BS:The Death Penalty

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: kendall
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:51 AM

The problem with this case and the guy in England, Martin, is when NOT to shoot.
As I understand it, Martin shot a boy in the back, and this guy shot a girl who wasn't even on his curtilage, therefor neither of the victims posed any threat to the shooter.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Scoville
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 12:10 PM

Thanks, Bobert--it is about revenge in the U.S. It's to the point now where the victims' families are allowed to chew out the convict after the trial, and are often allowed to watch the execution. I'm sorry, I understand the need for closure, but I think that's just sick. I think it's voyeuristic and akin to taking the law into your own hands. The guy was caught and convicted; the authorities did their jobs. And then the good Christians in the neighborhood all get on TV and say how they hope the convict rots in Hell.

I'm aware that there are a lot of cases that are never solved, a lot of guys who get off on technicalities, etc., but when it does work out, I think it's absolutely twisted to allow that sort of direct contact between the family and the convict.




And I'm sick of this "right to bear arms" crap. We no longer have or need a standing militia. The founding fathers had no way to predict what life would be like 200 years later. Most people who own handguns "for protection" couldn't shoot them effectively in the heat of the moment, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 12:28 PM

It may be that, specifically where the death penalty is concerned, the biggest issue is revenge. But as to the whole so-called "Criminal Justice System" here, the biggest problem is that it is really primarily about the potential future earnings or political careers of the opposing lawyers.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:38 PM

back...front... who cares..

Tony Martin had been burgled - not for the first time, the police weren't protecting him. he was quite elderly and it must have been scary for him.

its a bit different from gassing someone, or poisoning them when they've been strapped down. I can't see any justification for sinking that low in your behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:58 PM

KENDALL , you should acquaint youreslf properly with the facts re tony martin, also the criminal records of the burglars who were shot, while they were breaking the law inside his house.
    he was forced to take the law into his own hands through lack of police protection.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:04 PM

MrDux asks:

"..isn't that standing alone a good enough argument against the death penalty?"

No..it is a good argument for VERY careful use of the death penalty and much better investigation of crimes.

I will have to back down a bit and say that there is one other potential problem with widespread use of the death penalty...specifically, that the implementation may get into the hands of vicious opportunists who will use it for personal & political purposes.

I do NOT know how to ensure that it is used sanely and responsibly, but that does not mean that it is thereby morally 'wrong' in general.

It is an interesting bit of rationalization that it is ok to shoot a 'perpetrator' if you (or, usually, the police) can CATCH him in the act of committing certain crimes, but if he survives, or you merely capture him, it somehow becomes morally reprehensible to execute him later!
It's a sticky problem, but it deserves impartial consideration on all levels, and not just emotional reactions to biased appeals.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Peace
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 09:37 PM

1) People who commit capital crimes have indicated their agreement with the death penalty. Who the heck am I to disagree if they think it is apt punishment?

2) Donald Marshall, Willie Nepoose and David Milgard: they each served about 10 years in jail for capital crimes. Each was later determined by the courts to be 'not guilty'.

The 'death penalty' is like those maps whereupon were written, "Here there be dragons."

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:39 PM

Anybody ever come across that very strange book The Mainline Murders I think it was called by the ex policeman writer who wrote The Choirboys? I used to read all his stuff. he wrote The Onion Field as well. One of the murderers in this case was supposed to be the local college principal.

They even made a film about the book. They showed the film on TV over here in England.

Next thing, this guy who's been on death row is found to be totally innocent.

They don't tell THAT story on those police procedural documentaries that they keep showing, boasting about how shit hot infallible forensic science is.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:50 AM

It's a shame about the girl being shot, it's also a shame that the guy who shot her had to live with that type of harassment. It's one the reasons that we get the school shootings. Some kid's life is made unbearable by harmless & thoughtless actions till they reach a breaking point & do something stupid that under normal conditions they would never had done.

