. The everestnews.com people were very distressed about initial false reports saying that Hall had died because nobody who saw him would stop to help him. Dan Mazur, using a satellite phone, had called in his report about rescuing Lincoln Hall. You can listen to his call on the everestnews.com site. The satellite phone had a very good quality audio, unlike my new cell phone.

Update 5/24/2006 (in America): We were able to reach Dan Mazur to ask him a few questions. This was a very brief call.

Here is what Dan told EverestNews.com: When they reached Lincoln Hall, Lincoln was sitting with his legs over the Face. He was half undressed and without a hat. Lincoln's first words were, "I imagine you are surprised to see me here."

His fingers were in bad shape and much of his equipment was gone. Dan said yesterday Lincoln still had a fever and we could tell Dan was still worried about him. Dan, Lincoln and apparently the other team members which were there (we don't know who all at this point) talked while they helped Lincoln. Dan said Lincoln seemed like a nice guy...

We briefly discussed with Dan the FALSE reports which were sent out by others. Dan seems to have no real knowledge of the false reports at this point which is not surprising since he has been busy... Dan did mention two Italians climbers went by them while they were helping Lincoln and that the Italians climbers went up and summited. Before people go speculating about these Italian guys, who knows what they knew and thought was going on when they saw Dan, Lincoln and the others...

Dan said people were taking their pictures and on the sat phones when they got to ABC... Let's hope those reports by others are better than the first ones filed... At this point, only Dan, Lincoln and the others who was there know what happened...

Update 5/24/2006 (in America): Dan Mazur called in and left the following dispatch... (click here to listen)

Editorial Comment: The FALSE reports about Dan and his team are now in the UPI News wires in America; which means they will probably in published in 100's to 1000's of newspapers; information that is FALSE.

Earlier: Dan called, "Hi this is Dan from Summitclimb, we are down from the mountain everyone is fine, everyone is safe. I am going to send a another dispatch when I get to another phone. The minutes are almost out on this phone. We did not summit. We found this guy at about 8600 meters. We gave up the summit."

The connection was very bad. But we got to briefly ask Dan about reports from a fellow named Duncan Chessell, who runs a small commercial company who has an Everest expedition this year, that has announced several items in the last 24 hours without a source. This guy has reported to the world and the media that after Dan stopped at Lincoln and helped him, that Dan with another member went to the summit. "Dan with one client continued to the summit . . . nice one sunshine! Seems like more mountaineering brotherhood classes are required." Duncan is quoted in the papers in Australia.

We asked Dan about this, he replied, " No we waited with him [Lincoln] until help arrived. ... got him on a stretcher and ... bought him [Lincoln] down. The connection kept breaking up... It was very difficult to talk with Dan....

We asked Dan did you all go for the Summit then? Dan answered, "No we went down." Dan seemed very very tired.

We asked Dan about news reports, he seemed not to have heard nothing at this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: heric
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:35 PM

Protecting the privacy of (the deceased's) families certainly does appear to be a load of crap, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: heric
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:52 PM

very cool .jpg showing the locations
of Sharp and Hall

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:52 PM

I'm just thankful that I get my "kicks" in a non-life threatening way!

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:13 PM

I think it is impossible for those of us who have never been to The Death Zone to make valid judgments on the behaviour of those who have. It's a different world, and urban values have no meaning there.
Ask Alan Hinkes.
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:02 AM

Rapaire, Denali is considered a difficult and dangerous mountain Where many have died . Fortunately ther is a team of highly trained climbers /rangers who act as a rescue team every year and are based on the mountain.

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: redsnapper
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:36 AM

I am close friends with a very experienced French Alpine climber who has also climbed in the Himalayas and has led expeditions to remote peaks. I also met several well-known Himalayan climbers while at university. My friend actually lost most of his toes to frostbite while saving a fellow climber in the Alps and the general rule amongst true experienced climbers is that you abandon your own ego if a fellow climber is in trouble.

What is happening on Everest now disgusts me although recent stories do still show there are at least still some real climbers there.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: Alba
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:35 AM

I am inclined to agree Redsnapper.
SRS's post basically summed up how I feel and your post confirmed it. Thank you for bringing Lincoln Hall's rescue to my attention SRS.

I lived in the Alps for a number of Years with my, then, Partner who was a very experienced Alpine Climber. We lived very close to Mont Blanc, outside of Chamonix.
I climbed but not to the more serious degree that he and some of our close Friends do.
The general rule was look after who is on the Mountain or Cliff or in a Canyon. If someone was in trouble. You helped. Simple.
I have always had a strong admiration for the Alpine Rescue Teams, a few of whom, were and are still, my close Friends who put their lives in danger to help those who, for whatever reason,are in need of assistance.

