folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff

Subject: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM

Moved to music section as suggested by various posters.
joe clone

Whenever I read a novel which has place names or proper names in a language I don't know, I always try to figure out how to pronounce them, properly. I've just finished a good yarn called "Simeon's Bride" written by Alison G. Taylor; a murder mystery which takes place in Wales.

Would any of you who are Welsh and/or know how to speak it, please help me out? Here's some of them:

Dewi Prys (one Mudcatter has told me this would be "Dew ee Prees" and normally would be a first name. In the book they are used as a first and last name.)

Also, there is a reference, when one character goes from the west towards Derbyshire (if that's not made up for the book,) up into the Pennines "through Buxton, and into a town distinguished by street after street of Victorian terraced houses, by tall old mills standing foursquare and turreted behind high walls, and by its inhabitants,remnants of invading Saxon hordes, their voices grating, words fouled by flat "a"s and mysterious dialect."

What is meant by "flat 'a's etc.?"

Also, maybe not strictly Welsh, but has anyone ever heard of rubbing stone treads with paraffin to put a sheen on their surface? Or, soured milk if one were too poor to use precious paraffin?

I was also interested in reading a small reference to a Welsh martyr, William Davies, who apparently pissed(US) off QE the First. I can look him up on google, but would still like to hear anything you'd like to share.

I was a bit shocked to see "Nigger" used in the following and wondered if it had a different meaning than I've ever known. (The book was published in 1995.):

..because John Jones was the fly in the psychiatrist's soothing balm, the nasty Nigger poking his head up from the great woodpile of rationalizations and justifications and defences for the indefensible.

Have any of you been to the Menai Straits and/or the Great Orme? What does "Orme" mean?

It would be great fun to learn more about Wales and its culture. I plan to look for more books by Taylor.

Thanks a bunch!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:04 PM

Isn't this folklore and thus destined for the upper region? I got a good reply up there once on the right pron. for Ar Hyd Y Nos.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM

here ya go kat http://www.llandudno.com/orme.html

The Menai Strait is what seperates the Island of Anglesey from the mainland and a great place to sail...

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: sian, west wales
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:56 PM

I think you'd understand the pronunciation better if you thought, "DEwee Prees": "De" with a short e, as in 'pet'. Prees is the beginning of anglicization of ap Rhys - 'son of Rhys'. Price, Brice, Bryce, Breese, et al are all further incarnations of this. As well as the loss completely of 'ap', which gave us all the Rhys or Rees, or even Reeses names. (Happens elsewhere too. i.e. ap Ywain become Owen, Owens, Bowen, Bowens, etc.)

Housewives all over Wales - and I imagine throughout the British Isles - had their little tricks to out-do their neighbours in housekeeping (something to which I can NOT relate) and I've read academic essays about the vanities involved in cleaning the front doorstep of terrace houses. I know that in many parts of Wales where slate doorsteps are the norm, women polished the surfaces in very specific pattern which eventually wore themselves permanently into the surface - a way of expressing yourself creatively in a very dreary world. Seems to me that they had various secrets for making them shine, and paraffin rings a bell ...

The Menai Straits are indeed very popular for sailing but I'll bet Dave can also tell you how perilous they can be. Fast tides.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Mo the caller
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:06 PM

Yes the Great Orme is a hill or headland on Llandudno. I live a few miles from the welsh border and all I know is Ll is pronounced 'cl' (and I expect that's a simplification).

As for the "nigger in the woodpile" it is a saying, like "the fly in the ointment" meaning a disadvantage or drawback (I'm not sure if they mean quite the same). It was certainly used when I was growing up, not so much now perhaps. Though some people get very heated about the "stupidity" of "political correctness" and will insist that e.g. no-one could possibly object to a harmless children's toy (not my view now)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:13 PM

Been to the Great Orme loads of times - seem to remember even having a pint with Mudguard there. Never been on the Menai Straits but crossed lots of times by road.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:15 PM

Derbyshire isn't made up. It's an English county, and very beautiful. If you started from North Wales and headed east, right through Lancashire, you would then find yourself in Derbyshire, roughly halfway across England. Buxton is in the Peak District, which is a National Park. The accent and dialect are very different from Welsh.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 09:07 PM

Depending on the type of stone from which the front doorstep was made, there were a variety of methods of cleaning. A perfectly clean doorstep was paramount in the lives of most town-dwelling women. Happily, fashions have changed!
In the south of England most steps were of Bath or Portland stone - a form of limestone. They were cleaned with a "holystone" and then whitened. I cannot remember the name of the whitening agent (although I sold them when working in my parent@s shop in the '50's) but it was a block the size of a large bar of soap and was used with water. I berlieve the holystone was a block of pumice stone, similar to that used when scrubbing the decks of ships (of for removing hard skin from your feet).
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:52 PM

Thanks, everyone!! That helps me, muchly, to get some things envisioned better in my mind. I should like to see the Great Orme, sometime. DavetheM, fast tides, eh?

Topsie, I though there was a Derbyshire in England, but in the book, it didn't seem that far away from the setting in Wales, so I wasn't sure about the accent. (I forget that several hundreds of miles there can bring one to different countries, unlike out here where it can leave one in the same State as they started in.)

sian, thanks! I had guessed it was Welsh for "Davey." I really appreciate the further explanations and the derivatives. I love languages and love learning more about them.

Mo, thanks. I thought I undertood the "fly in the ointment" kind of thing, but was shocked the author chose to use that word. P.C. or not, it's not one I would choose as a writer.

Bonecruncher, interesting. A friend of mine who'd lived in Germany used to tell me how important it was to the hausfraus to have their front steps perfectly cleaned, swept and polished every morning. I haev sandstone outside my back door. Thankfully, I don't think it can be polished!:-)

Again, thanks to you all. Would love to hear more personal experiences if anyone would like to share...the archealogical stuff at Great Orme, sailing the Menai, etc.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:57 PM

Yes the tidal currents are bad, I prefered sailing from Holyhead. It was there that I learned to love powerboats, because rain, offshore winds and fast tides caused me many a long trip back by rowing ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:56 AM

Try and get hold of the 'Dark is Rising' sequence by Susan Cooper - or at least 'The Grey King'. In that book, Bran (pronounced Brahn) explains the pronounciation of Welsh to Will Stanton in a way that has served me well over the years.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: sian, west wales
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:41 AM

Of course, the other fairly well known factoid about Llandudno is that Alice Liddell's family had a summer home there for several years - she of "Alice in Wonderland" fame. I don't think anyone's ever proven that Lewis Carroll ever was there, but I think there are a few Alice-related touristy things in the area. I remember walking through an Alice 'grotto' in Happy Valley back in the late '50s.

I think I saw a documentary on the Great Orme recently. Interesting. Rare plants, and the bronze age dig especially.

Re: books, the Brother Cadfael (pr. CAD vile) book, "Morbid Taste for Bones", is set just about 10 miles inland from Llandudno, if memory serves.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:47 AM

I'd like to know where the character travelling into Derbyshire was meant to be going. If you come from the west, that will be from Macclesfield, and the next town going west is Bakewell, which has a few mills but isn't exactly replete with them. Even New Mills (for which he'd have to dogleg north-east) isn't the Dickensian dark satanic hell that it sounds, it's actually quite pretty.

As for flat a's, I'll get the tuner out before I speak next time. Think of 'bath'. Dahn sarf, that's pronounced 'bahth', USAians say 'bearth', oop north it's got a short crashing a.

