BS: Can a government mislead ?

Subject: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: GUEST,Dean White
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:27 AM

I just watched an interview with the Home Secretary John Reed. I never saw a more unconvincing attempt to justify the events of the last week. He said the situation we now live with has nothing to do with Britains involvement in the Middle East. He said Al-Qaida had been planning attacks on this country long before September the 11th attacks. It reaffirmed my belief that the government manufactured this whole story to give some form of justification for their presence in the Middle East at the request of Mr. Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:32 AM

Can bears crap in the woods?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:48 AM

Did the Birmingham 6 and Guldfor 4 spend a little time in the pokey?

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:46 AM

I'm a bit unsure of the spelling - but back many years ago ASIO were desperately trying to get extra funding - a garbo died when he put a bomb hidden in garbage in the compactor at the back of the truck - 'Ananda Marga' guys spent years trying to prove their innocence - and there were just as many unanswered questions as in the Kennedy Assisnation...

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:55 AM

is the sky blue?

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:57 AM

LTS beat me to it...

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:41 AM

Does the pope wear a big white hat?

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:53 AM

So, when do they NOT???

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:08 AM

Yes but re: "He said Al-Qaida had been planning attacks on this country long before September the 11th attacks.", it wouldn't surprise that ideas to attack the UK had existed before 9/11 occured. We and the US haven't exactly been liked by everyone for some time...

Part of the trouble is (at least as far as I'm concerned) we simply do not what to believe any longer.

I disagree with "the situation we now live with has nothing to do with Britains involvement in the Middle East" though.

If nothing else, IMO we have done a pretty good job in helping the recruitment of terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Alice
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:16 AM

And can the government heighten the terrorism anxiety to keep the population more vulnerable to being mislead?
yup

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:00 AM

That's more to the point, Alice. Keep 'em scared enough and they'll accept any totalitarian repressive legislation we want.

Our politicos are no better than the US mob. They're all cut from the same cloth.

I did agree with just one sentence tho', when he spoke about the statement yesterday by (wrongly) so called Muslim MPs re. foreign policy.

He said that no government worth its salt can allow its foreign policy to be dictated by terrorists.

True! But if we were not supporting the illegal war in the first place, the question would never have arisen, a truth that somehow seems to have escaped his notice.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:04 AM

Just to put a twist on the question: May a government mislead? Does a government have the right to withhold information, the right to put a spin on the information they put out, the right to decide who has the right to know?

Any governement is made up of people, ordinary people, people with flaws and agendas and aspirations of grandeur and power.

Yikes. Maybe a dictatorship is better in the long run...

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:56 AM

The cartoon on the 'Comment' page of today's Observer newspaper shows a tiny Blair figure hopping up and down pathetically. Round his ankle is a shackle and a long chain to the end of which is attached a big ball labelled "WMD". The Blair figure is shouting "Wolf, Wolf!" whilst being menaced by a vast, gaunt, mangy wolf labelled "Terror Threat".

The problem is that lying to the electorate has profound consequences further down the line. Blair should not be surprised that people are sceptical and that conspiracy theories flourish. I know that it's stating the obvious but if we really are menaced by a vast Islamo-fascist conspiracy, and no-one believes the Government, we are in deep, deep doo-doo!!
The thing is that I don't believe half of what the Government tells us and suspect that its up to its old tricks of spin and misdirection, and has numerous hidden agendas - a lot of those conspiracy theories look awfully attractive...

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:24 PM

Do pigs roll in the mud?


I think that Al-Queda is largely an invention of the New World Order. They needed a new enemy after the Soviet Union broke up, so they created one. They have a need to maintain huge military production and fight wars, and nothing serves that need better than an imaginary enemy who can be used as an excuse to fight an endless war in a large variety of locations where there happens to be a valuable strategic resource: oil. I also think that the New World Order planned and helped orchestrate 911.

Are there actual Islamic terrorists out there? Of course! They have been both funded and encouraged by the New World Order ever since the CIA backed the Mujahedin in Afghanistan to fight the Russians....and the outrage created in Muslim populations by American and Israeli policies of the past 5 decades would in any case have made a backlash of militant Islamic retaliation inevitable. This is particularly true in the case of Iran, for example, which the USA has been messing around with ever since they got the Shah in power in the 1950's.

