BS: Israel used cluster bombs

Subject: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:00 AM

From the Globe and Mail:

"As we drove, kilometre after kilometre, house after house, apartment after apartment, village after village was destroyed," a visibly upset Mr. Wrzesnewskyj said afterward. The delegation met with Human Rights Watch representatives, who presented evidence that Israeli forces used cluster bombs in civilian areas.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj said Mr. Harper's statement early in the war that Israel's attack was a "measured response" to the kidnapping by Hezbollah of two Israeli soldiers was "the moral equivalent of condoning human massacres."

What were they doing using cluster bombs in civilian areas?

And before you mention suicide bombers, remember we are talking about a nation using cluster bombs, not a band of terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:09 AM

The latest Angus Reid -

Do you agree with prime minister Stephen Harper's support for Israeli actions?

Agree
33%

Disagree
44%

Neither agree or disagree
17%

Don't know
6%

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:34 AM

Declan Walsh in to-days Guardian reports that the southern Lebanon is littered with unexploded cluster bombs, children have been mutilated, the US is the biggest manufacturer of these terrorist weapons.

I often wonder if the people who make these indiscriminate weapons take a pride in their work.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:05 AM

"the US is the biggest manufacturer of these terrorist weapons"

... and those who wished to 'bring the war home to America' were called 'terrorists'....

... and before you start getting excited, I'm talking about 'the weathermen' of the 11960/70s - a bunch of white US college kids that let off bombs (no loss of life) to protest various political things starting with the Vietnam war and were never caught by the FBI. They broke up after the Vietnam war finished, but they never had popular support anyway, and were running out of steam and ideas, but always had sufficient money for their projects.

So modern fundamentalist Muslims are a bit behind the times - or else the ideas are suiting the pollies in power this time - but of course they mostly live outside the US, unlike the weathermen who could get no support for a popular revolution to over throw the fascist capitalist dictators who had taken over the US Govt...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Bagpuss
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:44 AM

The Guardian story

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:04 AM

"War is Hell"

    Willaim Tecumseh Sherman

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:29 AM

" Human Rights Watch has separately and simultaneously documented violations of international humanitarian law by Hezbollah, including a pattern of attacks that amount to war crimes. Between July 12, when Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers and killed eight, and July 27, the group launched a reported 1,300 rockets into predominantly civilian areas in Israel, killing 18 civilians and wounding more than 300. Without guidance systems for accurate targeting, the rockets are inherently indiscriminate when directed toward civilian areas, especially cities, and thus are serious violations of the requirement of international humanitarian law that attackers distinguish at all times between combatants and civilians. Some of these rockets, Human Rights Watch found, are packed with thousands of metal ball-bearings, which spray more than 100 meters from the blast and compound the harm to civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:39 AM

Cluster Bombs ain't pretty. It's war, it never is. And let's not start all over again with the what a civilian target is, when 'soldiers' can step away from the kitchen window, put down the gun and become a 'civilian' again.

BTW, the Guardins figures don't quite add up...

Mine-clearing teams scrambling across the region have logged 89 cluster bomb sites so far, and expect to find about 110 more. Meanwhile, casualties are being taken into hospital - four dead and 21 injured so far. Officials fear the toll could eventually stretch into the thousands.

So, 45 % found = 25 casulties, 100% = thousands?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:35 PM

1000+ Lebanese dead almost 1 million homeless, Hezbollah rockets = darts at an Elephants ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:07 PM

Never do your enemy a minor injury. Israel understands you have to take war seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:40 PM

Apparently about 30% the cluster bomblets (those making up the cluster) failed to explode. According to the New York Times, children and the unwary are being killed and injured. It could be years before they are all found and exploded.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:51 PM

Cluster bombs have been used for decades, and they are inhumane. Israel seems to have used 200 or so and it is not right in areas that will or do have civilians. Hezbollah has been using the equivalent, and that is not right either. Hezbollah should not have started this war.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 02:22 PM

200 or so???????????

Please stick to the facts.

From the article linked above, " In Tibnin, 210 bombs were found around the town hospital."

Thats one area. What about the rest of the area?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 02:23 PM

Thank you Dianavan for noticing that war is bad for children and other living things.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 02:35 PM

dianavan,

Cluster munitions contain bomblets- the battery sized items. The BOMBS or artillary shells contain hundreds of bomblets, some of which do not explode on impact.

Calling the bomblets bombs does not multiply the number present. 210 unexploded bomblets is about right for ONE bomb or shell. So, 200 bombs also seems about the right number.



And your condemnation of the 4000+ unguided antipersonnel bombardment rockets launched by Hezbolllah?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:02 PM

anti-personnel weapons directed at civilians is terrorism whoever does it, and constitutes a war crime.   

Does anyone actually disagree with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:02 PM

Defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:07 PM

"anti-personnel weapons directed at civilians is terrorism whoever does it, and constitutes a war crime.   

Does anyone actually disagree with that? "

Agreed, which is why Israel only targeted military targets.


dianavan, If your comment was in regards to the Hezbollah missles, you are excusing deliberate war crimes and , IMO, are guilty of aiding and abetting them. Do you claim that random area bombardment of civilian areas by anti-personnel weapons is defense? I refer you to the Geneva Conventions. You might try reading them sometime.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:14 PM

Since when is a hospital a military target?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:17 PM

When dianavan's Hezbollah friends use hospitals as firing centres for anti-civilian rocket attacks, WHICH THEY DID DO, it becomes a military target.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:19 PM

When it has been used by Hezbollah as a launching site for those "defensive" missles that are against international law to use on civilian populations. IF civilians are killed in that attack, the side using the human shields ( Hezbollah) bears the responsibility in international law.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:22 PM

Question: Did Hezbollah sign the Geneva Conventions? As nebulous as the organization is, it would surprise me.

Which does not excuse their tactics, of course. However, it does seem to me that saying "They do the same thing" subtracts somewhat from the nobility of one's cause. Surely signatories to "humane" tactics in war (ha) should be expected to uphold higher standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:39 PM

Ebbie,

I have seen NO proof offered, other than unsupported claims by some, that Israel HAS performed any act against the Geneva Conventions, nor that IF BROUGHT UP, any such act would not be investigated and the guilty parties, if any, punished. I have seen NO indication that ANY of the guilty parties to war crimes on the Hezbollah side will be brought to justice.

As a non-signer to the Conventions, Hezbollah has given up the protections provided by those Conventions. I am glad to see that you will approve of the summary execution of all Hezbollah members captured, since they are not protected as members of Lebanon's armed forces, and the destruction of all their military equipment as per the UN ceasefire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:57 PM

"Guerrillas who follow the rules spelled out in the Geneva Conventions are considered to have combatant status and have some of the same rights as regular members of the armed forces.

In international conflicts, guerrillas must distinguish themselves from the civilian population if they are preparing or engaged in an attack. At a minimum, guerrillas must carry their arms openly. (Protocol I, Art. 44, Sec. 3)

Under the earlier Geneva Conventions, which are more widely recognized, a guerrilla army must have a well-defined chain of command, be clearly distinguishable from the civilian population, carry arms openly and observe the laws of war. (Convention III, Art. 4, Sec. 2)

http://www.genevaconventions.org/


In the case of an internal conflict, combatants must show humane treatment to civilians and enemies who have been wounded or who have surrendered. Murder, hostage-taking and extrajudicial executions are all forbidden. (Convention I, Art. 3)"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:00 PM

Hospitals may not be used to commit acts harmful to the enemy. If they do, they lose their protections under the Geneva Conventions after due warning has been given and a reasonable time limit has passed. (Convention I, Art. 21)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:02 PM

And guess what? While Israel did provide due warning before attacking a hospital that HAD been used to launch rockets, Hezbollah DID NOT give due notice before attacking an Israeli hospital that HAD NOT been used for any military act.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:05 PM

In international conflicts, civilians may not be used to protect areas from military operations. (Convention IV, Art. 28 and Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 7)

Medical units may not be used to protect military objectives from attack. (Protocol I, Art. 12, Sec. 4)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:06 PM

As for the "justified " kidnapping of Israeli soldiers,

"The taking of hostages is forbidden, both in internal conflicts (Convention I, Art. 3, Sec. 1B and Protocol II, Art. 4, Sec. 2c) and international conflicts. (Convention IV, Art. 34 and Protocol I, Art. 75, Sec. 2c)

In international conflicts, the taking of hostages is considered a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions. (Convention IV, Art. 147)

Also see the 1979 International Convention Against the Taking of Hostages."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:08 PM

As for Hezbollah's STATED objectives,

"Genocide is forbidden by the 1948 Genocide Convention, which covers acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group as such, as well as direct and public incitement to commit genocide.

The Geneva Convention, as well, prohibits murder and adverse distinction based on race, color, religion or faith, birth or wealth, or similar criteria. (Convention I, Art. 3)"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:15 PM

"Prior to an attack, a number of precautionary measures must be taken to ensure that that the civilian population, and civilian objects are spared. (Protocol I, Art. 57, Sec. 1)

These include verification that the objectives of the attack are legitimate military targets, and, if possible, advance warnings in case of attacks that may affect the civilian population. (Protocol I, Sec. 2)"


Israel made PHONE CALLS to the buildings it was planning to attack- AND dropped leaflets. Show me one instance of Hezbollah complying with this requirement

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:49 PM

The bearded one has been indoctrinated by Fox News.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:49 PM

Israel collected ample evidence that Iran and Syria had supplied Hizbollah with anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) and rockets. The evidence was in the form of many captured weapons (often with data plates giving serial numbers and nation of manufacture.) In addition to complete weapons, there were many fragments found, collected, and carried back to Israel. The latest Russian ATGM (the 9M133 Kornet) was found in great numbers. These had been openly sold to Syria back in 2002. If was feared that some might show up in Iraq, but they never did. Iran apparently supplied hundreds of its version of the older Russian 9M113 Konkurs. This is a 32 pound, wire guided missile design from the 1970s.

Russian, Syrian and Iranian rockets were found in abundance, both in Lebanon (intact, or destroyed by Israeli bombs, or as fragments in Israel). Although most of the world prefers to change the subject, Israel will continue to ask why these nations sold all these weapons to a terrorist organization.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:58 PM

Ihave just had my message censored by the US goons that run this Site.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:27 PM

I have no doubt that Hezbollah would come up with claims that they were targetting military targets within the limits of accuracy of their weaponry.

I'd put about as much faith in such claims as I would in regard to claims by Israel that they were doing everything they could to minimise civilian casualties. Precious little in either case.

I still don't think we've had an explanation of how Hezbollah was supposed to be managing to fire rockets at Israel from inside that UN observation post that was precision bombed, and the unarmed observers inside killed.

It's also worth noting that many of the civiians killed by Israeli attacks were nowhere near anywhere from where rockets could possibly have been fired. Beirut is some 60 miles from the Israeli border, and the Katyusha rockets (siege weapons deployed by the Russians back in 1942) have a range of between ten and 20 miles or so.

This was a war between two military machines engaged in terrorism, it just happened one was a very much bigger military machine, and that showed up in the comparative number of civilians killed by both sides. And both would make the same claim that they were acting to defend their country from attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:30 PM

The Iranian model has a range of 45 km.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:37 PM

45km is a bloody long way for an unguided rocket salvo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:48 PM

"Hezbollah is also believed to have a smaller number of longer range Fajr-5 missiles with a range of up to 75km, long enough to hit the West Bank but not enough to hit Tel Aviv.

The only missile in Hezbollah's arsenal believed to be powerful enough to reach Israel's commercial capital is the Iranian-made Zelzal-2 with a range of 200km and a huge warhead of 400-600kg."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:12 PM

Israel made PHONE CALLS to the buildings it was planning to attack

Just think about that statement for a minute and you can see it it total round spherical objects.

The IDF killed six UN observers.

UN observers in southern Lebanon called the Israeli military 10 times in a six-hour period to ask it to halt bombing.

Frankly I believe the UN.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: skipy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:12 PM

arund the cify where I dronk there are are clister bims.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:27 PM

"In international conflicts, the taking of hostages is considered a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions."

Whats that say about Palestinian prisoners held in Israel?

I agree with Ebbie, "Surely signatories to "humane" tactics in war (ha) should be expected to uphold higher standards."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:39 PM

GUEST

I've said before -

"When dianavan's Hezbollah friends "

This is dirty debating tactics you bastard!

"When you have a weak argument, attack the person"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:49 PM

"At a minimum, guerrillas must carry their arms openly. "

but 'regular' military forces may hide their weapons, conceal their uniforms.... as has been done for centuries...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:50 PM

Let's face it the Israelis are bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:09 PM

And so are you DB...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:24 PM

"Although most of the world prefers to change the subject, Israel will continue to ask why these nations sold all these weapons to a terrorist organization"

DON'T get me started!!

1) ALL nations that manafacture arms will flog them to whoever they can get away with. The British sold fighter / bomber jets to an Indonesian regime that was already know to be conducting slaughter against its own people. these jets were later used to great effect against the practically defenceless people of East Timor.
The Americans funded the Taliban to the tune of billions, and trained them - to fight the Russians. At the time, the Taliban were not considered to be a terrorist organisation by the USA - even though were no different in ideology etc., than they are today, because they were on the side of the 'goodies' (i.e the US). The Russians and Chinese supplied weapons to the VC, etc., and the Americans capped it all by supplying weapons to BOTH sides of one war (Iran-Iraq, 1980s, in which 1 million people were killed). The leader of one side was a man now regarded as a monster and dictator and terrorist simply because he bit the hand that fed him. The US funds Israel to the tune of about 1 billion US dollars a year - the biggest recipient of US foreign 'aid', and much of it spent on wepaons. They were even fast-freighting them more bombs just a few weeks ago, because the Israelis had somehow managed to miss a few Lebanese children on their sorties.
Britain, France, Italy, you name it - they have all made the weapons that have been used to kill over 100 million in almost a hundred small wars since 1945. Large parts of countries like Cambodia etc., are practically unusable thanks to the millions of landmines and butterfly bombs dropped there years ago. Then the Big Five (Britain, France, China, Russia and the US) sit on the permanent security council with grave faces and talk (managing not to laugh all the while) about how they are going to ttry and 'police' the world's 'troubled spots'. It would be a big help if they stopped trying to get rich by supplying weapons to the very 'trouble' spots they'll later be trying to 'police'. But that would put their governments at loggerheads with the big military manafacturing corporations. So much for the logo of the UN 'and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares' (by the way, that last quote might not have been so much a message of hope as a message of Apocalpyse from the Bible, depending on how you interpret it).