I don't think the folks are remnants of invading Anglo-Saxon whordes(*), I doubt if anyone really wanted to invade Derbyshire , more got pushed there by folks who wouldn't let them stay in the better farmland round about.

It wasn't just the doorstep that got scrubbed with a donkeystone in Salford when I was a kid. In the 'respectable' streets, they scrubbed the whole flag pavement out to the kerb. It's said that when the trams (streetcars to t'other lot) reached Droylsden, the housewives were so houseproud that they blackleaded the tram rails.

(*) Useful word (C)Paul Burke 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: 8_Pints
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 08:29 AM

Hi Mo,

Minor correction: 'Ll' is not pronounced with a 'cl' in my experience but more like 'LAN' where one blows softly through the mouth for the first letter.

Nothing quite like it in English so it is understandable why it is easily mis-pronounced.

Used in combination 'Llanfair' would trabslate to the Church of Mary, or St. Mary's as in the famous Llanfair PG village in Anglesey.

Bob vG

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 09:09 AM

Llandudno being Saint Tudno

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Ferrara
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 09:11 AM

Going back to "a nigger in the woodpile," I heard it used a a kid (1940's). It seemed to mean a hidden problem, like sneaky clauses in the fine print of a contract, or some unpleasant or tricky factor that was being covered up, that wasn't right out in plain sight. Something to watch out for. Or hidden treachery, say on the part of a used car salesman. The image is that if this guy is hidden, he's up to no good.

But that's not how it's used in the quote at the top. There it's more like an unpleasant fact that is revealing itself, that can't be hidden or ignored in spite of efforts to hide it.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 11:44 AM

I certainly concur with Paul on the geography of the place - I have walked around most of the peak district and the mills and terraces are there, but not in the numbers suggested.

What about further south and east into Derbs though? I must admit my knowledge of Derby, Chesterfield and those environs is sadly lacking:-(

As to the Ango-Saxon invaders. Hmmmm. Looks like the writer got their info from this Wikipedia article. Knowing the way that site works I would have serious doubts as to it's veracity! I always thought peak was a corruption of Pict but perhaps Paul can confirm or deny that. Certainly places like the fort on top of Mam Tor are Iron Age and precede the Anglo Saxon invader by a good few centuries.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 11:54 AM

I meant Saxon invader of course. I don't think the Anglo bit came in until they megred with the earlier Angles did it?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: HuwG
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM

As a South Walian expatriate in Northern Derbyshire, I have been looking for any evidence of Welsh place names locally, and found none, with the possible exception of Mam Tor mentioned above by DtG. All settlement names are Anglo Saxon in origin; Hope, or hop, meaning valley, is a common root, as is "ton", meaning town.

Going due east from North Wales you actually hit Staffordshire; but it doesn't require much compass deviation to get to Macclesfield. The mill towns of Derbyshire occupy the valleys which wind into the uplands of the "Dark Peak". From the description at the head of the thread, the mill town may have been Bollington, adjacent to Macclesfield. (Going north you have in turn, New Mills, Glossop, Mossley.)

The road from Macclesfield to Buxton is known as the Cat and Fiddle Road, from a pub which stands at the highest point. It is known for a steady toll of motorcycle deaths every summer, as the rider every bike over 250cc in half the north west of England tries to prove they are the next "Foggy" (motorcycle champion Carl Fogarty).

The "Dark Peak" rocks are Upper Carboniferous (Pennsylvanian) shales, sandstones and grits. Buxton lies in the "White Peak", in Lower Carboniferous (Mississippian) limestones.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:31 PM

Looks like all the waters around Angelsey can be dodgy. Just read this which gave me a bit of a chuckle. Could have been nasty though!

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:10 PM

HuwG, you've got it, I think. I wasn't sure if she'd made up towns' and pubs' names or not, so didn't include the further info. She DID write, "Beyond Macclesfield, he began the long climb into the Pennines, stopping for dinner at the Cat and Fiddle Inn on the crest of a high moor, before the last leg of his journey through Buxton, and into a town" (see rest of paragraph posted above.)

So, does is make more sense to those of you who were wondering about her geography? Sorry I didn't include that bit in the previous quote. It also mentions the character checking into "a small hotel at the foot of Snake Pass..."

Jon, the puir idgits...good thing the Coast Guard was there!

Thanks, all!!

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:21 PM

That makes sense kat, although I've never yet managed a pint in the Cat and Fiddle which is the route we have used mostly when going to from Norfolk/N Wales.

The Snake is another road. Sheffield to Glossop.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Crane Driver
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:34 PM

"Orme" is from an old Norse word meaning "serpent" - the Great Orme is a serpentine rock formation sticking out to sea. Rather like the Worm's Head near where we live. The Vikings settled around the coast of Wales, and a lot of place names are Norse rather than Welsh - Swansea was originally "Sweyne's Ey" from an island settlement by a Viking called Sweyn (a common Norse name). Rhossili is pronounced much as it looks - Rossilly - but what would you make of Cwmrhydiceirw?

Andrew

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM

Welsh (or perhaps Celtic?) place names in Derbyshire - Try Kinder Scout. I believe it to be derived from something akin to Cwm dy scwd - Sorry, can't find the proper translation or spelling!

I am sure I read it somewhere. Perhaps I dreamt it as I sunbathed on Kinder and was burnt to a cinder...

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: HuwG
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 08:24 PM

Guess who lives in Glossop, at one end of the Snake Pass ?

The "... small hotel at the foot of the Snake Pass" might be either the "Royal Oak", a pub/bed and breakfast on the main road itself, or the "Wind in the Willows", a residential two-star place opposite the Golf Course, about half a mile from the main road on a lane known locally as the "Derbyshire Level" (it follows the 600' contour line).

The Snake Pass incidentally (also referred to as the A57), got its name from a pub near to the Glossop end; the "Snake Inn" was named from the coat of arms of the Cavendish family, which featured a snake, and the road was historically the "Snake Inn Pass". Over time, the road has become known as "The Snake" and the inn as the "Snake Pass Inn". It does run through some of the best scenery in England. (No part of England compares with any in Wales).

The name implies a tortuous winding road. In fact, it is not too bad, but parts of it traverse active landslide surfaces, and the road develops cracks and sudden dips and "ski jumps". It is a never-ending job maintaining the road about a mile east of the inn; there is a veritable stratigraphy of layers of tarmac and hasty patches.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 08:46 PM

LOL, I love it, HuwG! Thanks for such descriptive passages. That "Hasty Patches" sounds like the name of a a fast cow pony in these parts. This is too kewl!!

Forgot to say thanks to LtS for the book receommendations. Also, I have seen the Brother Cadfael BBC programs and look forward to reading the books.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: leeneia
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 10:53 PM

I've developed a theory about the mysterious Welsh "Ll,"

I learned from my voice teacher that English uses L to represent two different sounds. One is at the front of the mouth, as in "like." The other is at the back of the throat, as in "old."

If you make the L as in "old" and hold it, you produce a sibilant which I think is the Welsh Ll. I think this explains why a sound which I thought was related to ch was spelled Ll.
------
Thanks for talking about the book, kat. I will look for Alison G. Taylor at the liberry.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:06 AM

Bollington - has mills, but is quite pleasant and due north from Macc. New Mills and Glossop in a straightish line north. Cat and Fiddle due east, straight on to Buxton. Chesterfield right out past the peak, some mills but more steelworks. Wirksworth small and pleasant, had mills in a rural environment, making government red tape (true!!). Derby out of the peak, south west, mills and urban poverty (cf King of Rome).