If you keep throwing rocks at a hornet nest, some hornets will most certainly come out of it and sting you. Enough to make it appear justifiable to keep fighting the endless war that YOU started in the first place by throwing the rocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:47 PM

"the USA has been messing around with ever since they got the Shah in power in the 1950's"

Please study the history of Iran and get some facts straight. The Shah's father was installed in the 1930's to replace a corrupt government run by a thug, much like Saddam Hussein. The first Shah was one of our most important allies in WWII, providing the "back door" (for food and arms) to Russia through his country. Without the support of Iran, Russia's chances against Hitler were bleak.

The second Shah maintained a secular progressive government despite attempted assinations and coups by both Leftists and Islamic repressive elements who wanted to turn Iran into an Islamic theocracy. Jimmy Carter turned the country over to the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:17 PM

I'm not fond of Islamic theocracies either, pdq, but I am aware that the USA and Britain conspired to bring down a popularly elected government in Iran in 1953 and replace it with absolute rule by the Shah.

Yes, his government was secular (as was Saddam's for most of its tenure), and that's fine with me. Yes, it was progressive in the sense that it encouraged certain forms of liberal modernization or "westernization" of society. Fine, I've no problem with that. It was not the least bit progressive in democratic, it was absolute rule by a police state in service to the interests Britain and America, and the Iranian people eventually threw it out.

Here's a quote from an article about that:

"In 1951 elections returned a popular nationalist government under Mohammed Mossadegh. His most controversial commitment was to nationalise the Anglo-Iranian oil company. It went ahead to great popular acclaim, but in August 1953 Mossadegh's government was violently overthrown and replaced by a dictator called the Shah, and, with the assistance of economic aid from America and a brutal secret service, ruled roughshod over Iran for 26 years.

Who was behind the coup? Until very recently most people blamed the US State Department and the CIA which, then as always, were determined to keep their puppets in control everywhere on earth.

But now comes a book and a report of another conspirator in the coup: the British government, led by that doughty champion of democracy, Winston Churchill. A newly released secret CIA document backs the claim in Stephen Dorril's recent book about MI6 that the Foreign Office and its "intelligence" arm played a crucial role in stirring up the disturbances which toppled Mossadegh.

The reason was simple. Until then British companies had established what they regarded as a God-given right to make profits from Iranian oil, a right that Mossadegh dared to threaten. Leading the charge against the popular Iranian government on behalf of the very unpopular oil companies was MI6 loony GK Young who later became a merchant banker in London and a racist campaigner of the most virulent variety. Until he ran out of money and had to go begging for more from the CIA, Young concentrated on subverting the Iranian media, planting false stories, bribing editors, and playing all the other dirty tricks necessary to uphold the principle of the freedom of the press."

And here is a website upon which you can read all about the history of Iran until you turn blue in the face:

http://www.parstimes.com/Iran_history.html

Get back to me when you've read all of it... ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:46 PM

Shame they got rid of the Shah of Persia... used to be a damned fine pub.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Scoville
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:55 PM

Oh, sorry--I assumed this was a rhetorical question . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:43 PM

Little Hawk:

The book you quote from is hatemongering propaganda and history revisionism. If that is what you want to believe than knock yerself out. Mossadegh was appointed, not elected. He was a shill for Leftists who favored being a satellite of the Soviet Union, not the US and Britain. The people of Iran supported the Shah, many truly loved him. His wife is still the most popular person in Iran (after Mohammed, of course).

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:00 PM

"Can a government mislead ?"

Gee, I wonder what prompts people to wonder about that sorta question . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:24 PM

Well, it is a recognized psychological phenomenon, pdq, that people filter information through their established emotional prejudices, and on the basis of that they decide what is "hate propaganda" and what isn't, what is a "reliable source" and what isn't, and so on. As our prejudices in most political areas are diametrically opposite, I doubt that we well ever agree on much of anything. It works this way: You think the USA is a progressive force in the world, and is protecting the world. I think they're a fascist empire bent on world conquest and in the control of a criminally insane government that is about as bad as most such governments usually are...which is very bad. I also have no high opinion of most of the other governments which the USA seems to feel are in its way at the moment, but they are not nearly as dangerous as the USA is, because the USA does about 50% of the world's annual military spending and is in the habit of attacking other people anytime it wants to, even if they are incapable of attacking it. That's what fascist empires do, as a general rule.   