2) It depends on what you call a terrorist organisation. Is Hezbollah a terrorist organisation? Perhaps so, in that they target civilians (though all Israeli civilans over a certain age are also automatically soldiers and members of the IDF) by firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas. But then, what does Israel do that's so different? And don't talk to me about Israel taking care to avoid civilian casualties!! Hezbollah's rockets are bascially like big fireworks - light the fuse and stand back - they could end up anywhere. Israel has some of the most advanced weaponry in the world, courtesy of its sponsor, the US. There is no excuse for them to manage to kill hundreds of women and children and civilian men, with all that guided technology. Israel is described by many as a 'rogue state' - a polite word for a terrorist state. It directs terror in the form of overwhelming force against Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza - those it doesn't kill on its forays into refugee camps and 'targeted assasinations' it radicalises, ensuring a constant supply of new recruits ot Hamas and Hizbullah.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:42 PM

"those it doesn't kill [snip] it radicalises, ensuring a constant supply of new recruits to Hamas and Hizbullah. "

... and thus a constant need to keep a Militaristic Thug State Mentality, in order 'to survive against those who are trying to destroy us'

Some dangerous lunatic (his own countrymen got those external forces in control of their state to kill him - that proves some of those around thought he was dangerous!) a while ago tried to put forward the idea that being tolerant of, and nice towards those who dislike you, may cause them to stop hating you...

Oh yeah,and they killed Rabin for trying that line too...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:45 PM

"Genocide is forbidden by the 1948 Genocide Convention, which covers acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group as such, as well as direct and public incitement to commit genocide.

Beardedbruce: that is a pretty good description of what the Isareli's are doing in West Bank and Gaza. Don't agree? Just because the IDF isn't in there systematically slaughtering every man woman and child with military precision? But doing it they are, slowly but surely. Every facet of Palestinian life - even that of Palestinians living outside the Isareli state, is carefull controlled by the Israeli securicrats. The wall has bitten chunks of out palestinian land, and what Israeli settlements were disbanded with one hand, were re-established with the other elsewhere. The palestinians have been pushed to the margins, their lives reduced to tatters. When the Israelis conduct one of their so-called 'targeted assasinations' (murders) of Hamas officials etc., they generally manage to kill a few civilians along the way. Given enough time, genocide will be complete. So you still disagree? "Show me the gas chambers" you insist. Remember that long before the first gas chmaber was built in Nazi Germany, genocide was being conducted against the Jews in a variety of ways. Their businesses and commercial enterprises were driven to ruin, their people attacked and roughed up in the streets, their property confiscated, individuals murdered with impunity, their people exiled and driven from the country, the list goes on. All of these things happen in Palestine. The Nazis only got round to building the gas chambers when world opinion could no longer touch them.
Even the elements of racism are already in place. Look at these pictures of anti-Arab grafitti daubed in Hebron, coldly reminiscent of 'Juden' signs of 1930s Germany.

Anti-Arab Graffiti

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:51 PM

I found the graffitti offensive and I'm glad one of those photos showed someone removing some of the offensive graffitti.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:58 PM

In the name of balance Nick :

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39936000/jpg/_39936896_graves_afp_203_body.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40814000/jpg/_40814801_grave_swastika_203.jpg

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/c/c6/200px-GravestoneAldershot2005.jpg

http://www.cnn.com/US/9908/16/jewish.center.reopens.02/swastika.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:59 PM

yes, there is always some hope, even in the darkest times

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:07 PM

My last post 'yes, there is always hope, even in the darkest of times' was a follow up to the post from robomatic "I'm glad to see someone removing some of the offensive grafitti" obviously, not a response to bobad's links. To bobad: "In the name of balance" No, in the name of apologia for the IDF.
I am not suggesting that anti-Jewish grafitti is accepatble. The examples you posted all seem to originate in Europe (France, UK etc., ) where there are neo-Nazi elements (mainly white) that periodically do this sort of thing. None of it seems to have been daubed by Palestinians in either Israel or Palestine. In any case it doesn't negate the point I am making - that contrary to popular belief, anti-Arab racism is a feature of life in Palestine and Israel, and that some Israelis are no different to the rest of the world when it comes to hating people different from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:27 PM

Beardedbruce:
"Israel made PHONE CALLS to the buildings it was planning to attack- AND dropped leaflets. Show me one instance of Hezbollah complying with this requirement"

I think the idea that the IDF made phone calls to all the buildings it intended to attack (and help the baddies escape in time also, how nice) has been thoroughly discredited. Like the UN post they bombed, as mentioned earlier in this thread. A principal justification given by the IDF for this was that the buildings had been used to launch rocket attacks or store rockets. Has anyone ever tried actually firirng a large rocket or even a Katyusha from inside their house, or manouvering one up the stairs of an apartment block? Thought not.
The real reason the IDF targeted so much civilian stuff, especially hospitals and schools etc, is making itself clear as the smoke clears. Most of the infrastructure of this southern region of Lebanon was built with Hizbullah money (Hizbullah are promising the people of the area they'll pump money back into rebuiliding). The Israelis were trying to show, in a perverse manner, the people of the region that Hizbullah can't look after their social needs by flattening all the work of Hizbullah hands that might improve people's lives and make them sympathetic to Hizbullah. In the same way the US has spent years trying to prove that Fidel's Cuba is a disastrous experiment in socialism by maintaining a medieval style siege /blockade around it, coupled with embargoes and sanctions. If they can amange to wear it down by means fair or foul, they'll be able to 'prove'to the people that the best way forward lies with Uncle Sam's free-market economic model. They've been tutoring their Israeli allies well

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:35 PM

"used to launch rocket attacks or store rockets. Has anyone ever tried actually firring a large rocket or even a Katyusha from inside their house, or manoeuvring one up the stairs of an apartment block? "

Gee whiz - must be the same Hollywood guys who can fire a bazooka from inside a helicopter and survive the back blast.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: number 6
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:48 PM

"Has anyone ever tried actually firring a large rocket or even a Katyusha from inside their house, or manoeuvring one up the stairs of an apartment block? "

No ... I can say I haven't tried firing one, or manouvering one up the stairs of an apartment block (certainly not on my life's 'must do' list).

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:58 PM

Hehe...yeah

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:12 PM

"I am glad to see that you will approve of the summary execution of all Hezbollah members captured, since they are not protected as members of Lebanon's armed forces, and the destruction of all their military equipment as per the UN ceasefire." bb

Is that remark necessary? For the record, I do not even believe in capital punishment and I do not believe in war. I recognize that war may be the inevitable end of what should have been happening but it is never the end of hostilities, other than overt. There WILL come a day when war is not only an archaic way to settle differences but also gauche.

(by the way I once was given a dog that I called 'bb'. His last name was 'brain'. And that's a fact.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:34 PM

Would Hezbollah use cluster bombs if they had them?

Does Pinocchio have a hickory dick?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:52 PM

"None of it seems to have been daubed by Palestinians in either Israel or Palestine."

Hezbollah and Hamas show that stuff on their TV programs and teach that in their classrooms. There have been numerous links to it. They have no need to spray paint.

Just one big happy family, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:36 PM

I keep hearing Israeli apologists referring to rockets being fired by Hezbollah from hospitals, high rise apartment buildings and U.N. headquarters. Although I have seen sources saying they were destroyed by Israel, I have seen no evidence that those buildings were used for firing rockets.

Old Guy - Pinocchio didn't have a dick. Hezbollah didn't use cluster bombs. You don't know what they have or have not in the form of weapons.

The links to the photos by bobad are a desperate attempt to blame Hezbollah for anti-Jewish sentiment. Hezbollah has already stated it will not prevent Jews from being a part of a Palestinian State. It does, however, see Zionism as a threat to the Middle East. I see Zionism as a threat to the entire world. Many others agree.

Emotional reactions to anti-Zionism has led many on this forum to feel paranoid and afraid that this means anti-semitism or that others are Jew haters. Once you get past your defensiveness, you might be able to see that by creating an International heritage site where all citizens live in multicultural harmony is the only way to solve this problem which has been festering for years. There are no winners in a war. Try thinking another way.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:41 PM

Once the Hezbollah lovers get past their enrapturement with terrorists, the might preceive that all people who support Israel do not ipso facto hate Muslims. They should try thinking another way.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:47 PM

Hezbollah didn't use cluster bombs.

" Human Rights Watch has separately and simultaneously documented violations of international humanitarian law by Hezbollah, including a pattern of attacks that amount to war crimes. Between July 12, when Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers and killed eight, and July 27, the group launched a reported 1,300 rockets into predominantly civilian areas in Israel, killing 18 civilians and wounding more than 300. Without guidance systems for accurate targeting, the rockets are inherently indiscriminate when directed toward civilian areas, especially cities, and thus are serious violations of the requirement of international humanitarian law that attackers distinguish at all times between combatants and civilians. Some of these rockets, Human Rights Watch found, are packed with thousands of metal ball-bearings, which spray more than 100 meters from the blast and compound the harm to civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:47 PM

"Hezbollah has fired three different types of weapons at Israel so far. The vast majority are 122mm Katyusha rockets, while 220mm Fajr rockets have landed in the cities of Haifa and Nazareth. Hezbollah has also fired several 302mm Khaiber-1 rockets; the first of these landed on July 28 in empty areas near Afula, 50 km south of the border, and another wave hit near Hadera on August 4. In addition, Hezbollah said it had fired Khaiber-1 rockets at Beit Shean on August 2.

Some of the rockets, such as those that killed eight rail workers in Haifa on July 16 and two young brothers in Nazareth on July 19, have warheads packed with thousands of metal ball bearings that spray out from the blast. Launched on civilian areas, the ball bearings are intended to inflict maximum harm."

From a report by Human Rights Watch here. The report lambastes Israel as well as Hezbollah. But I guess the Jew haters will read what they want as will the Hezbollah haters.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:48 PM

Sorry. Cross-posted with you, Bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:53 PM

That's OK - we're cluster bombing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:54 PM

I am so glad that the supporters of Hezbollah are so level-headed. Kind people who always speak using fact and sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:23 PM

Peace - You call me a Hezbollah lover and supporter. I am not. I do hate propaganda, corporate slime, greed and blind loyalty. I want to hear both sides, not just the Israeli/U.S./British spin on events.

Still waiting for the source of the statement that Hezbollah fired rockets from a hospital, the U.N. building and apartment buildings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:59 PM

Look it up yourself. It was linked to on another thread.

While we are at it, you make free with allegations that people who hate Hezbollah (and have for years) necessarily hate Muslims. Stop being so 'butter wouldn't melt in yer mouth' when that type of thing is tossed back at you.

You have never been quick to question Hezbollah's methods. In fact, I have questioned Israel's methods in e-mails to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Jerusalem. I abhor the use of cluster bombs. They are not at all humane. You, however, are still arguing whether or not Hezbollah uses flechette-type projectiles in the rockets they fire, AT CIVILIANS, intentionally. We have absolutely NO common ground to seek peace. Until such time as you can state uncategorically that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization--despite having garnered lots of support from this war, a fortunate side-effect of Israel's foolish approach to the war, then what's the point? You tend to keep thinking that Israel is targetting civilians without realizing that if Israel really was targetting civilians the casualties would be higher by thousands.

I take no pleasure in the deaths of either Lebanese or Palestinian or Israeli citizens as was implied by your friend a while back. However, Israel has a right to exist as do the Jewish people. And they have a right to exist where they are.

Do I think Palestinians have that right too? Absolutely. And do they all have the right to live in peace? YES, absolutely. Will they? I pray they do.

Much of the war is now beyond the ability of either side to stop. Positions have become very entrenched. They said/he said/she said, when really none of them said. It's simply perception now.

I would like Hezbollah to remove from its charter the insistence that Israel cease to exist. But we all know who's calling that shot. (No, it is not Muslims, a people who have no more desire to have their kids killed than the Jews' have to have their own kids killed. It is a leader who deserves the fate he sends kids off to face.)

I do agree that the Palestinians need a home. And that Lebanon has a right to live in peace. And I also think that Israel should enjoy the same rights. As Churchill said, "Jaw jaw is better than war war." I really think that the people getting killed and maimed in the mid-East, regardless of their religion, would agree with Churchill.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:17 AM

Yes, Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. They also provide many social services to the people of Lebanon. I never said otherwise. What I have said is that if I were Lebanese, I would probably want the protection of Hezbollah and I would hate Israel for what that have done to my country, AGAIN.

My point of view is, and has always been, that I expect more from a nation than I do from terrorists.

It doesn't matter if you and I agree or disagree. You have revealed your one-sided, I'm a victimized Jew, poor me personality and thats all I need to know. The only reason I bother to post is to balance your pro-Zionist rhetoric. It makes me sad to think how easy it has been to manipulate the Jewish population into thinking that they have more rights than their Muslim neighbors.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 03:11 AM

The Nazi party provided creditable social services. They say Mussolini made the trains run on time (but I've heard that was a lie).

Considering that Hezbollah initiated the conflict and hid behind civilians they damn well should show up and help the crippled people that they crippled.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 04:11 AM

George Bush says Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation but he is a well known liar and incompetent.A man responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands in Iraq.

Hezbollah is a resistance organisation formed to drive Israel out of Lebanon back in 1982 when the Israeli military destroyed Beirut, killed 20000 of its citizens and helped massacre thousand of Palestinian women,children and old people in the Sabra and Shatilla camps on the edge of Beirut.

Now that is terror on a big scale.

Israel also left tens of thousands of mines in southern Lebanon after the 182 invasion which have been killing shepherds,farmers and children ever since.It has invaded Lebanese airspace ,assassinated individuals and kidnapped almost at will.

Isn't that terrorism?It certainly doesn,t pass for normal behaviour!
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:19 AM

Ifor, Just because Bush says something, it doesn't automatically make it false. I know this is a difficult concept for you, but do try...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:26 AM

ard,

Sorry, I listen to CNN, and read web sites from all over the spectrum- Including Al Jezeera.

Do YOU bother looking at anything you don't already agree with?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:27 AM

"Hezbollah is a resistance organisation formed to drive Israel out of Lebanon back in 1982 when the Israeli military destroyed Beirut, killed 20000 of its citizens and helped massacre thousand of Palestinian women,children and old people in the Sabra and Shatilla camps on the edge of Beirut."

