BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 05:41 PM

Grose, a very good explanation - but it still requires us to make the assumption that it was god that spoke at Mt. Sinai. Could it have been explained another way? Was it god that speaking to 3 million people? A natural phenomenon which has been described as such? Perhap a UFO? Did it happen at all?   There is no "fact" that can prove this. It requires us to have faith in whatever belief system.

The zoology reference only proves that no such animals have been found - it doesn't meant that they do not exist, or ever existed.

Also, it does not necessarily mean that we are "afraid" of accepting god because we question. Questioning and searching are far different from fear and "wiggling".

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 05:29 PM

Guest, Grose; Thank you for your insightful and courteous comments. Much appreciated but, as you say, I guess I am not convinced.   I won't comment on the rest of your truly moving note but only to the part you addressed to me---and I will do it briefly by, basically, asking a question.

                  When I was very young and went to summer camp I attended the Ethical Culture Camp—non proselytizing and non sectarian.   I think it was the most formative life experience I can recall. Which brings me to my question: Your comments about the 50/50 chances of after life or none (by the way I never spoke of that originally) are perfectly correct. Why then not live life in the Ethical (and cultured, as a bonus) way without worrying of a hereafter?   Our free choice allows us to do that without a fear of a bad afterlife. Or even thinking there is one.

                   I get 50/50 with you as well since I am sure I won't be doing much convincing—but, surely appreciate you comments and insights.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,grose
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 03:39 PM

ron - i'll just refer quickly back to something i said early on in this thread - of the fact that before the jewish people even got into the land of Israel and settled it, the prophecies of the kick-out from that land was prophesied. pretty heavy a prophecy for folks to make up - and dangerous too, because if you give that prophecy and it doesn't come true, folks won't "buy into your religion" IF you were a human being making up these scriptures. However, humans didn't write it G-d did and therefore G-d was able to promise that we would be kicked out, which we were. There are, throughout the scriptures promises and prophecies that "happened" to come true. Not the encoded ones. Plainly written ones, able to be interpreted in only one way - at its face value.
if you and i were to decide on this thread to make up some sort of religion, we would have to come up with a "revelation". Now you and I might come up with some story that both of us get down pat and share it with others. So say, for discussion's sake, that we decide that on this BS: Monsey thread, live chickens came scooting out of our computer and pecked us on our nose, we can work out the details and start selling it to people and tell people that the chickens told us to spread world peace, etc. However, if we ask that everyone who even glances at this thread verify the story, it becomes more problematic, because we then have to make sure that a wider range of folks will say the same story about how many chickens pecked and how they clucked to us. Now, if you are saying that three million folks saw and said the same thing, it gets quite complicated to say it was something that human beings wrote and got folks to believe. Revelation at Mt. Sinai had millions of folks. That is why all the major religions concur it happened. Moslem, Christain, Jews and many others believe it happened. Why such strong belief among folks who often don't agree? cuz it is hard to argue the fact that millions of folks say it happened, that they were there and concur on what they saw and what they heard. Kinda like Holocaust denial. I, for one, know the Holocaust happened because my parents, and hundreds of folks who I spoke to, went through it and concur on the details, on the event, on the fact that it happened.
There are other things (we can do this all day) such as that in the Scriptures it lists the animals that have cloven hooves and don't chew their cud and vice versa. Remember, this was supposedly made up by humans before the flourishing of science and internet access to encyclopediac knowledge. Since the scriptures were written, there has never been found an animal, not even in the wilds of the Amazon, that has cloven hooves and doesn't chew its cud or vice versa that is NOT on the list that is in scriptures. So the human beings who "wrote" the scriptures must be great zooligist and must have traveled far and wide to know that their list would never be able to be refuted.
and on and on...we can do this for day...
ah, but religion demands of us...and that we are scared of...so we find every way to wiggle out of having to see the truth.
my father always says, those who say they don't believe are like those in new york who walk out of their homes to their parked car and see a ticket. Automatic reaction "I don't believe it" with a slap to their forehead. Do they not "believe" they got the ticket, as they stand there with the offending paper in their hand? They believe -they just don't want to deal with the fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 03:03 PM

"its just as confusing as we make it. science can be just as confusing. why would you think it was written by human beings? that is again a mistaken view. (or shall we go back to the 50-50 chances). there are proofs that no human being could have written it. "

I would be curious as to the proofs that you are speaking of.

