BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Grab
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:19 AM

To add another factor into the whole thing, there's the question of water. You're probably aware that it's a bit dry out that way. So if you want to have modern drinking water and toilet facilities for all your people, plus farming, plus modern industry (which also uses a fair bit of the stuff), then you need to take a load out of the rivers and ground-water reserves.

Ben-Gurion's original plan for Israel was explicitly for Israel to annex the entire water supplies for the area. That fell by the wayside because it would have left the Palestinians and Lebanese utterly screwed, but there's still an awful lot of grief over controlling water usage in the area, because if it runs out then people die.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:09 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine


http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1923-1948-british-mandate.html


http://www.archiveeditions.co.uk/Leafcopy/557-0.htm


http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/cc87d3bf6e0759f3052565e800573851!OpenDocument

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:13 PM

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/britman.htm

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_overview.php

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:33 PM

yes, I too, can do a search on "British Mandate for Palestine"....therefore?

(That last link is rather...ummmm...one-sided, wouldn'y you say?)

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: 282RA
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:52 PM

Arab is an ethnic identifier and Jew is a follower of a certain religion. And really "Arab" spans racial boundaries as many blacks in North Africa consider themselves Arabs and non-black Arabs also consider them Arabs. Both Arabs and Jews are generally Semitic so I suppose they were there at the same time. Some of the Semites became Arabs and others Jews. In this sense, I'd say Arabs were first. If you're talking Muslims, then they followed Jews as far I can tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:01 PM

It appears that almost everything 'historical' before Josiah may have been 'spin',or invented political fiction, intended to support hi s aim to become a great ruler - not surprisingly, the priests 'found' old writings in the Temple to support this position...

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 12:38 AM

Yeah, 282RA? What about Jews who aren't religious? What about Jews who are atheists? (like Woody Allen, for example)

We've been over this ground already about 8500 times on this forum...the only thing that makes anyone a Jew is this: at least one of his parents was a Jew, and he or she thinks of himself/herself as being a Jew. That's it. Period. The rest is debatable.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: John O'L
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:04 AM

Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?

Apparently there is evidence that Hebrews did actually come westward out of Mesopotamia at around the time it is claimed that Abraham did. They settled everywhere along the way as far as Egypt at least. The Hebrews who settled in Canaan at some time started calling the place Israel, and each tribe had it's own area fenced off. The southern tribe called their patch Judah.

The northern tribes were very prosperous and highly populated. The models for the Biblical David and Solomon probably come from here. Judah was relatively poor and thinly populated. When the Assyrians conquered the northern tribes they didn't bother with the Judeans, they weren't worth the effort.

Foolestroupe raises a good point. The Biblical histories of all three religious disciplines are retrospective and backdated. As if every 500 years someone has to jump up and say "Lo & behold, that's now all bullshit, this is what's what!"

The word Jew comes from the word Judah. I don't know where the Arabs came from, when they came, or what defines them. I've often wondered. I suspect modern Jews and Arabs descend from a common ancestor as recently as 4,000 years ago. If not, they certainly descend from one a little further back, and their argument is one of degree rather than definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:25 AM

"The northern tribes were very prosperous and highly populated. The models for the Biblical David and Solomon probably come from here. Judah was relatively poor and thinly populated. "

Somebody a while ago was trying to convince me that there lots of places called 'Jerusalem'...

A recent interesting documentary claimed that 13C BCE was too early for the 'Philistines' and 'camels' - and that this places certain events nearer 7C BCE... seems as if the popular stories of ancestry

1) may have come from several separate sources and been combined to form a 'unified theory of origin' stretching from Abraham (who seems to have been travelling in the opposite direction from the archaeologically documented movements of people at that time!) thru David and Solomon (last 2 maybe from northern tribes rather than Judah) - this was supposedly so that Josiah could 'reclaim the lost lands of the great empire' - say - anybody a greater expert on English History than me and able to document off the top of their head the several such similar occurrences of political spin? :-)


2) may have integrated a group of people from Egypt who joined up with others later on (interesting that some of the dietary laws seem to be similar to a certain Egyptian Priestly class...)

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:32 AM

Oh, BTW I just remembered that in the 1930s there were several political leaders who spun that line, the Germans, the Italians, (the Japanese weren't interested in reclaiming a OLD Empire, just carving out a NEW one!) and some acknowledged terrorist guys running around in Palestine called Zionists...

