BS: Can you British catters help me?

Subject: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: LadyJean
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 12:44 AM

Every year I go to the S.C.A's Pensic war, with ten thousand of my dearest friends, where we play middle ages for a couple of weeks.
A friend of mine has a wicker shopping basket on wheels, that she brings to this thing.
Several other people would like one, and I wouldn't mind selling them, if I can find a source. As it's origins are British, I thought this would be one place to start. At least I can find a name to google with, besides wheeled English wicker shopping cart. My friend found hers at Lillian Vernon, a mail order company. Which isn't much help, especially as they aren't selling them anymore. Thanks for your help, in advance.

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:16 AM

How about starting with a search of images and narrow it down? Here is a Google search on wicker cart. It comes out much different than a search on wicker basket.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 02:37 AM

www.sutlers.co.uk They may be able to help you. Also try ebay UK

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 03:56 AM

Try searching for shopping trolley, they being British things. Divided by a common language again.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 04:33 AM

if you send us a picture of the little shopping cart, perhaps we could all look out for one for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 04:42 AM

Like THIS thing?

I assume you dont mean the smaller ones?

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 04:44 AM

Hmmm...that DID work, now it doesnt...not for me anyhow

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Jeanie
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 04:45 AM

This company sells them: http://www.somersetlevels.co.uk
When you get the website, type into the Search Box either: Product Code W1825 or the word "trolley" and you will see it.

I think this is what you are looking for. The company does say "Delivery UK only" - but if, as you say, you are wanting to place a larger order, you may be able to get them to the US. Worth a try.

In the UK, they are generally known as "baskets on wheels" if you are wanting to search further.

Cheers,
- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 04:45 AM

Try like this:

https://www.manufactum.co.uk/group/174288/dmc_mb3_productlist_pi1.10462.page/1/dmc_mb3_productlist_pi1.10462.num/8/product/838655/Product_Details.2700.0.html

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 04:52 AM

They are very expensive and I should think postage would be pretty prohibitive. I was lucky, I inherited my dear old thing from my Auntie when she died

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 05:05 AM

They aren't authentic ... you do realise this.... just because wicker was used and the wheel had been invented doesn't mean that the wicker shopping trolley had been....

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 06:06 AM

I love the thought of American mediaeval types pushing around the sort of trolley my mother had when I was a kid. Maybe they should sit on Lloyd Loom thrones and eat at Ercol tables as well!

Of course, for the would be 'Celts', most older hardware stores in the UK also sell trolleys in a fetching tartan design with ye olde zippered top and authentick extendable tubular steel handle.

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 08:14 AM

Authentic? The Society?? It is to larf!! Anyway, LadyJean, how about this one , in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 08:27 AM

That's brilliant. I don't usually get that many apples, otherwise....great!

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 10:27 AM

Now to be PROPERLY authentic, it needs the spikes on the wheel axles, a la Boudicca, for mulilating peoples ankles, & busting into queues....

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 10:28 AM

mulilating???

MUTILATING, of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:09 AM

Art, that basket is wonderful! I'll have one, complete with those apples! And while you're at it, I'll take that landscape as well. Summer has been too long down here.

Interesting, the question of authenticity. Wheels certainly would have made it easier, had it occurred to someone. The trick is finding out if it did. Good luck!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:14 AM

the old (non) adage - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.... just cos we haven't found a medieval shopping trolley doesn't mean they didn't have them... or would have had them if they'd thought about it!

Having been involved in hand making things as archaeolgical experiments, let me tell you, until mass production came along, you only made things if you are really going to get a benefit from it. It's so time consuming it's unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:49 AM

Good point. The materials in this wicker cart wouldn't stick around over a long time if exposed to the elements. It is rather naive of modern cultures to assume that things didn't exist because they weren't mass produced. Humans are ingenious at making tools, and always have been. Trouble is, there is another naive modern habit, that is of assuming that people hundreds and/or thousands of years had the same kinds of thoughts as we do today. Beyond the physiological commonalities that drive us, we have to learn to think, and humans have ideas that are always evolving. There are concepts that simply did not exist in all or various cultures until paradigm shifts (another new concept) brought them into common usage. Global location and evolution of religion and writing and reading have had a lot to do with this. There is an accretion of ideas when they are put on paper and remembered over time, remembered perhaps in a different way than if they were part of the oral tradition and changed and shifted as they were passed along.