"for wars starting because of religion, that is one of the most widely quoted lies. c'mon attila the hun was into religion? hitler? "

Hold on there, I never claimed that the cause of war or strife was strictly related to religion. Your points are taken, but then there are examples of how religion played in an important role in other strifes - such as the current mideast crisis, the situation in Northern Ireland, and lets not forget the Crusades. Religion was a factor in these and other issues. The problem comes when you have factions that interpret the rules in unique ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,grose
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 02:33 PM

ron-
its just as confusing as we make it. science can be just as confusing. why would you think it was written by human beings? that is again a mistaken view. (or shall we go back to the 50-50 chances). there are proofs that no human being could have written it. as for wars starting because of religion, that is one of the most widely quoted lies. c'mon attila the hun was into religion? hitler? chinese domination of other lands is based on religion? japan was religious when they bombed pearl harbor? power is usually the motivating forces, thought there have been too, too many wars started because of religion too. however, to blame world strife on religion alone is to ignore the fact that folks, unhappy with their own small backyard, are apt to find ANY reason to go blasting someone else's home apart. 'tis not religion. and many times, what seems to be religion is really other reasons, such as the Crusades, where those recruited to fight were promised financial incentives to go to war - most of that war was economic in nature, giving the peasants and serfs a way out of their class system

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:41 PM

Pontification Alert!

Two kinds of faith
Faith because of
Faith in spite of

The former is the easy one

The latter is the hard one
Keeping the faith in spite of all appearances to the contrary; in spite of all the evidence that you are 100% wrong.
That's the real thing.

That's why it is called "faith" rather than "common sense."

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:37 PM

To Guest Wythe Paradise,

             Apparently Mr. Lezer Kestenbaum has 2 silent partners, Smith & Wesson. There has long been a history or organized crime involvement with the kosher meat industry. You will remember that when the late Rabbi Shulem Rubin was the Commissioner of kosher enforcement for New York State, he was threatened and even physicaly beaten up for taking on Hebrew National when he discovered improprieties with their kashrus. Apparently when they had to "answer
to a higher authority" it was to the godfather rather than to our father in heaven. There have also recently been rumors that Moshe Finkel may have been involved with some partners as well. Their names ended in a vowel and it was not Shapiro.

                                             SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:53 PM

as Wolfgang says, Pascal's Wager (the notion that the 'safe' bet is to believe) has many problems. Pascal offers only 4 combinations of possibilities, saying that you risk a lot if you don't believe.....but there are many, many possible variations on how a god might work, if there, in fact, is one. So many people believe in so many variations of a Supreme Being, that being sure YOU have the right one is a tricky matter.

He might have a strange sense of humor, or he might not have even looked at this universe after 'creation', and just doesn't care. The idea that he concerns himself with "every fallen sparrow" ....or, as discussed, kids with birth defects, *IS* a highly debatable issue.

Saying that "They are created by God for reasons known only to him and we can only try to guess why." is really troubling for some of us.....a Creator who is that capricious with no explanation just leads to subjective speculation, and eventual integration of those speculations into various religious doctrines!!
   Some tell us it is a 'test', some say it is 'punishment'...some refuse to guess, but still accept.

I do know that when a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door and got pretty stubborn about reading me scripture to 'prove' their points, I finally startled them by saying that IF they were right about what Heaven was like, I didn't care to spend eternity in a place run with those rules by such a capricious God!.....I think they soon decided I was not likely to.

I do not KNOW what the 'truth' really is.....all I can do is respect others right to believe and act as they see fit, as long as it really doesn't directly affect me.....and if Jews feel the need to eat certain things and avoid others, that usually does NOT affect me. It confuses me, but no Rabbis have been knocking at my door telling me pork is bad, or that *I* should clean my dishes in a certain way.

I do have difficulties deciding what to comment on in public forums like this where generalized opinions about truth and morals and behavior and beliefs are posted.....I try to reserve comments to cases where it seems someone is suggesting that THEIR beliefs apply to ME.

Thus, this post.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:43 PM

"you think something so complicated as life comes with a manual on how to get the most of it? That is our vision of what G-d given rules are, the owner's manual to the world."