And so it goes. I still suggest you read that site on Iranian history...plenty of good info there, and I doubt that I would agree with all of it, so you may find something you like there.

What I quoted from was an article in The Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:35 PM

Okay, pdq, back up a sec.

Despite the fact that the Shah's policies led to strong economic growth in Iran during the 1960s and 1970s, opposition grew in large part because he was pro-West. His good relations with Israel and the United States and his active support for women's rights were the main reasons for Islamic fundamentalist groups to attack his policies. On January 16, 1979 he and his wife left Iran at the behest of Prime Minister Shapour Bakhtiar, a long time opposition leader, who sought to calm down the situation. Bakhtiar allowed Ayatollah Khomeini to return to Iran after years in exile, asking him to create a Vatican-like state in Qom, a city about a hundred miles southwest of Tehran, and called upon the opposition to help preserve the constitution, promising free elections. Khomeini rejected Dr. Bakhtiar's demands and appointed an interim government of his own. Shortly thereafter, the dissolution of the monarchy was completed and Khomeini became religious dictator of Iran.

In the meantime, President Jimmy Carter allowed the Shah to come to the United States in late October of 1979 for medical treatment and for temporary sanctuary. The Shah left the United States on December 15, 1979 and lived for a short time in Panama. Finally he went back to Egypt where he died on July 27, 1980 at the age of 60.

While the Shah was in the United States, the Ayatollah urged demonstrations against the United States (which he began calling "the Great Satan"). The American Embassy in Tehran was taken over on November 4, 1979, and the Iran hostage crisis began. Carter's attempt to rescue the hostages failed, not because of anything Carter did. Quite the contrary. He sent the best strike force we had available at the time—and they managed to Keystone Kop the operation.

Now explain to me please:    In what way did Jimmy Carter give Iran to the Islamic fundamentalists?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:12 PM

Some people just like to practice character assassination on Jimmy Carter because he's on "the wrong side of the aisle", that's all. They have no such problem with luminaries like Reagan or Bush or Margaret Thatcher, for some mysterious reason. ;-)

That's called "being partisan", and most of us are. If the weather was that predictable, we wouldn't need a weatherman (to know which way the wind blows).

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:13 PM

NNE

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:15 PM

WSW over here.

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:29 PM

N, NNW, NW, WNW, W, WSW, SW, SSW, S, SSE, SE, ESE, E, ENE, NE, NNE, N

(Tornado weather here . . . .)

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: GUEST,!
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:31 PM

"Immediately after the Paris meetings, things began to happen. On Oct. 21, Iran publicly shifted its position in the negotiations with the Carter Administration, disclaiming any further interest in receiving military equipment. From my position at the N.S.C., I learned that Cyrus Hashemi and another Iranian arms dealer secretly had reported to State Department officials that Iran had decided to hold the hostages until after the elections.

Between Oct. 21 and Oct. 23, Israel sent a planeload of F-4 fighter aircraft tires to Iran in contravention of the U.S. boycott and without informing Washington. Cyrus Hashemi, using his own contacts began privately organizing military shipments to Iran. On Oct. 22, the hostages were suddenly dispersed to different locations. And a series of delaying tactics in late October by the Iranian Parliament stymied all attempts by the Carter Administration to act on the hostage question until only hours before Election Day.

After the election, the lame-duck Carter Administration resumed hostage negotiations through Algerian intermediaries, but the talks stalled. On Jan. 15, Iran did an about-face, offering a series of startling concessions that reignited the talks and resulted in a final agreement in the last few hours of Jimmy Carter's Presidency. The hostages were released on Jan. 21, 1981, minutes after Ronald Reagan was sworn in as President. " (extract from *)

[Can a Goverment mislead?
It can, it has and it is doing so right now in the US and in the UK and will continue to do so if it suits a particular Political agenda.]

*House of Representatives
Creating a Task Force to Investigate Certain Allegations Cconcerning the Holding of Americans as Hostages by Iran in 1980
House of Representatives - February 05, 1992*: more if interested, it gets better

Subject: RE: BS: Can a government mislead ?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:38 PM

N, NNW, NW, WNW, W, WSW, SW, SSW, S, SSE, SE, ESE, E, ENE, NE, NNE, N??? Hmmm... ya know why they put weathercocks on barns? Well, the wind would blow right through a weathercunt, wouldn't it?