As far as the death penalty we've had a past mudcatter John Nolan who's an ex-cop from Scotland & now is a reporter here in New Hampshire get a guy off (Lowell, Ma) of death row by doing some simple foot work & research. At the retrial the judge & former DA tossed it out. So much for the death penalty. One innocent life is not worth the death of all the others. Sad thing is that this is far from uncommon.

I'm The Bully
(words & music by Barry Finn)

CHORUS:
I'm the bully & you're my victim
I need the practice, you need the pain
I'm the bully & you're my victim
I'll keep on you & drive you insane

Oh how I love to stalk the weakling
And the outcast or the lame
Give me a nerd, a geek or a loner
These unfit prey I'll treat the same

chorus

A shove on the stairs when none are watching
A whisper of terror that none will hear
At a hundred paces I still can strike you
And keep it up year after year

Chorus

I'll chase you out of a crowed schoolyard
I'll ban you from the public park
You'll have no friends & no companions
You'll only have a broken heart

Chorus

I'll get the neighbors to gang up on you
If a fool feels friendly, he'll get dirty looks
When you finally fight back I've turned the tables
You're on my turf now & I wrote the book

Chorus

You can cry for help & beg for mercy
And tell the world just what I've done
You can pull a knife or pull a trigger
You lose again, in the end I've won.

Chorus


The police said "He never reported that he was being harassed." No he didn't, probably for the 1st time in his life too. Most people won't follow up reports about this kind of behavior until one day some one's hurt. Then they ask why.

If ya don't know it I've a stong passion for fighting Bully Behavior.
I've never stood for & have never had to live through it but I've sure watch them ruin kids lives & if I were for the death penatly they'd be the 1st to get it. See how unfair of me that would be.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: mrdux
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 01:27 AM

Bill D --

you noted your concern that "the implementation may get into the hands of vicious opportunists who will use it for personal & political purposes." i think that's a very real problem. and i think that points to an even more fundamental problem: forget for the moment about the vicious opprtunists. the entire criminal justice system is in the hands of merely fallible human beings, who -- even if one assumes that they're acting in good faith -- are subject to all the passions and biases to which humans are prone. given that, i don't think it's possible "to ensure that it is used sanely and responsibly," or even sufficiently accurately, to avoid the risk of unjust results.

michael

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Old Guy
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 01:34 AM

Terrorist organizations certainly believe in the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: The Walrus
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:03 AM

If one must have a death penalty, I would suggest that there should be a system of double or even triple trials, the first to establish guilt, the second, with an entirely new judge and jury, to establish sentence, then, perhaps, in the case of a death penalty, a pause then a third trial/appeal before a new jury.

Murders are not identical, the killing of a burgler or a violent and abusive husband is different to the killing of a gang/business rival or a bank teller which are, in turn different to terrorist crimes.

My suggestion would be the the second trial would cover the circumstances of the crime, the likelyhood of repeat and the effect of sentence. To use the above examples the first two cases are not likey to repeat and prison might be a better sentence, the next two are 'business killings' and are likely to be repeated and the perpetrators are candidates to 'go through the trapdoor', while in the case of terrorists, their executions might make them martyrs, in their case either a lifetime of hard labour (or sensory deprivation - the infamous 'white room' concept), may be more appropriate*

As for the Ian Brady case, as mentioned earlier. If he really wants to die, give him a hot bath, a razor blade and instructions on how and where to cut.

W



* Would the prisoners of the 'Easter Rising' be as strongly remembered if they had been banged up in a high security prison, rather than being shot?

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:13 AM

to old guy,correct , as do the american government ,however the latter also kill innocent people. and justlike their old enemy the communists [ or soviet imperialists]believe the end justifys the means. in americas case the end [ arguably]is cheap oil.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:51 AM

Walrus, I don't see how torture (sensory deprivation) is better than the death penalty. Get civilised.

The most disturbing thing to notice from the Peter Woodhams murder is the complete collapse of citizenship and solidarity in parts of UK society. And I don't just mean that the yobs are a nasty bunch. I mean the (corrupt?) police who didn't investigate his stabbing, the selfish and uncaring attitudes of ordinary non- criminal people, bullying attitudes in the home, at school, at work. And the idiot drugs policies that hand over whole areas of our towns to criminal gangs. And the people who aren't citizen enough to pay their taxes or keep to speed limits. And the racial and religious bigots (of any group).