Oh my god, I hope not!   As far as I can tell, all these books of scripture were written by human beings - none of whom were perfect.   

I would like to think that if there is a god, he or she would not be so confusing if he or she wanted to give us rules to follow. All this interpretation and misinterpretation has led to wars and strife.

I would hope that individuals find their own individual paths, and follow whatever set of rules they choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,grose
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:12 PM

wolfgang: as I had said in my last post, i know G-d to be 100%, as well as the afterlife. I give you the 50-50 to be "fair" to the convoluted views that G-d does not exist. Just because you don't believe in Him doesn't make him not exist, hence as per my outlook there is 100-0. Yet, to have debate, we must keep an open mind, so I put it at 50-50.
I would not be surprised to find non-kosher meat eaters near G-d. In fact, Jews believe non-Jews have a chance at eternal life by being good people and not based on kosher/non-kosher meat eating. However, it is not just about reward and punishment, religion. It is much more weighty than that. I was just discussing afterlife with Bill because he brought it up. And that is just one part of the discussion - the more serious part is this: I bought a camera, a fairly complicated one. I want to use it to the fullest use. I start playing around with it to get it to take pictures. Somehow I get it to do some of what it can do - but never get it to do all that it can do...until one day I realize, guess what the manufacturer who made it knows how to work this dang thing. So I finally pull out the owner's manual and read it. Wouldn't you know, I now know how to optimize using this thing. We understand this with everything in life, even to our scientific minds, we understand that there are rules that maximize and optimize usage of our bodies, our brains, our machinery. How about life itself, Wolfgang, don't you think something so complicated as life comes with a manual on how to get the most of it? That is our vision of what G-d given rules are, the owner's manual to the world.
And yes, that is also open to discussion, which way is right, which fork in the road of religion to take -- and there are multiple ways of ascertaining which way to go. but that is not for the here and now. (just don't wait until the afterhere - figure it out some place in between those two point of time ;))

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:00 PM

grose, that's a dumbed-down version of Pascal's wager with more holes in it than an old bucket.
(1) When there are two alternatives the probabilities don't have to be fifty-fifty. Like: During the next year, there will either be a war between Canada and the USA or there won't. Therefore, there is a 50% probability of a war. Silly.
(2) There are many religions and sects, so if you follow the rules of one sect or religion, chances are that the real God may tell you after your death that you should have followed the rules of the....to gain eternal life.
(3) Many religions portray their God as benign. There are chances that a benign God may accept all good people near him whether they have followed a specific set of rules or not. (I grin to myself as I picture an orthodox Jew debating with God after his death why all those non-Kosher eaters have been admitted to heaven as well and God telling him that he didn't actually care about the rules but about leading a good life)
(4) An omniscient God would know if the rules are only obeyed with an eye to the afterlife and therefore would punish those who have followed the rules for that reason alone.

These are just some of the many arguments against Pascal's wager.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,grose
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 11:44 AM