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:48 AM

neither - they were all descended from the same mob, but took different religious paths. The further you go back, the closer they all are.

"Jews and Arabs are extremely closely related, a new genetic survey has shown. Wherever in the world they now live, Jewish men carry the same Y chromosome as Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese.

"Jews and Arabs are all really children of Abraham and all have preserved their Middle Eastern genetic roots over 4,000 years," said one of the scientists involved. Harry Ostrer, director of the Human Genetics Programme at New York University School of Medicine. The team analysed regions of the Y chromosome in 1,371 men from 29 populations worldwide. The Y chromosome passes largely unchanged down the male line.

The results, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, show that the difference between Jewish and Arab populations is extremely small, considerably smaller than that between North and South African populations, for example. The study confirms that both Arabs and Jews owe their genes to a common ancestor population that predated the Jewish religion."

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 10:15 AM

That's what I am getting at. Jews and Arabs are the same people. They share the same heritage. They grew apart over the years to the point that they want to kill each other. More so for the Arabs or more specifically the Muslims, because they want to wipe out the Jews. I think the Muslims are wrong but we can't correct them.

I am not a Jew or Muslim anything for that matter. I think the US supports the Jews too much and that causes the Muslim hatred for America.

Support for the Jews, Isreal, should come through the UN so it cannot be blamed on America.

What does America get for supporting Isreal? They are our buddies. Hell, anybody would be buddies with someone that gives them billions of dollars and sends their kids out to die for me. It is not only costing us what we give them but what we spend on Afghanistan and Iraq and the lives lost.

Sure, part of it is for oil but there is oil in other parts of the world besides the middle east.

I say back off, throw it in the lap of the UN and demand that they handle it.

Let oil go to $100 a barrel and it will start flowing from other sources. Gas is going to $6 or $8 like it is in Europe anyway. Just quit whining and bite the bullet.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:29 PM

Old Guy, the Muslims don't technically want to "wipe out" all Jews...they want to get rid of the political state of Israel....its government, its military, its structures of power. There's a difference between that and wiping out all Jews. All Jews do not live in Israel, number one, and you don't have to kill every single Israeli Jew in order to bring down the government of Israel. If the Muslims wanted to kill every single Jew that they could get hold of anywhere in the world (as Hitler apparently wanted to do), THEN they would be wanting to "wipe out the Jews".

As it is, they are wanting to bring an end to a political state which came into being in 1948, and which they consider illegitimate. "Regime change", in other words!

"Regime change." Gosh, where have I heard that before? (grin)

Now, I'm not saying that they have any right to wipe out the state of Israel, so don't get me wrong on that. Yes, the Israelis have plenty of cause for concern about this...and so do their neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:39 PM

They need a regime change at the UN.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:48 PM

And in Washington. And in any number of other places too.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:51 PM

In Canaduh too?

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 03:16 PM

Dysfunctional Family to the Nth degree, huh?       Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 04:23 PM

Little Hawk, from this statement it seems as they have a liitle bigger appetite than simply the "state" of Israel:

So much for the "moderate" faction. "We will drink the blood of the Jews," proclaimed the Hamas website, well after its landslide election victory. (They forgot to say, "Zionists".) It was the headline over the farewell message from one of Hamas's suicide bombers:

"My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah, we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. " In the name of Allah, we will destroy you, blow you up, take revenge against you, purify the land of you, pigs that have defiled our country. This operation is revenge against the sons of monkeys and pigs." Et cetera.

From http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:07 PM

LH: looks like somebody pissed on your candles.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:49 PM

There are bloodthirsty fanatics in every such political cause, bobad. There are some among the Zionists too. I do not take their statements to speak for their entire people nor should you.

The quotes you have sought out from a few Muslim religious fanatics are the kind of outrageous quotes anyone can seek out if they wish to demonize all of their political opponents (as if they were all exactly the same!) and present them as vermin who deserve no mercy...in which case, it's ironical, because they are then criticizing their opponents for the same sins they are themselves guilty of.

I say that the Israelis and their foes BOTH have legitimate concerns, BOTH have suffered, BOTH are equally valuable human beings, and they should learn to live and let live. What do you say?

Do you always judge an entire people by the utterances of their most stupid, emotional, hate-filled spokesmen? If so, you would make a good executioner for someone, somewhere...I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM

Yeah, Ok. But you can't talk rationally ot negotiate with irrational people. All they know is hate and emotion. The only thing they respect is a hunk of lead coming in their direction.