I was so shocked at the way David Sharp's Life meant so little to those that passed him. His 34 year old Life meant nothing to many of those that simply saw him and kept going!
I cannot imagine doing that.
I was however relieved to hear that Lincoln Hall did not meet with the same fate.
There really isn't much else I can say. The news of Lincoln Hall's rescue was a double edged blade really.
How could one Man be saved and another left to die.
Because of Ego? Money?.. on Everest of all places. The top of the World.
A Mountain that was/is considered sacred in the region .....once.

My fear is that David Sharp's Death is more of an illustration of the lack of compassion on this Planet now. Wether it be Climbing a Mountain or walking down the Street or viewing a television.
I fear we are losing our Humanity...that sounds tres dramatic... *very small smile* but I have to say it is a un-nerving glimpse into a rapidly changing Human Race.

Years ago I read a book called " The Last Voyage of the Karluk" written by William Laird Mc Kinlay, a Survivor of a doomed Arctic expedition in 1913.
Now and again I still think of that story and the images it brings to mind.
I will most likely think of David Sharp and his Family now when I hear of Everest, for although I am relieved that Lincoln Hall did not suffer the same fate as David. I wonder if they, like me, will ask themselves why David was left and Lincoln was not.
My Best to All and Thank you for sharing your opinions.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: hilda fish
Date: 31 May 06 - 02:59 AM

This one is an extraordinary one isn't it? What is the value of the sanctity of life? It generally seems to be said that different rules and different ethics apply 'up there' than down here on planet earth. Yet we have the very recent rescue of Lincoln Hall and there have been other rescues, almost as many as the bodies strewn around the summit, where people gave up their ambition, oxygen, etc. Recently in Tasmania Australia many men risked tonnes of earth and rock crashing on them to rescue two of their fellow workers- different situation but good illustration of the 'one life or the many' or 'value life above all'. I have been in situations where sharing the last water in a 47 degree desert offered a chanc e of life for both of us and I know many similar stories. Risking one life against a number doesn't seem to be a factual presentation of the considerations on examination of what has happened in recent decades on that grand old woman Goddess. Many HAVE been rescued in very risky circumstances indeed. Ethically I reject the notion that rules of the value of life and death apply differently to SOME people on ONE particular part of the planet. It is indeed money and ego over human life. As with most notions, an intelligent human being does not need to experience, literally, an event in order to understand and analyse the practical, social, political, or ethical implications to all of us. This event is indeed about the ethical value of a human life over other agendas. The 'one life against many' argument does not hold significant water given the history of climbs over the last two decades (which is not dismissing the risks which are very real). One chooses to ascend and descend and one chooses how one is going to live life and value life up there as much as one does it down here on, dare I say it, ground zero, or, I should have said, planet earth?

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 May 06 - 11:33 PM

It's getting to be just like it is down here.

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: Alba
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 12:05 AM

Indeed M. Ted...indeed! Good to see you:)

Good to see you also Hilda ma Dear, I hope You are doing well. I agree again with your post too.

I am so relieved that I am not alone with my feelings about this Tragedy.

Best Wishes and Blessings as always
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 05:46 AM

I too have read " Karluk" the main point of it was that it was hushed up by the Admiralty because the ship left the men behind to die and when the ship got back told one story thinking those left behind would die. The captain called a hero for getting the ship back. Then lo and behold many of them against all the odds made it back. It was only many years later that the truth came out and he simply sailed away to save himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: nutty
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 12:13 PM

Just goes to show that nothing changes.

We may think that we are a more civilised society that we were 100 years ago but there are still the same amount of good/bad, kind/cruel, caring/selfish, people in this world than before.

Many are still more capable of selfish thought than of global compassion and see the lives of others as easily disposable.

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 04:11 PM

A letter writer to our local paper observed yesterday that those climbers missed out on the chance of a lifetime to save a person's life, and instead ignorantly proceeded to a more shallow reward.

Subject: RE: BS: Everest...at all cost?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 06:18 PM

I am disturbed by this whole story. I find it impossible to understand that anyone could simply leave another person to die, no matter that it be under difficult conditions. They were not under enemy fire.
It is true that people die on mountains, even the most experienced climbers, but it is usually due to unexpected changes in the weather making conditions nasty.
Everest is a treacherous mountain (I am not a climber, but have known climber Alan Hinkes for a number of years - a while since I last crossed paths with him), but the actual climb takes place in a few hours - it is getting acclimatised to the altitude which takes weeks and being fit enough to climb in the low oxygen pressure, not the final ascent.
I cannot understand why the parties could not return the troubled climber to a safer altitude and make their attempt the following day.
Quack!
Geoff.