Hi there, Bill Hahn,
some interesting insights, some interesting questions, but not quite adding up as logically as you want to live life by logic. Dr. Dale Gottlieb, who once was an Ivy League physics professor, explains something you must know. You say it is doubtful whether my way or your way is truthful. There might be an afterlife, there might not be. 50-50 chance. Being a reasonable person, I would have to say this: supposing I'm wrong and there is no after-life - what did I lose by living my life according to the most amazing set of laws that we have and learning to self-discpline and self-control based on these laws. If however, I'm right and you're wrong, you have much to lose by not living by those laws. Therefore, no one ever lost by living life according to the dictates of the G-d given laws, because if we are right, we lived life right and get our reward - and if we're wrong we still lived life, albeit with some restrictions and guidance, but with no harm. Ergo, a prudent person might decide to live a life guided by the belief of after-life, just to keep his after-life safe if there is that 50% chance that it exists.
Having said that, let me reassure you that I know it to be 100% true, but that I can't convince you of that 100%, so am taking the high road with keeping it 50-50 in this discussion. ;)
As for those who complain that the good things happen to the bad folks, etc. You were born in the midst of things and die in the midst of things. You cannot see from one end of the world to another, nor can you see from the beginning of time until the end of time. You see only one small slice of a play and think you can make a judgment call about the entire work of art. Only when you sit through the whole screening can you really grasp what is going on. Until we get to the next world, we won't be able to say "aha" because it is only then you will be allowed the full screening and you will see that life is extremely fair. However, I noticed that if you start paying attention, you can see glimpses every now and then.
As for the image of G-d concept, that is what is problematic with taking a Bible concept out of context. We are asked when we learn, "what does it mean that man is created in G-d's image" and the answer, folks, is not that we are mirror images of G-d (it doesn't say that - to bolster the rabbi's insight, the word used is B'Tzelem, which does not mean a mirror image - it means a statue- but I digress so back to what does image of G-d mean). Image of G-d means that we are given free choice, just as G-d has free choice. That is the whole of it. We can choose bad. We can chose good. Just as G-d can do the same.
Being the aunt of a darling Downe-Syndrome child, I take offense that folks think they are a mess-up, an error, so to speak, a bad thing. My sister knew she was carrying a Downe-Syndrome child during her pregnancy and was a high risk patient because of blood-clotting issues. She could have gone about her day and the fetus would have been aborted. However, my sister realized that human definition of perfect is imperfect, so she made sure to have that be a viable pregnancy, being bed-bound for most of it. When her daughter was born, she named her Basya, which means daugther of G-d. Yes, she is different than other children, but what makes her less than perfect. She is created the way she needed to be created for the role she needs to play. Each instrument in a band brings its own unique tone to the music. Each person is a different instrument in the music of the world. No one should think a drum imperfect because it appears to our judgmental eyes "less sophisticated" "less perfect" than the highly-polished, intricately strung, highly-sensitive guitar. They are just different instruments, just as I am just as imperfect or perfect as my darling niece.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,WYTHE PARADISE
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:30 AM

Breaking News: Williamsburg catering hall "WYTHE PARADISE" caught with questionable meat.

Rabbi Shmiel Berger the Rav Hamachshir of several catering halls and many establishments in Williamsburg (including the famous "CONTINENTAL" weddding hall) took off his hashgacha from the catering hall "WYTHE PARADISE" located at 712 Wythe Ave. after confronting the owner who couldn't provide matching Invoices against the Meats that was used in the establishment, the owner MR. LEZER KESTENBAUM of Williamsburg and his Manager MR. KALMEN WEISS where questioned by the rabbi when the number of poundage of meats that were consumed by the facility didn't match invoices, when the owner MR. LEZER KESTENBAUM threatened the rabbi with threat's and mafia tactics if the rabbi will disclose it publicly, the rabbi convened an emergency meeting with the expert rabbanim of the Monsey Shevach scandal and the Rabbanim of the CRC where it was decided that Rabbi Berger must immeadiatly cease his hechsher from the establishment and notify the public, a public letter has been posted all over Williamsburg declaring the rabbanim's decision, and over 60 schuedled simchas have been cancelled already, MR. LEZER KESTENBAUM who is a well known "G'VAR ALIM" who was also indicted for defrauding the Proctor & Gamble Company with millions of dollars supposedly told the rabbi that he will finish him off like he did with other's if this becomes public, we congratulate Rabbi Berger for not getting scared off by mafia tactics and acting according to the rules of halacha.

Posted by: WHYTHE PARADISE / WILLIAMSBURG | September 19, 2006 at 10:04 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 10:12 PM

Spaw, I don't have an answer on that one at the moment, but I feel for ya. Hope that's OK witcha.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 10:10 PM

The trouble is that when you look closely at the distribution of shit, you find it is not limited to things that can be explained by the gene pool or genetics.

As for the devil, get real. In the main, the last thing the devil wants people to believe is that he exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 10:02 PM

First off, God is a Puerto Rican Lesbian, in case you fellas weren't aware. Second, SHE is not all that powerful and has very little to say about what natural selection does with the gene pool. SHE is a very nice person, however and hopes for the best for all of us! There is no such thing as the devil...just bad people...

All you men who believe that God is a white, all powerful male fighting the devil like Superman and Lex Luthor... are just living in a comic book fantasy world! Why anyone would buy "Sol's" version (or Steve Shapiro's version of God for that matter,) is beyond me.

I get really chuffed when some dude tries to lay that all powerful white male shit about God, on me....

guess who, catspew?