Very large nutshell to encapsulate a view of the evolution of human ideas, but good luck with the cart. (Will my nutshell fit in your cart?)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:54 AM

SRS - I wasn't making a case for the use of wicker shopping trolleys in re-enactment - honest - I'd be hung, drawn and quartered if any one in my historical interpretation circles thought I was!

Just cos we haven't found a (insert description of many things that come to mind) doesn't mean they didn't have them - but there are many more sources than that to take account of. Still this isn't a history forum so I'll take my pedantry on this particular point elsewhere....

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:54 AM

Of course they had shopping trolleys.

When you were a big butch Roman soldier, you couldn't keep bending over in a mini skirt, so they just chucked their shopping in as they went round the forum.

I expect the downtrodden Brits, vestal virgins, and assorted varlets unpacked for them when they got home.

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 12:17 PM

wld - you are surely not suggesting that roman soldiers did their own shopping are you? anyway - the stuffed vine leaves would get all squashed in the bottom of one of those things - especially with all those apples on top!

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 12:21 PM

They had Frankie Howerd to do all that sort of thing for them...

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:05 PM

Blowzabella, I was just enjoying a bit of a riff on the idea you suggested. I'm not arguing the history of wicker baskets one way or the other, only examining the process of figuring it out. You made a great point.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 03:05 PM

SRS...though this is probably thread creep, it's a very interesting point you make as well. As a history fanatic, particualrly social history, I find it interesting the view a lot of people have of bygone times and ways of life which are so obviously coloured by their modern outlook. Properly to understand history and life in other times, one has to put oneself into the mind of a person of those times and get rid of one's own slant on life from a nowadays aspect.

As far as the basket on wheels thing goes.....I wonder when the first one cropped up and who thought of it??

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 03:38 PM

I'd guess about 1950 .... only a guess....probably way way out

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 10:22 PM

Well, you're not tooo far off-if you're talking about the invention of shopping carts.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blshopping.htm has this info:

"Sylvan Goldman invented the first shopping cart in 1936. Sylvan owned a chain of Oklahoma City grocery stores called Standard/Piggly-Wiggly. He invented the first shopping cart by adding two wire basket and wheels to a folding chair. Goldman, together with mechanic Fred Young, later designed a dedicated shopping cart in 1947 and formed the Folding Carrier Co. to manufacture the carts."

-snip-

"Standard Piggly-Wiggly"?!!

How creative. [snark]

But then again he did create the shopping care. So who am I to quivel over that Piggly-Wiggly name.

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 12:20 PM

I would call it a posh wheelie barra, but I dont think you would get far searching on those terms...

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 01:38 PM

Horse manure on the streets would rather have inhibited the use of trolleys, I would imagine. Along with other material.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 02:09 PM

Everyone had a basket on wheels when I was little.

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 08:22 AM

That type of 'shopping cart' takes your goods to the checkouts or up to the car, Azizi. I think here we are talking about the type you can wheel out of the shop and take your shopping home in. Our local supermarket is only 5 mintes walk away so Elaine or I will sometimes suffer the slings and arrows to wheel a 'bag on wheels' round there. Easier an the arms than carrying huge bags and better for the environment than the car.

I'm sure such a thing would have been available since time immoral but smooth floor surfaces have made the small light wheels available now useable. I would guess the older ones would have been more like a small cart on large wheels?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 08:55 AM

When I were a lad, shopping trolleys were just coming in, usually not wicker but in plastic fabric with an inevitable tartan finish. A lot of people used old prams for loads too big to carry, but in them days (why are they called the Oldham Days? We lived in Salford) most housewives shopped every day, and got bulky stuff delivered, so the amount to carry at any one time was small.

Why not just attach a basket to an old golf trolley or a kid's buggy?

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 10:10 AM

I'm sure that if wicker shopping trolleys had existed in prehistory we would have found remains of them in peat bogs by now - everthing else seems to have been preserved in such bogs - even people (dead ones, of course!).

Come to think of it, were there any prehistoric shops? Hand me that shovel, I'm off to the peat bog to see if I can dig up a neolithic Sainsburys!