But to get to the Snake from Buxton you have to go north, via Hayfield and Glossop, so perhaps Glossop or hadfield is what's meant.

The Anglo-Saxon period is very confusing culturally. We really don't know whether the indigenous population was exterminated or ethnically cleansed by invaders, died of plague, or lived on and converted to the Saxon language (like most Irish speak english, but are still ethnically Irish). My bet is a combination of all three, with death and eviction reserved mainly for the landowning classes, as few people would cross 150 miles of rough sea in an open boat to get up at 5 on a winter's morning to shovel manure. They'd prefer to take over the workforce intact.

There are quite a few names indicating continuity- a lot of Waltons (the Briton's farm), and almost all the river names (Dove, Noe, Derwent, Trent, Amber, Goyt, Wye....). And interesting hints that Christianity might have continued from Roman times through Saxon times, in a number of Eccles place names (Latin Ecclesia, Welsh Eglwys, but English Church). I have my own ideas about Augustine's mission which belong in another discussion.

It seems that land ownership became much more of an issue in Saxon times, as Welsh names seem to show a preponderance of toponymics and dedications to saints, while Saxon names are predominantly in the form of (xxx)'s (feature), as Osmaston, Wirksworth, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: sian, west wales
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:18 AM

No, the Ll can't be pronounced from the back of the throat (if I follow you, leeneia). The tongue position is the same for both examples, isn't it? So, place your tongue in the L position and blow out. That's "ll". Of course, you can then get into the Welsh learners' argument re: blowing equally on each side, blowing on the left only, or right only, and are these differences attached to regional predelictions. I mean - please, get a life, eh?

(Ch is like the German one - but I always feel that it's lighter, less phlegmy.) (Is phlegmy a word?)

Dave, you might have something with Kinder Scout. I doubt if the names of settlements would have any great Welsh connection but geographical features would be more likely to hold on to old names (i.e. prior to the Saxons or Angles or whoever it was took over once the Welsh retreated to the western hills). Derbyshire would have been 'Welsh' at a time when the Welsh language had evolved from an earlier, and more general, 'Celtic' language.

Cwm Ysgwyd would be the valley that shakes. So - either it was prone to earthquakes (not impossible) or we're getting to a point where we should stop making clumsy stabs and find ourselves a proper linguist! And that certainly wouldn't be me!

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: HuwG
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:24 AM

Earthquakes ... not really. Landslides, however, are far more likely. Mam Tor is known as the "shivering mountain". The engineers who tried to put the A624 across its face really ought to hang their heads in shame.

I once attended a meeting of the Yorkshire Geology Society, in which someone calculated when the Mam Tor landslide will stabilise. He reckoned in about nine hundred years or so. He couldn't say whether that will be morning or afternoon.

Most Peak District landslides result from glacial oversteepening (glaciers gouge valleys into a 'U' shape with steep walls), combined with the geology, which has the competent Kinder Grits (coarse sandstones) above the less competent Mam Tor shales and Yoredale series (mixed shales and sandstones). In this context, "competent" means able to maintain its integrity. The shales are liable to slump, or flow or deform; and are also less resistant to erosion and undercutting by streams.

The result is some spectacular rotational slip landslides; mostly during the aftermath of the last ice age. However, "landslide" doesn't necessarily mean a catastrophic collapse. Landslides can proceed quietly over a period of hundreds of years, as in the case of Mam Tor, or the slumping which affects the Snake Pass (which I mentioned in a post above).

There are the traces of several such slips on the north-eastern face (i.e. the Hayfield side, adjacent to Kinder Downfall) of Kinder Scout, although movement on these seems to have stabilised. If they were still active in the iron age or whenever, then "Cwmysgwyd" might well be a deserved descriptive name for the hill. Well done, Sian. I stand corrected.

Kinder Scout does possess local names for some of its features which are undoubtedly Anglo-Saxon in origin. "Fairbrook Naze", "Grindsbrook" ("Ringing Roger"? I can't find any Celtic roots in that name). But the hill is a big feature.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: sian, west wales
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:42 AM

Did I correct you? Would I?? I think I was just following up on Dave's comment which sounds like it may have started us in the right direction after all. He mentioned 'sgwd' which I realized would be 'ysgwyd'. Dialectically, opening 'y's are usually dropped. Other things happen in spoken Welsh, i.e. 'sgytwad' would be a Swansea valley way of saying 'a shake' as in I've had a shake, or a shock. (There are attempts to get sgytwad used for 'milkshake' but my gang prefer 'sigldi-fuwch' - or shakey cow. Hasn't caught on - yet.)

The 'Welsh', or those Celts who had begun to speak and write in something recognizable as Welsh, would have been up as far as t'other side of Edinburgh in the 6th Century so that's why I thought it was late enough for the geographical features to be Welsh, but for the actual villages to be more a mark of those who came after.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:46 AM

This is becoming fascinating:-) The Valley that shakes certainly fits the bill. One of the most spectacular view you can get from a road in England is, in my opinion, as you come over the high pass between the Hope valley and the vale of Edale with Mam Tor on your right - The vale of Edale spreads out before you with Kinder looming in the background like a giant dinosaur dropping. Having walked across the top of it I can assure you that this description is even more apt then:-)

Is Kinder the only place in the country where the highest point is called a 'low' btw? Kinder Low is one of the many trig points on Kinder and, if I remember rightly, the highest!

The Welsh / celtic naming of mountains on the pennines is perhaps more common than people think. Of the top of my head there are at least 2 in Yorkshire - Pen-y-ghent and Gragareth both sound pretty Celtic to me. Although I guess the latter should have been Gragaredd? I am sure there are loads more.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:48 AM

I must get round to reading the Mabinogion btw - I have had a copy, beaultifly illustrated by Alan Lee, for years but never got round to it - Trying to pronounce the words has always put me off;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 09:22 AM

An offshoot, perhaps...speaking of the geological formations, I am reminded of the next book I have picked up, "Ireland" by Frank Delaney, in which the old Storyteller starts out by describing the way the land became formed through migration of a HUGE ice flow, etc. Fascinating as is this thread. Thanks so much and please continue!

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 09:47 AM

Kat,

You can find all the Welsh (and Derbyshire) places on http://maps.google.co.uk/. Clicking on "satellite" will get you an aerial photograph instead of the map. You can also plot the journey from say, Llandudno to Buxton or the Cat & Fiddle to the Snake Pass.

Happy hunting

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 11:19 AM

You will enjoy the book, kat. There are others I have enjoyed better, but this one has a very good story line, fairly factual basis, but a fairly predictable ending. Overall though, a good read.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 12:37 PM

Siân:
(Is phlegmy a word?) If it is it would be good for Scrabble players....

Quick run downstairs, check "Official Scrabble Words" (2nd edition)

... Yep, it's in there, so I feel confident it's a valid word, though I would not wish to appear too phlegmatic on the matter.

If anyone has a contrary opinion, come on, spit it out!

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: sian, west wales
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 01:49 PM

Right. This Christmas, at the family Scrabble game, my sister is going DOWN. If it's the only word I put down all night ... !

Dave, I guess it could be Graig (rock) Garwedd or Garw (coarse, rugged). Pen y Ghent is top or head of something but I wouldn't want to offer an opinion on 'ghent'; not a Welsh word as it stands, but could be deteriorated from various things. A linguist would probably know ...

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:30 PM

(Is phlegmy a word?)