Like I said, USA back off of Isreal, toss it into the lap of the UN and demand they take care of it. Iran could be sanctioned and even blockaded but Russia and China will not go along with it unless the pressure to do something is on them. I think the actions of the US gives them an excuse not to cooperate on sanctioning Iran

Right now they are finding Russian anti tank rockets in Lebanon. How would Comrade Putin like it if he found American made arms in Chechnya?

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 06:25 PM

Well, I'm betting he wouldn't like it. ;-) His predecessors didn't like it when the Afghan Mujahedin fought them with American-made weapons.

Look, everybody sells weapons to whom they choose...and who they choose just depends which way the wind is blowing at the time. It isn't determined by who is "good" or "bad". The USA helps arm the Israelis and the Saudis, for example. Other people help arm the Iranians or the Syrians or Hezbollah. What exactly is the difference, morally speaking? All those weapons usually do in the end is end up killing a bunch of mostly innocent civilians who happen to get in the way. It's a crime all the way around as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 06:41 PM

If you remember, The USSR was invading Afghanistan. Who is invading Iran?

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 07:58 PM

Little Hawk, you state that the quotes are that of a "few religious fanatics" where did you get this information from, did you read the article? The quote is from Hamas' website, wasn't Hamas elected by a majority of Palastinians? They are hardly "a few religious fanatics"

Do you not recognize that some people may be a little sensitive to such rhetoric? Do the words "never again" mean anything to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM

The USSR occupied Afghanistan as part of their sphere of influence, and it was being ruled by the local government they installed, just like it's now being ruled by the local government that America installed. None of that had much to do with the wishes of normal Afghans in either case, did it? ;-)

America, however, definitely has invaded Iraq and Afghanistan both in recent times, and Israel definitely has invaded Lebanon twice now, so what exactly is your point? If invaders are, by definition, wrong to invade (and I would agree that they normally are wrong to do so), then why is it wrong for someone else to supply them weapons when they resist the invasion?

As for Iran, they have been invaded by Iraq in the 1980's, with American backing and encouragement. Hundreds of thousands died in that war. I suggest to you that the USA has done far more harm to Iran than Iran has done to anyone else...but they did it indirectly, using Iraqis to do it for them. They also brought down a popularly elected Iranian civil administration in the 50's in a CIA plot, and put the Shah in power in its place, and the Shah was a total despot.

Iran has not forgotten any of that. Any harm Iran has done to others pales in comparison to what the USA has already done to Iran, and is planning yet to do to Iran. I believe the worst is yet to come. I think that the USA intends to conquer Iran in the next few years, and may even use nuclear weapons to do it. We shall see.

The Iranians are doing what you would do, Old Guy. They're fighting back or preparing to fight back as best they can. Their religious fundamentalism is lamentable, but their desire to defend themselves against foreign attack is totally understandable.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:43 PM

Yeah, of course I recognize that people are sensitive about it. I have stated over and over again that BOTH the Israelis and the Muslims they are fighting have totally valid reasons to be upset about what the other is saying...and more importantly...doing.

Talk's cheap, after all, but bullets and bombs are real.

George Bush keeps openly calling other countries "evil" and threatening to attack them and bring about "regime change". Doesn't he realize that people are sensitive to that sort of thing???? ;-) (well, apparently he doesn't...)

You see, behind all this sort of inflammatory rhetoric, no matter who is using it, lies a tacit, usually unspoken assumption. It goes like this:

"Violent things done by others to us are totally evil and unacceptable. Violent things WE do to others are noble, necessary, rightful, and just. This is because we're good, they're bad, and our feelings are more important than theirs."

And upon that little piece of egocentric folly and insanity is founded most of the pain and suffering in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 11:47 PM

What Bush said about the Axis of evil is exactly true. They want to develop nukes and provide them to terrorists. Korea wants nukes to blackmail the free world with.

You are one of those middle of the road idealists that will get run over.

How does it go? Yellow lines and dead skunks are in the middle of the road.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 12:02 AM

And of course the reason that the USA, Britain, France, China developed nukes was just to rule the world in love and peace...