Disingenuous in the extreme. Whatever the rights or wrongs of your POV, if you use terrorist tactics, you ARE a terrorist. That takes care of what Hezbollah are.

Israel has a military machine with the equipment and technology to achieve the minimum of civilian casualties, by the use of ultra precise weaponry.

Instead they decide to use cluster bombs.

The cluster bomb does NOT destroy a target, it sanitises an AREA.

So, even though the Israelis may not (as Hezbollah are) be deliberately targeting civilians, they certainly ARE showing a totally callous disregard for for the lives of civilians in close proximity to the targets they could so easily pinpoint and destroy.

In precisely what way does this make them any better than the terrorists they are fighting?

Dianavan is absolutely right about one thing. I too expect something better from a nation (and a signatory to the Geneva Convention) than that they descend to the same level of iniquity as the terrorists, especially when they have the means to achieve their aims without using such tactics.

As has been said before on this thread, "A plague on both their houses".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:29 AM

dianavan,

Learn to read:

""In international conflicts, the taking of hostages is considered a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions."

Whats that say about Palestinian prisoners held in Israel?"


Persons held for crimes that THEY are accused of commiting are NOT hostages- RANDOM people kidnapped to trade for those prisioners ARE hostages.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:30 AM

Guest Nick,

" Hezbollah's rockets are bascially like big fireworks - light the fuse and stand back - they could end up anywhere."

Glad you admit that Hezbollah has commited war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:33 AM

Really?/

"I think the idea that the IDF made phone calls to all the buildings it intended to attack (and help the baddies escape in time also, how nice) has been thoroughly discredited. Like the UN post they bombed, as mentioned earlier in this thread."

I would like to see some of that proof, as NONE has been presented here on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:35 AM

"Has anyone ever tried actually firirng a large rocket or even a Katyusha from inside their house, or manouvering one up the stairs of an apartment block? Thought not. "

If you bother to find out, the rockets were launched from areas ajacent to the buildings, and the trucks were then moved BACK into the parking garages underneath them.

Ever hear of garages?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:43 AM

dianavan,

"Is that remark necessary?"

Yes. YOU stated that you believe that Hezbollah was not a signatory to the Geneva Conventions, and thus did not need to abide by them. I was pointing out that forces such as Hezbollah are ONLY given the protection of "combatant" status IF they abide by the Conventions: If not, they can be summarily executed as illegal combatants ( or spies): You seem to approve of that state of affairs, by your comments.

If they can violate the Conventions without being brought to justice, they can also be executed without the protections of those Conventions that they have chosen to ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:00 AM

"warheads packed with thousands of metal ball bearings that spray out from the blast. Launched on civilian areas, the ball bearings are intended to inflict maximum harm"

This statement has been repeated endlessly, and I am getting tired of seeing this gibberish nonsense clog up the threads.

Shrapnel is not, as far as I know a prohibited munition. If so, frag grenades, 'daisy cutters', mortar rounds and many other types of munitions that also rely on the shrapnel effect would be too.

But,

As far as I know, there is NO 'approved munition' for aiming at civilians...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:06 AM

"Hezbollah [snip] should show up and help the crippled people that they crippled."

They are. Cash US$10,00 in hand to pay for rent for each Lebanonese family whose dwelling has been destroyed - and there have been a lot of dwellings recently destroyed in Lebanon...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:11 AM

sigh Dianavan, we seem to have morphed again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:23 AM

Sorry, that's Cash US$10,000 - yes 10 thousand.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:59 AM

Sorry, Ebbie,


But do you understand the point that if you do not hold Hezbollah to the Conventions, you CANNOT complain about ANY Israeli action against them that is legal, by Hezbollah's making themselves illegal combatants?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 10:03 AM

As for the use of cluster bombs, there are circumstances where they ARE the best weapon to use- such as when an explosive bomb would cause excessive damage to surrounding structures, but a military target needed to be destroyed. You know, like a truck carrying rockets that was next to an apartment building? What do you WANT Israel to do, just blow up the entire building to get that truck?

Given the number ( 200) out of all the shells and bombs dropped, either it was NOT a major part of the Israeli attack, OR there was nowhere near the destruction that you have been claiming. Pick one.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 10:07 AM

"This statement has been repeated endlessly, and I am getting tired of seeing this gibberish nonsense clog up the threads.

Shrapnel is not, as far as I know a prohibited munition. If so, frag grenades, 'daisy cutters', mortar rounds and many other types of munitions that also rely on the shrapnel effect would be too."


What nonsense? They have been shown, and are certainly prohibited to be used against civilian populations. The areas that Hezbollah was targetting were civilian.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 10:22 AM

"Shrapnel is not, as far as I know a prohibited munition. If so, frag grenades, 'daisy cutters', mortar rounds and many other types of munitions that also rely on the shrapnel effect would be too."

If this is the case then why is HRW citing Hezbollah as being guilty of war crimes for using these weapons?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 10:48 AM

Hezbollah was not a signatory to the Geneva Conventions, and thus did not need to abide by them.

Errr... then there's the BuShite policy that the U.S. of A. (god bless her, and all who sail in her!) which IS a signatory doesn't have to abide by the Geneva Conventions?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 11:06 AM

The Israelis were not targeting non combatants; they are engaged in a war with a terrorist organization that uses civilians as shields for military operations. Cluster bombs are a legitimate weapon against military targets. The fact that innocent lives have been lost is simply because Hezbollah wants it that way. They did not have to start firing missiles at Israel in the first place. Lebanon is being used by Hezbollah, to provide these kind of casualties on purpose. Hezbollah was supposed to be disarmed a long time ago, but wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 11:41 AM

Oh, Dianavan, go follow someone else around.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 12:48 PM

So, anatomy expert, Hezbollah would not use cluster bombs if they had them. Right?

And where did the term "stiffer than Pinocchio's dick" come from

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Geppetto
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 12:51 PM

Tell me. I have a right to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:47 PM

You should know. He had a Hickory dick and with two acorns. That's where the term "nuts" came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Geppetto
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:54 PM

My little Pinocchio was not intended to be the subject of such pornographic ridicule. Have you people no shame?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:33 PM

Beardedbruce:
"Really?/

"I think the idea that the IDF made phone calls to all the buildings it intended to attack (and help the baddies escape in time also, how nice) has been thoroughly discredited. Like the UN post they bombed, as mentioned earlier in this thread."

I would like to see some of that proof, as NONE has been presented here on Mudcat"

1) BBruce - How about using the oul' brain? Let me pitch you one: let's say you decide to drop bombs on say, 1,000 buildings. Some of them are hospitals and schools, quiet a lot of them are apartment blocks. Now the hospitals and schools are listed in the phone book probably - the Lebanese phone book. No doubt Mossad keeps a copy so they can call all their friends in Lebanon. So you make a few hundred phone calls to various schools etc., Phone line's not too hot either, must be something to do with Lebanon still rebuilding itself after so many years of civil war and the last time the Israeli army visited. Brrrng! Brrrng! Hello? Is that Beruit general hospital / Fatima High middle school? / whatever? Hello? We'd just like to tell you that we plan to drop some 500 lb bombs, and maybe a few cluster bombs...hello? hello? can you hear me? hello? I think they got cut off. Hope they got the message though"
Then there are the apartments. There might be 20 families or more living in apartment block. Not all of them have phones. Now, let's get the phone book out again. Ok, so that's number 20, Awaz Road... is there a phone in that block? There is? Great! I'd hate to have to bomb it without at least telling them. Brrng! Brrng! etc.,

Come ON! Does ANYONE serioulsy believe that BS? What sources have you got for it other than the IDF's own honourable word (OK, we agree to the Ceasefire ... ooops! Sorry about that!) Not to mention it helps the guys they want to kill run away in time.
And what about the UN post they bombed? The UN had been calling THEM to tell them not to bomb. That was one place at least that HAD a working phone and was easily contactable, but didn't stop the IDF bombing them fast enough to kill four of them (didn't like having independent witnesses in the area maybe?).

Yes, I have heard of garages. But they dropped their pinpoint precision bombs on the hospitals and schools near where the rockets were launched from. then there was that Red Cross ambulance. Didn't you see that Katyusha sticking out the back doors?

2) Regarding the idea that if the Israelis had been targetting civilians the toll would be much higher: If they managed to kill say even a quarter of Lebanon's people (which would still be an act of genocide if done deliberately) even our jaded and war weary world would have to sit up and take notice. Pressure would have to be brought to bear on the Israeli state and their expansionist plans would suffer a major and perhaps permanent setback.

That is the point I was making about the Nazis in another thread. Nothing the Nazis actually did hadn't been done before at some time. Genocide: even though the term was only invented in time for the Nuremberg Trials, the reality has been around with us since one tribe of cavemen wiped out another, since Rome flattened Carthage etc., Indeed the Jews were victims of numerous anti-semitic progroms in the west for at least a thousand years before the Nazis: York in the 1100s, Spain in the 15th Century, Russia and eastern Europe in the 19th etc., to mention a few. The native American Indians are estimated to have numbered about 6 - 7 million around the time of the arrival of the first colonists. By the late 19th century there were around 1 million left. There are numerous other examples all round the world in most cultures. Victimisation: many peoples suffered it. The Irish catholics in the 17th and 18th centuries under the Penal Laws, blacks under apartheid regimes etc., Peoples were killed and tortured with any method that came to hand.

The Nazis were different principally in two ways: 1) totally systematic 2) sheer scale

The sheer scale of what they had done so shocked even this bloodthirsty world, that SOMETHING had to be done about it, the world had to be shown to have some semblance of justice. Concepts of genocide and international justice were born. And a good thing, too. But they have only been patchily applied. The US has even refused to sign up to the court of justice for fear its own troops would be tried (as they probably would after Abu Ghraib etc.,) So until these ideals are applied fairly and across the board, they are of little use.

Now the warmongering elements of Israel (I am bearing in mind that there are many in Israel who dearly want to see a genuine peace and to get on with their lives without all the bloodshed) are far too smart to actually set out to systematically kill a people and drive them out on a grand and open scale. they do not have enough clout to get away with it in the world as it stands at present. the condemnation would be too great, the backlash too counter-productive. So it carries on, albeit on a smaller scale that doesn't raise too many hackles. If you just kill a thousand or two - well, that's normal enough and won't get anybody away out marching from their muesli. But to kill millions - well, that's a different story.

3) Now, a final point: In my country (a democracy and a republic, by the way) our constitution states exactly where our borders lie. That is, what is and isn't a part of my country, where it starts and stops. Can anybody out there tell me: where exactly are Israel's borders? Can anybody find in the Israeli constitution (or similar document) where Israel states exactly what its borders are, where exactly they lie?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:38 PM

Here ya go. Borders R Us.

From here.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:55 PM

1) "The cluster bomb does NOT destroy a target, it sanitises an AREA"

Interesting term. They sanitise an area. Hmm. Sanitise: to clean, ethnically cleanse maybe?

2) "BBruce:Guest Nick,

" Hezbollah's rockets are bascially like big fireworks - light the fuse and stand back - they could end up anywhere."

Glad you admit that Hezbollah has commited war crimes"

Sure, happy to oblige. The HRW has declared that firing rockets onto civilians is a war crime, that's good enough for me. Nor, for the record do I deny their use of terrorism, i.e that they are a terrorist organisation in methods. I extend that definition though to the Israeli State as it stands. Simply because they wear uniforms etc., doesn't let them off the hook. Terrorising their opponents, whether military or civilian, is one of their tools of trade. Can you bring yourself to make the same admission?

BTW the point was that Israel, with its high-cost, high precision bombs, and its claim to be a law-abiding (i.e non-terrorist) state shouldn'tbe killing any civilians. It is very hard to explain how they killed the ones going to a funeral for instance, if their bombs are so damn accurate, and their care not to hit civilians as high a priority as they say. Not to mention the palestinians they kill all round while attempting to get just one guy driving along in a car (so-called 'targeted assasinations') That's a side show of killing and disreagrd for civilan life that's being going on all along as athe world's eyes were on Lebanon. Maybe if the US was willing to invest some money in helping make the Hezbollah rockets as accurate as the Israeli ones, Hezbollah could aim them more effectively at the IDF military machine and avoid the civilians, just as Israel did.

PS - once again, forgot to put my name to last post (about the phones). Just to keep the record straight.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:59 PM

The new Solar System.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:04 PM

Peace, thanks for the map and website, it was quite informative.

So Israel has actually no declared borders.

But one hiccup, to my mind: the Shaaba Farms (still occupied by Isarel, as far as I know) do not appear as part of the Israeli territory under the 1948 ceasefire agreement. It seems it is a part of Lebanon. They should pull out of that area, perhaps.

Not allowing that Isarelis access to the Wailing Wall etc., was a bit pathetic. Seems like a small concession now, in the face of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:08 PM

Guest Nick

Just because Ifor tells lies on Mudcat, it doesn't make them true and doesn't mean you have to believe them. Even when he/she repeats them over and over and over again.

The Shebba Farms were captured from Syria -- NOT LEBANON -- during the Six-Day War in 1967. They are part of the Golan Heights.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:11 PM

I think that Israel's borders are very clearly defined by those of her neighbours. Therein has been much of the problem, IMO. Incidents in '67 and '73 certainly caused Israel to view a few of her neighbours with suspicion. I hope a large armed UN force gets into the south of Lebanon real quick.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:14 PM

"Six-Day War in 1967"

Another war Israel didn't start.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:16 PM

Yes,

but the point seems to be that if Israel (or the states around) does not agree to those borders, that makes them very flexible indeed, and as you say, therein lies much of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:41 PM

Jordan and Egypt HAVE agreed upon borders with Israel. I posted that information on an earlier thread. The one with Jordan is basically the Jordan River. The one with Lebanon is defined, but Lebanon keeps claiming a part that Israel captured from Syria.

The borders with Syria and any Palestinian state were to be negotiated, once those states acknowledged Israel's right to exist.


Guest, you cannot show me that Israel bombed even 500 buildings, much less 1000. As I never claimed they called ALL buildings, your argument is invalid- But feel free to show me where Hezbollah made ANY attempt to call anyone. Leaflets were being dropped declaring what areas would be bombed by Israel- SHOW ME ONE HEZBOLLAH LEAFLET.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:07 PM

"But do you understand the point that if you do not hold Hezbollah to the Conventions, you CANNOT complain about ANY Israeli action against them that is legal, by Hezbollah's making themselves illegal combatants? "

If a country (or any entity) takes the moral high ground, then any action that is not in line with that, displays them as a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:21 PM

"Here ya go. Borders R Us. "


Hmmmm, that just might make me believe that ALL of Jersulam was to be included....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:23 PM

Ah...