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 11:35 AM

Dave the gnome,

Thanks, I understand the difference now.

Some [usually older] folks where I live have folding shopping carts like the 2nd,4th, 5th,and 6th example shown on this page http://www.stacksandstacks.com/html/product50_0.htm. The cart is usually folded when they shop and then unfolded to carry their groceries home.

I've never seen a wicker shopping cart for sale or in use. I guess that means that I'm culturally deprived.

:o}

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 02:46 PM

Azizi, you're not culturally deprived, you live in Pittsburg. My wife insists that the two are not synonymous....

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 03:32 PM

That's Pittsburgh with a "h" I'll have you know.

And as I'm sure your wife as tried to teach you for as long as you've been together.

And as you so well know, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania prides itself in the heights of its culture. After all, we are the home of Stephen Foster.

{I guess I'm proud of that}.

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 11:37 PM

you lot have no sense of history. of course they didn't find shopping trolleys in peat bogs. there wasn't the amount of vandalism in those days and nobody used to throw them into peat bogs.

yer actual roman soldier, when he had loaded up with essentials (Brasso for his helmet, bit of mascara for his triumphant entries, kleenex in case of accidents) he might get home and think - ooh, I wouldn't mind a bit more starch in me tunic, and off he'd go to the forum again - with his trolley, moreover.

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 12:29 AM

Thanks for the leads. I didn't expect this much help, and I certainly appreciate it.   
The S.C.A. is notoriously NOT concerned with authenticity, especially at Pensic.
Though there are certainly Scadians who could tell you, in hideous and horrible detail, the history of baskets in the western world.
Several of them are offering me advice on how to turn the fruits of my garden into alcohol in the coming years.

Pittsburgh,as Azzizi well knows, has a world class symphony, several fine theater companies, 3 major universities, 2 minor universities, and Chatham College, where Rachel Carson was once a student. We have several fine parks, a museum with an internationally known dinosaur collection.
St. Anthony's Chapel, in Troy Hill has the world's largest collection of holy Relics.
Notable Pittsburghers include: The late August Wilson, who set his plays in Pittsburgh's Hill District. Andy Warhol, nee' Andrew Wahola, who once lived in the Hill District, John Edgar Wideman, Billy Eckstein (Once upon a time he and my father were the two tallest boys in Fulton School.) Gene Kelly, Willliam Powell, Thomas Starzl, Jonas Saulk, Honus Wagner, Roberto Clemente, Annie Dillard (We went to the same high school, though not at the same time.) Ethelbert Nevin, Nelly Bly, Sharon Stone and George Romero.
Mary Cassatt, Gertrude Stein and Mary Roberts Rheinhart were all born in the City of Allegheny. (The Steins moved when Gertrude was 6 months old, so her rose may be a rose, but it is not a Pittsburgh rose.)
For the past century and a half or so, business owners have played one ethnic group off against another. End result, we don't always get along too well in this town. But we produce more culture here than we can consume locally.

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 06:00 AM

LJ, Pittsburgh also has my daughter as the coordinator of teen programs at Carnegie Library and can justifyably boost my wife as a Taylor-Alderdice graduate (class of '66).

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 03:59 PM

We've had them for donkey's years!

Hull Chariot

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 09:47 PM

brilliant design. you see the chute from the horse's bum taking the solid fuel to the fuel burner as a means of propulsion.

it was this feature which led to them being banned in the restaurant section of some branches of Tesco.

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 10:41 PM

Lady Jean, you tell'em sister!

Artbrooks,
"Pittsburgh also has my daughter as the coordinator of teen programs at Carnegie Library"

Well, how about that!

Artbrooks, I believe I met your daughter last year or if not her, someone she works with since last February
a small group of pre-teens, my daughter, and I did an interactive session on African American children's rhymes in the newly renovated teen room at Carnegie Library.

Small world...

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: s&r
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 02:59 AM

And there's a pawn shop on the corner in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania...

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 07:51 AM

I found out about this song Pittsbugh Pennsylvania earlier this year through some other Mudcat thread. I bet alot of other people living in the Pittsburgh area arn't familiar with this song which was written by Bob Merrill. Btw, that link is to the DigiTrad.