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 09:39 PM

If there was no greater being the distribution of shit would not be as selective as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 09:38 PM

You are all assuming that there is a greater being. If you assume that then you have to live with these incongruities and try to explain them away. The people--before Monotheism--had the same beliefs. Seems beliefs change as the tides change---just more slowly.

Perhaps it is best to realize we know not what happens once we go and also what makes us what we are.

The more I read here the more I am believing that science and genetics and evolution are the answer to these questions---all else being superstion.   Albeit, superstion and faith that helps people through their lives. I envy them. Would I had such faith that it would make me feel a reason for it all.

So--Kosher Chickens, Ridding oneself of dishes, scrubbing eternally, etc; surely helps a believer and makes me just say---(Yiddish) Narishkeit.   I respect their doing it but cannot empathize in any way other than hoping for a succsesfull conclusion to the prosecution of the perpetrator of the fraud---the butcher. The Jewish version of the Sopranos. Though more a hypocrite than they.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 09:08 PM

Not quite spaw. Take a good look around and you will find that shit in this world is not evenly distributed. What you will find is that those who come through life pretty well untroubled are often the biggest shits and those that seem to get shit heaped on them by the ton are often the people you feel least deserve it.

It's a game God allows the devil to play and it doesn't take too much working out which people the devil is most interested in (they are not the ones already in his pockets).

I'm afraid knowing all this will offer no consoltation and may (if you get past screaming out what the devil would like you to say and will try to put in your mind, "this is a load of shit") wind up with you saying "but God, I (or your son) don't want to be an effing saint, please just leave me alone and give me a fair deal" but that will do no good. Your stuck in the game and all you will get given is the strength to get through.

I'm not claiming to like it or suggesting anyone should but that, I'm afraid. is how life works.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 07:54 PM

200

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 04:44 PM

SOL Says: "Some human beings are created with birth defects or Downs Syndrome. They are no less precious or no less loved than the rest of us, but you would not say that they are perfect creations. They are created by God for reasons known only to him and we can only try to guess why. There is no ironclad rule that God is obligated to create perfection each and every time as you seem to imply. He is the boss and does as he pleases."

Rabbi, I have apologized for any ridicule perceived from my early posts to this thread, but that statement above of yours is over the top. If I believed in a God of any sort it would have to be one of imperfection, compassion, and forgiveness, not some character that comes off like Henry Ford.

Your God created my son for reasons of his own and neither my son nor I nor his mother are supposed to know why? He created this imperfect human so he would have more trouble getting through life than others (but less than some of his classmates)? And that's okay huh? He's "The Boss" and he knows all AND keeps it a secret!

Say what?

Once again, I'd prefer to be having this discussion face to face but at this point.............gimmee peace.........no, not you Bruce......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 03:52 PM

I heard he killed himself?

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 02:44 PM

Sol: I think you have resolved any reservations I might have had in your note above re: God's creation of imperfect and/or deformed individuals.   It would take a faith I do not have to truly believe in such things.

    That said, I add that I respect people who can have such faith and I also think such things might help them through hard times.

    Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Little Brother
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 12:34 AM

As a member of the Monsey community I fasted yesterday. Guess what I broke my fast on. Yes, chicken.

LB

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 12:18 AM

Bill,
      Some human beings are created with birth defects or Downs Syndrome. They are no less precious or no less loved than the rest of us, but you would not say that they are perfect creations. They are created by God for reasons known only to him and we can only try to guess why. There is no ironclad rule that God is obligated to create perfection each and every time as you seem to imply. He is the boss and does as he pleases.
                                                   SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 11:51 PM

Pil/Pul (?)   Human knockoffs of designer clothes or DVDs are not akin to God's creations. If so---then he or she is fallable. The infallible God would create his image as it is---perfect. Why would a "perfect" God create and imperfect image?

I think we cannot change our beliefs---or lack of them.   So, the discussion goes on and on and on leading nowhere. Except to Kate Hepburn---I like that part.

Now if she is created in God's image I'll go for that.   

I have a new slogan---WWGS. You all have heard of WWJD---well, WWGS is more to my liking----What Would Groucho Say?