"* Map courtesy of Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs "

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:26 PM

Hmmm,

Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights...

a bit vauge on some details that map....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:26 PM

And of course we all know that Jews are not to be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:31 PM

... and neither is anyone else...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:38 PM

"Guest, you cannot show me that Israel bombed even 500 buildings, much less 1000. As I never claimed they called ALL buildings, your argument is invalid-"

Woooooooo, there's a twist of 'logic' that makes my head spin...


Nick,
I was waiting for someone to dissect the 'they called before they bombed' porky pie...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:05 PM

Something tells me Hezbollah is here on this forum spreading their propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 12:48 AM

Here ya go Robin. More from yer friend at Maps R Us. HERE!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 12:53 AM

And as for Zionism--here is why it exists, in short.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 06:47 AM

Hezbollah is an organisation that uses terrorist methods among others. The same is true of Israel.

Anyone who can't accept that both those sentences are true is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: bobad
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 07:29 AM

One does so for OFFENSIVE reasons, the other for DEFENSIVE, therein lies the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:11 AM

What does "fight fire with fire" mean?

I think who ever initiates a fight has the lower moral ground than the one who is retaliating.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: DougR
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 01:15 PM

Thread Creep warning! Ard's comment about Fox News puzzles me. CNN is held up by many as the paragon of "fair" reporting. "Fair" reporting, it seems to me, means that the news is reported without including a particular political point of view or at least presents both sides.

Fox News has, as regular contributors, Marvin Kalb, Juan Williams, Mara Liason, Alan Combes, and others who are avowed liberals.

Please name the conservative contributors on CNN!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 01:20 PM

TIME-WARNER TBS - AOL (donated 1.6 million to GW's 2000 campaign)
America Online (AOL) acquired Time Warner–the largest merger in corporate history.
Television Holdings:
* CNN, HBO, Cinemax, TBS Superstation, Turner Network Television, Turner Classic Movies, Warner Brothers Television, Cartoon Network, Sega Channel, TNT, Comedy Central (50%), E! (49%), Court TV (50%).
* Largest owner of cable systems in the US with an estimated 13 million subscribers.
Media Holdings:
* HBO Independent Productions, Warner Home Video, New Line Cinema, Castle Rock, Looney Tunes, Hanna-Barbera.
* Music: Atlantic, Elektra, Rhino, Sire, Warner Bros. Records, EMI, WEA, Sub Pop (distribution) = the world's largest music company.
* 33 magazines including Time, Sports Illustrated, People, In Style, Fortune, Book of the Month Club, Entertainment Weekly, Life, DC Comics (50%), and MAD Magazine.
Other Holdings:
* Sports: The Atlanta Braves, The Atlanta Hawks, World Championship Wrestling.

As of April 9, 2003, according to this site.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 02:39 PM

"One does so for OFFENSIVE reasons, the other for DEFENSIVE, therein lies the difference

I think both sides might agree on that. But they'd each claim to be the ones using terrorist methods for defensive purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 02:44 PM

Amnesty International is requesting an independent investigation of both Israel and Hezbollah's actions. That is a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 03:33 PM

good! because both sides went beyond fair and reasonable!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: bobad
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 05:37 PM

Somehow, the words "fair and reasonable" appear odd in the context of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 06:13 PM

I would think that if or when Israel is found in breach of established 'rules of etiquette' in war, it will be somewhet easier finding the right people to take the fall. In Hezbollah's case however . . . .

I think Israel should resort to the same tactics as Hezbollah. It won't get people so upset.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 07:28 PM

BBruce:

Can you show any proof that the IDF called even a half a dozen buildings? They bombed numerous apartment blocks - I saw them in heaps of rubble with my own eyes on the news (luckily I wasn't there in person as I probably wouldn't be round to write this now, but then, neither were you - or were you?) Are you seriously trying to tell me they called any of these apartment blocks, some with 10 or 20 families in them. Who exactly, did they call in the apartment block? And then there's the UN post they bombed, the one that had a field telephone and had gone out of its way to contact the IDf several times, but got bombed anyway.
I'd say I'll be still waiting for some proof the IDF called any of those places years from now.

And by the way, you still haven't answered my question about whether or not you think the actions of the Isareli Army frequently constitute terrorism?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 07:36 PM

BBruce -

And I should add, 'the Israeli state through the decisions, policies and actions of Knesset'

Old Guy: you believe that Hezbollah are spreading their propaganda on this thread? It's evident that you think anyone who doesn't give their unqualified support to Israeli actions are Hezbollah footsoldiers. If that's true, then by implication all those here rooting for Israel must be on the Mossad payroll....

Foolstroupe: I noticed the source of the maps also. Of course they're entitled to air their viewpoint, but obvioulsy it's not going to be an objective one. A perusal of the rest of the website bears this analysis out. It's an interesting site nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:41 PM

"One does so for OFFENSIVE reasons, the other for DEFENSIVE, therein lies the difference. "

I find BOTH equally offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: bobad
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:45 PM

Defense is offensive?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:53 PM

Killing anyone is apparently NOT offensive for some..,

"Kill an Infidel for Christ today!"
from The Crusades...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 09:02 PM

BB:

By that standard, anybody that disagrees with the Hezbollah is automatically an Israeli supporter. It don't work like that.

Maybe I am imagining things but I see guests whizzing in, laying a hate bomb and leaving like a drive by shooter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:43 AM

Yeah
i think you are imagining things Old Guy.You have obviously led a very cosy life supporting Israel and to come up against pro palestinian and pro lebanese on the website is a bit disconcerting...but you 'll get used to it.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 10:18 AM

Supporting Israel does not mean one had a cosy life anymore than supporting Hezbollah or Hamas means one had a rough life. That logic ain't.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:01 AM

"Woooooooo, there's a twist of 'logic' that makes my head spin..."

Must be on loose...




Seems obvious- If I did not claim that ALL the buildings were called, and I doubt that the number of total buildings was that great, an arguement that it would have been too much to make so many calls does not have validity-

1. There were not that many calls to make.
2. If they called some of the occupants of each building, MY claim is upheld.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:13 AM

Nickie, old chum ...




" They bombed numerous apartment blocks - I saw them in heaps of rubble with my own eyes on the news "


I saw numerous pictures of about 6 or 7 apartment blocks- Do you count each picture as a new building when the news repeatedly shows the same one?


"Are you seriously trying to tell me they called any of these apartment blocks, some with 10 or 20 families in them"

Are you seriously trying to tell me that they did NOT call any of them? Why mention it at all, then? Have you seen the reports where the Lebanese refugess are talking about packing up and leaving after getting phone calls from the Israelis? ( seen on CNN Headline News,waving one of the Israeli leaflets and talking about the phone call) Or did YOUR news provider just happen to ignore that?



"Of course they're entitled to air their viewpoint, but obvioulsy it's not going to be an objective one"

THAT is why YOU have to listen to all sides, not just the one YOU have decided is right. Try it, sometime.




"And by the way, you still haven't answered my question about whether or not you think the actions of the Isareli Army frequently constitute terrorism? "

Frequently? No. Sometimes? Perhaps- there have been cases brought before the Israeli Supreme court.


NOW, show me the cases where the Arabs have held any of the Arab terrorists responsible for their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 12:24 PM

Some of the Lebanese say they were warned to leave and when they were leaving, their cars were targetted.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:23 PM

In war, the first casualty is the truth.

There is no doubt as to who started it: Hezbollah (and Hamas in Gaza).

There is no doubt that Hezbollah was well supplied with weapons to use against civilians.

The 'evidence of your eyes' argument which has had much repetitive use in this and other forums is a calculated ploy for sympathy for one side only. This is evident by the lack of balance for there were Arab and Jewish civilian casualties and destruction of buildings well within Israel during this campaign.

Don't forget that Hezbollah was attempting to issue instructions to the Arabs in Israel to get out of the way so they wouldn't become victims. How like the initial war of Independence where so many Arabs left their lands in anticipation of the ethnic cleansing of the Jews from their midst!

This has not escaped the Lebanese civilians who know they are but cattle in the Hezbollah corral, like dead horses the cowboys hid behind when they were under attack in the movies.

Again, the viewpoint is slanted to the near vertical by some of these thread visitors: Any Israeli killed was killed during Hezbollah warfare, any Arab killed was murdered and needs to handled in a court of law in the light of public opinion, never mind the initial border incursion and the dead Israelis.

You can't have it both ways, try as you might.

Bottom line: Don't start a war with Israel (again).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:26 PM

Hugo Ol' buddy, What is the stated goal of Hezbollah and what is the stated goal of Isreal?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:04 PM

"What does "fight fire with fire" mean?" OG

In forest or grass fire fighting it means torching a contained area in advance of the uncontrolled fire's arrival thereby depriving it of burnable material and thus choking it off.

I have no idea how that would apply to warfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:22 PM

From the Financial Times:

"Mr Berri charged that Israel had been seeking to undermine Lebanon's economy and that it had targeted companies during the war, including a milk factory and soft drink distributor, that had won contracts in the region against Israeli competitors. "They impose an embargo on air and sea to deter investors from returning to Lebanon, at a time when there's an oil boom and when the Arabs want to invest here," he said."

That figures.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:41 PM

How like the initial war of Independence where so many Arabs left their lands in anticipation of the ethnic cleansing of the Jews from their midst!

There seems to be an implication there that ethnic cleansing of Arabs was not carried out in Israel at that time. But it was, and highly successfully.

The flight of Arabs was encouraged by instances such as Deir Yassin where a massacre of civilian Arabs was carried out by Israeli forces, though even without that flights of refugees in times of upheaval are commonplace, and such refugees have a legal right to return home.

One way and another ethnic cleansing was duly achieved, with the removal of most of the inconvenient Arabs; and the situation was preseved, and is still preserved today, by means of a sustained refusal to allow refugees to return to their homes.

The result has been a state where Arabs are in a small minority, commonly described as "a democracy", though the fact that half the population had been eliminated from the electoral rolls throws some question on whether that is an accurate decription of the situation, anymore than it would have been in apartheid South Africa, if it had been possible to transfer the large majority of Africans to the Bantustan "homelands".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 07:26 PM

Y'know you guys bring in Deir Yassin so often I have come to the conclusion that that event, if it even happened, was an exception to the rule. I think the Arabs cleared out for the most part due to either their cooperation with or fear of an overwhelming force of several Arab armies.

There is no doubt that the ethnic cleansing of the '48 war was intended to be of the Jews and if the result was Arab flight it was fair dinkum.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:02 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick - PM
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:55 PM

1) "The cluster bomb does NOT destroy a target, it sanitises an AREA"

Interesting term. They sanitise an area. Hmm. Sanitise: to clean, ethnically cleanse maybe?"

Not actually my words, Nick, but taken from a TV series called Future Weapons. They were used by an American officer to describe the purpose of Cluster Bombs, who was quite proudly proclaiming that nothing living would survive within their effective range.



"Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: robomatic - PM
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:23 PM

In war, the first casualty is the truth.

There is no doubt as to who started it: Hezbollah (and Hamas in Gaza)."

No doubt in whose mind, Robo?

There were reports that, the night before the "kidnap" of the two Israeli soldiers, there was a similar incident in which Israeli troops crossed the Lebanese border and "detained" two Hezbollah "suspects.

Interesting difference in terminology, don't you think?

They kidnap, we detain!

Anyone who takes sides in this is, IMHO, missing the point. There is NO high moral ground being occupied here folks.

Hezbollah and the Israeli government and military are equally culpable, and equally unreasonable. They deserve each other, and I just wish they could destroy themselves without all the innocent bystanders getting hurt.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:25 PM

Just check that link, robomatic. Deir Yassin, like My Lai, is an incident that gets quoted because it was unusually well documented. It was not the only massacre of civilians in the course of the ethnic cleansing of Arabs which occurred at that time.

The reason why people fled from their homes at that time were the same reasons people become refugees in most wars, the same reason that, I imagine, most of us would consider doing the same in a similar situation. They feared getting killed, either in crossfire, or in deliberate massacres of one sort or another. News about Deir Yassin was one factor that reinforced this process, and there can be no doubt that those who carried out the massacre and colluded in it had this intention in mind.

It was the same reason why enormous numbers of Lebanese and Israelis fled to safer areas during the war that has just been halted - with the difference that in the earlier case the refugees were not allowed to return home, as they had every right to do. That is what makes it "ethnic cleansing".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:38 PM

"Coming to Terms with Deir Yassin
Ami Isseroff
Presented by the PEACE Middle East Dialog Group"

>snip<

Equally, it is wicked to trade on the misery of past history in order to create new misery. The events at Deir Yassin were the doings of individuals in time of battle. Some Zionists perpetrated bad deeds, but that does not delegitimize the Zionist cause and those deeds should not be used to delegitimize Zionism and Israel. The massacre at Deir Yassin was not planned. It was not part of a Zionist "plot" to expel the Arabs of Palestine. Nobody ordered the massacre, and the mainstream Zionist leadership in Tel Aviv did not know about the attack in advance or order it as far as we can judge. Further commentary about Deir Yassin and the abuse of history in the conflict is here - Deir Yassin: The History of the Conflict as Mass Psychosis.

The Deir Yassin Massacre was not the beginning of massacres in Palestine, nor did the Jews begin the massacres. In 1920, 1921, 1929 and from 1936 to 1939 Arabs rioted and massacred Jewish civilians in pogroms and terrorist raids. In January of 1948, Arab villagers ambushed a convoy sent to the besieged Etzion Bloc. They murdered every one of its 35 members, and mutilated their bodies. All these massacres took place long before the attack on Deir Yassin. Time and again, Arab "civilians" had proven that there were no noncombatants in the fight. They proved it both by participation of their own villagers in blockading roads and attacking vehicles and settlements, and by their own disregard for Jewish civilians. It was this history, rather than any sinister Zionist plot, which formed the background and motivation for the Deir Yassin massacre. ( see - A history of Zionism and the creation of Israel ).   At the very least, we need to acknowledge that some guilt lies on both sides, and that the "tradition" of massacres did not start with the Jews.

The material at this site is not 'Arab propaganda' or "anti-Zionist propaganda." It was researched and written by Zionists who are concerned about the moral image of our state. We cannot bring back the dead. We can tell the truth, offer our sincere apologies, and learn the lesson of Deir Yassin and teach it to our children.