And for the British Catters and others who may not know this, Pittsburgh is about 6 hours away from by car that other famous Pennsylvania city, Philadelphia. See this photo tour of Pittsburgh - A City of Bridges.

Also, see these Michael Horowits's Photographs of Philadelphia.

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 08:06 AM

"from by car" that's a new form of Pittsburghese just like "yuntz" or 'yintz' [instead of however that contraction of "you all" is written. Actually, I think "yuntz" and "yintz" are really only White Pittsburghese] and "nebby" [which I believe is used by both Black Pittsburghers and White Pittsburghers].

"Nebby" means "nosy" {overly curious about something that's not your bizness}.

And though it aint no biggy {biggy=big deal. This is a hip-hop saying and not a Pittsburghese [meaning a saying originating in Pittsburgh or closely associated with Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania]}, I'll confess that when I wrote 'from by the car' in my last post, that was a typo. I made it because I was rushing to post those posts so I could leave post haste to get to work.

That's my excuse this time. If I use this excuse at 11:30PM Eastern Standard Time {the time Mudcat uses}, you'll know I'm "telling a story" {meaning "lying"}. But if I lie about something that's not "heavy duty" {meaning "a big deal"}, please "play pass" it {meaning "ignore it"}.

Thank you.

:o}

Best wishes!

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 02:05 AM

and you are postulating the theory - its a bronze age yuntz?

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 03:11 AM

"Who you talkin to, Willis?" *

* Yhis question is a take-off of a memorable line from the television show "Diff'rent Strokes".

Hated it.** The show-not the saying. The saying has had more social impact than the widely syndicated television show. I believe this because it definitely seems that that "What you talkin bout, Willis?" sayin has become a part of American [non-Black as well as Black?] snark [lightly sarcastic]vernacular. It is used when somebody wants to ask that question. It's another way of saying "I don't get you drift."

See this excerpt from Diff'rent Strokes-Did You Know?:

"On paper, Gary Coleman's famous line read "what are you talking about?". It was Gary Coleman who said it like "whatchoo talkin' 'bout?" [but ya gotta also say "Whatchoo talkin' bout, Willis'. Willis was the name of Gary Coleman's character [whatever his name was] older brother, Willis [played by Todd Bridges].

-snip-

** The "Hated it" line is also part of American vernacular-for quite a number of Black Americans, at least. It comes from the 1990-1994 African American mostly comedic sketches television program In Living Color.

In one recurring skit, Damon Wayans and another regular actor on that series took on the roles of two Black urban gay art/movie critics. If one or both of these critics really liked something they were reviewing, they'd give it "two snaps up". If they really didn't like something, they'd say in unison "Hated it." . I think at the same time they said this they'd also make the "two thumbs down" gesture.

Btw, Damon Wayans is also responsible for creating the very memorable character "Homie D. Clown", and his signature saying "Homie don't play that" [in this context "play that" means "do that"]. This saying has also become part of African American colloquial culture.[or whatever you call the informal sayings that folks say].

See Homie D. Clown and More Info about "In Living Color". This page includes a photo of the two movie/art critics.


****

Sorry for going off topic. Needles to say, none of this relates even a little bit to LadyJean's initial request for help. I think it was the "divided by a common language" comment that was made upthread that got me off on this tangent. Be that as it may, my off-topic musing may be of interest to readers of this thread.

Then again, this post and others I wrote in this thread [and other Mudcat threads] about African American vernacular may be of no interest to you at all.

In that case, you can ask "What you talkin 'bout, Willis?" You can also say "Hated it" and give these posts two thumbs down.

Or you can play pass them.

or do or say whatever you do or say when you don't like being bothered with something or someone.

In any event, have a good morning, or a good afternoon, or a good evening or a good night {whatever time it is where you are}.

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Can you British catters help me?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 09:12 AM

As I see the situation, she wants to take her shopping trolley to a bronze age re enactment, but she is worried it might not be authentic - and she has to risk her bronze age pals remarking acidly - can I bring my bronze age i-pod then?

That's probably why the Iron Age gang wiped them out - no trouble. The Iron Age boys would have let you park your yuntz outside the cave without quibbling - they knew the meaning of compromise.