It is now.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:00 PM

I was once told that Pen-y-ghent meant hill of wind. Wikipedia says it means 'top of ghent'. Which is very useful;-) There are lots of Norse place names in the area as well so there could be some of that around. Following the dales north from there (Ribblesdale) there is Chapel-le-dale and the Kingsdale (vi-kings apparantly.) Gragareth stands to the North of that. At the head is Yordas cave - Yorda being a Norse giant with a liking for little boys. Social Services here I come...

Back to Welsh pronunciation I was once driving around Wrexham looking for a little place called Llay. Knowing about the 'Ll' I asked a local for directions.

"Ooooh, let me see now. Llay? Llay? No don't know it. Oh, hang on, you mean Ll -eye..."

I'm sure you Welsh buggers make it up just to confuse us English invaders:-)

Once in a pub in Clynnog Fawr on the Lleyn peninsula (go on - talk us through that) I overheard a conversation in Welsh. I recognised the bit when one bloke said "F^&*ing Black and Decker" :D

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:24 PM

Used to pass through a train station where the name board was longer than the bloody platform.

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwyll-llantysiliogogogoch

The name translates as "The church of St. Mary in the hollow of white hazel trees near the rapid whirlpool by St. Tysilio's of the red cave" in Welsh.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: sian, west wales
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:08 PM

Ah! Ghent = gwynt = wind. Well, that makes sense then!

A few years ago a bunch of Welsh speakers agreed to meet up after work in a pub near Westminster - they all worked in government circles. One of them - an MP as it happens - showed up late and stopped at the bar to get his drink before joining the group. He was accosted by a businessman who had a skinful and who said, "See them f*cking Welsh there babbling away? They're f*c%ing talking about ME." So the MP looks surpised and wonderfully sympathetic and replies, "Really !!!??? So, did you hear them say c%nt or f%ckin'?" "No," says the drunk. "Oh," says the MP, "then they weren't talking about you, were they?" took his drink and joined his friends. I know this is true because the story was getting garbled on the jungle telegraph so the MP in question told me the actual story himself.

Yep - the whole language is a ruse set up so us Welsh buggers can have a laugh at you English buggers. Works good, eh? Our AGM will be in Pontrhydfendigaid this year.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: HuwG
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:25 PM

Llanfair = Church of St. Mary (Mair)
Llandudno = Church of St. Tudno

Ah, the joys of the Soft Mutation (Y treiglad meddal). And there are others. Mutation of the leading letter of a word is (as far as I know) unique to Celtic or Gaelic languages. It makes following a sentence with a dictionary nearly impossible unless you already know the relevant grammar, as a word will mysteriously begin with one letter, but belong elsewhere entirely.

Yes, we do it to annoy !

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:25 PM

I believe it was renamed to "put itself on the map", Dave. Whatever, most people I know would call it Llanfair PG.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:14 PM

I thought it was in Llamedos?

Or Llareggub

Depending on whther you like Terry Pratchett or Dylan Thomas.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:25 PM

Had a lot of fun trying to pronounce it, and the more beer you drank the easier it got.:)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Bert
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:31 PM

Actually no two Welsh people pronounce the words the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave4Guild
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:35 PM

Ah, the mutations, Huw!
Treiglad trwynol, a treigled llais, seems to ring a bell!
Even more annoying.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: HuwG
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 09:36 PM

I have been pondering on the subject of the "Flat 'A'", discussed in the opening post of this thread.

If the mill town mentioned is indeed Glossop (which, on re-reading the first post, seems more and more likely), then the local accent is more Mancunian than Derbyshire. The true Derbyshire accent (found in the heart and east of the county), doesn't seem to me to be too different to Yorkshire; glottal stops replacing the word "the", and the 'A' sound dragged out to several seconds.

Locally, though, the main accent encountered among the young is the slurred mixture of "rat-arsed" (drunk) and Mancunian. Practically nothing can be heard but vowel sounds.

...

"Mills behind high walls" ... Most mills when I first moved to the place backed directly onto the roads; driving past them was a slightly unnerving experience of driving through a blackened stone canyon. A series of fires in the 1990's, some caused accidentally, others by vandals, cleared many of the unused mills. (Some have been converted to other industrial use and are still in use.)

One mill, which did sit behind high walls, was the biggest, the Wren Nest Mill. This was once a very large complex; a Tesco's store and other shopping centres now occupy much of the site. Half of the surviving mill building burned down in a spectacular blaze in 1995, started by vandals. The remaining half is now being converted into flats. (The mill was close enough to my home that the blaze melted the windscreen wipers on my car.)

I have some photographs of the conflagration. I'll see if I can get them scanned and posted somewhere.

Glossop, and other mill towns have changed very much in the twenty years since I moved in. The terraced streets are still there, but the population has almost doubled in the last two decades, and all new housing is estates of detached houses, with 2.4 cars per household, and names like "Shirebrook" and "Lower Bank". What has not doubled is the means of getting all these people and cars out in the morning and back in the evening.

The traffic jams are depressing, and the railway service, while not inadequate, goes to the wrong places. (It is the former "Manchester, Sheffield and Lincoln Railway", and still has some spectacular viaducts at Dinting and Broadbottom.) It calls at stations in North Manchester and at Manchester Piccadilly in the centre; but most Glossop commuters go to Stockport and South Manchester. So, there is no option but to take the car.

...

Glossop's expatriate Welsh community did once try and muster a "Glossop Druids" team to participate in the local Rugby Sevens tournament. We came up two players short.

I am practising a few Welsh tunes for the various informal sessions I attend. A "leek and daffodil" set might add nicely to the "Lurpak", "Bagel" and "Brie" sets many of the regular attendees do. (Those are Norwegian Hardanger Fiddle tunes, Klezmer tunes and French bourees and other musical styles.)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:52 AM

they could easily run a Glossop to Stockport train, there's already one (just one) between Stalybridge and Stockport, calling at Guide Bridge on the way.

What's in the klez set? And how do you get a set of Hardanger fiddle tunes, I mean, it's hard enough to tell if there's a tune even in the one...

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:11 PM

Since I didn't realise she used a lot of real palce names, I didn't post as much in the first post as maybe I ought've. Here's a little bit mroe info on the setting:

Most of the mystery investigation centers around a town named "Salem," "Castle Woods," and "Snidey Castle Estate," also "Dorabella Quarry."

Oh, also, how would one pronounce the name "Eifion?"

Thanks,

Kat

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:38 PM

ay-veeon

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: 8_Pints
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:01 AM

Welsh has no letter 'V' so uses 'F' to give the same sound: 'FF' is a separate letter and is pronounced 'eff' equivalent to the English 'F'.

Confusing isn't it?

Bob vG

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:25 AM

Yes! It is! But, I am trying, so please keep educating, you all!:->

Thanks, Jon!

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:39 AM

Just to remind you of Snuffy's hint, kat. Also there is multimap. Multimap does turn up a Salem in N Wales which might fit with the Menai Straits. (see here).

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:50 PM

I find the f and ff quite easy - we do it in Enlish with of and off. What I find realy confusing is the multiple consonants - Like dd (pronounced th) and twdd (pronounced tooth:-) ). Even more so the varying vowels. And if you have ever suffered from varying vowels you will know what I mean..;-)

Gi' us a quick lesson Sian:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: BanjoRay
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:15 PM

In the nineteenth ane early twentieth century there was a climbing club in the Peak District called the Kyndwr Club - I wonder if that was from an old Welsh version of Kinder? It would mean something like "In front of the water" or maybe "the water at the front" which would correspond with Kinder Downfall, a superb waterfall dropping from the Kinder Plateau.
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:21 PM

A superb waterfall indeed, Ray, if there is any water about! Magnificent when the wind blows up from Hayfield and turns the waterfall back from where it came Even better when it freezes in the same circumstances. Trouble is you need to visit it at least 10 times to see it like that once! I must start doing it again:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:47 AM

The name is pure English, and derives from some hiker who was caught by it as the wind was blowing the water about. Drenched to the skin and shivering, he named the waterfall "****'kin d-downfall!".