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 01:17 AM

A terrorist is someone who deliberately terrorizes large numbers of innocent people. Armed nations who commit aggression terrorize people far more effectively than secret groups do, and they kill far more people. Armed nations with nuclear weapons and stealth bombers terrorize millions of people. Do you think Iraqis were not terrorized by "Shock and Awe"? Do you think Lebanese are not terrorized by Israeli air attacks? Do you think we have not ALL been terrorized ever since the late 40's by the nuclear arsenals of major powers?

To call only the little ragtag players that the USA or Israel or Russia or some other big power doesn't approve of "terrorists" is to use the English language in a grossly dishonest manner, with deliberate intention to deceive...or to simply not really be aware of what you are saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:12 AM

... and the Zionists in the 1930s and later were labelled 'terrorists' (by the British, wasn't it?) - they planted bombs which killed innocent civilians - but funny, isn't it, how THEY achieved their political aims... and now nukes too... and they seem to have been 'invading' (but using other words for political spin!) their neighbours for the last 50 years...

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:45 AM

Both Arabs and Jews own the land they inhabit. When they learn to share it, the mid-east conflict will be over.

Under the Ottoman Empire, Jewish people fared well. Their religion was accepted.

Then Christianity buried the Synagogues and Temples under Cathedrals.

Religious wars are the main reason for strife in this world.

Islam and Judaism share many similar roots. When this is realized, then the world will be safer.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: 282RA
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:21 AM

>>Yeah, 282RA? What about Jews who aren't religious? What about Jews who are atheists? (like Woody Allen, for example)<<

I have no idea what you're talking about (big surprise). What does the formation of the Jewish religion have to do with Woody Allen or people of Jewish background who consider themselves atheists?

>>We've been over this ground already about 8500 times on this forum...<<

Oh, I see. Therefore the question is settled. Thank you for informing me.

>>the only thing that makes anyone a Jew is this: at least one of his parents was a Jew, and he or she thinks of himself/herself as being a Jew. That's it. Period. The rest is debatable.<<

Once again, what does this have to do with anything I was talking about? I said Arabs likely existed before there were Jews. I think this is fairly obvious. They were nomadic tribes living off whatever the land offered them. I said that Muslims, however, came after Jews. I think this can be easily proven. Now what has that do with with someone thinking they are a Jew or having at least one parent that was a Jew? You're losing me.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Penny S.
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 03:55 PM

With regard to the Egyptians, I have found it very interesting to see how often, in film of modern Egyptians, there are faces which look like the faces of ancient Egyptian sculptures. And it is obvious from the way some of them speak about the past that they regard it as their past, not that of a conquered and replaced people. What about the Copts, for example?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 04:04 PM

I was not disputing your entire argument, 282RA, I was only disputing your specific assertion that "Jew is a follower of a certain religion". Not so. Many Jews are not religious at all. What a Jew is, is he or she is the follower of a certain cutural identity and tradition (which are mental concepts), but not necessarily of a certain religion. The people who hate him may assume he follows a certain religion, but they may be mistaken in that assumption.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 04:26 PM

The fact is that a phoney state was set up based on British pragmatism and a religious belief that cannot be proven. 'God promised the land to us'! Who is 'God'? I don't believe in the destruction of any people but the State of Israel is phoney and the modern State of Israel is behaving worse that Nazi Germany. UN soldiers, hospitals, Red Cross ambulances ... nothing matters except the destruction of anything and anyone in Lebanon which is perceived to be a threat to Israel's existance. They ignore UN Resolutions which they don't like and insist on the ones that suits them and know that the USA will back them because this is a Western foot in the Middle East ... money and oil.
Britain knew it couldn't beat the IRA militarily and there is no great benefit to Britain by keeping it's hold on Northen Ireland. The Tory government needed the majority provied by Northern Ireland but not the present Labout government .. they need Scotland.
Watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 06:12 PM

There are Arab Moslems, Arab Christians, Arab Druze, Arab Ba'hai, Arab Atheists and, yes, Arab Jews. One of the issues that Mohammed had during his conquest of the Arabian Peninsula was that there were nomadic Jewish tribes there as well as Arab tribes worshiping other gods. Many of the Jews expelled from the Arab and other Moslem nations in 1949 were physically indistinguishable from their former hosts. Among those who came to Israel after it was founded were a group of Ethiopians who trace their lineage to the priests who came to Axum after the Queen of Sheba's visit to Solomon. Other Jewish emigrants included ethnic Chinese, Russians and Europeans.