From this site.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:49 PM

BBruce:

You asked why I even bother to mention 'this business' of the Israeli army calling the houses and buildings they were about to bomb. The reason is because people on this thread and other threads keep mentioning it as proof of the IDF's commitment to peace and fair play. So, I did not bring it up first, but I do question it. Frankly, I don't believe it, and I have already explained some of the reasons why.

You reply to my post about having seen the bombed out apartments on the news by saying you saw them too- the same five or six ones over and over. Well, if you think about it long enough, one pile of rubble (formerly an apartment) looks pretty much like the rest.

You say you did not claim ALL the buildings had been called, though you also admit you don't know how many buildings were bombed. At least we agree that the IDF certainly DIDN'T attempt to call some of the buildings. I would go further and suggest they called NONE of the buildings.

You say you doubt many buildings were bombed. You said 'prove even 500 were bombed'
Now today we can be a bit more sure of how many buildings were bombed. The big cleanup has started in Lebanon, and people are coming out of shelter to assess the damage (as no doubt they are doing in parts of Israel). The Lebanese Prime Minister stated at a press conference today that '15,000 homes had been destroyed by the Israeli strikes". 15,000 homes. Now, let's say for arguments sake, that my guesstimate of 10 families to an apartment block (a typical density) is fairly accurate. If each family represents even ONE home, that still makes 1,500 apartment blocks, still well above either of our estimates. That's also assuming the Prime Minister did not mean 15,000 actual individual buildings, each one a home. That figure does not include some 146 bridges destroyed by Isareli air strikes. The number of airstrikes has been estimated as low as 3,000 (still enough to do all that daamge) and as high as 15,000. Though I doubt that latter figure, it was ironically supplied by someone in a letter to a newspaper here, attempting to prove that the Israeli dedication to the sanctity of civilan life was even greater than we previously expected.

The number of airstrikes and sorties does not include the amount of ordinance that was fired by IDF self-propelled guns and tanks, which added to the toll.

You still have to furnish any actual proof that the IDF called even a handful of buildings, AND account for the UN post it hit, killing 4 UN observers.

Now I know you will say 'Lebanese Prime Minister? Hezbollah puppet! UN observers? Hezbollah dressed in blue helmets more likely! 15,000 homes destroyed? By Hezbollah suicide bombers, surely!" But I think that at this stage you must admit there isn't even much logic to the argument the IDF called the buildings etc.,

Re. your tepid acknowledgement that the IDF uses terror tactics, your defense is that when they do, they are hauled before the courts and justice is served. Obviously the judge makes SUCH an example of these perpetrators of extra-judicial murder that they NEVER do it again! Except that they do...over, and over and over again. Let's be honest here: hauled before the courts? Yeah, right. Even if they are, it's 'now be a good boy, and don't kill any more bystanders and civilians when you are killing Hamas officials (at least, the ones you've identified correctly) or I'll have to drag you back here and warn you ten more times!!'
Bear in mind that IDF tactics are decided and endorsed by Knesset.
So, I'll ask you once again: Does the Israeli state act in a terrorist manner? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.

Re. Your accusation that I do not listen to different sides (because I commented the Israeli website 'palestinefacts' seemed biased): of course I listen to other sides. That's what I am doing here engaging in discussion with you and others who root for Israel as it stands ( meaning I am not opposed to an Israeli state either, nor opposed to Jews generally, but I don't agree with the way Israeli policy-makers and those who support them, are conducting themselves. I think it's adding to the problem). It's what I was doing in the first place reading through the 'palestinefacts' website. So, indeed, I AM trying it sometime (now, in fact). Now let me guess what would happen if I directed you to a Hezbollah website (I don't even know where to find one, though no doubt they exist and if I looked hard enough I probably could find one). You would arrive back here in short time to denounce it as one-sided rubbish, and don't pretend that you wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:53 PM

Photo.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 10:31 PM

"Time and again, Arab "civilians" had proven that there were no noncombatants in the fight."

Hmmmm..... The Israeli civilian 'settlers' armed with automatic weapons... obviously noncombatants...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:10 PM

http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/editorials/free-ain-ebel-from-hezbollah-invasion/

Free Ain Ebel From Hezbollah invasion

The situation in Ain Ebel is unbearable. Thousands of civilians have fled to the village from nearby villages and more than 1000 rockets have hit the village, there is no more food neither clean water and diseases r spreading.

Now here comes the most sickening part:
Hezbollah has been firing rockets from the village since Day 1 hiding behind innocent people's places and even CHURCHES. No one is allowed to argue with the Hezbollah gunmen who wont hesitate to shoot you and i ve heard about more than one shooting incident including young men from the village and Hezbollah.
Urgent appeals have been done through phone calls from terrified people who wouldnt give out their name fearing Hezbollah might harm or even eliminate them.

This is the true image of our brave Islamic Resistance, putting the civilians and their homes as body shields to the Israeli bombardements.

Let the message spread and let those criminals move out of the village once and for all.
Free Ain Ebel from the terrorists !

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:34 AM

"At least we agree that the IDF certainly DIDN'T attempt to call some of the buildings."


No such agreement. Try reading what I said, old chum.


"But I think that at this stage you must admit there isn't even much logic to the argument the IDF called the buildings etc.,"

Totally unsupported statement. You have shown nothing of the sort.




"Does the Israeli state act in a terrorist manner?"

NO. The Israeli STATE does not, though some few individuals have in the past and may in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:02 AM

Including rulers of the state, some of them past generals wanted for war crimes...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:26 AM

Amnesty International accused Israel on Wednesday of war crimes in its monthlong battle with Hezbollah, saying its bombing campaign amounted to indiscriminate attacks on Lebanon's civilian infrastructure and population. "Many of the violations examined in this report are war crimes that give rise to individual criminal responsibility," Amnesty International, the London-based human rights group, said in a report on the Israeli campaign. "They include directly attacking civilian objects and carrying out indiscriminate or disproportionate attacks."

"Israeli forces pounded buildings into the ground..reducing entire neighborhoods to rubble and turning villages and towns into ghost towns as their inhabitants fled the bombardments.. Main roads, bridges and petrol stations were blown to bits. Entire families were killed in airstrikes on their homes or in their vehicles while fleeing the aerial assaults on their villages. Scores lay buried beneath the rubble of their houses for weeks, as the Red Cross and other rescue workers were prevented from accessing the areas by continuing Israeli strikes."

Citing a variety of sources, the Amnesty International report said Israel's air force had carried out more than 7,000 air attacks, while the navy had fired 2,500 shells. The human toll, according to Lebanese government statistics, was estimated at 1,183 deaths, mostly civilians, about a third of them children; 4,054 wounded; and 970,000 people displaced, out of a population of a little under four million.

"Statements from the Israeli military officials seem to confirm that the destruction of the infrastructure was indeed a goal of the military campaign," the report said. It said that "in village after village the pattern was similar: the streets, especially main streets, were scarred with artillery craters along their length. In some cases, cluster bomb impacts were identified."

"The evidence strongly suggests that the extensive destruction of public works, power systems, civilian homes and industry was a deliberate and integral part of the military strategy rather than collateral damage," the report said.

Another urgent issue, aid groups say, is the number of unexploded bomblets from cluster bombs littering the southern villages. Tekimiti Gilbert, the operations chief of a United Nations mine removal team, told reporters in Tyre: "Up to now there are at least 170 cluster bomb strikes in south Lebanon. It's a huge problem. There are obvious dangers with people, children, cars. People are tripping over these things." United Nations officials say at least five children have been killed by picking up the bomblets scattered about by the cluster bombs.
Thursday, August 24, 2006 New York Times

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:01 AM

1183 dead and more than 7000 air attacks (leaving aside the navy and army action). Interesting. Let us add the 15,000 homes destroyed (Nick) and it looks as if most of the houses have not been occupied any longer when they were hit. That may even lead to the impression that the IDF mostly tried to keep (civilian) casualties low.

Now what wants AI to tell us? That Israel targeted the infrastructure of Lebanon? I do believe that on the evidence I read. But looking at the numbers AI quotes or knows I don't understand how they come to their unqualified "indiscriminate attacks on Lebanon's civilian ...population" assessment.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:11 AM

report is here, Wolfgang: AI Index: MDE 18/007/2006 23 August 2006

excerpts.. According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) fact sheet of 16 August, 15,000 civilian homes – houses and apartments – were destroyed. This figure is almost certainly an underestimate. The same document reports: "An inter-agency assessment mission to the southern suburbs of Beirut also observed extensive destruction although the full extent is still being assessed. 2,500 housing units have reportedly been destroyed in Haret Hreik and a further 5,000 damaged."(17)

Amnesty International delegates visiting towns and villages in south Lebanon found that in village after village houses had been subject to heavy artillery shelling as well as having been destroyed by precision-guided, air-delivered munitions. The accuracy of these munitions and their trajectory were such that they struck one or more of the main support systems causing the building to collapse or partially collapse under its own weight. In Beirut a vast area of densely populated high-rise buildings, which were home to tens of thousands of people most of whom left apparently encouraged by Hizbullah for their own safety, was reduced to rubble by repeated air strikes.

According to the United Nations Interim Forces in Lebanon (UNIFIL), on 15 August, 80 per cent of the civilian houses had been destroyed in the village of Tayyabah, 50 per cent in the villages of Markaba and Qantarah, 30 per cent in Mais al-Jebel, 20 per cent in Hula, and 15 per cent in Talusha.(18) The following day, UNIFIL reported that in the village of Ghanduriyah 80 per cent of the civilian houses had been destroyed, 60 per cent in the village of Zibqin, 50 per cent in Jabal al-Butm and Bayyadah, 30 per cent in Bayt Leif, and 25 per cent in Kafra.(19)

When Amnesty International delegates visited the town of Bint Jbeil, in the far south of the country, the centre of the city, where there had been a market and busy commercial streets leading from it, was devastated. Every building on the streets was destroyed, extensively damaged or beyond repair. The streets were strewn with the rubble and in that rubble was clear evidence of the cause of the damage, unexploded munitions, shrapnel and craters. The Israeli army seemed to have used every type of munition in its arsenal, with air-delivered munitions, artillery shelling and cluster bomb damage in evidence..

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:26 AM

Thanks for the link, Freda. The "indiscriminate attacks on Lebanon's civilian ...population" statement is not part of the report.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:39 AM

yes, it appears that comment came from the analysis of the AI report by the NY Times.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:00 PM

It appears that the United Nations charging that Israel used cluster bombs unsuitably has motivated the US to entertain the notion.

Here

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:21 PM

Trip Report from Ben Sachs

I've been to Israel many, many times. As we all know, it's a place of many opinions. What's striking about the current situation is the unity. In the country overall, the polls are over 80% in favor of continuing the current action. In the north, the numbers are over 90% across the entire population, Jews, Arabs, and Druze.

Why the unity? Israelis recognize that this is a different war, a different enemy. This isn't about territory. It's about Israel's right to exist. There's no land to trade for people... no way to say... if we just do this, then we can have peace. Hezbollah is well-financed, well-trained, hidden in the civilian population - and would rather die than give up. Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000. The current boarder was in fact "certified" by the UN.

In the south of the country, life goes on pretty much as normal except for the influx of "refugees" from the north. But Haifa, which we visited, is almost shut down. Standing outside the mayor's office at 5:00 pm, there was not a car in sight. At least 50% of the population - those that can afford it or have relatives down south - has left. No shops or restaurants are open. The supermarkets are open for a few hours each day. There is no bus service. Some of the people that have remained in Haifa are the elderly. One couple in their 80's were asked by my cousin to move in with them in Jerusalem. They are originally holocaust survivors from Czechoslovakia. Their response was that they had to pack their bags once they were not going to do it again. Haifa was their home.

Haifa, is our sister city, a city made up of Jews Moslems and Christians that have lived in harmony for 58 years. When the Mayor Yoni Yahav was asked why Haifa has been far less ethnic tension he said that Haifa was fortunate that Moses Jesus and Mohamed had not visited their city

We visited the Rambam hospital, the only tertiary hospital in the north, which supports a population of 2 million people. Its bomb shelter is inadequate. They've evacuated the north side of the hospital; the newborn intensive care unit has been moved to the basement. The ICU is unprotected. I was in it when the air raid sirens went off. The hospital has already been hit once. Many times a day the staff faces the question - do I leave my patients when the sirens go off? I stayed with them in the ICU. Waiting for the 2 minutes before the bombs might hit is, to put it mildly, unnerving.

Some of those in the ICU were victims of a kaytusha attack. These missiles are vicious - deliberately designed for low detonation. The real damage comes from the 1000 ball bearings packed inside that spread out 1000 meters after impact. One young boy in the hospital was lucky; the ball bearing narrowly missed his heart. The morning that we were in Haifa, a missile landed by an apartment building. When we toured the pockmarked site, the smell of cordite still lingered.

The needs are already visible; the old, the young, the poor - Jews, Arabs, and Druze alike. The missiles don't distinguish between populations or neighborhoods. In Nazareth 2 Israeli Arab children were killed by a rocket . approximately 1000 children have been relocated from the north of the country. It is expected that more will follow. The challenge will be when the school year starts and the conflict is still ongoing. The economic cost is impossible to gauge - not to mention the psychological impact of 10-15 sirens going off a day. I was only there for four hours and I still feel the terror of it.

http://boston.ujcfedweb.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=190320

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:32 PM

Old story, old data. No unity in Israel now:

Settling for a Draw with Hezbollah


Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 05:21 PM

freda,

Given the number of airstrikes ("Citing a variety of sources, the Amnesty International report said Israel's air force had carried out more than 7,000 air attacks, while the navy had fired 2,500 shells."),


amount of artillary (enough to "According to the United Nations Interim Forces in Lebanon (UNIFIL), on 15 August, 80 per cent of the civilian houses had been destroyed in the village of Tayyabah, 50 per cent in the villages of Markaba and Qantarah, 30 per cent in Mais al-Jebel, 20 per cent in Hula, and 15 per cent in Talusha.(18) The following day, UNIFIL reported that in the village of Ghanduriyah 80 per cent of the civilian houses had been destroyed, 60 per cent in the village of Zibqin, 50 per cent in Jabal al-Butm and Bayyadah, 30 per cent in Bayt Leif, and 25 per cent in Kafra.(19)
When Amnesty International delegates visited the town of Bint Jbeil, in the far south of the country, the centre of the city, where there had been a market and busy commercial streets leading from it, was devastated. Every building on the streets was destroyed, extensively damaged or beyond repair.")


and level of destruction reported ("The accuracy of these munitions and their trajectory were such that they struck one or more of the main support systems causing the building to collapse or partially collapse under its own weight.")