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 11:28 PM

Bill,
       Think of designer clothes being counterfieted in China. It may look the same as the original but the quality of the craftsman- ship is not the same. Ditto for a broadcast quality studio made CD vs. an illegal copy on a cheap computer. In the same image ? Yes. Perfection ? Definitely not. And remember, God can do whatever he wants. He does not always have to produce the expensive model. He can opt for the cheaper quality version if he so desires.

                                                 SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 08:56 PM

Well, Mick---I guess that is where we differ. If God is infallible and creates in his or her image one has to assume it is also perfect and infallible. That would be so by definition. Mirrors can distort and God--if one truly believes---cannot.

Oh well---Kate Hepburn---better thing to think of. I interviewed the author of a bio of her---and a friend of hers. Some of the personal stories are just great---she was what she seemed---feisty, honest, and as we both think---gorgeous. You might want to read his bio of her---he really brings her to life again. The story of her thoughts on Warren Beaty are unbeatable---and she gave those at age 90.l

Bill

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 07:42 PM

Bill, we may not agree on some things, but I think Kate Hepburn is the ultimate actor. And what a woman. Just as attractive in her elder years as she was in her youth.

I don't understand how you think agreeing with me proves your point on God. I am saying it is possible to create something in the image of another thing without it having the same characterics. Therefore it is entirely possible for man to have been created in the image of God without him having the same characteristics as God.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 07:40 PM

Bill, if I take a photograph of you it is certainly your image, captured, but can your photo sing, go to work for you, and drive a car? Or say you have a child and people say he's "the spitting image" of your great granddad. Does that mean he'll BE your granddad? I think that is the point Mick is trying to make about the distinction between an original and its image. An image is not a clone, and even a clone is not the same person unless you can aslo clone their every life experience.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 07:30 PM

The pope is only considered infallible when pronouncing ex cathedra (
"from the throne (of Peter)") on matters of faith & morals. Nothing else. And he sorta has to say up front "infallible pronouncement coming, heads up..."

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 07:17 PM

Mick: Exactly correct. The Corvette would act like a Corvette and Kate H.---would be in her prime (wish I knew her then--or ever---you picked my favorite actor ---physically and talentwise). As to God--well, if he is as believe perfect and not subject to error then his creation would be a perfect image of him. You really have to be a true believer to believe that. And, of course, all the faiths claim that same thing. Now we have to try to explain the different actions of all these faiths that say God created man---and by inference---THEM.

    I am getting a big kick out of the Pope. Supposedly, infallible. Yet a human being. Now apologizing for remarks that, I am sure, he actually believes or he would not have quoted this ancient writing.   

    Which just goes to show the fallacy--or hypocrisy of the faiths. The Christians had Crusades and, the Pope says, the Moslems were "murderers". As to the Jews--well, its all their fault. Ask the Inquisitors, Adolf, etc;   

    So--who's image is man created in?   A chameleon sounds more like it.


BH

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 06:42 PM

Bill, strictly from a debaters standpoint, your assertion is not true. Man can be created in the image of God without having the same characteristics. If I followed your logic, then I could have a skilled artisan create the image of, say, Kate Hepburn in her prime and it would have all the characteristics of the formidable Miss Hepburn. I could create the image of a 1956 Corvette and it would have all the performance characteristics of the real deal.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 05:29 PM

Athough man is created in the image of God, the converse is not necessarily true. Man is not perfect. God is perfect and does not have all the faults and failings that humans have.

SOL ZELLER
------------------------------------------------------------
SOL:   Not sure of the term used in Talmudic discussion---pil/pul (something like that)---the above writing is an example of that in response to my comments in making this a discussion.


       My feeling is that one cannot have it both ways. If one believes that man is created in the image of God, then, it follows he has all the characteristics of that diety. Logic then leads us to the matter of how God can be perfect and man is not. The image in the mirror is the same as what it reflects---warts and all.

       True, about wealth. As everythng else in life wealth or any other attribute by itself is not a detriment. Only how one uses it or thinks of it.


Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 04:26 PM

dick,

I found this thread to be quite informative, especially after I asked my questions.

Since I share the world with believers, I personally find it useful to know what they believe, whether I accept such beliefs or not.