By the way, it is a myth that Jews were treated well in the Arab nations prior to the mandate or the establishment of Israel, except for a very brief period in Spain in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. Just as in Western Europe, they were restricted as to the occupations they were allowed to pursue, the neighborhoods in which they were allowed to live and were sometimes required to wear special articles of clothing. Christians were subject to much the same kind of restrictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:55 PM

There are separate questions-the jews were invented before the moslems, but the arabs predate both.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 09:10 PM

"And of course the reason that the USA, Britain, France, China developed nukes was just to rule the world in love and peace."

I dunno. Was it?

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 09:25 PM

This was a distortion. When the smoke blew away there was one casualty, not 40.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/08/08/stories/2006080808461200.htm
Addressing Arab Foreign Ministers in Beirut on Monday morning, Lebanon's Prime Minister Fuad Saniora said an Israeli attack had killed 40 persons in Houla. "An hour ago, there was a horrific massacre in the village of Houla in which more than 40 martyrs were victims of deliberate bombing," he said.

Interrupting his remarks several times to fight back tears and to wipe his eyes, Mr. Saniora accused Israel of indulging in "State terrorism". "If these horrific actions are not State terrorism then what is State terrorism?" He said Israeli strikes had taken "our country back decades. We are still in the middle of the shock."

Corroborating Mr. Saniora's assertion, local Lebanese television stations had reported that about 40 persons had been buried under the rubble of houses that had collapsed on being hit during Israeli air strikes. The Israel army said it was investigating the allegation, but added that it had warned residents in Lebanon's southern villages to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 10:29 PM

Answer to your question, neither.

According to the old histories and religious writings, the first person who could have been called Jewish - Abraham - wasn't and wouldn't have any idea of what the term meant.

Next clarification is the odd perception among westerners - esp Christians - that the entire OT is the product of the Jewish religion. Well it wasn't and isn't.

For one thing, the story of Noah predates Abraham and is shared - also claimed - by many different cultures including the Arabs. Nor is there any reason to suppose that Abraham's tale is completely original either. Compare NT stories with the old pagan religions of Rome. See Mythracism myths V NT Messiah.

All in all, one can agree with Rebbi-Sol above if the entire population of Ur ceased to exist, after Abraham left the city - now near Bagdad in modern Iraq.

But it didn't. So there is one heckuva gap in history right there.

Modern Jewish people are as descended from Urians as modern day Urians and if they did not have different religions it would be hard to distinguish the one from the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 10:56 PM

One thing that tweaks my curiosity is that Jesus spoke Aramaic as his primary language.

Aramaic sounds Arab to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 11:02 PM

To the best of my knowledge there are no living Aramaic speakers, so how would you, or anyone else, know if it sounded Arab (by which I assume you mean Arabic) or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 11:03 PM

I think they where just people ... did they know what they where?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 02:55 AM

Well Old Guy, I'm an old guy too. I believe your question was "Who came first? The Arabs or the Jews?" The most ancient source of information on this question is the Torah or the Christian's Old Testament. The father of both was a man from Ur of the Chaldees (roughly modern day Iraq) whose name was Abram. The story starts in the Book of Genesis, I believe Chapter 11. God told him to pack up and move out to a land that He would show him. His household and his nephew Lot went with him and they eventually arived at the land of Canaan. Because he was faithful in his response to God's direction God made a promise to him. He told him that He would give him a son by his wife Sarai. If you read through this section you'll see that I am skipping a lot of detail that is important but I am trying to get to your specific question. In his old age Abraham (note the name change) began to doubt and probably thought (along with his wife Sarah[note again a name change]), that maybe God needed a little help. This is what one would call a "lack of faith". Abraham took Sarah's servant Hagar as a concubine and had Ishmael, the father of the Arabic peoples. Hagar is considered to have been an Egyptian by many scholars. God's promises also extended to Ishmael as he was Abraham's firstborn but he was not the child of faith nor was he the child of Sarah. If I remember right Ishmael was about seventeen when Isaac ("Laughter" because Sarah had laughed in disbelief at God's promise) was born. Sarah then desired to drive Hagar and Ishmael from the camp, which she did. A prophecy was made concerning Ishmael that he (and his decendants) would be a wildman and that everyman's hend would be against him and his hand against every man. The answer is that the Arabs came first. The Jews are descendants of Judah, one of the 12 (or 13) children of Jacob.