I trust you will agree that, given the present "civilian" causulties found in Lebanon, ("1183 dead " including over 400 hezbollah members) the IDF took extraordinary measures to reduce civilian causualties to the absolute minimum consistant with the defense of Israeli civilians, and was certainly NOT deliberatly targeting civilians.


If not, PLEASE give me your reasons why not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:34 PM

I don't have to give any reasons to you, Bruce, because you can't read. If the objective info I provide doesn't inform you there's no point.

meanwhile, as linked to by Ebbie,

The State Department is investigating whether Israel's use of American-made cluster bombs in southern Lebanon violated secret agreements with the United States that restrict when it can employ such weapons, two officials said. The investigation by the department's Office of Defense Trade Controls began this week, after reports that three types of American cluster munitions, anti-personnel weapons that spray bomblets over a wide area, have been found in many areas of southern Lebanon and were responsible for civilian casualties.

Gonzalo Gallegos, a State Department spokesman, said, "We have heard the allegations that these munitions were used, and we are seeking more information." He declined to comment further.

In addition to investigating use of the weapons in southern Lebanon, the State Department has held up a shipment of M-26 artillery rockets, a cluster weapon, that Israel sought during the conflict, the officials said.

The inquiry is likely to focus on whether Israel properly informed the United States about its use of the weapons and whether targets were strictly military. So far, the State Department is relying on reports from United Nations personnel and nongovernmental organizations in southern Lebanon, the officials said.

Published on Friday, August 25, 2006 by the New York Times
Inquiry Opened Into Israeli Use of U.S. Bombs
by David S. Cloud

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:42 PM

It's a good thing that there is some accountability and control on Israel's use of weaponry, does the same apply to Hezbollah?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:39 PM

"I trust you will agree that, given the present "civilian" causulties found in Lebanon, ("1183 dead " including over 400 hezbollah members) the IDF took extraordinary measures to reduce civilian causualties to the absolute minimum consistant with the defense of Israeli civilians, and was certainly NOT deliberatly targeting civilians."

You're kidding! Right!

That's 2/3's of the dead are civilians causalties! That's targeting who & what? Please! I'm sure that those 400 dead Hezbollah members can be confirmed correctly, right, just as the returned kidnapped victims weren't mistaken idenities prior to there return. Had they been dead they wouldn't have been returned & they would still be members of Hazbollah. I'd say that the pecentage is closer to 3/4 at the very least that would be civilians if not a lot more.

Israel is not concerned with it's survival, if that were the case they'd have a peace 24/7 year in & year out, year after year, all they'd only need to do is talk without being so stubbon & try using an unknown term to them, called "comprize with compassion" instead of being the "bulling bastard" that they're known for (could the US be at all a wee bit responsible for the foster that type of attitude, in a backyard/backroom sort of way, I think so). This tit for tat game has been just to good to stop playing now. It's a very handy game to play when the rules are abou to change each time it's played & the spin on the blame is oh so worthy of the players, those that can afford to play that is.

Mind you that since it's coming to light, not to surprizingly, that both were being backed by powers much large than themselves, is this headed for a more blantant confrontation between the US & Iran?

I'd say that there's more pushing & shoving going on between these two (Iran & the US) & it's being played out on the fields of the two smaller at their expense & that the only players that have a real say in the matter are these same two with the UN doing it's best to referee one nation that's not within their grasp & a second nation that doesn't even recognize it & is able to play it for it's fool (guess who's who).

Soon it won't matter with the way things are going (do you really think it's getting better?) the spill over it will soon suck the rest of their neighbors in & that'll soon turn it into a global conflict. Keep making excuses for both sides. One is gonna have to give a bit more than the other & usually for that to work it's gonna have to be the big guy giving a little more than the little guy. If both feel that they need to survive. Which at this point the world would be might just be better off if neither suceeded at this rate. They'll still be pointing bony fingers from under their graves.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:10 PM

You remember in the playground how much fun it was to get two kids so riled up at each other that there would be a big fight?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 01:03 AM

Would Hezbollah use cluster bombs if they had them?

If the Red Cross had a terrorist armed force, could they attack a soveriegn nation and gain the sympathy of Jello Brained Liberals?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Slag
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 01:14 AM

Love those cluster bombs!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 02:17 AM

You know why we expect Israel to hold to higher standards? Because we, the West, are on her side.

There isn't much point in complaining about Hezbollah's tactics. We only have to deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 05:01 AM

"That's 2/3's of the dead are civilians causalties! That's targeting who & what?"

Sorry, Barry, you do not address the points brought up.

Have you even read any comments about Hezbollah making military attacks from in civilian areas?- THAT is defined as against the Geneva Conventions, and HEZBOLLAH is responsible for those deaths.

So, the world's best military takes 7000 air sorties (with multiple bombs or rockets), 2500 naval artillary shells, and what 40,000 rounds of ground artillary, as well as a ground attack of 30,000 men to kill less than 1200 people, 1/3 of whom are armed combatants- AND YOU CALL THAT TARGETING OF CIVILIANS?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 07:48 AM

They're still bloody dead...

OK, manslaughter, not murder then...

in some places, that's still possibly a deah penalty...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 08:35 AM

Why try defend the indefensible by pointing at the indefensible actions of the other side?

No one here, so far as can see has been trying to say that Hezbollah firing off rockets in the direction of Israel was right. It was terrorism. But the activities of the IDF in escalating a relatively minor border clash into a full scale war also very clearly involved what by most definitions amounted to terrorism - and pretty clearly had the effect of very greatly increasing the firing of Katyusha rockets against Israeli targets.

What we have seen is terrorism by one side leading to terrorism by the other side, leading to more terrorism by the other side...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:34 AM

Variousb people keep on talking about Hezbollah 'making attacks from civilian areas'.

1) many of those civilians are (or were, the dead ones) hezbollah's neighbours, freinds, realtions or family. Hezbollah live among them generally, just as is the case in any guerilla war. In Irealnd, the IRA lived amongst the civilian population, because it was DRAWN FROM that population, even if some members of the IRA had come from outside areas. To say 'Hezbollah hides behind civilians' is to paint a picture of Hezbollah arriving from outer space to settle amongst these people who were previously living untroubled lives (apart from when they were being invaded by Israel back in the 80s). It is a false picture.

2) The Hezbollah are among civilians BECAUSE the war id being fought in their homeland, in southern Lebanon. If the war was being fought on the other hand in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem etc., then the IDF would be fighting back from among ITS own people. Many IDF army bases are built among the civilian population. If the war was taking place well inside the state of Israel and the IDF was fighting back from its cities and settlements, would we say that the IDF was hiding behind its civilian population, or would we say that Israel had been invaded by Hezbollah and was defending itself because its civilians were under attack?



BTW:

BBRuce: what you said was that you didn't say that the IDF called ALL the houses. Exactly.
So we agree that the IDF didn't call all the houses. I'd just go further and say I don't believe they called any. But at least we both agree they didn't call SOME. Go back and read what you wrote yourself.

Re. your statement:

"But I think that at this stage you must admit there isn't even much logic to the argument the IDF called the buildings etc.,"

"Totally unsupported statement. You have shown nothing of the sort"

Yes, I have. I have supported it with logical argument. But if you don't understand logical argument, then it won't be much help for me to add more of the same.

You, on the other hand still have to furnish proof that the IDF called houses to protect the civilians (other than one or two show houses to present a humanitarian face to the world).

Thanks for clarifying your stance on whether Israel is a terrorist state in actions. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

BBruce: Further: I have managed to find a Hezbollah website. At least I'm fairly certain it's Hezbollah. But, like the site, I would have to say the Hezbollah site does seem a bit biased / partisan. But I suppose the best thing to do is read 'em all and try your own conclusions from this tangled mess. Here's the link:

'Islamic Resistance' website

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:39 AM

In my last post I wrote (originally) that the 'Islamic resistance' website seems a bit biased, and compared it to the 'palestinefacts' site in this regard. But after I'd posted this comment, the word 'palestinefacts' had disappeared. So I've just repeated my comment here again to clarify.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:42 AM

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=11&x_article=1158

At a rally in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley, Nasrallah encouraged worldwide suicide bombing against the West:

    "Martyrdom operations - suicide bombings - should be exported outside Palestine. I encourage Palestinians to take suicide bombings worldwide. Don't be shy about it. (Washington Times, Dec. 6, 2002)"

In an interview with Al-Safir, Nasrallah described his priorities and methods in the first months of Hezbollah's formation:

    "The main effort at the time went into mustering and attracting young men and setting up military camps ....

    The second effort was spreading the word among the people, first, in a bid to raise their morale, and second to instil in them a sense of animosity towards the enemy, coupled with a spirit of resistence...this required us to use the language of indoctrination rather than realpolitik. People then were not in need of political analysis, they were in need of being incited and goaded. (Hala Jaber, Hezbollah Born With a Vengeance, Columbia University Press, 1997, pp. 49-50)"

""    How can death become joyous? How can death become happiness? When Al-Hussein asked his nephew Al-Qassem, when he had not yet reached puberty: "How do you like the taste of death, son?" He answered that it was sweeter than honey. How can the foul taste of death become sweeter than honey? Only through conviction, ideology, and faith, through belief, and devotion.

    We do not want to...leave our homeland to Israel... Therefore, we are not interested in our own personal security. On the contrary, each of us lives his days and nights hoping more than anything to be killed for the sake of Allah. (MEMRI: Al-Manar TV , Feb. 18-19, 2005)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 06:29 PM

That first quote sounds odd - the term "suicide bombings" isn't one that would be likely to be used by Nasrallah.

As for glorifying death in a conflict, that's the stuff people have been pumping out for centuries. The rhetoric varies, but the message is the same: "Give me liberty or give me death" "Let us die to make men free" "Glory-oh, glory-oh to the brave sons who died" "There is some cornewr of a foreign field."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 06:38 PM

"Give me liberty or give me death" "Let us die to make men free" "Glory-oh, glory-oh to the brave sons who died" "There is some cornewr of a foreign field."

A little different sentiment from "cut off the head of the infidel"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:28 PM

bobad: "A little different sentiment from "cut off the head of the infidel""

Nah, come on, it's all the same old stuff. The guys who march off to battle for 'flag and country' or for 'God and country' (while God grinds His teeth and rolls His eyes meantime) are no different from the Arab guy who probably genuinely believes he is making the world a better place by killing a few infidels (those who don't believe in Allah, or have a sense of the sacred. Remember that 'infidel' means 'non-believer' literally) It's the same as people who believed that they were doing a good thing clearing the world of witches, or communists or terrorists as the case may be and the paradigm of the time. The phrase "For God and Country" has a nice to ring to it, but it really meant (and still means) "find the enemy - the guy you don't like - and riddle his body with bullets, or blow him to pieces with the largest bombs you can throw at him, and when he's totally annihalated, dance on his grave"

By the way, regarding lopping off heads:
Americans were horrified when Iraqis lopped the heads off some guys they'd kidnapped, not only because they'd killed them, but because of the way they'd killed them (beheading). In fact, beheading was used all over the world as a means of execution right up to recently. Some countries (such as Saudi Arabia, a US ally of sorts) still do it. It's a fairly quick death if done properly, though I still wouldn't like to try it myself - I'd prefer to die at home in bed at peace, of course. But I also certainly wouldn't like to die in the electric chair or gas chamber, both methods of execution still used in the USA, and which horrify Arabs. The electric chair isn't even famous for being particularly fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:41 PM

Nick

I didn't read those "God" references in the quotations I cited, I see them more as sentiments of liberation from oppression. I know where you're coming from about the patriotism bullshit but I believe some wars , such as the one against Hitler and all he stood for, are justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 12:44 AM

If you are talking about "Give me liberty or give me death" As spoken by Patriots such as Patrick Henry, I think it has a different meaning when said by suicide bomber blowing up a busload of people, many of whom are a muslim.

Now can you affix the term "We will drink the blood of the English" to Patrick Henry? It just dosn't have the same ring as "give me liberty or give me death".

A speech given at the Continental Congress?
"By the life of God, we will destroy the english. We will blow you up. We will take our revenge on you. We will purify our land of you, pigs, who have defiled our land. By the life of God, we will take our vengeance. We are carrying out this operation as harsh revenge against the sons of monkeys and pigs."

Nope. This is just an idiot's attempt to equate terrorisim to the American revolutionary war.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Slag
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 12:50 AM

Don't forget the Gen. Patton speach, "... you don't win a war by dying for your country. You win a war by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." And that is a fundemental difference. Those who love life and freedom aren't strapping on bombs to blow themselves up with a hand full of innocents. "Give me Liberty or give me death." and "Live Free or Die" are NOT sucide chants. Rather it is a declaration to fight regardless of the possibility of one's individual demise, key word there is POSSIBILITY. The suiciders have virually NO possibility of surviving and they have consented to that fact. I can't believe that anyone has to have this explained to them. If you are really that stupid go take up arms, or rather your suicide belt and fight for Hezbollah's cause.

Did I mention that I love cluster bombs? Yeah!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Slag
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 12:54 AM

PS. For those who don't really know, dead is dead be it from a cluster bomb, a suicide bomb, an atom bomb or a knife in your back. The means isn't such a big deal, it's the ends!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 01:47 AM

I think you mean murder is murder.

There are several ways to die and most human beings would rather die of old age than at the hands of another.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 02:27 AM

What is a suicide bombing? Is it murder?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:47 AM

"Did I mention that I love cluster bombs? "

What's your address then?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 02:48 PM

Have the Israelis used suicide vests packed with ball bearings yet? Fair is Fair

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: 282RA
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 02:59 PM

BB, GUEST, Old Guy,

As usual, you lost this argument just as you lose every argument you get into. Israel clearly committed a war crime by dropping cluster bombs on civilian targets.

Even if you were correct that Hezbollah used these areas as launching points for their rockets, that doesn't give Israel the license to blow up the hospital anymore than cops have a right to shoot someone being held hostage because the perpetrator is using him as a shield while firing on them.