If I disagreed with any of the beliefs expressed in this thread, this thread would be the last place I'd debate the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 02:30 PM

Song from the late fifties:

I told the rabbi that the chicken here was traif
bum bum bum boom
I told the rabbi that the chicken here was traif

He said the grocery store' a sickening disgrace

OO E OO ah ah wing wang walla walla bing bang
OO E OO ah ah wing wang bum bum walla walla bing bang

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 02:06 PM

After wading through this thread, I can't see what purpose it could possibly serve. Certainly, one can sympathize with the Monsey Congregation's problems; empathy is more difficult. I one is an unbeliever, the problem is nonsensical; if one believes it's a serious one.
    And I doubt that any number of postings will convert anyone to Orthodox Judaism, nor convert devout Jews to secular mechanism.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:43 PM

Bill,
       Athough man is created in the image of God, the converse is not necessarily true. Man is not perfect. God is perfect and does not have all the faults and failings that humans have.

Wealth in and of itself is not necessarily an evil thing. It is only when it becomes the primary focus in ones life to the detriment of all other things and values that are far more important does it become evil. Moshe Finkel's deed is a perfect example of this.

                                              SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:33 PM

I am in charter bus sales. That is my profession. But in my private life I am a member of the Monsey orthodox Jewish community and involved in everything that goes on there. There is no law that says that a Rabbi can not make a living by having another job. One who has a Rabbinnical ordination does not necessarily have to be a practicing clergyman to the exclusion of anything else. If non-chicken grease got on a few dinner plates you do not have to throw out the entire set; only those few dishes that came in contact with the treif substance must be discarded.
                                                SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,quimby
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 08:42 AM

Sol, I thought you were in charter bus sales!

Too bad these folks were victims of fraud but anyone who would throw out a set of limoges because some non-kosher chicken grease got on a few dinner plates, needs their head examined!

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 07:59 PM

Rabbi Sol: A very interesting analysis of the situation and the reasoning behind the acts of the butcher and also the community.

            If you are correct, and I have no reason to think you are not, living in the same county as I do, it leads me to some thoughts and observations about human nature and religiosity.

            Sad to say that greed may well be a prominent characteristic of the human condition.   Since true believers of some faiths believe that god created man to have free will then, I suppose, if he also created man in his image we can expect then that diety has those same characteristics.

            It seems that this is a characteristic in all faiths.   Judeo Christian ethic is what I am referring to above. Moslems also have--in my opinion--that failing. Think of this. Interest is not allowed in their faith. But they circumvent it with an arrangement (I do not know the proper term) so that money can be garnered by lenders for a handsome profit. Not unlike the folks in Bklyn buying McMansions in Monsey. Ah---a simple abode to worship the almighty and give thanks for such blessings.

             So what are we to make of all this---chickens aside?   I don't want to spell out what my feelings are since I will be accused of religion-baiting (for want of a better term).   Perhaps the best thing to make of all this is to appreciate the culture various religious and ethnic people have given us and try to live an ethical---and dare I add---cultured--life and hope that we live with our fellow humans in harmony.   

No Easter Bonnets, no fancy clothes on the high holy days, no mansions on various hills to impress our fellow humans, because all of the above are supposed to be repugnant to whatever diety you worship.

You may or may not enjoy the humor of Larry David and Curb Your Enthusiasm. But, he does make a point at times and the one I appreciated from his 5th season was him wanting to attend Shul---no tickets available. He goes to a scalper at the door and pays $600---only to be thrown out later because of arguing with a fellow congregant. You can translate that to any organized religion, I believe.


Bill Hahn ( who's entry into the kingdom of heaven is not guaranteed---only a final end)

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 11:09 PM

Rabbi Sol - Thanks for the explanation. I am not familiar with the area and didn't realize that the social climate was so elitist. If what you say is true, the community does need to change their ways and atone for creating such greed and corruption. Its a good reminder to those that think worldly wealth guarantees status.

Indeed, you make it sound like they deserve to be reminded to think about their lifestyle and how it effects others.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 10:47 PM

Thank you, Rabbi.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 10:26 PM

Let us now try to deal with the problem that many of you have difficulty understanding. Why must the entire community atone for eating non-kosher meat if they did so involuntarily and unknowingly ?
In order to understand this we must analyze what caused Moshe Finkel to commit this crime against both, God, as well as his fellow Jews.