An interesting sidenote to this is that when Moses went out into the desert in exhile he came into an Arab settlement (the Middianites) and married a Middianite woman. It was the Middianite's God who called to him from the burning bush and eventually revealed Himself as the I AM (YHWH). In the King James and most English Bibles where the name LORD all in caps appears the Hebrew word is YHWH and where God appears the word is Elohim (the Strong One). El is suffixed into many Hebrew names ( Isra el, Jo el, Micha el, etc.) as an honorific to the diety. Yah is prefixed into names as a specific honorific to YHWH.

Time and space do not allow for a full exposition of the failures of the Hebrew/Jewish people nor the failures of the Arabs nor the failures of those who go by the title of Christian but there is plenty of blame to go around but I dare say that Judasim, Christianity and Islam all have preachments which allow for the peaceful co-existence (or tri-existence) of these children and adopted children of Abraham.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 11:26 AM

according to tradition, both Arabs and Jews are descended from Shem, a son of Noah, so they are Semites. Arab and Hebrew are part of the Semitic language group. They are brothers or cousins, some of whom MUCH, MUCH later began to worship the same god in a different way, even though the ancient Jews themselves worshipped many gods, in many ways, before committing to mono-theism. This modern day conflict is the result of British Imperialism and hubris, and largely Christian anti-Semitic rhetoric going back to the crusades and earlier. People, whether you choose to call them Palestinians or not, lived in what became Israel for generations before the return of Jewish peoples from Europe and elsewhere, some of whose families had lived in Russia, or Spain, or Poland, or Turkey for as long as many of the "Palestinian" arabs had lived in Palestine. Eventually, these two groups, arab, whether christian or moslem or pagan and Israeli, whether orthodox or not, or even secular and atheist, must find a way to live together or destroy each other. There are the same terrorist acts on either side, as well as the same heroic acts of humanism and compassion. No side has a moral high ground least of all anything ridiculously referred to as a 'God-given' right to this territory.
Shalom and Salaam are the same words, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 11:51 AM

GUEST, Bill Kennedy: just as a point of clarification, there were Jews in what the British called Palestine long before anyone began to "return." The Jewish community in Jerusalem really never left, except for a very brief period after the Roman expulsion, and the community in Tiberius is just about as long-lived. In fact, most of the people massacred when the Crusaders took Jerusalem during the First Crusade were Jews...and some Christians...because the Moslem residents were all allowed to flee by the city's defenders.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 12:54 PM

of course there were, never meant to imply otherwise, just as there are Arab Israelis who stayed put as well. that doesn't change the the underlying intent of my post, to point out that these two cultures were once of the same tribe, either literally if you believe in scripture, or metaphorically if as I you do not. And that sometime, probably after much more blood is shed, they must find a way to live in peace. Nothing good can come of violence. the adage 'live by the sword, die by the sword' is in some ways more a natural law, than a prophecy. The US is a nation founded on the genocide of the first peoples that were here, and this genocide infects and corrupts everything that has followed. We have twice used atomic bombs on innocent civilian populations, because we could, because we had the might. But we never had the right, and will never be right, until there is some real atonement, if that is possible. And now the outrageous murder and destruction by the mighty Israel with our support financial and military. "sow the wind, reap the whirlwind", again a natural law, not just a prophecy, but in the end there is a desire for peace. or is it all to be an eternal game of 'who struck John?' vengeance begetting vengeance till the last man stands holding the dripping knife? What savage, idiotic, barbarians we are, what cowards to allow this to continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 01:02 PM

re: Aramaic
There are no current Aramaic speakers. However, the language survives in its written form and is used in several prayers in the Hebrew liturgy.

The theory that anyone who has a Jewish parent is Jewish is an incorrect gereralization. Under Hebrew law, only the child of a Jewish mother is Jewish. This is being modified, mostly within the Reform movement.

Until the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, and through most of the period until the establishment of the Israel, the vast majority of the Arabs living on the land were tenant farmers, under their sheiks and Ottoman governors. When the Zionists came to the land, they bought it from the Ottomans and the Sheiks, who moved the Arabs our of the way.

The currently accepted "legal" borders of Israel are not those set forth in the United Nations plan. They are the borders Israel was able to win prior to the 1948 ceasefire.

Finally, the word "Hebrew," derives from "Ivri" a word meaning "wanderer."

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,my
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 01:09 PM

I heard they speak Aramaic in some part of Syria still.. not sure where I heard that. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:27 PM

100