This idea that one good turn deserves another and that two wrongs make a right only demonstrates the shocking depths of your moral bankruptcy. Time to drag yourselves home and lick your wounds. We'll argue again some other time, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 03:11 PM

And yet another heard from. The question is still unanswered: If people think that because Hezbollah embeds itself in a civilian population and that makes retaliation wrong because civilians might be killed, then you are establishing new general rules for warfare. There then is no more difference between soldiers and civilians. Hezbollah has treated Israeli civilians as targets for years. Where the fuck were your voices then? WHERE?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 03:25 PM

BTW, where the hell is the Amnesty International report on Hezbollah's war crimes?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:23 PM

"As usual, you lost this argument just as you lose every argument you get into. Israel clearly committed a war crime by dropping cluster bombs on civilian targets"


1. "As usual, you lost this argument just as you lose every argument you get into."

Statement, without any arguement or proof- no validity established.

2. "Israel clearly committed a war crime by dropping cluster bombs on civilian targets"

Invalid on two levels: You have not established that Israel HAS committed a war crime, nor have you established that the targets were civilian. Geneva Conventions STATE that the use of a hospital for offensive military operations MAKES it a military target. Or do you disagree with the Geneva Conventions?


As usual, you have made an unsupported statement and expect others to accept it for no reason other than your inate superiority over the rest of the human race.... What was that about uber-mensche?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Slag
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:17 PM

foolestroupe, I'm beginning to see why you chose your handle. I'd be glad to give you my address since you are intimating that you HAVE some cluister bombs and you are making a not so veiled threat. I'm sure MI5 and the FBI would like to know YOUR address if they don't already have it. ces't la guerre!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:27 PM

"I'm beginning to see why you chose your handle"

Failed subtle ad hominen - read my web page to see real reason why.
:-)


"since you are intimating that you HAVE some cluster bombs and you are making a not so veiled threat."

Only a REAL fool would believe that! :-) Failed intimidation on your part - nice to see you trying to use what is between your ears though. Keep practising.


"I'm sure MI5 and the FBI would like to know YOUR address if they don't already have it."

I wouldn't be surprised if they do, even though I have never left my native shores. In fact I would be proud to be on file.

After all I KNOW I was on film in the 'Uncle Joh' days in Queensland, because I observed the unmarked police car filming everybody who used to go th the La Boite theatre - obvious proof of a hard-core-pinko-homo-nutter-commo!


""Israel clearly committed a war crime by dropping cluster bombs on civilian targets""

Just someone's personal opinion really, you SHOULD be able to work that out!


"Have the Israelis used suicide vests packed with ball bearings yet?"

Not aware of that - but Israeli citizens have used machineguns to attack civilians praying in mosques - the subsequent result of THAT was several years of attacks on Israeli civilians...


"nor have you established that the targets were civilian. Geneva Conventions STATE that the use of a hospital for offensive military operations MAKES it a military target. "

The Geneva Conventions were in place before WWII - why is that much historical WWII war footage of battles for towns show the battle taking place in civilian areas, houses, schools, etc?

Why did the Germans attack Stalingrad? Why did the Russians attack Berlin? Because THAT's the ground that both sides wish to possess.... - nobody in a real war waits for the umpires with their little flags to put everybody in the buses and take them to the playing field - rules are fine things, no doubt, but once the real shooting starts, all rules are off except 'make some other poor bastard die for HIS country'. Any intellectual wafflings are just irrelevant.


"Statement, without any arguement or proof- no validity established."

That's pretty common round here - and since most 'proofs' are really 'beliefs', it doesn't get us anywhere useful anyway.


"Even if you were correct that Hezbollah used these areas as launching points for their rockets, that doesn't give Israel the license to blow up the hospital anymore than cops have a right to shoot someone being held hostage because the perpetrator is using him as a shield while firing on them."

!!!!
:0

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:47 PM

Ok, Settle down Hominems. If we all kill each other we will leave the country wide open to a Hezbollah invasion.


I want to know if Hezbollah would use cluster bombs if they had them?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 11:01 PM

Why not, everybody else who can afford them does...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Slag
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 11:02 PM

Hey there Foolestroupe, are you glad to see me or is that an atom bomb in your pants? Come, on man! A little give and take so as to not get so serious. By the way it's 91 27th Avenue, Big City! Sorry, I haven't visited your web site. Where is it? That is, if you can tell me, wink wink.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 11:10 PM

"a word to the wise is sufficient" - 'profile'...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 11:16 PM

Case closed. The only reason Hezbollah did not use cluster bombs is because they didn't have any.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 11:19 PM

So far the only progress I've seen made on this thread is that nobody has tried to deny that "Israel used cluster bombs"...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:15 AM

And no one has denied that Hezbollah used rockets that were intended to target civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:27 AM

But somebody *has* denied that Pinocchio had a hickory dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:15 AM

Pinocchio was a marionette - he didn't have a dick.

...and those cluster bombs just keep on killing (even during a ceasefire).

From the Seattle Times:

"Hassan and his two cousins, like dozens of other Lebanese civilians, became casualties of war after the 33-day conflict between Israel and Hezbollah had subsided. Since the guns fell silent Aug. 14, unexploded cluster bombs dropped by Israeli warplanes or duds fired by artillery have killed 12 people and wounded 39, according to Chris Clarke, head of the U.N. Mine Action Coordination Center attached to the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon. Two of the dead and 11 of the wounded were children."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Slag
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:26 AM

dianavan, you are right again! That is why Snow White sat on Pinoccio's face and asked him to tell her lies! Alas, now she's infected with termites.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 05:53 AM

200

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:53 AM

No wangs on marionettes?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:08 AM

"But somebody *has* denied that Pinocchio had a hickory dick."

Pinocchio's girlfriend said "Truly, love is a many splintered thing!"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:57 PM

Old Guy: "What is a suicide bombing? Is it murder?"

Remember Monty Python's Flying Circus? - "and remember, murder - murder -is just extroverted suicide!" ;-)

Seriously, though: Re.suicide bombers, I don't buy the argument that religious fanaticism alone can drive people to kill themselves (and others) in such an awful manner. If you look at the bios of some of the palestinian suicide bombers, for instance, they have usually lost a close relative (e.g immediate family) during an IDF raid into refugee camps etc., Secondly, they have few prospects in life - chronic unemployment, marginalisation, erratic education and so on - or at least they can't see any way out of their situation. So, the impotent desire to lash out in revenge for their own losses, plus the lack of prospects for any other kind of viable life have already mixed up most of the ingredients for making a suicide bomber. A conventional gun attack on the IDF etc., has little chance of success. A suicide bomb is much more likely to reach whatever target the bomber intends. But to strap on explosives, a person has to be pretty desperate in the first place, religion is just the icing on the cake. You might say "well, I wouldn't do it, and I've had hard times in my life!" Yes, but if you compare whatever hardship you've suffered to the reality of life in a West bank or Gaza refugee camp, you'll find different levels of desperation. I doubt anyone posting on this forum would want to swap their current life for even one day in a palestinian refugee camp. And indeed, some American workers do go 'postal' from time to time: otherwise normal, sane people, driven to desperation through redundancy etc., go on a shooting spree, and maybe they haven't been inside a church in months or years. (though I'm not excusing the act, just pointing out that the religious motivation reason normally put forward doesn't add up)

BTW, I agree Bobad, some fights were worth fighting, such as the one to ensure Hitler was stopped in his tracks. My worry is that the powers-that-be often use very innocuos sounding slogans to get us all fired up and go out and kill each other, and not even in for our own benefit.   Hitler got the SS out in action with such innocent (at the time) ideas as 'Lebensraum' - 'living space'. Who could argue with that, until you begin to realise it means killing or clearing the people that are there already? It's no accident that most soldiers are young men in their late teens and early twenties: they have no mortgages, few children or responsibilities to family etc., all the stuff that makes older folk think twice (and thrice) about risking their skin so a few fat old f******s can make a few dollars more. I reckon one of the biggest crimes against humanity is that the surplus energy of these guys is chanelled into being trained to kill people (though I don't doubt many recruits may have nobler ideals).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:37 PM

"My worry is that the powers-that-be often use"

Sadam's troops therw premmie babies outof humidicribs in Kawait - much sobbing before U.N. - Sound the bugle, invade Iraq! - wait on, that was a lie?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: bobad
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:43 PM

Don't ya just hate it when fine, upstanding gentlemen like Mr. Saddam are victimized by such callous and malicious lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:43 PM

Breaks a guy's heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dan darragh
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:27 PM

BOYCOTT THE TERRIOSTS OF ISREAL,MONEY GRABBING HUNGRY GETS

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:44 PM

Yeah, bobad, he's claiming that the court trying him has no jurisdiction, it was set up by foreign invaders, and he is still the legitimate ruler of Iraq!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: bobad
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:48 PM

He was never the legitimate ruler of Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST,Geppetto
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:53 PM

I am really getting a f**king pizzed off. Again I have to repeat meself "My little Pinocchio was not intended to be the subject of such pornographic ridicule. Have you people no a f**king shame?"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:55 PM

Sadam.

Fait Accompli.


George Bush.

Fait Accompli.


:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:16 PM

"Sadam's troops therw premmie babies out of humidicribs in Kawait "

Yes, that did turn out to be a lie.

But suprisingly it made it's way into an Amnesty International report and the NY Times:

Amnesty International issued a report today asserting that Iraqi occupation forces in Kuwait had tortured and killed hundreds of people, including 300 premature babies who died because incubators were stolen. The human rights organization's first comprehensive description of abuses in occupied Kuwait since the Iraqi invasion on Aug. 2

Doesn't that cast a doubt of the accuracy of "reports" coming from the NYT and Amnesty International?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:49 AM

I have sent two e-mails to AI asking when the Hezbollah/war crimes report is going to be released. One yesterday to the Canada bureau, and the other to the General Secretariat today. No answer as yet, but these things take time and I guess they're busy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:53 AM

Old Guy - There's a big difference between, "Sadam's troops therw premmie babies out of humidicribs in Kawait" and Iraqi soldiers stole incubators.

Has anyone ever applauded Saddam's troops? Iran didn't even like them. The Kurds hated them.

I now see how you arrive at such illogical conclusions. Logic defies you.

I refuse to argue with a moron. I will, however, continue to refute your bullshit but from now on I'll refer to you as That Guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:54 AM

Sending emails to a company or agency is like shooting bullets at Superman.

They get so much bullshite and spam that email is worthless. Don't hold your breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:57 AM

I won't, thanks for the advice. But NOT sending e-mails is a for-sure way of ensuring one's question is not answered.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:20 AM

"But surprisingly it made it's way into an Amnesty International report and the NY Times:
...........
Doesn't that cast a doubt of the accuracy of "reports" coming from the NYT and Amnesty International? "

Well, since when they issued the report they only had the sworn testimony of those who were prepared to tell any lie to get the US public to approve the war, it's very understandable that they believed it too...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:49 PM

So is Anmesty International able to see through the propaganda and state the real truth or not?

The lie was perpetrated by Kuwait and not the US:

Source: Washington Post, December 7, 2002
Tonight's HBO movie "Live from Baghdad" has journalists repeating the false Iraqi-baby-killing scam perpetrated by Hill & Knowlton PR in 1990. That outrageous stunt before a make-believe congressional committee was part of a multi-million dollar propaganda campaign funded by Kuwait to make sure the US went to war. The crying teenage witness "Nayirah" seen in tonight's HBO film was actually the daughter of Kuwait's ambassador to the U.S. A year later journalists documented that her babies-thrown-from-incubators testimony was false, but most people still remember it as true. TV critics including Tom Shales of the Washington Post are giving the PR scam new life and a new spin. Shales writes that in tonight's HBO film "The horror wreaked on Kuwait is brought back vividly during a sequence in which [CNN producer Robert] Wiener and his team travel to Kuwait to investigate allegations that Iraqi troops had ripped babies out of incubators as part of their plundering -- remember? Too late, Wiener realizes that he and CNN have been duped by the Iraqis for propaganda purposes and that they were allowed into Kuwait only so the Iraqis could use them to help discredit the incubator allegations." But who was and is duping whom? Hill & Knowlton PR duped Shales and the rest of the nation back in 1990 and now tonight's HBO piece will reinforce that Big Lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 01:44 PM

"Well, since when they issued the report they only had the sworn testimony of those who were prepared to tell any lie to get the . . ."

Well, since when they issued the report they only had the sworn testimony of those who were prepared to tell any lie to make Israel look bad . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:27 PM

Copied from a Military Analyst:

Two recent reports from Amnesty International are the latest examples of the human rights group siding with terrorists. In the first of these reports, Amnesty International is not only objecting to Saddam Hussein getting the death penalty (which it opposes in all cases), but it also complained about various procedures. In the second case, the human rights group accuses Israel of committing war crimes in its recent fighting with Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Amnesty International sticking up for the human rights of terrorists, dictators, and other assorted forms of bad guys is not unprecedented. In 2001, the organization sued the CIA to get documents pertaining to the hunt for Pablo Escobar (the head of the largest drug cartel in Colombia). The group claimed that the CIA had knowledge of "human rights" violations committed against associates of the Medellin drug cartel. In 2002, Amnesty International worked to free Ahmed Hikmat Shakir from Jordanian custody. Shakir was known to have attended the January, 2000 al Qaeda summit in Kuala Lampur, Malaysia, and had escorted at least one of the 9/11 hijackers though Malaysian customs. Amnesty International also has regularly campaigned against the holding of terrorists at Guantanamo Bay. The organization also tends to downplay or flat-out ignore violations by various terrorist groups. This includes the beheading of prisoners and deliberate attacks against civilian targets, like airliners and pizza parlors. Amnesty International criticized Saddam's human rights record. However, the group also claimed that the 2003 liberation of Iraq was not justified. In other words, Saddam's regime did bad things, but they did not warrant corrective action – just reports and press releases.

This pattern also holds in their condemnation of Israel including a "disproportionate and indiscriminate response" to the Hezbollah attacks. In their press release and report on the recent conflict, Amnesty International ignored the fact that several thousand rockets were indiscriminately fired into northern Israel, with the express purpose of killing as many civilians as possible. They also ignored Hezbollah's tendency to launch rockets near civilian targets. Israeli counter-battery radars would pinpoint the location and send the air strikes, which attack the site, causing collateral damage. Israel was also acting to rescue two soldiers (who had a human right to not be kidnapped), and some of the targets hit were hit to ensure that Hezbollah could not transfer the soldiers to Iran. Amnesty International also ignored the fact that many of the photos were staged by Hezbollah or altered.