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: sian, west wales
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:25 AM

If 'kyn' is 'cwm' then 'kyndwr' would be the valley of the water - stream or lake, I would imagine.

'Dd' is 'th' as in 'this' not as in 'tooth'. 'Th' represents the sound in 'tooth'.

Vowels aren't really that difficult IF ... oh - I was going to say they aren't IF you can think in Welsh phonetics and try to forget everything you know about English phonetics BUT I have to admit that regional dialects throw a monkey wrench in those particular works.

Oh well - it's what makes languages interesting I guess. I started a Spanish-through-the-medium-of-Welsh class earlier this year. Now THAT's ... interesting.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:34 AM

DtG: The vowels do not vary (with the exception of 'y').However there are more of them, particularly if you include the accented ones.
a: as in cat
â: as in path (there again some pronounce path with the 'a' as in cat, so asking the English speaking to understand this is difficult!)
â: as in car (that's better!)
e: as in get, egg etc.,
i: as in tin, bin
o: as in got, dock
u: as ee in week or see
w: as oo in good
^w: as 'o' in womb. (the circumplex should be over the 'w', but that's not a stadard ASCII character)
y(1): as ea in tea, or as y in funny
y(2): as 'u' in pun, fun
To clarify the different pronunciations of 'y' I quote from the Collins-Spurrell learners dictionary.
Y(1) In monosyllables generally, and in final syllables
Y(2) In all but final syllables, and in y, yr(the),fy(my),dy(thy),yn, yng, ym (in), the adverbial yn, the preverbal and relative particle y, yr (y'm, y'th etc),syr (sir), nyrs (nurse)

Dipthongs, or double vowels, are pronounce with both vowel sounds as above, so for example au is pronounced as a(from cat) ee. which when spoken quickly together gets the sound 'eye'

All the above is relative, and there are pronunciation differences with Welsh accents (North, South & West Wales)

Any corrections later by Siân gratefully accepted

CHEERS (Hwyl Fawr)
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:38 AM

And repeating Wysi's comment early in the thread,
Shouldn't this be above the line?
We need a pronunciation guide for Welsh songs.
Or would a separate thread with the knowledge gleaned from threads over the years be better?

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 05:08 AM

>> If the mill town mentioned is indeed Glossop (which, on re-reading the first post, seems more and more likely), then the local accent is more Mancunian than Derbyshire. The true Derbyshire accent (found in the heart and east of the county), doesn't seem to me to be too different to Yorkshire; glottal stops replacing the word "the", and the 'A' sound dragged out to several seconds. <<

Huw, sounds like I've been living in Glossop about as long as you (24 years), but I'd say that when you hear a proper Glossop accent from an older native it's significantly different from Greater Mancunian. Certainly these people wouldn't be happy to hear they don't have a "true" Derbyshire accent. Of course it's not much like Erewash Valley "Eh Up Mi Duck" lingo either, but it's a lot softer than urban Manc. The Lancashire accent grades into Derbyshire around here, just as Yorkshire-speak does around Chesterfield.

>> Locally, though, the main accent encountered among the young is the slurred mixture of "rat-arsed" (drunk) and Mancunian. <<

Sadly true these days. Incidentally, I always thought there was a suspicion that the "vandals" who burned down various mills were not unconnected with developers wishing to cirmumvent Listed Building status. Or was that just a conspiracy theory?

>> I am practising a few Welsh tunes for the various informal sessions I attend. A "leek and daffodil" set might add nicely to the "Lurpak", "Bagel" and "Brie" sets many of the regular attendees do. <<

If one of those sessions is the Monday Globe, please note I'm hoping to persuade American concertina whizz Jody Kruskal to get down there on Monday next. So you might get some "Apple Pie" as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:19 AM

In my experience, it's nothing like as simple as that... a friend brought up on Anglesey pronounces eu as eh-u where the u is like the German u-umlaut. Other people from only a few miles away pronounce it almost like 'eye'.

Reminds me of the friend of a friend who spent all day wandering round Wales looking for the village he could see on lots of signposts- Llwybr Cyhoeddus.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:06 AM

I don't think you can drive there, Paul. I have only ever seen it on signs for public footpaths to it...

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:34 AM

Can't think why that should be Dtg.

Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:58 AM

Phlegmy-Gent?

Please use spittoon!!

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:34 PM

My tongue is really challenged by this thread!**bg** Thanks, again!!

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Mo the caller
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:55 PM

"Llwybr Cyhoeddus." ???
Tell us then.
(and how to say it if it's something we might need in a hurry)

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:24 PM

Public footpath, Mo

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:49 AM

Local names around Glossop; Combes Edge, local name for the escarpment behind the village of Charlesworth.

Cwm, sometimes found elsewhere in English as "coombe" is also a cirque, French for the steep-sided vale which is also the birthplace of a glacier. Combes Edge certainly qualifies as one.

I'll keep looking, but as has been posted earlier, local inhabited place names follow Anglo-Saxon possessive names (e.g. Simmondley is presumably Simon's Ley, a "ley" being a clearing or enclosure), although a few do have non-possessive but definitely Anglo-Saxon descriptive names; Hayfield, Broadbottom.

Few Celtic descriptive names seem to have survived; there are no cefns (ridges), moels (hills), nants (streams) or coeds (woods, not nubile scholars !)

Welsh "oe" is pronounced as English "oi"; moel could be rendered as "moil" (or "mohel" ?), "coed" as "coid".

Tintwistle (locally pronounced "tinsel") might have a derivation from "Ty" (house), but "wistle" ? Nearby "Holybank" might also derive from "heol" street, but this refers only to a local quarry.

My incomplete reading of the history of the Peak District suggests that the Roman occupation of the area was quite as genocidal as anything else they managed (cf Tacitus's quote, "They made a desert and called it peace"). It is possible to surmise that they left nobody around to remember the Celtic names, although it is difficult to imagine that no culture moved back in during the 300 to 400 years before the Anglo-Saxons arrived. There are few traces of Roman occupation other than at Buxton (which they called Aquae Arnemetiae), and a fort near Gamesley, named Ardotalia but renamed Melandra Castle by Victorian fantasists, and in any case abandoned around 180 AD.

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 05:48 AM

"LLwybr" is presumably from the same root as "liberal" and "liberty" - i.e. a path that can be freely used.

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:42 AM

Hi Kat,

Have been following this thread for a while as I'm a welsh-american and interested in the history, culture and music of my heritage. There's a songbook called 'Blodnau'r Grug' which has 100 Welsh traditional folk dance tunes. Robin Huw Bowen(Welsh triple harpist) did the revision. The book is available in music stores(I got mine at a place called 'Gog's' in Llandudno), but the address of the publisher is: Andrew Bartholomew, 12 Rockwood Ave., Llandaf, Cardiff, UK, CF5 2NP.

Welsh Guitar by Michael Raven is another very good book/cd combination available. It's solo guitar and several of the tunes found in the above collection are contained in this one, too. It's available from: Michael Raven c/o Eve Raven, Yew Tree Cottage, Jug Bank, Ashley Market Drayton Shropshire TF9 4NJ Tel:[phone]

Sian James has a release called 'Gweini Tymor' which has a dozen or so songs sung only in Welsh. It's available from Sain Records which is located in Caenarfon...Kaye(as in the Scottish 'aye' meaning 'yes')nar-von though I don't know the address. A googlesearch would come up with any and all info, no doubt.