Moshe Finkel was not ignorant of the law. In fact, he was a very learned man in Torah and Talmud. He was the Baal Koreh (designated public Torah reader) in his synagogue for many years. He also taught the daf yomi which is the daily Talmud class every morning. He surely knew right from wrong and what the consequences of his actions would be. Why would he do something like this ?

The answer is MONEY. It was the pure greed for the almighty dollar bill that caused him to sin. And the community around him helped to foster an atmosphere that valued money above everything else. Those of you who have visited Monsey lately could not have helped but notice a lot of new construction. Many of these new houses are McMansions which are very ostentatious. People are selling houses in the Boro Park & Flatbush sections of Brooklyn for 2 million dollars and moving to Monsey. That kind of money goes very far up here and there are some tremendous houses being built, with everyone trying to outdo his neighbor. People are making elaborate weddings and bar mitzvahs just to show off. Even the charity donations in synagogue have been a contest to see who can donate the most. The Rabbis have been reluctant to talk out against this because they like all the money that is coming in to their institutions. However, in the process, the poor man is not only ignored, but often times embarrased as well, for not having the where-with-all to donate large amounts. This is the type of climate that gives rise to the type of sin Finkel committed. That is why the entire community must undergo a catharsis to purge them of these false values and there is no better time to do so than before the High Holidays when we will all be judged as to our fate for the coming year.
                                                SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 09:06 PM

The Sabbath has just ended here in Monsey. For those of you who do not know what the term BT that the last poster used means, it is short for Baal Teshuvah. A Baal Teshuvah is a Jew who has become observant (frum) later in life as opposesd to an FFB (frum from birth), someone who was born into an observant family and remains so.

In answer to Michelle, the charity events that I mentioned were scheduled months in advance and were not in any way related to the Treife meat crisis.

In addition to the fasting and prayers decreed for tomorrow, everyone is also required to give the summ of $18 (Chai) to an orthodox Jewish charity of their choice. This must be an entirely new donation and can not be taken from funds that were previous allocated for charity.

                                                SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,blank it.
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 08:08 PM

I been frum now for 10 years. I had it with the so-called frum boro park and other frum areas of brooklyn.

I never seen such, hypercrits in all my life. They act more seculer then jewish seclur people.


Yes, I am a BT.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 05:40 PM

Its still open to interpretation.

You can believe dogmatically or you can interpret according to new information. If you get stuck on the interpretations of scholars thousands of years ago, you ignore the scholars of today. Thats a good indication that the religion is dying.

Ever notice how an apple tree produces an abundance of fruit before it dies?

I wouldn't like to see that happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 05:34 PM

Actually, even if there ARE sound scientific reasons for the Kashrut Laws, the REAL reason is that they beleive and follow them just because G-D SAID. That is all.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 05:27 PM

I guess that depends on whether you believe in a loving and forgiving God or a wrathful and vengeful God.

Those that fear God are usually those that listen to his so-called representatives, not God.

If someone belongs to a religion that punishes innocent people, I have to admit, I don't respect the leaders. I do, however, respect the community and I don't think they should have to be the scapegoat. Furthermore, I don't think God has forsaken them and they shouldn't have to be afraid that he will.

So, the short answer is that I respect the religion but not the leaders of the religion and their so-called, scholarly advice.

God's rules can be interpreted in many ways. You can take it literally or metaphorically, ie: do not cook a kid in the milk of its mother. I think that's about husbandry not what happens in the kitchen.

It would be cruel to take a nursing animal away from its mother and kill it. Far better to butcher after the kid has been weaned. Maybe it doesn't taste as good but, after all, you are left with far less hormonal stress. Its for the good of the herd and for the greater good of the tribe.

...or you can interpret it to mean don't make goat stew with milk which is just lazy thinking and has nothing to do with following religious edict.

Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 04:58 PM

While I agree with you, dianavan, are we not disrepecting others' beliefs to say so? You & I may think Pat Robertson is an asshole (and that's a lot safer than thinking some rabbis in New York are assholes, isn't it?) but I have no doubt that he (and some significant number of his followers) believe sincerely that Katrina (and 9/11, and hosts of other nasty things) happened because god was pissed off. How can we disagree without disrespecting others' religious beliefs?