With these press releases and reports, which will get covered by the mainstream media, Amnesty International has aided terrorist recruiting via the repetition of their propaganda. This propaganda now has a veneer of respectability, coming from a third party. It seems that terrorists and other bad guys around the world have a friend in Amnesty International.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:00 PM

Amnesty International suffers from a delusional belief that modern civilised good people should do only good things, and not do bad things, even in teh name of doing good things.


"Military Analysts" are by design rather narrow minded and one sided -theirs - it is NOT A GOOD THING to be prancing around on a battlefield not being narrowly focused...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:12 PM

Back to the original thread concept - the problem is not that cluster bombs explode, but that such a high proportion of the bomblets do not explode immediately - is it a design flaw or feature?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Peace
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:34 PM

Cluster bombs are not humane. (War isn't either, but that is a separate issue.) The same type of problem has occurred in many wars: the problem was and in many cases is land mines. (Korea, Vietnam, Yugoslavia.) Weapons that can hang around after they are supposed to have detonated and later inflict harm on people are by their nature bad news. If you ever want to know what it feels like, stand beside a grenade that hasn't exploded. It does tend to focus one's attention.

I agree with the use of cluster bombs as battlefield weapons. That's the nature of war. However, I still have enough 'civilization' left in me to respect the 'sanctity' of civilians--especially kids and women (chauvenistic as that is). However, that then also may explain my complete and utter hatred for groups like Hezbollah who have seldom targeted anyone BUT civilians. I will repeat: if Israel intentionally tried to kill civilians, I hope that those who gave the orders are tried, convicted and jailed for a long time. I also hope the same for the bastards who gave the orders to Hezbollah, regardless of who or where they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 12:10 PM

Since 1948 850,000+ Jews were stripped of their property and expelled from surrounding Islamic fascist states. Nobody is advocating they be allowed to "return" to their homes or be paid for their stolen property. It's also funny (sick) that nobody complains about the 650,000 "Palestinians" that were expelled from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia after the Gulf War (for treason) back to their "Palestinian" state of Jordan.

Jewish Populations of Arab Countries: 1948 and 2001 Country or territory. This doesn't include those from Iran, Turkey, and other Muslim countries. Jews have lived in what are now Arab states, Iran, and Turkey at least since the Babylonian captivity (597 BCE), about 2,600 years ago. After the conquest of these lands by Arab Muslims, Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians had the legal status of dhimmi. They were entitled to limited rights, tolerance, and protection, on the condition they pay a special poll ("jizya") tax. As dhimmi, Jews were typically subjected to several restrictions, the application and severity of which varied by time and place: residency in segregated quarters, wearing distinctive clothing, public humiliation to Muslims, prohibitions against proselytizing and marrying Muslim women, and limited access to the legal systems.


Jews expelled from Arab countries after 1948:            

Aden    8,000
Algeria 140,000
Egypt    80,000
Iraq    140,000
Lebanon 5,000
Libya    38,000
Morocco 265,000
Syria    30,000
Tunisia 105,000
Yemen    55,000
Total    866,000


Debunking myth: The Jews are Europeans that displaced native Arab people and stole their lands. Wrong! As of 2002 the Jewish population of Israel, even with Russian immigration of the 1990s, is 50% European Jews, 50% Muslim/Arabic Jews (and their children) expelled after 1948 from surrounding Arab/Muslim fascist nations. There was already Jews living there in Hebron, Jerusalem, etc to begin with. If we include the one million Israeli Arabs (Druze, Christian, etc.) the present population is overwhelmingly of non-European origin.
In the so-called "West Bank," Transjordan (Jordan) expelled/killed thousands of Jews and stole their property. This includes places such as Hebron, which had a Jewish community for centuries prior to "liberation" by Arab terror governments that refused to follow UN accords on partition. In fact they have never followed any UN accord and started another war in 1967 resulting in Israel retaking the West Bank, Gaza, and seizing the Golan Heights to stop Syrian terror. They returned stolen Jewish property to the former owners. (They also later returned the Sinai to Egypt.) There never was a state called "Palestine."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:57 PM

From the Jerusalem Post -

What's shocking and I would say, to me, completely immoral, is that 90 percent of the cluster bomb strikes occurred in the last 72 hours of the conflict, when we knew there would be a resolution," Egeland told a news conference.

With a ceasefire in sight, Israel continued the use of cluster bombs that they knew would continue to kill and maim innocent Lebanese civilians.

Totally disgusting!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Nickhere
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:52 PM

"He [Saddam] was never the legitimate ruler of Iraq"

thank goodness we've cleared that one up, though when he was attacking Iran on behalf of his USA sponsors, he was considered to be as such.

Cluster bombs - my objection to cluster bombs is the proportion of them that might remain unexploded after being dropped. There is a big risk of civilan casualties long after the conflict has ended, especially among kids etc., who may pick them up unwittingly (adults would probably recognise what they arfe more quickly). I have the same problem with landmines, which also have the effect of rendering large tracts of land totally useless (one only needs think of Cambodia). I know war is war, and the only object is to win, but if it is at all humanly possible, wepaons like cluster bombs, landmines and so on should go the the same way as gas and chemical weapons and be banned. But then the big military companies would run out of things to invent and sell.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 01:32 AM

"the proportion of them that might remain unexploded after being dropped"

What is the proportion?

Are they painted yellow to warn people of what they are?

Are Lebanese so stupid that if you told them one of those yellow things might explode that they couldn't understand it?

What warnings does Hezbollah give anybody except "We are going to kill you?"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:24 AM

According to todays BBC News a UN spokesperson gave an estimate of over 100,00 unexploded Cluster Bombs, also a report on BBC World Service News says that they are lethal up to 40 metres.
Be proud of your work you US citizens, you always did make the best bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Old Guy
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 11:55 PM

And Hezbollah is the most tallented bunch of killers who specailize in cause civilian casualties.

The "bombed" ambulance Propaganda:

August 31st, 2006 by Administrator

By Andrew Bolt
(Reprinted From the Herald Sun)

IT'S bad enough that friends of Hezbollah terrorists could trick so many journalists with just a tall story and a rusty Lebanese ambulance.
Worse is that some of those journalists seemed so eager to believe this ambulance was indeed wickedly blown up by an Israeli missile fired straight through the big red cross on its roof — leaving not even a scorch mark.
But worst is that even now that this hoax has been exposed, none of the countless writers and commentators who fell for it have admitted to passing on as fact the propaganda of terrorists.
It is this refusal to admit that suggests there was an agenda, after all, to so much of the hysterical reporting of the war in Lebanon between Israel and Hezbollah.
No wonder Foreign Affairs Minister Alexander Downer damned that coverage at a conference in Brisbane this week of Australian newspaper publishers: "What concerns me greatly is the evidence of dishonesty in the reporting out of Lebanon."
Downer could have picked half a dozen examples of that dishonesty — or of incompetence married to a bias. But few are as good as the Case of the Holey Ambulance.
It started on July 24, when Israel was already being accused by much of the Western media of carelessly killing Lebanese civilians. And it started with a cautious paragraph in a media release from the Lebanese Red Cross:
"According to Lebanese Red Cross reports, two of its ambulances were struck by munitions, although both vehicles were clearly marked by the Red Cross emblem and flashing lights that were visible at a great distance. The incident happened while first-aid workers were transferring wounded patients from one ambulance to another."
That same day, Cathy Gannon, a correspondent with the AP news agency, filed the first dramatic account of this latest example of Israeli badness.
She quoted a local Red Cross worker as saying Israeli jets had blasted two ambulances with rockets: "One of the rockets hit right in the middle of the big red cross that was painted on top of the ambulance."
Another worker showed Gannon video of the vehicles he said had been attacked. Gannon wrote that it showed "one large hole and several smaller ones in the roof of one ambulance and a large hole in the roof of the second". She added: "Both were destroyed."
Britain's ITV news promptly accused Israel of war crimes, and showed the same film, given to it by what it called a "local amateur cameraman". Who, exactly?
Britain's Left-wing Guardian added the colour: "(T)he blue light overhead was flashing, and another light illuminated the Red Cross flag when the first Israeli missile hit, shearing off the right leg of the man on the stretcher inside. As he lay screaming beneath fire and smoke, patients and ambulance workers scrambled for safety . . ."
The Boston Globe confirmed there had indeed been an explosion in the ambulance, quoting medic Qasim Chaalan, later pictured lying in hospital, bandages on his head: "A big fire came toward me . . ."

...The bloggers — notably an American one known as Zombietime, whose research I've drawn on — dug out other damning photographs.
A side view of the ambulance, revealing the interior, showed no sign of fire or explosion, or anything to indicate a missile had slammed through the roof and landed . . . where? There was not even a dent in the floor.
The front windscreen was collapsed inwards, not outwards as you'd expect from an explosion that had blown up an ambulance and taken off a patient's leg, and the side windows were intact.
There was more. Chaalan, the medic last seen lying in hospital with thick bandages over his chin and ear, was filmed some six days later giving another interview.
But this time he had no bandages — and the skin once covered by them had no scratch, scab, scar or even stain. A fast healer.
See the complete evidence on www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance. You will, I'm sure, conclude that if Israel fired a missile through the roof of any ambulance, it wasn't this one. And if such a strike had injured a medic, it probably wasn't Chalaan.
In fact, the proof that Israel had fired a missile through the roof of a Lebanese ambulance seemed to rely largely on a fake prop, the word of an exaggerator, and an inconclusive video given to the media by an unnamed Lebanese man.
Was an ambulance truly attacked by Israel? Where's the proof? What we've been shown so far is a hoax.
But it hasn't been the only hoax in the reporting from Lebanon. Reuters had to fire a freelance photographer in Lebanon who'd been caught by bloggers photo-shopping a picture to make a pall of smoke seem thicker.
The cover of US News and World Report magazine showed a picture of a Hezbollah soldier posed with the flames of Israel's vengeance behind him — flames actually rising from a burning tip.
Then there was the Green Helmet Guy, a Lebanese rescue worker — or so reporters said — who always bobbed up at the sites of alleged Israeli atrocities, parading the victims and instructing foreign photographers on how to get the best shots.
There was also the Passion of the Toys, in which spotless, heart-rending toys kept featuring in the foreground of news agency pictures of Lebanese buildings bombed by the Israelis.
On it went, all uncovered by bloggers. A photogenically grieving Lebanese woman was pictured in front of a succession of houses we were told were hers — and each bombed flat by Israel.
The New York Times even ran a shot of a dead Lebanese civilian, posed just like a pieta of Christ in the ruins — only for later pictures to show him back on his feet.
What does all this tell us?
That news agencies, which hire local staff in dangerous places, can't be sure bad guys aren't dictating the coverage.
That so many media "errors" in this past war seemed to hurt Israel, not Hezbollah, indicating something more than chance was to blame.
That Western journalists are often too trusting of the claims of terrorists, and too hostile to the excuses of democracies.
And that the media has a new watcher — internet surfers who ask the awkward questions that too many journalists seem not to ask themselves. Not, that is, if the answer would help Israel."

More Here

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 09:44 AM

Dresden, Hiroshima, London, WTC, King David Hotel, the sack of Rome... etc. ad infinitum


Get a grip

The targeting of civilian populations by military machines
is only new in its method, NOT IN ITS PRACTICE

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: Nickhere
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 08:17 PM

Old Guy - you're missing the point. Cluster bombs are quite small - some less than the size of a packet of cigarettes. Even if painted yellow (and paint fades over time and exposure to the Elements) they cannot always be seen easily. They get hidden in long grass, among stones, between logs of wood, in the gutters of houses, you name it. They get caught in the branches of olive trees, meaning that farmers let most of their crop rot rather than risk getting an arm or leg blown off harvesting the olives. You ask if the Lebanese are so stupid that they wouldn't recognise them if told what they were. I'm quite sure the Lebanese are not stupid, but that still means that cannot risk farming or using certain areas of land, or travelling some paths. And what about Lebanese children? They are not stupid either, but very small children, even when they are warned about the dangers of things, cannot be counted on to follow instructions. The yellow paint on visible cluster bombs might just serve to make them all that more attractive. If I were to arrive along at your house and scatter a few dozen cluster bombs around your garden, hiding a few here and there, don't tell me you'd traipse around without a care in the world, not worrying too much where you put your feet or hands!

Israel may have dropped the cluster bombs to make the area unpalatable to Hezbollah, but it also makes the area unpalatable to civilians who live there, effectively exiling them from their homes. The Israeli army knew this before it dropped them, and most of them were dropped in the last few days when a ceasfire was imminent anyway. You will find a sort-of-parallel situation in Cambodia, which has some 10 million mines still in the ground. Whole swathes of the country are still un-farmable because of them, and every year dozens of people accidentally lose arms or legs or fingers etc., over them. I have just returned from Bosnia myself. As you may remember, there was a war there about 10 years back. What is remarkable is how much destruction there still is - about 30% of the houses I saw were still riddled with bullet holes, people were living in houses that were still being patched up, pocket handerkerchief cemeteries appeared here and there - sometimes virtually in people's back yards, as they were unable to get to the normal cemetery because of snipers etc., It took only 4 years to do all this damage (and the tension still lies under the seemingly normal surface) yet 10 years later people are still trying to recover, pick up the pieces. In Lebanon, the civilians got it worst. All that damage to infrastructure etc., will hurt them the most in trying to get back to normal, find work, build an economy etc., The cluster bombs are just a part of that problem. I was talking to someone last Saturday who has just returned from Lebanon. He showed me photos he'd taken of some of the destruction. It'll be a while before things get back to any way normal there. Yet he told me the Lebanese were estatic, which seemed odd to me. I asked why: it was because despite the damage, they were delighted they'd managed to stem the invasion. They told him the Israeli army spent part of the last few days of the invasion removing their knocked out tanks and other equipment from the front lines before journalists got a chance to take photos of them. When the jubilation is over, however, like the Bosnians, they'll be left with trying to rebuild, no small task. Even the physical rebuiliding will be made more hazardous by the remaining cluster bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel used cluster bombs
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 02:08 AM

"Are Lebanese so stupid that if you told them one of those yellow things might explode that they couldn't understand it?"

You are so stupid, Old Guy, that you don't even attempt to understand why the use of cluster bombs in a civilian area are immoral. Instead, you prefer to think it is the Lebanese who are stupid. Why is that Old Guy? Why are you blaming the Lebanese people for trying to avoid losing a limb or a life? Do you really think they deserve it?