Hope this info is helpful as I've a special place in my heart for North Wales and have visited several times and intend a return visit early next year. Close friends teach at the St. David's College in Llandudno and I've done the session/open mic(Monday nights) at the Malt Loaf in Conwy a few times...always a pure joy.

If/when you visit be sure to stay at the youth hostel in Bangor as it's pretty centrally located and reasonabley priced. There's, also one in Rowan that's rural, a bit rougher, but completely delightful. And above all practice the correct pronunciation of Betws-y-coed. It's NOT 'Betsy-co-ed' like I said before being gently, but firmly corrected...'Bet00se-ah-coyd'. It's like being in NYC and pronouncing Houston St. as Hughston...the locals hate it.

One more suggestion if I may. Your choices are London, Liverpool, Manchester, etc. for flights, but I would highly recommend flying(550-900.00US-RdTr) into(and out of) Dublin from JFK(It's non-stop...6.5 hours...and arrives about 6:30AM local time). Take a taxi from the airport to the Stenna Line ferry in Dun Laoghaire(Pron: Done Leary(20-30mins@approx 30.00US). Ferry takes about 75-110 mins(depending on weather) to arrive in Holyhead(get a round trip ticket-approx 75.00US). Take the train to Bangor(3 blocks from the ferry...again round trip unless you return from elsewhere, of course) and a taxi to the IYH-Bangor or a BB of your choosing.

There's plenty or nothing to do as you choose. I stood for two hours at the window of my friends' townhouse in Trefriw(small village south of Conwy on the vale)and watched a sheppard w/a border collie and 2 pembroke corgis herd a small flock of sheep through 4-5 different fields. Was awestruck.

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:52 AM

I know all I keep saying is THANKS, but I really mean it, folks! This is so tremendously interesting and delightful AND so full of learning.

Jeff, thanks for such detailed info. I will definitely look into some of the music you mentioned. It will be a while before I can think of visiting over there, but it is wonderful to have first-hand info available. I have friends who both have cousins, aunties and uncles in Wales. They visited a few years ago and shared their adventures and photos with me. I know one of the places I would HAVE to visit is the National Library.

I am gald to say you have confirmed for me, I at least knew how to pronounce Caenarfon!:-)

Thanks, folks!!!

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Anne Lister
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:05 PM

And just to confuse the issue, here in Gwent as in the Cardiff area we have a distressing habit of pronouncing Welsh place names exactly as we please - most famously Caerphilly becomes Kerfilly (and don't worry about that double l sound!). My two favourites are Maesycwmmer, known to the locals as Massy, and Croesyceiliog, known locally as Crossy. And the wonderfully French named Fleur de Lys, known as Flower.
A friend did wonder why all the hotels were called Gwesty, though, and has been trying to spot the slow Arafs marked on the roads (are there any fast ones?).
Should we tell her?

Anne (in Pontypool)

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:59 PM

Oh, great, more to learn!LOL

I might've known...always do a search before starting a new thread. I was looking for an old thread, Mrs. Pavane Sings Welsh, to let you all know about it, in case you missed it the first time around (she does a BEE-YOU-TEE-FULL job, like my use of the double el?:-), and what did I find, but a thread title asking for the correct pronunciation of Dewi!.

Note to self: One must never forget what an incredible archive Mudcat is!

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:06 PM

"Llwybr" is path. "Cyhoeddys" means public. Adjectives mostly go after the noun in Welsh.
Mary

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 08:10 PM

Thanks for the correction Mary - and I was feeling SO clever.

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Anne Lister
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:54 AM

If any Mudcatters on the other side of the Pond (or elsewhere outside Wales) want to come and visit, can I put in a plug for our new venture, which is a writer's retreat here in Pontypool? Best to check out the embryonic website
for full details ...*s*

Anne

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Anne Lister
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:55 AM

Bother ... blue clicky didn't work ... website is http://www.plasawen.com

Anne

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,sian west wales sans cookie for some reason
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 04:29 AM

Llwybr cyhoeddus is pronounced LlOOEE bir cuh HOI this, remembering what we said about "Ll" above. All Welsh words have the accent on the penultimate syllable.

Huw, 'wistle' could be something to do with 'gwestu' meaning 'to lodge' or 'gwystl', 'to pledge'.

Jeff, I believe Blodau'r Grug is out of print, although I think you can still find it in music shops where the stock doesn't move quickly. There's a follow on volume, Cadw Twmpath, which is still available but the standard sessions tunes are mostly in Blodau'r Grug. There are a few others around too. Sian James has just brought out a new 'folk' album but I haven't heard it yet. Of course, she is one of many and there are CDs available for every taste, cerdd dant to cajun, vocal, instrumental, archival to experimental. There are links to a lot of today's groups at www.trac-cymru.org.

sian

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 05:35 AM

Is Gogs still going, jeff? I know Paul who was the last of the original owners packed in but I don't know if anyone else took over.

The "session/open mic" you mention is actually the Conwy Folk Club and (as far I know - I don't live in the area now) they have Guest nights as well as singers nights. The sessions happen before the start and during the break - started by accident really - most of us who started it also played in a session in Llandudno.

I'm not a bluegrass lover but I used to go to Trefriw during the Bluegrass Festival weekend. I thought that made a much better venue for the event than Bodlondeb, Conwy.

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Alba
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:31 AM

Here's a link for Tabster/Anne's website: Writer's retreat in Pontypool

Looks wonderful.
Good luck with new venture Tabster:)
Jude

Subject: RE: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Anne Lister
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 12:33 PM

Thanks, Jude ... all we need now are the writers!

Anne

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:52 PM

I take it that English is a second language in Wales?

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:18 AM

I thought Welsh was a second language in Wales.
A couple of generations ago Welsh was beaten out of school pupils, now in some schools the teaching is in Welsh.
But that's hearsay, someone will give the whole story.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Anne Lister
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:41 AM

It depends entirely on where you are in Wales. In some areas, Welsh is the first language, while in others it's English. Signs throughout Wales are bilingual, as are official documents, messages on ATMs and lots more. There are Welsh language channels on tv and radio. For an increasing number of jobs it's important to have a good knowledge of both languages. Here in south east Wales all schools are encouraged to use Welsh for a lot of instructional language (sit down, line up, stop talking, doing the register, sorting out school lunches, asking permission for leaving the class etc) as well as teaching the language formally, and there are an increasing number of Welsh medium schools (my nephew and niece attend one of these) which are an attractive proposition to parents as standards of achievement and behaviour are high.

Yes, in the past there were attempts to suppress the language and children speaking Welsh in class were punished, but there's been a huge resurgence of interest and pride in the language since the 1960s and the language is strong and healthy.

Anne in Pontypool

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: sian, west wales
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:35 AM

Well answered, Anne.

Just thought I should add a bit for Huw re: gwystl - it can also mean 'hostage', that is, a person who is left as a pledge for some future act. You could build up an interesting story for the place based on that!

sian

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Paul Burke
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:00 AM

A few points- Derbyshire was scarecely deserted in Roman times, though probably quite thinly populated. As I said before, it's not a residence of choice, at least in the days before easy transport and consequent appreciation of wild beauty.