We aren't going to bget rid of these people, but society ought at least to make them ashamed of it.

Of a few random people convicted of previously capital crimes in the UK, which of these would have been usefully executed?

Bulger killers (little kids)
Stephen Lawrence killers (no convictions)
Birmingham bombers (innocent)
Fred West (killed himself)
Harold Shipman (ditto)
Stephen Downing (framed by local police)
John Duffy (in jail until at least 2030)
Ian Huntley (convicted, but found to be mad).

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: The Walrus
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:57 PM

Paul Burke,

I wasn't advocating sensory deprivation, any more than I was advocating hard labour or the death penalty - It is a penalty I'd heard touted around as punishment for certain classes of killers (particulary for terrorists)*.
I could have included the 'breaking' lifers for spares mentoned by someone else earlier, or the old military sentence of 'rigorous imprisonment', where everything is done at the double, to rigid rules, zero tolerence and harsh punishment (think 'The Hill').

W


*The variant I'd heard advocated was not true sensory deprivation but a 'refinement' on the Victorian "silent" system, wherein prisoners were allowed communication of any sort, only with the wardens.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Old Guy
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:11 PM

What cheap oil? It does not exist.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:39 PM

"The avoidance of social respondsibility to act."

Do you mean to say indiference??


Like not giving a shit? or a callous its none of my business
self absorbed life style?
........

My neighbor was 50 feet across the street and was watching me look for my 5 year old son as I called out "Where are you etc." Eventually I found my son had crawled in the car and it was a fairly hot day.

Later the neighbor said he "would have" told me where my son was, since he saw him go in the car.
thanks alot thats cool

This is the same neighbor who says tolerence is the real enemy of Christian America and that Gays are attacking American families.

I only wish the gospel of hate people would just practice the golden rule for a change.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 11:16 PM

Social responsibility to act as in "Do not bear false witness" Call the police and account for what happened. Do not walk away from bad behaviour stop it! If you have to, defend people from violence. Discipline your children, and stop making excuses for their bad behaviour. Be a good neighbour, and care enough to act.

Indifference is just not caring about anything, good or bad.


Your neighbour is not indifferent, he is just stupid. If you had to ask him where your son was, he is not only stupid, he is long past worth educating; in other words, a waste of space.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 11:54 PM

then theres the red hot poker up the bum method.....

no, the idea is that we aspire to a degree of civilised behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 04:45 AM

Red hot pokers are reserved for monarchs.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 04:47 AM

I was just looking through an old computer file - looking for the words of another song that I decided to work on, when I came across these lyrics to a song I wrote for an album - 1999 - it sez here.

How Do They Sleep Tonight?
How are they sleeping tonight along that old death row
are they waiting on each dawn light
as their precious minutes go
Does each heart twist in a knot of fear
For the darkness is coming down - coming down slow
How do they sleep tonight along death row

How can your heart conceive of a judge saying you must die
All those salaried suits with their law degrees listing the reasons why
Your heart must stop, like a broken clock
You must bid the light goodbye
How do they sleep tonight along death row

                                
Tell me now, tell me how, tell me now sweet Jesus
How could you let this be
Are your minds so closed and your hearts so cruel
In the home of the brave and the free

How do you feel on a day when they're taking the next man down
times he spoke with you
and you were glad of a voices sound
Will you cry, will you scream, will you struggle, will you fight
Or does it always pay to be polite
How do they sleep tonight along death row
                
Tell me now, tell me how, tell me now sweet Jesus
How could you let this be
Are your minds so closed and your hearts so cruel
In the home of the brave and the free

The crown of thorns, and the nails and the tree
and its all paid for by you and me and
                        
Tell me now, tell me how, tell me now sweet Jesus
How could you let this be
Are your minds so closed and your hearts so cruel
In the home of the brave and the free


Written and performed by Celtic Minstrel
© 1999 Alan Whittle and David Forbes