The (lost but existence certain) lead mining centre of Lutudarum was somewhere around the south Peak district. There were potteries near Duffield, forts with their vici (shops, businesses, wives and floozies) at Chesterfield, Derby, Brough (Navio- the river is still the Noe) and Glossop (Ardotalia, romantically also called Melandra) and also probably at Buxton and Carsington. there was quite a network of roads, the ones that are marked on maps only a sample. There was a Romano- British settlement at Roystone Grange, and one is believed to have existed at Bonsall, but that was unexcavated when it was (illegally) quarried away a few years ago.

"Twistle", not "wistle"- it's a Norse word for the land in a fork in a river or stream.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: sian, west wales
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:32 AM

Ah. That's one word sorted then.

sian

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:29 AM

Further to Tabster's posting above: My Nain ( Grandmother) who was born and bred in Aberffraw , Anglesey told me that she was beaten by her schoolteachers if she spoke Welsh anywhere in school - even in the playground. As a monolingual Welsh speaker you can imagine the hard time she had of it. Most of the other village children would have been in the same position.
I cannot imagine the reason for such cruelty, yet I believe that something similar happened in Brittany many years back in order to suppress the Breton language.
When I first moved to England from Wales in the 1960s I was mocked by my ( mainly Home Counties ) English colleagues for having a Welsh accent. I spent a couple of years determinedly losing it to get those vicious people from off my back. I wonder if things like this still go on?
Although I don't now have the accent I still sing in Welsh just to show what wonderful traditional music there is ( and was ) in my home country.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:05 AM

A friend of my father once told me a punishement in his area (he now lives in Deganwy but I've a feeling he was born and brought up on Anglesey) was being made to wear a placard.

I do have my reservations about the moves towards Welsh speaking jobs. Even the post my mother had (she was a senior physiotherapist and had worked for 20 odd years without speaking Welsh and without problem) became Welsh speaking ESSENTIAL on retirement and that's just one...

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: HuwG
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:51 AM

Re: GUEST, Brian Peters's post:

... and and what a session it was (The Globe, 24/07/06). Attended to the point of bursting, some remarkable music.

(If anyone wonders who or where I was, I was the one in the ridiculously loud shirt, playing first in the fireplace, and subsequently next to the doorway to the gents' lavatory. As I said, the session was well attended.)

I could only exchange a few words with Joel, but he liked the "international" numbers i.e. the Grateful Dead's "Friend of the Devil".

I'll have a word with the management, see if I can bagsy a bigger playing area for the sessions. After all, the jazz acts (sometimes only 3 players) on Sunday afternoons can take over the entire lounge; why can't twenty session players ?

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:40 AM

As to Mary's post - I think children have an unfailing knack of spotting anything that marks out difference, which can be anything from hair colour and accent to levels of achievement. I had the opposite experience to Mary. We moved to Wales in the early 1960s and I was picked on unmercifully for being English and having an English accent as well as for being clever (I had passed my 11 plus exam early and was therefore at grammar school at the age of 10). I can vividly remember the unpleasantness of it all - it's not all one sided, and never was!
As to the language issue - there are many countries in the world who have attempted to stop a language in its tracks. France with both Breton and Occitan, Spain with Catalan, England with Welsh, Irish, Cornish and Scots Gaelic are the first ones that come to my mind, but I'm sure there are others. There's an element always involved in suppressing revolutionaries and insurgents, but also an element within the population of self interest in learning the language that will give an economic advantage (which is why I assume India has retained English as an official language). Many members of my extended family, who are Welsh, have a healthy scorn for the Welsh language and a total ignorance of their own culture.

Anne

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:20 AM

>> A friend of my father once told me a punishement in his area (he now lives in Deganwy but I've a feeling he was born and brought up on Anglesey) was being made to wear a placard. <<

The same thing happened in the industrial South. My Dad told me that during his schooldays in Merthyr Tydfil the punishment for linguistic incorrectness was to be made to wear a wooden board, hung around the neck on a string, which stated "I spoke Welsh today" (intended as an admission of shame rather than a boast). I daresay they were beaten as well.

Exchanging messages about sessions in Glossop is slightly off-thread(although the initial posting did prompt discussion of the Peak District), but yes, Huw, it was a rip-roarng session and Jody Kruskal (New York concertinist, for those who haven't met him) was particularly impressed that he could join in Grateful Dead songs at a traditional music session in an English pub!

Incidentally "The Management" at the Globe, Diana, used to attend the folk club in the Crown twenty years ago. She's on our side.

Next time I'll say hello to the man in the loud shirt.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:55 AM

Funnily enough I drove past the Globe today - It was advertising an 'Irish' accoustic music session. Is this the same one and the description is not very accurate or is it on a different night?

Bringing the topic back to things Welsh I noticed the moors were well ablaze. Not the Welsh nationalists setting fire to cottages again? ;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:05 AM

My understanding is that the repertoire varies from more Irish to less so, depending on which musicians are there (although Huw would know more). But, although part of me resents English and all kinds of other music being lumped together under the description "Irish", I can't really blame the pub for putting up a notice that will at least give the average punter a vague notion of what to expect. If they wrote "English music session", no-one apart from the folkies would have any idea at all.

The moors are officially closed because of the fires. But too hot to go walking anyway.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:23 AM

Ahhhh - Good point about the description. We often get it at our open session during the festival. When someone has played a good Morris tune or sung an English ballad you often hear "I love all that Irish music..." I have given up correcting them:-)

I remember being turned away from Grinsbrook on the way up Kinder once because the moors were on fire. We had to spend the afternoon in the Nags head. What a shame...

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: mindblaster
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:45 AM

Welsh is a drink!

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:48 AM

100!

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 12:22 PM

Picking up on Brian's wider definition of "Irish" tunes - I have met several friends who (probably unconsciously) used the adjective "Irish" to mean "I like it". As in "That's a fine Irish melody", when I was singing a song that had been collected in Sussex, frex.   

And what kind of a drink is Welsh, Mindblaster?

Anne

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: mindblaster
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 12:51 PM

It's a lovely Whisky why should the people from up north of the border have a monopoly of saying "that's a drink!"

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: sian, west wales
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 04:33 PM

A most excellent drink. Ask Micca; he's a fan. I don't like whisky, but I'll drink Penderyn in Heaven as my tipple-of-choice. I see that it's available in the Duty-Free in Gatwick (and presumably other ones as well).

sian

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:15 PM

Ah, now I'll never forget the Welsh poteen someone smuggled into a party some time in the 1970s ...had quite an effect, too.

Anne

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:25 PM

"I love all that Irish music..." Yes, I was at a performance of "Navvies" in a church hall in Chester and overheard that comment, the speaker particularly enjoyed the playing of the shilleleigh ('that drum thing')

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Mo
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM

Back to the business of bilingual official notices. I find it somewhat annoying that my utilities bills are all bilingual, so I have to search through small print in even more incomprenehsible language than usual to find anything I want to know.
And the best TV reception is in Welsh.
We are more than 10 miles on the English side of the border.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:57 AM

Ah, Mo, but it WAS Welsh before 650AD! Anyway, shouldn't the drink be Welch?

Wales is where emergency vehicles have SLANWBMA across the front. Where there's nothing to do but wait until an Englishman comes into the pub, so they've got something to talk about in Welsh. Where they used to close pub front doors as a sign of resect for the Sabbath. Where rain goes upwards.

If you want to see the most stunning Roman fort, and apparently a port complex, go to the Microsoft map,Windows Live Local, and search for Caerhun- zoom in close and pretend you're an archaeologist!

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:46 AM

SNALWBMA ?

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:09 AM

You have to look at the reflection in a siop window, Guest.

I couldn't get the Caerhun thing zoomed in enough, Paul. Is it because I am only part Welsh?

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,04.:46 AM (alias Topsie)
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:36 AM

Dave the Gnome

Exactly. That was the point I was making - compare Paul Burke's spelling with mine.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:17 AM

I'm not Welsh at all Dave, gets a great view on mine- make sure it's Microsoft, not Google Maps or Google Earth... the fort is the squarish feature with a farmhouse in one corner. Follow the broad slope to the east north towards the river, lots of features there of unknown date, but in the field just inland there are a number of circular features that might be British huts. There should have been a road crossing somewhere nearby- any suggestions?

I find it hard enough to spell FORWARDS in Welsh, let alone backwards... SNALWIBMA SNALWIBMA SNALWIBMA SNALWIBMA SNALWIBMA.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:02 AM

We watched what was apparently a re-run of Antiques Roadshow UK, tonight. They were in Portmeirion in the north of Wales. How beautiful it was! It will be a definite MUST SEE when I get to visit!

The program was esp. interesting because they had Paul Brett and a few of his vintage guitars on. There is a gallery of his guitars, and those of others, at Fretdancer. I figured some of you probably know him and/or other folks at Fretdancer. Anyone know if he happens to frequent the Mudcat? Besides his other guitars, he has one which belonged to Leadbelly and one which belonged to Robert Johnson.

I'm becoming quite enamoured with Wales.:-)

kat

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:52 AM

If you like trains this isn't far from Portmeirion , but for God's sake don't take Number6 with you.

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:41 AM

Wasn't it 'Flog It', not 'Antiques Roadshow'? (Not being picky, but someone might be trying to find the programme.)

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:13 PM

Thanks Guest, never thought ya were bein' picky for a minute. Your post was helpful.:-)

I am sure I didn't see it on 'Flog it' or 'Hock it' or "It Fell off the back of a Lorry" *giggle*

It was definitely on the 'Give us a squint at your dodgy old stuff aka The Antique Roadshow:>)

Know what I mean? nuff said. *nudge nudge wink wink*

katofftheturniptruck:-)

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:09 PM

Ahh Kat...good on ya! She's an understated, subtle and powerful beauty. All the celtic cultures have there own charm, wit, treasures and traditions, but there's something about Wales. Enjoy your excursion into greater knowledge.

One of the great joys in my life was the warmth with which I was received on my bicycle tour a few years ago. I mentioned in a pub of having Welsh heritage and naming my son Owen and suddenly I had more pints in front of me than I could ever hope to drink.

Sian in W.Wales may be able to expand, but there's a series of pre-historic forts along the north coast from Holyhead to Liverpool. An alarm signal could be sent in something like 90 seconds.

Here's a web address with more info re Wales: www.britannia.com/wales

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Alba
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:14 PM

Here is Jeff's link:) in blue clicky form.
Best Wishes
Jude

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: sian, west wales
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 06:52 AM

As per another thread, you might note that Huw Williams’ (formerly of Huw & Tony Williams, now with Crasdant) radio series can be heard from today, 17th August to 13 September on Radio Wales, and presumably on bbc.co.uk "Listen Again" as follows:

#1: The Triple Harp: 17-08-06, 6.32 p.m.
Repeat: 20-08-06, 12.03 p.m. & 23-08-06, 9.31 p.m.

#2: Traditional Dance: 24-08-06, 6.32 p.m.
Repeat: 27-08-06, 12.03 p.m. & 30-08-06, 9.31 p.m.

#3: Traditional Instruments: 31-08-06, 6.32 p.m.
Repeat: 3-09-06, 12.03 p.m. & 6-09-06, 9.31 p.m.

#4: Traditional Song: NO THURSDAY BROADCAST
Sun 10-09-06, 12.03 p.m.
Wed 13-09-06, 9.31

Remember to listen and to write to the BBC afterwards (David Jackson, Head of Music, BBC, Llandaf, Cardiff, CF5 2YQ) to ask for more traditional music programmes.

Also, for those of you in the States, Crasdant is on tour there in the fall:


Fri-Sun Oct 6-8 Celtic Colours, Cape Breton Nova Scotia
Tue Oct 10 Elon University, Elon, NC
Wed Oct 11 Martyrs, Chicago IL
Thu Oct 12 Cedar Cultural Center, Minneapolis MN
Fri Oct 13 Calgary Folk Club, Calgary AB
Sat Oct 14 Rogue Folk Club, Vancouver BC
Sun Oct 15 Welsh Society, Seattle WA
Tue Oct 17 St.Paul UC Church, Belleville IL
Thu Oct 19 Ceilidh House, Brunswick ME
Fri Oct 20 Musc for Robin, Arlington MA
Sat Oct 21 Blackstone River Theatre, Cumberland RI
Sun Oct 22 Susquehannah Folk Music Society, Harrisburg PA
Wed Oct 25 Milestone's, Rochester NY

sian

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 11:45 AM

Thanks, Sian!! Will try to tune in!

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: sian, west wales
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 12:39 PM

I've put my alarm clock on as I have a memory like a sieve. I don't think I'll be in the first couple of programmes - probably the last one. Some of us were taped in my living room. Should have asked for a facilities fee ...

sian

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 04:28 PM

I missed something...didn't realise you were in them! Thanks, again!

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: 8_Pints
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 10:02 PM

Sian,

I'm having trouble trying to navigate the BBC Wales web site to find the relevant "Listen Again" show.

Any chance of a "blue clicky"?

Thanx

Bob vG

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 11:41 PM

I'm wondering if the link in the upper righthand corner of THIS PAGE is the right one for the Triple Harp show?

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 11:42 PM

Well, crap! I clicked on it and it says "sorry for UK listeners only!" What's up with that!?

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: 8_Pints
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 01:02 AM

Great! Thanx Katlaughing - it works fine for me.

BTW I don't know how they can figure out where you're listening from from your ISP address. Baffles me ......

Bob vG

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 04:00 AM

Well they don't know where you live but they know who owns the IP address... Also, there are companies that provide databases of this type of information eg. MaxMind

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh st
From: sian, west wales
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 10:45 AM

Well, you didn't miss anything 'cause the show got BUMPED! Fortunately not, "DUMPED" as it will be on this Sunday at noon for the first time.

Unfortunately for us, (but fortunately for the family in question) a huge trial for a multiple-murder just north of Swansea finished with a guilty verdict and all the news programmes got extended and 'our' programme postponed.

Very happy for the family - it was a terrible thing - but we've all had every in, out, blow, gorey detail since it happened 7 years ago ... and I would personally not have to go through it all again.

Anyway - don't know what to make of the non-Brits refusal. I had a friend currently doing some work in Ghana get into it - only to get the reports on the murders. Wonder what's up? I know a lot of people in Canada listen to Frank Hennessy's Celtic Heartbeat so it isn't a blanket ban for sure ...

Try this come Sunday.

sian

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: Paul Brett
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 08:39 AM

Hi Kat,

Just browsing the net and found your thread re The Antiques Road Show. I also did Flog It for the BBC as well, in a beautiful Church (St.Mary's) in Betws y Coed. Another beautiful place about an hours drive from Portmerion. I've just joined up to the Cafe too.

Paul

Subject: RE: folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 02:05 PM

I travel to wales quite a lot and am familiar with a lot of place names but I cannot pronounce them. Can anyone tell me the following, Bagillt, Llay. How do you say these? shame on me, my mother and her family were Welsh. Thankyou, Glennis